"When I sit down at a painting, everything else disappears, like the noise, anxiety, the rest of the world, it just goes out the window." - Murugiah
In this episode, artist Murugiah discusses his journey from studying architecture to becoming a multidisciplinary artist.
He shares his struggles with self-doubt, the pressure to constantly improve, and the challenge of finding his authentic artistic voice. Murugiah talks about his transition from digital to physical art, his love for cinema, and how he balances commercial work with personal projects.
He also reflects on the influence of his South Asian heritage and Western upbringing on his artistic style. ~
Takeaways:
Mindful Creative: How to understand and deal with the highs and lows of creative life, career and business
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[00:00:00]
Murugiah: All you have to do is look back at the work that you've done five years ago and look at the work you've done now and measure yourself on those changes rather than the minutia of losing one job this week or that week. it's much more about what were you doing three or four years ago versus now,
and she tells me that every day or every time one of these things happen. she reacts much better than I do, if
Radim:
USBPre2-2: Welcome to mindful creative podcast. A show about understanding how to deal with the highs and lows of creative lives. My name is Ryan Martin edge and creativity changed my life by also nearly killed me. In the season inspired by my book of the same title. I am talking to some of the most celebrated figures in a creative industry. In our candid conversations, my guests share their [00:01:00] experiences and how they overcame their challenges and struggles. How they learn to grow as creatives. A creative career in a 21st century can be overwhelming. I wanted to capture these honest and transparent conversations that might help you find that guiding light in your career.
Thank you for joining me on this episode and taking the first or next step towards regaining control of your creative life. You ready?
Radim Malinic: My guest today is a multidisciplinary British Sri Lankan artist, illustrator and designer. His colorful and surreal visuals explore the macabre, bittersweet and joyful. Infused with candy coated dreams and peppered with South Asian motifs, his work encompassing film, architecture, art and design, has resonates with those who seek in kindness, authenticity, and compassion.
Our conversation touches on many topics that contemporary creators wrestle with, including rejection, self [00:02:00] doubt, and the challenge of finding their artistic voice. It's my pleasure to introduce Murugaya.
Radim: Hi Murugaya, it's my pleasure to have you on the show. How are you doing today?
Murugiah: I'm doing okay. Thank you, Adam. It's a pleasure to be on the show. Thank you so much for inviting me on.
Radim: for those
may have never heard of you. I think is unlikely. can you please introduce yourself?
Murugiah: Sure. My name is Murugiah. I'm a multidisciplinary British Sri Lankan artist, illustrator and designer, working out of my home studio in Southeast London. use a colourfully surreal visual aesthetic and I play with a bit of the macabre and bittersweet and joyful parts of my life.the style, the artwork is infused with a candy coated, dreamy, quality, [00:03:00] and it's peppered with some South Asian motifs.
part of my work is exploring my heritage, my Western upbringing, and my Eastern heritage, and the juxtaposition of those two things, and how they marry or not marry. as I go through my life. I do that through, working in illustration, print design, painting, sculpture, public art, and hopefully soon architecture.
Radim: I think whenever someone says I'm multidisciplinary, they don't come even as halfway as you do in your description of what you mean by by multidisciplinary, because sometimes we talk about ourselves of mixed media and it just means I use Photoshop and a hand drawn stuff, so I really adore the amount of output that you produce, the diversity, and you know,
Your story is not the story that's linear, like we have, our mutual friend, Boudreau is, for example, very much an illustrator from start to finish, like he, decided to do this, whereas your, [00:04:00] your background is very
Radim Malinic: non linear
Radim: And as
Radim Malinic: you said, you are,
Radim: you're growing up in a Western world
Radim Malinic: Lankan heritage.
Radim: How did that shape the early, creative pursuits in your life, being, born in South Wales and to parents from Sri Lankan heritage? How did that go?
Murugiah: there would be a mix growing up of Saturday morning cartoons, X Men and Silver Surfer and Power Rangers and whatever. Later that Saturday going to an auntie and uncle's birthday or a celebration of some kind and it being very, South Asian orientated. So a real blend from the very beginning of growing up, of, experiencing Western society and my South Asian heritage and not really being really choosing to do one of them.
It was very much parents taking you to the this thing and it's like cool we're going to be here now for the next bit. yeah, good in hindsight, good to have [00:05:00] experienced both things at the same time.
Radim Malinic: Were your parents to the Western culture? Are
Radim: are they first generation immigrants or,
Murugiah: they moved to this country in their 30s, in the Early eighties, I believe. so they were also,trying to, ingrain themselves in western society or not for that matter, and to deal with what, they had to go through in the early eighties with regards to structural racism and
people dealt with at the time during that time. My dad, was a medical professional and my mum worked from home. So they both had very different, connections to the Western society. Let's say my dad ingrained himself much more because he was talking to patients every day. My mum looked after the house and us.
So only spoke to the neighbours every now and again. So it was a very different, mix for them as well.
Radim: so would you say like the blend of cartoons
Radim Malinic: were kind of your
Radim: escapism, like the view into another world
Murugiah: so we were born and raised [00:06:00] in this country, and yes, the mixture of, whatever was popular culture at the time, cartoons, Disney movies, I grew up with the Star Wars, original Star Wars movies being re released in cinemas, Disney movies, Aladdin, The Lion King, things like that.
Yeah, so I grew up in a heavy kind of pop culture world at the time.
Radim: whenever I I think of the 80s and early 90s, it's basically like a day glow colors and just lots of noise and flashes and lightning and stuff. I believe you said once that your dad used to take you to cinema, even though he didn't exactly care about what the movie was.
Have I got it right?
Murugiah: Yeah, I think he noticed my brother and I were both really into movies and, think he encouraged that and by taking us to see as many films possible. It still comes to this day, my brother and I just went to see the new Alien movie together. it's something that we did when we were children, and it's something that continues to this day, which is something I'm very thankful for to my parents for encouraging [00:07:00] me to, to see as many movies as possible.
Ha ha
Radim: you mentioned your unusual
Radim Malinic: sort of non linear
Radim: career? What actually came up on My chat GPT profile the other
Radim Malinic: day,
Radim: said I trained as an architect, even though he couldn't give me any facts, but it says right in Malinich from architectural background. And I was like, can you tell me more about his architectural background?
And he just hallucinated for a paragraph of copy. was like, that's actually Murogaia's text because you trained as architect and this is a real story. And it actually is so fitting into this conversation. How do we go from cartoons and your dad obviously being a medical professional to use training as an architect for seven years?
Murugiah: right before that, I guess I was obsessed with drawing. As a kid, drawing from those pop culture things from as I got a bit older is getting into movies like the Terminator and I remember, drawing the Terminator [00:08:00] endoskeleton for a long time in my bedroom. So I was obsessed with art as a, as a kid.
the only subject that I was, ever succeeding at at my school was art and my art teachers encouraged me to pursue a career in the arts as well. during my final year arts, subjects at school, I was studying artists like Barbara Hepworth and Henry Moore, Roy Lichtenstein and Andy Warhol, and traditional botanical, drawings as well.
My final year in my, school art lessons was filled with studying fine artists so I asked my parents, when it was time to pick subjects for university, I said I wanted to be an artist and my parents, said no. They said maybe it's a better thing that you do something art related.
That involves a bit of engineering and maths and, something that gets you out of the house and is a nine to five job, basically. Um so at the time I didn't really have much knowledge on anything outside of, art, fine art or [00:09:00] architecture. we went with architecture basically, and that's how I ended up studying architecture for seven years.
Radim: I think that's a quite mature decision to say, I want to be an artist, I don't know if you,
Radim Malinic: ever
Radim: for example, your mom didn't speak to people maybe beyond just a few doors down, like to have that vision, I want to pursue this full time.
Radim Malinic: is
Radim: it's quite remarkable
Radim Malinic: at that
Radim: age, but I think it's the beautiful gut feeling that we have as, children, as the young adults, it's because you feel what would make you happy, but then you actually dealt the first sort of blob of rejection by your parents saying, No, because they've got your best interest at heart to say, you know what, we want you to be safe because don't decipher this, this kind of decision until a later age where We realized, you know what?
They didn't say no, because they don't want me to be happy. They said no, because they want me to be safe. this is something that takes us time to decode for so long, because you're like, that's a bit disappointing. why don't you want me to be happy? you know what? Happy doesn't pay, no [00:10:00] Tesco shop.
we have to do this. So I just feel like that was your sort of first rejection, but I think you've recovered incredibly by thinking, okay, I will do
Radim Malinic: something.
Radim: Similar to this. And I wouldn't have thought that architecture would be the next step, but you've decided to do that and you've trained for seven years.
How does it take, me about those seven years.
Murugiah: Well, my architecture tutors would tell you that I was still very art focused at university. All of my projects, all of my designs, they were unbuildable. They were very much. fine art sculptures as buildings, one of my early projects, I designed a gallery on the South Bank that had these giant periscope tubes sticking out of it.
It looked like some kind of weird alien creature and you could look through one of the periscope tubes and it would show you a view of London that didn't really exist then. Normally on that, South Bank. I was designing kind of fine art sculptures as buildings throughout my entire architecture training.
It was [00:11:00] only until we got to the third year of architecture where things had to become very real and, practical in which, I was learning more about the built environment and learning about, public realm space within housing projects and things like that. And from third year to final year.
I was designing things more practically, but still incorporating some kind of fine art background. Luckily, my final year project in my final year of architecture was a gallery in Berlin for Gerhard Richter. So it was always art related and part of your final year project, you have to produce these wonderful documents, giant books, about your project and research, and I was often credited for the way my books were presented and designed and research, and the way the work was presented on the wall during a crit situation in which the whole class would come and critique the work during a session.
So I was often credited [00:12:00] at of the projects, and. The aesthetics, but never really the construction and the way construction and design blended together, which is what architecture is, really. If you're not considering construction as part of your design, then it's sensible not do that or that career.
Yes.
Radim: I love it. I think, again, it goes to that energy that stage of our lives where you really want to reinvent the wheel or at least spin it in a different way or add it to something that has never been added to, because if you were to play it safe, right from the start.
Radim Malinic: Then you really miss out on that
Radim: of sound pit on that playground antics that, can influence your further career.
Because when you think about a commercial career of, many designers or many creatives, we really started at the messy end. like we try to do all sorts of weird things
Radim Malinic: that kind of our
Radim: of our souls. And then we find ourselves 15, 20 years [00:13:00] later, designing an annual report for a bank or something, or just doing something which is so monotonous yet necessary to.
Not for that stage of our lives because of
Radim Malinic: the other time or energy changes or,
Radim: I don't know, the dependency of little people changes in our lives. But I find it
Radim Malinic: it
Radim: interesting because it's like, it reminds me of a studio that designed the Fatboy Slim cover,
I think they were called Red Design.
And
Radim Malinic: I was like, wow, they're doing amazing things.
Radim: And then years later, you're trying to find them. And they're like, designing something for oil company or something like it was just so far removed from what they did because staying on a linear on staying on that sort of path chosen path is sometimes it's quite tricky because
Radim Malinic: grow, they have to add extra
Radim: they have extra responsibility and something that kind disappears.
So where you are as an artist now, I think that beginning where you were trying to create unbuildable things, you never know. It's a lot of averages, you know, you might be able to actually build it one day because you know more about architecture than
Radim Malinic: I do,
Radim: from what I've learned and from what I've heard, it's [00:14:00] like, When you go Zaha
Radim Malinic: Hadid,
Radim: buildings were
Radim Malinic: were
unbuildable too,
Radim: the technology actually caught up. And they were like, oh, we can make
Radim Malinic: it now.
Radim: they're like favours the prepared,
Murugiah: Yeah, I mean, there's two different trains of thought, or there's probably many trains of thought in architecture, but the school that I went to, they were interested in an architecture that blended into the surroundings. And there's a real beauty in that, things that feel like they've been there for hundreds and hundreds of years.
But are built with contemporary technologies and ways of seeing and yeah, and there's the other train of thought which is The artist as architect, which is the egocentric, I'm going to build a tall phallic object in the middle of London kind of architecture. Or I'm going to build something, one of Zaha's early projects was a fire station and that was like, had twisty turny corridors and the fireman got sick from using it, basically physically sick.
It's a different type of, architecture. And I think I was probably [00:15:00] somewhere in the middle where I wanted to build something that was still a fun, usable experience for people, but also had an element of a unique presentation, something that, presented architecture in a slightly more, fun way.
And I think it just comes from being. Someone who grew up in a, in an area in which I was different and I could pull from different places in my life, not consciously, but unconsciously, I think. so yeah, that's the kind of the world in which I was coming up in my architecture training. And, it was often met with, because of the schools I went to, I think it was often met with slight reservation,
Radim: Would you say that your approach to architecture was the
Radim Malinic: reason why,
Radim: You had
Radim Malinic: to leave
Radim: after a year of being a practicing architect
Murugiah: I don't think so. I think genuinely the reason was my disinterest in the kind of constructional side of things that I was very interested in someone's journey through a building [00:16:00] and a visitor's journey through a building, but I wasn't necessarily interested in. doing the adequate research and development around the appropriate construction type of material and how you could really experiment with that material and take it even further.
Radim: I think when you're doing that at the building scale, it just becomes too overwhelming, but Now, as a fine artist, I'm doing that all the time. I'm kind of like, what crazy materials can I use? How can I blend them together? Like,I will sit here for a year and research this one type of practice in material making before I introduce it into a project.
Murugiah: think the world of architecture, the education behind it, it puts you in the deep end. Way too early, it really does. And it expects you to be doing really crazy things, with structure and material at a building scale. And there were some people that were absolutely amazing at it. And there were some people that kind of like only got half of it.
And I was one [00:17:00] of those people. And my tutor at the end of the year was like, we really think you'd be better off. better suited at graphic design, illustration, product design, something like that, because you're like a really good designer, but you're not applying it to the full state of architecture.
Radim Malinic: I think
Radim: what seems like
Radim Malinic: an
Radim: unnecessary evil, actually it says necessary reality to building up and calculating if it's going to fall or not, because you need the right materials. It seemed that it was still the right knowledge and
Radim Malinic: skill set that
Radim: you find your artistic career, that's there.
Radim Malinic: Within a year due to stress and losing hair, and you decided to
take a year off,
Radim: did you feel when you almost divorced yourself from that environment and said, Okay, don't need this sort of pressure anymore?
Murugiah: Yeah. making the transition between architecture and whatever else I was going to do in the future, It was very obvious because my body was actually telling me to do something different. all of [00:18:00] my hair started to fall out from a very stressful environment that I was in.
clearly the job I was doing was not interesting me or not. It wasn't something that I was comfortable with. you go from being your final year architecture student, where you're designing a building your own, for an architecture practice where you're at the bottom of the, Barrel and you'll be giving the most remedial tasks and this transition was too
much.
You know, what happened here? I
went from designing this giant art gallery in Berlin to doing, tiling details for a toilet in a restaurant, it's a real shock. and then, yeah, my hair started to fall out from stress. I was in a living environment that I didn't enjoy a relationship. I coming to an end.
I think all of it came to a head where, I was willing to move on because of what was happening to me. So it wasn't too much of a, big stress. in terms of the decision, it was very much my body was like time to do something different. And I knew at the back of my mind [00:19:00] throughout from those days of being an art class student in school, I knew that I wanted to be an artist all the way through.
So how do I find my way to that?
Radim Malinic: you're describing here, I think it's quest for searching for identity because yeah, when you're thrown in a deep end and you're doing a tiling detail for a restaurant, a bathroom, it can be exciting now. It could have been exciting
years ago,
Radim: but it's a job for someone who really wants to do it.
And I
here is, that search for, identity because you switch to Being an house designer and illustrator, then you went on your own and for years and years and years you're actually still searching for the right output
Radim Malinic: for the right work because you felt that some of
Radim: times when you were working it was disingenuous by emulating other people's styles you didn't think that the work was exactly yours
Radim Malinic: of your own and I
Radim: it would be safe to say you are quite comfortable now with what you're creating and the way you're producing your works.
But again, is it a stressful environment? Because I know that you did work, which was, accepted, [00:20:00] paid, appreciated, commissioned, it was part of big
Radim Malinic: campaigns.
But
Radim: again, was that period of your life happy? Was it stressful? was it turmoil? how would you describe it?
Murugiah: Professional, life? No, because I think from when I moved from, architecture in 2013, 12, into working as a in house illustrator and designer, I was start, again, it felt like I was starting from scratch. I did. Fine artwork at school, then architecture work. And then I was moving into, freelance illustration and very quickly, I realized I needed more experience.
So I got a job as an in house illustrator and graphic designer at a greeting card company.and it was quite nice. did that for a year and then I worked as an in house graphic designer at a restaurant, for another year. And both of those jobs were good. finally did get to do the 9 to 5 as a [00:21:00] designer.
even throughout those in house jobs, I still knew I wanted to go freelance and knew I wanted to be a fine artist. And When I eventually did, a couple years later, so 2014 2015, I was just emulating other people's styles, and I mean, there's a variety in doing crowd illustrations, like a Where's Wally drawing, you know,It's directly emulating someone else's style, but it's emulating a look and a feeling that many people do.
And every time I, change styles, it happened every couple of years. I went through like a bit of an existential crisis. It was like, none of this looks like me. None of this feels like me. I know this is authentic to me,I took it very seriously and, I got very stressed out a lot of the time. I started a new relationship, around that time and my partner, who I'm still with to this day, has seen me go from Leon, which is the restaurant I worked at as a graphic designer, all the way to now.
So she's seen [00:22:00] me, working and getting, the position I am now. And she could tell you that, yeah, every year I was getting very, very stressed at myself. I think I just take this stuff too seriously.
Radim: I think it's necessary to take it seriously. I think we put ourselves under such undue pressure because if you care, you're going to do everything in your powers and in your strength abilities to actually make it happen.
Because
Radim Malinic: changing style can seem
Radim: like an
Radim Malinic: an
Radim: earth shattering event for some, some illustrators.
you've got people with their house style and because that works, they just
Radim Malinic: work in that style for
Radim: 10, 15, 20 years. And sometimes. Their endurance and persistence and, focus is admirable because,
Radim Malinic: you're describing, like reinventing your style for for four years, you're inventing or reinventing your style.
Radim: And you can sometimes think I just made this commercially viable. People want this, but I'm not happy.if you were to sell that to a builder, it'd be like, [00:23:00] what are you talking about? You've got work. This is what you do. I'm a builder. I lay breaks. This is what I do. How can you unhappy with something's working?
the overarching theme of this conversation is actually gut feeling, like following your gut feeling, following your instincts. Cause if you need that in your life. Then you have to do it in a way, and obviously it's not gonna be easy and cheap in a way.
Murugiah: Exactly. the big differences in those early years when I was developing a artistic style, what was happening was that I was developing an aesthetic and I was just looking at aesthetic. I wasn't looking at thematic. And what I do when I do talks nowadays is I talk about this thing where, there's the aesthetic style that you're influenced by.
It can be, 90s American cartoons, or it can be South Asian religious paintings or a melding of the two, but that's still aesthetic. It's more to do with thematic. What are you interested in [00:24:00] actually saying with your work? And once you figure that out, Your quote unquote style becomes incredibly authentic very quickly because you're being incredibly authentic to a personal messaging like I want to put bright, colorful things in the world because I think it makes people happy, but at the same time, I also want to say, sometimes it can be a bit messy and that's where the macabre stuff comes in.
But like those thoughts only started developing a more thematic, approach to my work. They only started to happen in 2019. So it was 2013 to 2019 of just like working out different styles, working professionally, and then realizing look, none of this is working for me because it doesn't feel true to my thematic.
approach to life. so that's when in 2019 I made the big change I'm just going to close everything down. I'm going to stop and I'm going to [00:25:00] restart with some very specific thematic and aesthetic approaches to the work. It also happened to coincide with COVID. So you know, everyone had a tough time in COVID and I did too, but at the same time.
Nobody was working, so I used it as an opportunity to just restart everything, and it was a really, really great, time for me, which is a very weird thing to say, but it was a time in which I made a new piece of work every week. I wasn't really concerned with the overarching idea. output of it. I just wanted to make something new that kind of, ran down the middle of this aesthetic approach and thematic approach.
and yeah, I did that every week for two years, basically during COVID.
Radim: you mentioned your partner being there throughout the
Radim Malinic: whole twists
Radim: and turns and changes and reinventions. How much of
Radim: stress and heaviness do we put on our partners through [00:26:00] this process? Because we know how much we put on ourselves and
Radim Malinic: we're not
Radim: always aware of how much.
heavy presence we have on others, do we?
Murugiah: I'm more aware of it now than ever because I'm still going up for things and still being rejected for things in the workplace. And, my partner she sits next to me when in the office, we work together. So she sees me. She sees my kind of like mood change and she sees my whole personality change because I'm putting way too much on, projects and these things that, ultimately should be something very enjoyable and fun.
And yeah, so I, do know that, partner is a saint because she reacts in the most caring, loving way. And, the first thing she tells me, she grounds me immediately because the first thing she tells me is look at how far you've come for, I've known you for so long. Like I've seen what you did before and I've seen what you're doing now.
Like All you have to do is [00:27:00] look back at the work that you've done five years ago and look at the work you've done now and measure yourself on those changes rather than the minutia of losing one job this week or that week. it's much more about what were you doing three or four years ago versus now,
and she tells me that every day or every time one of these things happen. she reacts much better than I do, if
Radim: when the rejection happens, which it's
Radim Malinic: a parcel of what
Radim: do, because if you were to work for a
Radim Malinic: a hundred pounds per project,
Radim: you could be working all day, every day with hundreds of people. all the time. Whereas
Radim Malinic: on our journey,
where we go as designers, artists, creatives, authors,
Radim: always think of it like the bigger projects is like finding a life partner.
Radim Malinic: if
looking for one night stand, it's quite easy, right? But that process of filtering out the good stuff, you know, like filtering out the good things, it's not always going to happen. And if you're on a winning streak. feel good about yourself.
Radim: Everything's working. And you [00:28:00] think this is, that momentum needs to carry on. Whereas if someone derails it so hard that you're thinking, wait a minute, things are only going to get better. And all of a sudden it feels like you're having to reset, like a restart. What do I do here? How do you metabolize?
I mean, you mentioned it was your partner is very helpful in the present and the sane. And rightfully, I think she wants you to run an audit of your work and your life so far in those situations, remind yourself of the good things that you've created, because it's just an opportunity.
Radim Malinic: there's a quote that, a kind of analogy I've made up on this podcast. It's like we come to the train station, we can't always expect the train to be there because if you turn up in the wrong time, the opportunity, sometimes it just waits for you. At some time.
So
when you being reminded look back at your work, do you celebrate a progress?
Radim: Does it a way to metabolize rejection or how do you do it?
Murugiah: the moment, probably not because I haven't [00:29:00] dealt with some issues, some personal mental health issues, I think, revolving around, being more present and being more, appreciating, certain things in life. I think I need to work on some of that before I can genuinely feel good about things I've done in the past.
I've got to be honest with you because I know that I've done some amazing projects in the past, but I'm still yet to fully appreciate them. And that has a lot more to do with my personal mental health than it has anything else. last year I did a branding project for Green Man Festival, and I branded the entire festival.
And throughout the history of that festival, an artist has been given like free reign to do whatever they want with the, branding and the, I had so many illustrators messaging me saying, this is one of the best projects ever. you must be so thrilled. You must be so thrilled.
and all I could really think about was how stressful the [00:30:00] project was and how certain things weren't right about it and, don't think I've developed the full kind of like personal attributes to actually appreciate some of this stuff. And If people have listened to me talk on podcasts in the past, they will know that struggle has been there for quite a long time and I haven't done anything about it yet.
but yeah, long answer your question. no, I actually can't look back yet and appreciate things, which sucks.
Radim: it's a great answer. I I that many can learn from, because as you just said,Brandon Greenman Festival is someone's dream project. like we see these things, the shiny things out there thinking, I must be sunshine and ice cream.
It must be so easy. Youit must
Radim Malinic: be
Radim: this is the best thing ever. But being behind the, what I call the enemy lines, it's never easy.
it looks good. It
Radim Malinic: doesn't mean it
Radim: is easy. because from personal experience,
Radim Malinic: the bigger the projects by.
Radim: The bigger the headache and the the bigger the stakes,
Radim Malinic: obviously the
Radim: the reward, but when something messes up, obviously you have [00:31:00] to metabolize
Radim Malinic: it.
Radim: you just said, you're still not ready for it. It's it's still even, being in your career for nearly 11 years as a, creator, it still gets tough.
And. I think there is a breakthrough around 20 year career, when you let go and allow yourself to be present because would you say is the main aspect of you not being able to look back? it because you keep going? Is it because you're striving or because you haven't had time to do this?
And my point is, You said that in Covid you had time to reset and I think was a great reset for many people that I've had on this series. Like we all changed what we did and how we did it and who we did it with during Covid. So would you need another covid to actually help you to look back or another big reset?
Radim Malinic: So actually said to appreciate
it,
Murugiah: I'm not so sure it is a time situation. I think COVID helped me specifically with its time [00:32:00] to design new things and,within this new approach to my work. But. Now, day to day, I'm doing that on every project I do,whatever something comes in, I'm like, okay, and I tell myself like, okay, how do I do this differently to what I did before?
And how do I develop this further? So I'm just doing that naturally. think my inability to look back and appreciate things comes from growing up and, being told, this isn't good enough. basically. it's a very East Asian, South Asian thing, I think. or just a hard parent I grew up in a place where, traditional educational methods.
were rewarded and creativity wasn't rewarded as much. And,if I did well on a test, an English test or a math test, it would be well done. But if art teacher tells my parents at parents evening, like he's really good, it would never be appreciated. And I think I've [00:33:00] just never let go of that.
So that's another, I have to open up with a future therapist, in nothing
Radim Malinic: I
Murugiah: good enough. that's really how I think, like I say, looking back at Green Man, it was me nitpicking rather than being like, just being appreciative of this amazing thing.
And I think that happens throughout projects. I'm getting a little bit better of it. I'm realizing the vibe is still there of the project, try not to focus on the negative, try to focus on the positive aspects of the projects, but we're so easily, I don't know about you, but I feel like I'm so easily drawn to Oh, this bit of it was shit, or that bit of it was shit, don't look at its downfalls. I don't look at its like nitpicks. I'm like, how amazing was Alien Romulus? Even though it like rehashed everything from the Alien franchise, it was still a fun ride and enjoyable experience. So yeah, I need to try and be a bit more like that with my actual work as well.
Radim: I can tell you that things not being enough is not necessarily, exclusive to South [00:34:00] Asian, upbringing because originally from Eastern Europe and,
nothing was good enough,
Radim Malinic: even though A grades
Radim: everything was in place again, if you dip below the high standards without anyone's help,
Radim Malinic: you were judged and I can very much associate with what you just said about, how your career is driven and how we take it into adult and professional life because I think that's the undue pressure that you put on yourself because even though the
parental aspects not there anymore.
Radim: you carry that with yourself because it's an unresolved issue. It's
Radim Malinic: an unresolved attitude.
Radim: And the reason why most people work, endless hours and work and work and work, because there is no defined end. there's no marks, even though you get paid for work, even though the career is working, you still feel like you should be doing more.
You still feel
you almost preempting that feedback that's coming from yourself. So the only person that's. put in that pressure, they're not good enough. It's just you. It's us. that's how we do it. and I had to work through [00:35:00] it for many different therapy sessions to work out why was I working 18 hours a day?
Why was I still adding more? And literally even the most mundane, nonsensical campaign. Sorry.
Radim Malinic: That sounds a
Radim: bit harsh,
Radim Malinic: but
Radim: you work on Bacardi Breezer launch for the Canadian market, that's barely going to be in the V& A as the campaign of the century. But I was working at like a hundred meter Olympic race, and I was giving it my all thinking this has to be the best piece of work I've ever created. gave a shit. They just wanted it to be done.
no one said
Hey, let's win awards for this. Like people just said, let's do it right. And I think that was the element of not being in the present world, because not only I was judging myself, but with the advent of social media, more people showed up online, beyond websites,
Radim Malinic: it was a lot faster
Radim: of everyone's work.
And all of
Radim Malinic: a sudden, you're
Radim: not only with yourself, you're competing with everybody else because you try to find your space in the world.
Murugiah: very true. Very true. And I have to caveat like I don't, any ill [00:36:00] will towards my upbringing or my parents. They were just part of a society which exists, has always existed, in which do your best, essentially. Better is better, basically. You have to be the best you can be. And it's no one is out there being like, you're okay.
You're good at what you do. just be human. You know, you're on this planet for a very limited amount of time. Just enjoy your life. don't have to be the greatest and the best thing out there. It's, actually and, organizations are built around compare and despair, right?
Look at your neighbor, look at their car, look at how nice their car is. You should have a car like that. it's very much built around that. And, yeah, so we're just in a society in which. Our work is ingrained in commercialism, so it's a tough one. That's why I've always wanted to be an artist, because with fine art you can express ideas and put out personal ideas that, where you're sharing a personal trait with somebody and you can talk about something very [00:37:00] specific.
Radim: But fine art also has come up in commodified as well, Would you mention about your parents? Again, I think it could be a protection. It could be the way of looking after you, like the way they wanted you to be something different than an artist, because they want you to be, fat and paid.
Radim Malinic: And maybe
Radim: the upbringing is I want you to be good enough for what's to come, like just.
that undue pressure could have been coming from their unresolved issues. I think
Radim Malinic: there is a whole thing that,
Radim: societal, generational, that there's a lot to unpack. But your kind of message
Radim Malinic: here is
Radim: standing in the present moment is sometimes proving quite tricky. And I know that you switched from solely digital work with
Radim Malinic: extra monitors and
Radim: playing in the background to actually painting a lot more, to actually putting, switching everything off and isolating yourself and giving your work, space and time. How did you find that transition?
you also said you've been doing this because of the rise of generative [00:38:00] AI, because you wanted
Radim Malinic: to actually retain the
Radim: aspect of
Radim Malinic: your work that couldn't be done easily
Radim: machine taught, machine learned.
So
Radim Malinic: how that switch from years and years of trying to find your way to finding yourself now in a space where
Radim: you've got your work, you've got your style, and also you've got your space
Radim Malinic: to
Radim: enjoy it.
So that work and presence, how does it benefit your career?
Murugiah: I guess during the beginning when I was making the digital work and during COVID, I was always trying to pick projects where a physical item would be the end product of the project, a screen printed film poster, for example, or a magazine cover, something that was a piece of clothing, something that was very physical, the tangible that one could hold and collect.
so the natural kind of progression from that is making things tangibly and physically like paintings and sculptures. and I knew I always wanted to get into [00:39:00] making things more physical. during the making of the digital products, You know, staring at a screen all day, sitting down, it wasn't really a healthy way to work.
partly my reasoning for wanting to make a portion of my work physically was to be able to turn off all the screens, like you say, and paint, paint something. And it really brought me back to being in that art room class at school where there weren't any computers. This was the early 2000s, so there weren't any computers around, or they were, but they were in the back room.
we were all just sat around a table drawing together, you know, and listening to music,and I think that's what now, when I make my paintings, that's what I do. so yeah, that was the real reason. It happened to coincide with The rise of generative AI and styles being replicated or poorly replicated by AI. And,
yeah, AI can't really [00:40:00] replicate a physical brushstroke where you can see the kind of bubbles of the paint on a canvas or a painting. It can't represent a public art sculpture or the experience of looking at a sculpture at the Young V& A, which is something I did recently with friends.
it can't replicate that. the two things coincided basically. I seem to have this again, you know, COVID coinciding with doing some new work and then the rise of AI coinciding with wanting to make things physically. finally getting to a place some of the most recent projects been producing tangible paintings.
for these commercial projects, and sculptures, so I think it's starting to help me and, when I sit down at a painting, everything else disappears, like the noise, anxiety, the rest of the world, it just goes out the window, so I can just be much more present when making physical work.
Radim: One would say you're putting yourself in an absolutely perfect condition [00:41:00] for achieving flow states. it's actually the space, making sure that you know what your task
Radim Malinic: is,
Radim: the right stuff, ingredients around yourself. That's where, you can actually achieve this.
Because. We almost dream about flow states. Like we think Oh, I really want to be in a state of flow, but what are you doing? are you ready for it? you do your prep?
Radim Malinic: Did you think about what
Radim: going to make? No, no,
Radim Malinic: no.
Radim: I need to write a couple of emails in between this and in between that.
Radim Malinic: So I think what you're doing for the enjoyment of your work and for the output and for your mental health is actually absolutely necessary. And I've been very fruitful in achieving this because what I love
is this sort of mixture of elements that you picked
up
your way, so like cartoons, movies, architecture, trying to make unbuildable and that kind of stuff, it all really manifests itself in where you are now, because you mentioned you wanted to create tangible outputs, so you've got your cartoons, you've got your movies, you've got all of this together, and then you've been making film posters for quite a while. [00:42:00]
Radim: And you're someone that I've never known who goes to cinema,
Radim Malinic: is it
Radim: or four times a week?
Murugiah: Sometimes I go three or four times a week, it's been more like once a week nowadays, but I'm looking to get the numbers back up to three or four times a week. it's another experience that I've enjoyed as a child and enjoy to this day of You disappear into someone else's world and you kind ofenjoy a movie. And again, you have to turn your phone off. You have to adhere to the rules of the cinema and, you do disappear into someone else's world for a few hours. So it's one of the reasons I enjoy movies so much.
Radim: It does
Radim Malinic: sound like, it does sound like you're trying to recreate that
Radim: early 2000s, mid 90s, where we were just in that moment, in the present moment. when you describe, you were listening to music and drawing in a class because the computers were in the back of the class, you're trying to recreate it.
And that's the good stuff because God knows what we've been trying to do, understand the technology, AI, our phones, our technology, like
Radim Malinic: the hyper connected world,
[00:43:00] the
Radim: knowledge and the presence of other people's opinions that normally you would hear in the
Radim Malinic: the back
Radim: a pub, like nowadays pumped through Twitter or X or whatever it's called these days, it's just, I think just for us to understand everything, whilst we're trying to create art
Radim Malinic: and
Radim: of ourselves can be so confusing because all of a sudden, We are distracted, so distracted. So when you sit in a cinema in your own world, escapism,
Radim Malinic: enjoying it, I know that a lot of movies can evoke feelings
Radim: high emotion. And when I met you in person, I instilled the idea that you need to do a particular project, which I think is going to be an absolute hit, because it, hits hard the connection because it puts together everything you've created so far and I've, and I think it's got a beautiful narrative.
So not going to spoil the surprise, but what did I tell you to do?
Murugiah: you told me to put a book together. I mentioned, movies that make me cry, I think, right? And, you should put this book [00:44:00] together basically. And what that form takes is probably something that I haven't figured out yet, because part of my work recently in film poster design has been a real, learning curve of representing a film.
in illustrated form while also maintaining a unique aesthetic or, an illustrative quality that belongs in my personal work. And sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. and it's been a real experimentation there. So part of figuring that out is whether I even would, want to do it, I used to go to a movie and at the end of the movie, I'd be like, cool, what, how could I design a film poster for that movie and, sell it to a client that I'm really into,
nowadays I watch the movie and I'm like, cool, how can I evoke the feeling that I watched in that movie in the form of a personal painting using my own characters in my own world? [00:45:00] So maybe it could be related to, it could be a book in which You know, you show the still from the movie, but then you show the personal painting that you've created a result of it, rather than being too literal in the sense that I'm just going to represent this movie in illustrated form do a design something very closely linked to the film.
It could be something more orientated where I'm achieving more of my interest in personal painting while linking it back to something very commercial like a movie.
Radim: I'm sorry for putting you on the spot with this because
Radim Malinic: I am not a big film buff. I used
Radim: watch cool movies before I, got in a relationship and I've been watching a lot of rom coms on Fridays, watch
Radim Malinic: things
Radim: are not necessarily highbrow anymore all the time, I'm just trying to find my own time, between
Radim Malinic: kids watching Bluey and Number Blocks and
Radim: stuff. So once upon a time it was all movies about drugs and crazy people
Radim Malinic: like Buffalo
Radim: 66, and Gridlock with Tim Roth [00:46:00] and Tupac. And it was all about like mad characters. Like I think Vincent Gallo is a genius.
And I think what you described to me at, when I met you,
Radim Malinic: having lunch with
Radim: it was like, there is so much connection because not only are you opening up your point of view, where, how you see the movie and what you found is because you might find that, something that makes me cry about the same movie is a totally different part, and I think you're opening up this sort of collective understanding of actually how we react to, how we respond to things, like how our life journeys about, let's say, life is not good enough, how do we see the characters that are portraying.
Radim Malinic: I think there's a
Radim: wonderful concept in this. it's how it makes us feel,
So I just felt like there is a project which I think can be, so ubiquitous and so widely appreciated because everyone watches movies and everyone wants to escape, and you know what?
Everybody cries, everybody breaks the same. this stuff, vulnerabilities, this is something that just, when I heard it, I was like, got to make it happen.
Murugiah: [00:47:00] Yeah, well, exactly. It depends
how much permission you're actually able to get with a book idea, right? If you work with a publisher who's like, yeah, we're willing to call these studios up and get the use of a still in a book.
you know, I work with, um,
Little White Lies a lot and I've seen some of their books and talking to the team there where they've been like this was a very difficult book to get out because of this reason and this reason.
Whereas if you do an illustration, yes, it obviously is an artistic interpretation. But, yeah, at the moment, I might be too interested in wanting to pursue personal art in general. Because I. I've been going to movies recently and just enjoying them rather than thinking about a commercial way I can kind of like link my work to it.
at the moment I'm preferring to focus on personal art and using films as a kind of influencer. in a non direct way, rather than creating this very specific book idea. But I'm sure later down the line when I [00:48:00] have much more of a broader approach and a wider understanding of what my work is doing, I can reintroduce this idea.
in terms of books, I'd like to put out an art book. I think I've done, working since 2019 on such a varied set of projects. And, I've got paintings and I've got and sketches and things and posters and they all link and there's all, a nice way of linking everything together.
So the moment, the focus is trying to find a of exhibition opportunities and maybe producing a book as a result of those exhibitions. That would be a fun. long project to be working on.
If there's a budding illustrator listening to this and he's a fan of yours and he's just saying, I'm focusing on personal projects. They might be thinking,
Radim Malinic: How do you support yourself?
Murugiah: are you still doing what it pays and you put in more of your headspace into the personal project?
Radim: So how do you balance it out? Because I like toget some clarity on this for those who might be [00:49:00] thinking, how is he doing it
Murugiah: I am not very good at running a commercially driven business that doesn't involve my work. So I can't, design,decks, for example, for someone an entirely different style and get paid to do it as a regular gig. Everything I have to do to make money has to feed into what I'm working on at the moment.
And if that interest is in personal work, then whatever commercial opportunity I have, I have to find a way to feed my personal interest into that job. as a result, you end up getting paid for the things that you love doing, or that you want to explore personally anyway. So to answer your question, I am trying to do a one for me, one for them situation in which.
I'll do a magazine cover for Deadpool and Wolverine, for example, but I'll have them linking arms and being best friends because it's something that I'm [00:50:00] interested in exploring within that particular world. or I'll do a film poster that is much more linked to something I want to explore creatively or stylistically.
most recently, I did a Dune Part 2 poster for an American company called Mutant, in which I was more interested in focusing on composition and how could I creatively compose elements from the film in a more unique way. So I'm doing it, in real time, out in the open, basically, whatever job comes in.
Commercially, I ask myself, how could I feed my personal interests into this job? currently working on a book publishing project in which. I requested that every, piece that I make is going to be a painting, a physical painting. and then, after that I said, am I able to exhibit these paintings or, put them in part of an exhibition and then sell the original [00:51:00] works?
And they were like, yep, that all sounds good. There's two interests right there. I'm interested in making more personal paintings. I am interested in, seeing if I could explore IP driven work in a more unique style, in a more unique way. that is something that I'm very happy to do. And then in the evenings, I'm making my personal paintings, after hours, after 6pm and before 9am, I'm working on a personal painting.
And the personal work is very much part of this long project in which Eventually the, your hobby becomes your job, right? So my current hobby is making personal paintings of how I'm feeling and Eventually, however many years down the line, that will become the job. I'll be exhibiting paintings on an ongoing basis, and I'll be exhibiting sculptures on an ongoing basis that are purely personally driven.
And the amount of commercial work that happens will reduce to two or three a year. At the moment it's three or four a year [00:52:00] already, so I'm already trying to reduce the amount of commercially driven work that's happening and leaning more into how can I explore this personally. so that's the answer.
it's do it both at the same time.
Radim Malinic: thank
Radim: for clarifying this because can sometimes be misunderstood.
I really like your driven answer. this is how I'm doing it. I want to see myself in this
Radim Malinic: work and
Radim: following my gut feeling again project something to the world that makes me happy.
So it
Radim Malinic: it is good enough. And I celebrate
Radim: for that because I think that's quite a big chunk of emotional investment and expenditure to say, I'm
Radim Malinic: going to pursue this
Radim: to be emotionally happy, to be, satisfied inside. And it brings me back to when you asked your parents to be an artist and they said no. Whereas, years later, here you are, you've got big plans and you're pursuing exactly what you wanted to do, you know,those years ago.
Radim Malinic: happy with where You find yourself
Radim: and it's always a journey and there's always [00:53:00] more to learn and there's always more to understand about ourselves and the work and the mediums and the public who sees it and doing a bit of rejection, having that creative endurance, you know, how it created your career that you've got today.
Radim Malinic: So I
Radim: I
Radim Malinic: really thank you for
Radim: sharing. all of this information with me because it's something I wanted to know because I've known about your work and
Radim Malinic: we've exchanged a few
Radim: here and there
Radim Malinic: there
Radim: but to having that view into your world I think is invaluable
Radim Malinic: for those
Radim: might be struggling with feelings of and you know thinking that their work's not good enough or their career's not going anywhere or they might have a fear of reinventing themselves so they might be
Radim Malinic: feeling like they're a fraud because they're emulating someone on
Radim: journey
Radim Malinic: of learning so done Amazing work.
Radim: I think your career is blossoming and I'm really excited where the next 10 years or 20 years are going to take you because I think I need
Radim Malinic: an original Murugai in my house one day soon.
Radim: So thank you
so
much
Murugiah: you. Thank you so much, Ryan. Honestly, it's been a pleasure talking [00:54:00] to you. And almost like a bit of a therapy session myself. Every time I do one of these, I just let myself go and be like, here's all the problems I'm going through. I'd love to listen back to all of the interviews I've done and see if there's a continuous thread and see if I could fix things.
But, yeah, just a kind of final thought on anyone who's listening who's interested in, transitioning their work or changing their approach to things or, even making a small change to what they do. always, found that looking into oneself at one's personal, interests in life and finding ways of representing those interests in whatever you do, I think bears more fruitful work at the end of the day.
It bears more work which you can talk more authentically about. So yeah, there's any advice, that would be it. It would be find a kind of personal way in to whatever you do.
Radim: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think the
Radim Malinic: need [00:55:00] to vocalize how we feel about our work and what
Radim: what we're doing, it actually unlocks more opportunities than spending an extra seven hours trying to redraw a character that doesn't work.
Radim Malinic: work
Radim: yeah, you're right. These conversations can be like a therapy sessions, but you realize that You're not alone in these problems.
And obviously we all feel very much alike. And when we come to hard wall, hard stop, and a roadblock, we feel like there's no other way out. And we feel like we're the only people feeling that way. So it's great to hear from people like yourself to display that we are very much the same people.
So very much for your time today.
Murugiah: Thank you. Thanks.
USBPre2-7: I thank you for listening to this episode of mindful creative podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions, or even suggestions. So please get in touch via the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, write and manage editing. An [00:56:00] audio production was massively done by Neil McKay from 7 million bikes podcast. And the theme music was written and produced by Jack James. Thank you.
And I hope to see you on the next episode.
©2023 Radim Malinic. All rights reserved. Made with ❤️ in London by Brand Nu Studio.