"I believe we can be channels and vessels for those ideas that are supposed to be coming through us." - Matt Hart

Matt Hart shares his journey from New Zealand forest ranger to global innovation consultant, discussing his approach to unlocking creativity in organizations and individuals through his Better Ideas Faster (Biff) methodology. He explores the intersection of business innovation, personal creativity, and mindful practices while addressing modern challenges in leadership and organizational change.

Key Takeaways:

• Traditional brainstorming is ineffective; true innovation requires a structured yet flexible process
• Everyone has innate creativity, but most people lose confidence in it over time
• Successful innovation comes from understanding the right problem before seeking solutions
• Meditation and mindfulness practices can enhance creative thinking and idea generation
• AI should be viewed as a tool to augment human creativity, not replace it
• Organizations need to create safe spaces for creativity rather than demanding instant solutions
• Innovation requires both zero-to-one breakthrough thinking and one-to-thousand optimization
• Leaders often feel isolated; they need trusted partners to drive organizational change
• Environmental and social challenges present opportunities for meaningful innovation
• The future of work will increasingly value human creativity and emotional intelligence

Mindful Creative: How to understand and deal with the highs and lows of creative life, career and business

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Matt Hart: But I had this line that said, look, we can use the process of ideation. We can understand process and we can use the desire to innovate a better idea.

 and use that as a touchstone to have people reconnect with their innate creativity through an experience of doing it. So give them skills, but more give them the experience that they can be part of this. And as we do multiple projects and run those processes, we can look to capture that as a way of working.​

USBPre2-2: Welcome to mindful creative podcast. A show about understanding how to deal with the highs and lows of creative lives. My name is Ryan Martin edge and creativity changed my life by also nearly killed me. In the season inspired by my book of the same title. I am talking to some of the most [00:01:00] celebrated figures in a creative industry. In our candid conversations, my guests share their experiences and how they overcame their challenges and struggles. How they learn to grow as creatives. A creative career in a 21st century can be overwhelming. I wanted to capture these honest and transparent conversations that might help you find that guiding light in your career. 

Thank you for joining me on this episode and taking the first or next step towards regaining control of your creative life. You ready? 

Radim Malinic: My guest today has spent 20 plus years sparking creativity in world leading organizations. He unlocks business and brand performance for clients and base forward his experience to nurture the global problem solvers of tomorrow. Leading a band of outer minded thinkers pursuing an empathetic approach to brand and fan innovations using agile methods that [00:02:00] combine human creativity with cutting edge data science.

In our conversation, we explore his journey from being a forest ranger to global innovator with topics of business innovation, personal creativity, mindful practices, and addressing modern challenges in leadership and change. It's my pleasure to introduce Matt Hart.

 nice to have you on the show. How are you doing? 

Matt Hart: Oh, it's fantastic to be here. Thank you, Adam. Yeah, I'm doing good. you're the top of the world and I'm down the bottom of the world, This is how we roll now, right? You are, absolutely. 

 So for those people who may have never heard of you, can you please introduce yourself, who you are and what you do? 

sure. Yeah. my name's Matt Hart,founder of something called Better Ideas Faster, it's a bit of an oxymoron and that actually the real value is slower, more considered.

but, yeah, husband, father, uncle, brother, et cetera. and, 25 years in the world from London doing global innovation, becoming an innovator, then, doing global [00:03:00] innovation. And in COVID, we made the jump back down here with our couple of kids to give them an experience of, New Zealand life.

and at some point we'll be back up there. 

Radim Malinic: so I want to know, how does one become an innovator? How do you do that? What's your background,

Matt Hart: the first thing I always say in these sort of things is, innovators aren't born, they're made. it's my belief in a lot of my work is that everyone has some kind of value to add to innovation.

My own story, of course, I didn't know anything about that. Never heard that word. said if you'd asked me in my late teens whether I was a creative person or a creative human, I would have said no, no I'm not, I didn't have that confidence and that's the truth. That's one of the things that really lights me up.

 I was pretty unconventional. didn't think I was bright enough to go to university. Back in my day at school, you were either on your way to a professional career, standard lawyer, doctor, etc. Or you went and did trades, plumbers, carpenters. I knew I fell in the middle and I just, one of my driving things.

I had no idea. I didn't have, I didn't know what I was going to do. I [00:04:00] I'd never heard anything about Purpose or North Stars or anything like that. I was just rummaging around and, actually, but I loved the environment, I'm from New Zealand, et cetera. And so I became a forest ranger.

And so I often say my story is one from going from being a forest ranger to becoming a global innovator and then trying to bring those two worlds together in terms of environmental care, global care, with value add. ideas and creativity and innovation. Anyway, through my 20s I bounced around, we could talk about that, but long story short is I bounced around lots of different things.

And I summarise that by, I was looking for something to do and a reason to do it. I had that inner drive that there must be something out there for me where I could really believe in it and connect with it and become great at it. And, ended up in London, about 26, 27. and again, a long story short and lots of luck.

and we can talk about that. Do you create your own luck or does it just fall to you? I ended up in an innovation agency. So I had no idea that, you could have a job having ideas and [00:05:00] supporting people's creativity and growth. we can talk about the story through that agency, but that's where I found myself.

they said to me that I had, to prove myself. I was new for them. Nothing in my, what I had done said that I could go and do this job. one of the founders took a bet on me and I had to prove myself in what was called inventing. They called it inventing. So you were working mainly with FMCG clients, fast moving consumer goods, brands.

You were doing innovation work. Mostly we were a brainstorming company.test and develop concepts. anyway, I found my feet. I did those six months. He says, stay here. But I got really interested in people, so I moved to a slightly different path. I proved myself and that Got me going.

Radim Malinic: How does a forest ranger decide to go to London? End up in an innovation agency?

Matt Hart: the quick story is I was living all around the country doing this, guess it was called New Zealand Forest Service. It was an internship. Bounced all around. I was either supposed to become an actual forest range of managing, natural or commercial forestry in New [00:06:00] Zealand.

But all of my mates had gone to university. And so whilst I was moving around these jobs, I went and saw them. And I had such an amazing time. I went, this is where I've got to be. So I said to the foresters, can I go and study? And,they said no. So I said, I'm going to go anyway. And I ended up doing at university.

I found my way into, I was a surfer. I really enjoyed the ocean. So I thought, I'll become a marine scientist so I can keep surfing with my job. So I did that. as it relates to my story and what I did was that scientific method. Hypothesis, exploration, discovery. That's what underpins innovation, essentially.

So I really, my brain really liked that way of looking problems, opportunities, et cetera. so did that science degree. I didn't become a marine scientist. I then just through those 20s of being very, let's say, peripatetic of I did design, I did film. I talk about doing a year in a job and then moving on to the next thing.

And so I, hustled and learnt to do, learnt something, traded it forward, said that's not it, I'll go and do something else, that's not it. What I [00:07:00] didn't realise was that I was baking in those early skills of insight, observation, have an idea, try it, and it doesn't really fit with me but I'll take all of that experience forward do it again.

I think that's what they saw in me when I had these early freelance jobs in London. I had a lot of family in London. So I'm from a big family. A lot of them had traveled. and I'd come to the end of what I was doing here in New Zealand either set my own thing up or get out in the world.

I was surfing, mountain biking, really enjoying what New Zealand offers. And all my other mates had done their OE, their two years in London and come back. So when it came time for me to go, it was a one way ticket. 

Radim Malinic: What an amazing story. I 

So with your FOCG, with your innovation agency, you are thrown with your Myriad of skills and experiences in this melting pot. I'm sure that in your age of 25, 26, the dreaded imposter syndrome wasn't really exactly your thing, was it? Because if I could speak for myself, which I'll keep to minimum, is that when you really [00:08:00] are focused on the work, you don't doubt yourself.

Like you've got a task, go from A to B or A to Z and find your little bumps in the road and just obstacles and basically you need to do it and it doesn't even matter how good you do it because you are focused on actually finishing this, like good is better than perfection, and let's get this done.

So how did you feel in that role where, you've run out of money, there was no surfing, you were in London and you were looking after FMCG clients.

Matt Hart: I don't know if I'd have called it imposter syndrome, I was definitely blagging it, and Kiwis back then, both, there was a bit of cultural equity that we were known to be innate problem solvers, give it a go, we had permission in a culture like London, spoke with a flat accent and swallowed your vowels and so you weren't there was no sort of class thing there.

So you were liberated to just give things a go. And I got very lucky in terms of I mean, I can tell you so many stories that broke for me. And because I was naive, right? And that's a lot about the innovation. You need to, not know, right? When you start a project. It's [00:09:00] all about the ignorance and not knowing.

And that's how I've ended up, bouncing around a really broad, diverse set of organisations. But, for instance, I'd heard about a marketing consultancy, and I love the idea of trying to get into brands. So I sent in a CV, and they just denied me, right? I think it was just on early email, whatever it was.

Maybe it was a mobile. They said, you've got no experience. And I was so affronted that as a naive Kiwi washing up in London, they didn't even want to meet and have a coffee and a chat. Not even that I'd get a job or could get a job, but it was like, hang on, you haven't even met me. How can you, so I rung them up and I got the boss on the phone and I said to her, I'm really surprised that you don't even want to meet, you're so naïve you don't even want to meet so that we could talk about what might be possible, and she was so taken aback, she goes you better come in, can you come in this afternoon?

So I went in the afternoon, and it was a whole, thing anyway, I left with a job. That afternoon, in a place called, I don't know if you remember, there was an early supermarket chain called Safeway. I didn't know anything about grocery, or safe chain, or marketing, [00:10:00] I didn't know anything about marketing.

But I had to go there, and I did a job, and it was freelance, and it was two weeks, and I earned some money, and suddenly you're on their books, and you do a job, and they sort you out the next day. ended up in Ray Ban of all places, bouncing around these different companies. and this is how the connection made.

There was, one of the senior sales VPs there. we eventually got bought by L'Exotica and she said, listen, you're raw, but I want to connect you with a friend of mine who's got an innovation agency. And I met him and we worked together. We more, it was less about the skills and what I had done.

We more had a spiritual connection, a soulful connection about the world, about what ideas meant in the world, about potentials, possibilities. And he's the one who brought me in and backed me and said to his partners, I really want this guy to come in and, but you're going to have to prove yourself. 

Radim Malinic: I love your point about picking up the phone and say what do you mean?

Because when you think about it, we, I think we've moved on in a good way that you don't necessarily need a degree to do the job and necessarily need a CV. I think CV, I think should be just like a, [00:11:00] like a calling card, an expanded ID because. most of the CVs that you see these days, I'm really sorry, but I don't really give a shit that you worked somewhere for this, for two weeks and you did because everyone's bigging themselves up, like on a CV, everyone's a genius.

you know what? Show me your work. are you a person? Are you, no. Where do you live? and show me actually, what do you want to change in the world? Whereas I think the old world of CVs, it's just I'm generalizing, but. Everyone's lying. Everyone's bigging themselves up and you got a pile of paper that's just okay, as you said, like being seen can change everything.

And I can always vouch and have a perfect testament for people who work in my company that it's the ones who never went away looking for a job that didn't exist. Those ones got a job because they actually proved that they really wanted it because it's easy just to carpet bomb the world with your CV or with your emails and not really, worry about that.

on that point, I do a lot of work now to translate sort of enterprise. global enterprise, innovation, et cetera, into programs for young people. the one that, inspires me around what you just said [00:12:00] then was this, we call it Biff 101, it's like the 101 principles of problem solving, creativity, change making for sort of 18 to 25, the senior college years through to first, second job.

Matt Hart: And the reason I do that is those kids don't have a CV. right? There's nothing to put on it. So they're trying to tell a really compelling story about themselves. But I've spoken to lots of their educators, parents, etc. In our world we're moving into, if they can say, I'm a problem solver, and I've learned the skills of problem solving, and here's my sort of short example of the sponsored problem I had a go at solving, and what that meant, and what our team came up with, and where we took it to.

If they can show that to a potential employer, they will get the job, right? Because that's what employers are looking for. 

Radim Malinic: let's talk about Biff because Biff is, an incredible beast. how did it come about? How did you do it? obviously like you said, you're a global innovator. You work with all sorts of companies, education, you've got your own program.

So let's talk about the sort of foundation, what it is, what it does, how we can help people. [00:13:00] 

Matt Hart: Yeah,let's not get lost in this, just, shut me up when you want to, but what I did, what I was privileged to learn or be introduced to innovation agency is, so I spent about two years there, I had some health issues through it, etc.

 I had brain surgery. So I think that really did something about, because my, Biff is underpinned by neuroscience of creativity and what that relates to everyone. So the problem you're solving is most people don't believe or have confidence in their innate creativity and more.

They don't understand what it means. And I'm like, if you have a brain, you are a creative human, right? So let's start there. so it's not if you ask how you are, but I got to that through, what I call the three disciplines of innovation. If we go technical for a bit, at that agency, I learned first what they called inventing, but that's new product development, brand services, product solutioning for the marketplace.

So doing that, then I got really curious and interested in why couldn't people do what we were doing and what are those personal barriers to creative performance, et cetera, et cetera. So I started training and writing and developing training [00:14:00] programs to have people understand that personal creativity applied together through innovation process.

 and then, of course, once you start doing that people work, what you're trying to do is capture that as new capability in the culture. So we started doing cultural transformation. So taking what is essentially innovation methodologies and skills and pointing them in for marketplace value and pointing those back in on the organization and going, how do we innovate a culture here that really unleashes people to unlock and unleash, new value through ideas.

So I had this, Biff became this line when I went out. We should talk about this because my first real client was in music, was BBC Radio 1, and that sort of put me on the map. But I had this line that said, look, we can use the process of ideation. We can understand process and we can use the desire to innovate a better idea.

 and use that as a touchstone to have people reconnect with their innate creativity through an experience of doing it. So give them skills, but more give them the experience [00:15:00] that they can be part of this. And as we do multiple projects and run those processes, we can look to capture that as a way of working.

Because ultimately it's that way of working that becomes the defining advantage around what we can add in the world. and you're taking people on a journey to becoming a high performing culture with amazing creative people who are innovating brilliant ideas. 

Radim Malinic: tell me, so what you're describing here from, if I've got my timings right on my, I didn't think about properly.

So this is about your early thirties. Is that right? so to me, it seems quite mature thinking, most people in their thirties are like, I still don't know how these things work. And I still don't know what I'm doing in a way. And you just said, obviously, you were working out programs, how to create, better ideas, how to actually change culture and, asking, you know, how to sort of break down the barriers.I don't know why people couldn't do what you could do. I guess, you say, if you've got a brain, you're creative, but.

Is it that people are waiting for permission? Or is it people that are looking for opportunity? do they not step out of their safe zones? but [00:16:00] you are in your early 30s. You're working on this program.

And you're working with BBC. How does that even happen? Like, how do you see the opportunity? 

Matt Hart: There's so much to unpack there, Renam. It's networks, it's connections, it's opportunities, it's a lot of luck or, or doing the work for luck to happen, actually.

I think one part of it though and I never really saw this in myself until I look back, is in my early 20s I had a lot of, let's say, mental health issues. I, had to do a lot of work to heal myself and to overcome some really deep personal life challenges.

And so that suddenly I embraced an unconventional way of living. I stepped out of that. Cause often talk with young people about saying the conventional path sets you up for one thing. And I, looking at the data, it's about 30 percent of young people are attracted to that. linear career, what career doesn't really exist anymore, but a linear pathway doing what their parents did under a bit of pressure to go be and have a very secure [00:17:00] life for the rest of,60, kids.

And I was certainly one of those. I didn't know what I wanted to do. I was motivated to do something, I was driven to find out what it was. so that's comes from my own story and then having to overcome those personal challenges. and then, so when I went, rolling that forward, When I set up my own thing, I wasn't really sure what that thing was going to be, but I was really attracted to Biff.

Curiosity, being really curious in the world, I was driven by that stimulus to learn and explore. I was driven, so innovation can break down into zero to one, so something doesn't exist and it needs to exist, or one to a thousand and beyond. Okay, you've got the thing now and it's about incremental growth.

As an innovator, I was attracted to the first one, to the zero to one. I was just, wired for that. and I'd, through the agency, so I got very lucky, I'd made connections. the luck of having someone like BBC Radio 1 ring, Was that again, I was a kiwi, I'd embraced this [00:18:00] unconventional way that I was and going to be and continue to do that.

So when I sat down with the board, or, the, they call controllers, but let's say the CEO and his team of BBBC, radio one this is how I did it. I said to him, I don't know anything about radio. haven't worked the music innovation, but I know. a little bit about innovation and unlocking things.

So if you were up for working it out together, then I'm really up for it. But if you want me to come with a pre packaged solution and just do that, whatever, I can't give you that because I don't know music. I don't know your domain, but I know and can trust that what I've got around ideation, people, culture, we can go on a journey together.

and we did. And so it was a knockout example of, embracing something called obliquity, right? So this is the problem. Here's the vision of where we need to get to, but often going from directly from A to B isn't the right way to do it. So that sort of got me on the path to developing an accelerated approach to innovation.

So do the first right thing, [00:19:00] understand the impact of that, be observant, surface the next right thing to do, and then go and do that.and we put on something like four or five million listeners. And so everyone at the end of the BBC Radio 1 story said, who did that? And that put me on the map.

Suddenly I was in music.

I'm known for pioneering an approach to fandom, and so that's what I still do. I still get up and down around the world, working with artists, working with big the music majors, and then taking that fandom approach. So the shorthand is have customers, not fans, and starting to take it into brand land and sustainability.

And looking at these places and the challenges around customer acquisition and loyalty and value, fandom is a much better way of understanding people's behavioural traits. propensity to engage with what you're about than trying to fight for customers. 

Radim Malinic: I think I found link, you mentioned the mental health problems in your early twenties. And I think overcoming mental health problems gives us or even understanding mental health problems.

It gives us an immense superpower to understand the world around you. Because when you look [00:20:00] Inwards, Out. You feel like you're looking from the only lens and everybody's looking at you, like you're the loneliest person in the world, but when you understand actually what's happening and giving more maturity about your conditions and how potentially you can overcome them or live with them or manage them, gives you I think immense superpower in a way makes you mature a bit faster or being bolder.

Say, will you describe it like way of actually, I'm going to help others. I want to actually use this sort of human connection. It's a fantastic example because for me, that didn't happen for many, much, much later in my life. And it's almost fairly recently, like in my forties, I realized that my life was a shit show for 20 years, 

but you're picking up these pieces and you're like, okay, okay, what can I do with all of this? what can I do? Like how, And you start supporting all these patterns and all these signals. we can actually enrich people's lives in a way that they didn't even know how to do it.

And yeah, I love your fact that you came to the meeting, you said, and I'm laughing about music, because we seem to live in this sort of specialist society in a way where people say like, well, you [00:21:00] know, ifyou work on, beer branding, you only should work on a beer branding If you, if you work on this, is, this is your thing. Whereas I see it, from a musical sort of, lingo, which I see this being like a producer. Like you can produce anything. It's a music. this is your shape, but put in a mix. you make it work because the principles in the same way are the same, but, if it's got a different flavor, it's got a different flavor.

your work with BBC, fascinating. must have been one of those listeners at that time. 

Matt Hart: BBC at that time, like to come back to that because actually that's where we're taking Biff, so we can explore this notion of, because I've been trying to reach for a metaphor and because you have to make something that really sticks with people, right?

we've come up with this idea of this iceberg. and of course I've been working as an innovator and a commission to grow new value in market. And what strikes me as bleedingly obvious is that sort of organisations and leaders forget that value can only come from within people. It's not going to come from with anywhere else.

so where Biff started was the difference between the expectation that new [00:22:00] value would come and the correct investment to unleash that value from the people that only can come from, which is deep inside individuals and teams. So that became really interesting. I'm really fascinated that at that waterline level of the difference between what you want to do in the world, you and the world, your ideas, your ventures, your, business, the business you're working for, brand, and that value you're trying to add there.

It's about creativity is actually one of the best gateways to dive down into that deep value within, right? And that's the experience I try to give people through Biff because they've never been there. They're closed to that space and in terms of performance and insights and ideas and questions and curiosity and empathy and deep understanding and all that great stuff from which brilliant new thoughts and ideas come, below that level is deeper ideas about ourselves, who we are, who we really want to become, what we really want to work on, and the [00:23:00] challenges, and anxieties, and doubts, and fears, and wishes, and hopes, and dreams, and all of that, beautiful essence of our humanness.

And so if you can take people down to there and they can confidently reconnect with it, play with it, nurture it, develop, then you can start to surface that and release that. And now we have permission to do that. So it's no longer I work here and I look after my mental health here. These organizations struggling to bring Gen Z in and create whole, nurturing communities.

places of work, embracing all the, multi hyphenate careers, That now has new permission to speak directly to that, in that you can use this thing that no one really understands, that they know is important, called creativity, and you can apply it productively and performatively. But mostly it starts with yourself and then surface that and apply that in the world.

that's what I ended up being, having the privilege to do for lots of brands and organisations [00:24:00] around the world. So take the organisation and the brand on a journey, but know that we would only get that value that I was being paid to deliver or support by also taking people deep back into who they are, how they are and how they can work with their innate creativity.

Radim Malinic: How do you instigate, the evolution and innovation in that, in the organization How does it work? 

Matt Hart: So it's, mostly you get asked in to explore a problem. They know they have some kind of problem.

So you're either being asked to tactically try and solve the problem that they're starting to know they have. Or there's more, so you know, what is it? Two sides of a burning platform or there's a massive opportunity that we could go and grab if we could be smart enough to grab it. But I always start with that chat, I'm sitting with CEOs or C suite people.

you're just riffing around the nature of business and AI and the speed of markets and all of those things. And so ultimately get to that conversation once you get through the hygiene of how they're going. And as you go, [00:25:00] Are you getting the best or better ideas from your people? are you getting that creativity coming through?

And most leaders will tell you, not, we're not seeing that, we're not getting it. Even in the cost of living crisis and they're reducing costs and getting rid of people, even the people they're left with, are you getting the best from those people? And most of them will be honest with you and say, we're not, I know we could be doing better.

And you go, do you know how to do better? And you go, I'm not really. not really, because it could be marketing, it could be brand, it could be working in this investment over here. HR is often the lost division in an organization. They're the hirers and firers that they're not really seen as the, idea of a resource of people there.

How do we really grab it and do more with it? and then you go, look, what if we could, so it's a hypothesis. What if we could unlock and apply some of this, but actually have them deliver that value better and faster? Faster. Though, you're ticking boxes for what they're interested in going, I want my problem solved and I want it turned around as fast as it can be so we [00:26:00] can point towards where we really want to be going.

And that could be internal, or he might go, external, it's the threats. it's this idea of, I speak to a lot of these senior people and it's we know we need to disrupt ourselves before some kids in a basement somewhere working on AI are coming to do it for us. Around most things in creativity and innovation, not enough people know.

where to start or how to start? 

Radim Malinic: You said or a fantastic question. do you know how to do better? And do you know how to do better? I think it should be almost like a sort of daily mantra when we wake up.

do you know how to do better? What can I do better? How can I sleep? How can I own that, on that pain that we all, on the same sort of level. No one's on the axis going up, because as a human, no, we're humans.

We just go in our stories in a different, different location, but we are all on the same platform. No, how can, how can I do better? How can we grow? Like, how can I look at this? Because it does take a little bit of an inner peace and a healthy pinch of curiosity to be thinking there is a [00:27:00] possibility to know more because the people that you're describing, 

 it doesn't always seem like you're going to a place that wants you to be motivated.

Like basically they're like, expecting you to have to run a hundred meter sprint race as best as possible, but you've got no shoes. nothing's been provided. bring your own stuff. are you ready? Go. Wait a minute, you pay me to run a hundred meters, but you're not helping me to do it, So I think from someone who owns a company upstairs has been employing people to do it, to do everything properly, it's hard work. It can be complicated. It doesn't have to be hard work,you've got more than one thing to worry about. So when you go big organizations you know that better, like how do you create a nourishing environment whilst.

Mostly you're driving a car, you're building a car whilst you're driving it in a way, it just that's how it feels. Do you know how to do better? do you, do you often get honest answer? Do people put hands up? 

Matt Hart: Oh, totally. If you're, often the leader of a business or a CEO they're often alone with the challenges.

because they're supposed to be the leader, there's a lot of pressure on them, [00:28:00] etc. you often, through a program, once you get going, you can often become their, sidekick, their mate, their sounding board.and that's a very privileged, trusted, it's almost a sacred space to be.

Because you really get an insight into what they're feeling, their hopes, then you're trying to help them. translate that into performative practices within the organization. But I think in general what happens is, this is where I always come back to, in the absence of knowing the way this actually works and this alignment and this deep access to this well of creativity, you're talking about the daily motivation to do better.

All of us have some kind of lived experience of spontaneous moments when it feels like there's potential for more. We all have that, but what we, in the absence of being trained in it or knowing all the skills to do it, we can't make that a daily practice, to know that can become a performative part of ourselves, that we can tap that space where new possibilities have always been [00:29:00] created, and have that into a discipline and a behavior and a resource that we can use every day.

And that's where Biff now sits. That's where we're taking it. So that's less about, yes, we still do projects in the world and you have a defined thing and it's a brand or it's an artist or whatever. And we're just working through. But what I'm really interested in is how those people connecting meaningfully with what that project is about on an intrinsic level and having that lived experience on a daily basis that I can.

add new value.and I am confident enough that I can, and I can lean into the spontaneous thoughts and ideas that I am having when I have them. and I was thinking about this chat, and you go, what is the barrier? What is the main barrier to all that happening? Either for an individual, for a team, for an organization, for a leadership, etc.

And I always talk about the one small discipline where this all falls down. And [00:30:00] where, sadly, too many people just cannot overcome, and so we're now, I'm now trying to innovate using AI into this space to help, is that everyone knows they have had a spontaneous thought or an idea that feels full of potential at some point.

It's a working part of who we are, we're wired for it, and when you're in different states of flow or whatever that looks like, those things you do that make you feel creative, it comes. The one small discipline is you've got to catch that when it happens. got to notice that I'm actually thinking and feeling and being in a different way and there's a moment of new value, a solution, an idea, a sense of possibility.

If you can capture it, however that is sensorially for you, you write it, you see it, you hear it, whatever, and you share it. So that's that collaborative. Suddenly you've done multiple layers of things. You've recognized the moment that it happened. You've known that if you don't capture it in that moment, [00:31:00] which is very ephemeral because it's surfacing, it's very raw.

It's very hard to articulate. You have an embodied experience of something. How do you capture it? And then you've shared it. So you've been confident enough to go, I'm having an idea, there's something in this, I don't know where it goes, but I want to share it with you because together we can make it better.

You're on your way. But most people don't do that. They go, Oh, I must remember that. Oh, there was something in that. It's a fleeting example of something there. They don't capture it. The moment's gone. They try and get it back later. It's incredibly hard to feel that sense of power again after the fact. And so, what happens is that innate capacity, we all have atrophies.

They're like your hundred meter runner. person there who's no longer fast enough. The muscles aren't strong enough anymore. Regardless of whether they're wearing running shoes or not, everything starts to atrophy. And so that innate talent we have thins, Yeah. And so that's one of the core problems that all of this [00:32:00] stuff has to get to.

Radim Malinic: It's interesting what you said about the CEOs, because as you said, they've got a time in the sun, but they're very lonely because when things are going well, they're getting all the, praise. when things don't go well, they're the first one to be shut down. it's a cruel world because obviously you get praised for your successes and shut down for, someone else's failure in a way.

And it can feel very lonely space. So when you say like you become the sidekick, I think that's an almost perfect platform because you're the trusty confidant. And, the plumber with the no leaky pipe was like, not only I can fix this leak, but there's a whole plumbing system that needs fixing or maybe redoing.

So I think that gives you an interesting sort of superpower. And again, if I was to use it as of a keyword of this conversation, superpower of actually making that change with people who are very much in charge. So I think it's sometimes, it's just quite hard to actually make an institutional change when everyone's involved, because if you ask everyone for an opinion, you get a wrong answer.

But, when you talk about, with Biff, obviously you talk about better ideas [00:33:00] faster, but I know when it comes to your processes, you're very much an advocate of non Russian ideas. That you want to take people out of Russian, because obviously the world is geared up that the patience is no longer necessary.

An adjective for skill, like you don't have any patience anymore.

 So how do you encourage people to actually dwell on an idea a little bit more? 

Matt Hart: Yeah, it's a really good question. the, the first thing to say is one of the things you have to solve for is redefining what an idea actually is.

of course, in most organizations who are quite fossilized in their thinking almost just,churning out the same, expecting different results, et cetera. Is, always take the heat off the new idea being a new thing, because that's hugely risky and It's often not the right solution you're going for, as it turns out, you understand the right problem to solve.

the first thing to understand is that, an idea, You can start with what is the right problem? So what is the best question we're asking? What is the question we're even asking? What are we setting out to do? So that's the first idea you can [00:34:00] have. And that's why I ended up coming up, you know, you mentioned earlier, this thing called the BIFS six steps.What I found in many, many organizations who don't understand creative or rather innovation process is that it's working to two steps. One is let's have the idea. And they do that in old school brainstorming ways, which is next to useless, and then they'll go some poor soul. Who's the problem owner of that brainstorm.

Has to package up something and go and work out how to launch it. So they're working to two steps. So the first problem to solve from a process point of view and understanding, it's just, go look, that's not serving us. Let's park that and actually start in a different place. And where are we're gonna start with is what we call the brief.

Let's understand and ask a better question of what we're trying and setting out to do. That brief sets up. the domain of the world we're trying to innovate into, which is insight, right? And understanding. So then you're into empathetic understanding, market research, call it what you like, co creation, blah, You're trying to look for intelligence into the nature of that problem, which could be productive for you. [00:35:00] And then those productive insight, truths, insights, inspire ideation. And then what you want to do is actually surface up ways against your brief and the criteria of what you're going for to test the best.

And then you're into that iterative. development cycle of test, learn, develop, test, learn, develop, until you eventually get to a place where you go, let's develop this into a way that we can start to make it happen. So you're in this sort of brief insight ideas, test, develop, launch, and then that's sequential, right?

In terms of working linear, and then what you want to do is as you start to get confident in where you and a team can lean in, because not everyone is really good at ideas, but someone's really good at determining the right question to ask or other people are really empathetic and so are really good at the insight piece.

And then you get a few sparkers who can come up with a, but then you get lots of people who are doers and I'm ready to test this idea and start to work and make it happen. So there's room for everyone and everyone's creativity is needed. So you can create this new [00:36:00] context. So you go, Hey, I do have a role here and I can add value through this process.

But I haven't got the ball yet. I'm waiting for it to come to me and I can support. That's how you unlock that collaborative power of doing that. And through that experience, as I said, people can get to realise that as my value, where there's a place for my value, how do I then surface and reconnect with that?

Thoughts and ideas that I can have there in that place. that's not in a brainstorm because they're designed more for collaboration of thoughts and ideas people have already had. So then that becomes that discipline we spoke about, which is, I'm owning the brief or we're doing insight.

That's the place I'm leaning into. You realize when you introduce people to working this in this way, and they understand a bit of skill and they point it back in on themselves, you don't need to generate anything. It's about a softer, letting go and trusting that the work you're doing and have been observant and curious about yourself [00:37:00] and the world and understanding that at some point those thoughts and ideas will come to you spontaneously.

All you've got to do is catch them and share them through the nature of that process you're working on. 

Radim Malinic: You just said, in your answer, Dad, You give people opportunity to not generate anything because it almost seems to me like a safe space, nourishing space. Because, I'm lucky I've not been in too many, brainstorms in my life.

brainstorms. Because, it's bullshit. Most of the time it's just you have to say something to prove your, to almost to prove your worth in the room. 

Matt Hart: most people don't because they're too terrified that they'll say something stupid it's shaming experience because they don't have confidence that what they're doing is, and the boss is in the room, so I'm not saying that.

And so you get all this weird, heuristics and biases playing out in this forum that is the worst place for productive creativity, let's say. That's not the space and they're not designed for origination or generation because that can happen elsewhere because that's the way our brains are wired to work.

You just need to know it. Then, what are those [00:38:00] meetings for? They're designed for a collaborative sharing and building together and the surfacing around individual thoughts and ideas that can coalesce around something brand new, 

Radim Malinic: one of the most important designers I think of our time is Brian Collins. And he said, no creative person has ever asked for brainstorm. what you're describing, and actually having the ability not to generate anything can almost seem frightening because in the words of John Haggerty, he'll be like, as a creative person, you come to work and you have to have an idea every day.

because what you described earlier,innovation is either zero to one or one to 1000, and I think the magic is in both ways, like we don't always have to have a fresh idea that will change the world because, for example, when you look at a world of politics, they're always trying to come up with a new policy, like this new policy is going to change everything.

why don't you take what works and make that better? no one's going to blame you for being lazy or whatever. Like just, we can actually take it easy. 

Matt Hart: No, and also the most successful ideas tap behaviors that are already there, and move us into the sort [00:39:00] of humans that we are, that love discovering and new and excitement, but it has to connect with what's already there.

So zero to one innovation is hard and it's super risky and most people don't want to do it. That's why we end up with the incremental shit we've got now and it's what I call now with aloe vera, It's kind of like, what it is with a little twist of flavor.

That's great, that adds value, that keeps people employment and business and economies turning over, but it's not going to change the game, 

Radim Malinic: I think, would you say, since it doesn't change the game, would the world ever be ready for it? changing the game because most people, as you see it from prejudices and from, ingrained opinions, like some, people don't want to change.

 because we know that with the UNR and lots of people listening to this would know that we would have benefited from a major overhaul in many ways of our societies and our business, but that's not going to change because a some of those CEOs or people who actually could make that sort of real big change.

that's what excites me about now though, Radim, that is all true up until [00:40:00] recently, because we have existential threats to our way of lives. To the environment, to the social divisions, to what we see happening in the world and the impact on not just the way we're living our world and cost of living crisis and climate and all of that, but actually a more soulful challenge on the meaning we're deriving from how we're living and what that looks like for us and our future generations.

Matt Hart: And you've got kids, I've got kids in our, what we want for them and, the existential future they're facing. So I think what's really exciting about me is I feel like I've been in boot camp for 30 years. Preparing and experiencing these things to now go, now it's really needed.

it's no longer just a bit of a brainstorm, bit of a project, let's create some new value. no, we need some step change here. AI is the accelerant, for that fire or that need. I'm sure you're across. It's the holy grail, it's where we need to be, it's going to unlock productivity and efficiency and blah, blah, blah.

I see it as what it's doing is eating in. So I worked with [00:41:00] Cisco 10, 12 years ago in San Francisco. Some great mates out of it, we're still working today. But it was the first time I heard that line, what can be digitised will be, and what can be automated will be, and is being. And so then we were looking at, it was an education project, and we were looking at the future of education and what was required.

I was like, what does that mean? And I'm actually really excited by that now, because what it does is, I think in terms of ideas as stacked, So what's the hardware piece we're looking at? What's the software piece we're looking at? And what I really see now, and where we're taking birth, is it's that humanware.

That as AI, and anything that can be automated, and jobs, and repetition, and digitization of everything, You're gonna be left for this ultimate defining space that machines will never touch, which is our transcendental creativity, our soulful spiritual selves, our need for connection and meaning and value in the world and purpose, and the talents and skills that we [00:42:00] can bring to that using these tools to help us do that more.

So markets are going to be massively disrupted. Businesses, C suites are now looking at the threats that are coming and going. How do I? innovate and disrupt ourselves and start to reposition and repoint ourselves into this new domain. What does that look like? What are the opportunities coming down the pike for those big pillars of the way we live our lives?

And how do we grab those as and transition them from just being challenges into opportunities. the last thing to say about that is, I do, this Biff Kids work we do with really, primary school kids, junior school, we take the SDGs, having done a bit of work with the UN and the Sustainable Development Goals, and we point them at these kids and go, they're not so much goals, they're problems to solve.

And these will be some of the problems your wild imaginations and creativity will eventually work on one day to help solve. And then we localise those problems to give them a place based learning experience. [00:43:00] And that, I think, frames up the sort of next 20 years of venturing and enterprise and entrepreneurial behaviour because these existential crises we're starting to face There is a new that can come through that, and we can only grab that and turn them into next gen inventions, et cetera, that marry up this, what we talk about, this urgent need for purpose, solving that problem, gaining new meaning from the solving of it, and the profit that can be derived from that as a going concern, as a business, as an economy, et cetera.

I find that hugely exciting. As daunting as it is, the need for new skills, new behaviours, new processes, new ways of collaborating, the kind of new ventures that'll come from that, whether it's individuals and small teams, using AI to accelerate their impact globally. I'm talking to you, this is a, this is a, What we're doing is a nature of this world.

and so I find it hugely exciting. 

Radim Malinic: I think most mature conversations I've had about AI was actually from the world of [00:44:00] business.

Because when you talk about creativity and AI and generative AI, it's almost like an instant, instant thing. panic button. because creative people want to be creative. They don't want to feel like they want to be replaced by something. But when you look at from evolution, evidence, people had to change their creative professions many, many times over, 

we always adapt. And I think, in the most fascinating way as a creative, like you, you've got actually basically superpower tools at your disposal, which often actually are free, and we'll be used to do in a manual way that take you three, four hours, let's say creatively, it can take two, four, five seconds, to do it with a filter now or click of a button because that task has been.

automated. And I just feel like it's a massive opportunity to actually free up our cognitive capacity to say, what do I do with this? Because this is now the norm, we're not going back. We're not never going to unplug all the AI or whatever, or half of the internet, like this is the baseline.

What do we do with it? 

I think it's becoming more evident that's how we connect [00:45:00] because after all, You will always know it was being created by a human, we've been using tools in ways of CGI and creativity and whatever, all the tunes and music, whatever that, we always knew that's a tool, but it was used by a human.

Now we think, is the AI doing the stuff? We're still controlled by the human. Like it's, not shapeless, Gollum, say, does things its own accord. So I like that you talk about, soulfulness, because that's one of my, paragraphs from one of my books.

It's just like says, put your soul into it. if you bullshit people, they'll see it. 

Matt Hart: Do you follow Nick K's Red Hand Files? He talks a lot about this. It's worth following. He's become a sort of, pastor meets artist, and a lot of grief in his own life and connecting with his fans around music and grief and speaking to that so elegantly and beautifully.

But hey, that was the first time I talked about this transcendental creativity and his rubbishing of what AI can produce, because it's not sentient, it's not soulful, it's not spiritual, but, I do think of AI like a tool, and, you think about when someone invented the [00:46:00] hammer, It could be used as a blunt, violet instrument or something to build a cathedral.

What are you going to use it for? And sits for me right now. Yes, there's huge threats around it, obviously, but it sits in that space. it's a tool and it's an extraordinary tool. But in my domain and what I'm trying to do and what you're trying to do around creativity and innovation, it has a huge role to play because the data will show you,for the majority of people, they grow away or are educated out of or lose confidence with that innate creativity.

So they no longer identify or believe they are. How do you give that back? Now you can have analog experiences, you can coach them into it, you can help them into it. But they move so far, we as humans move so far away from that innate, imaginative, soulful space within us. has a role as your personal coach or assistant to help you bring that back.

So that something is every day nudging you along and helping you get that space. And all you [00:47:00] have to do is start to experience it one or two times and you go, wow, there really is something there. Because as we've talked about, it's that difference between that idea or value I'm thinking about in the world, how nurturing, and, meaning, that the meaning that it can add to make me feel more whole and more complete and more connected with myself, it's wholly nurturing.

that's the space we're trying to get to and if AI can be a tool to help us get there and nurture that and develop with that, say bring it on. 

Radim Malinic: How do you, so you talk about capturing ideas, like recognizing you've got an idea and you capture it. In your own creative practice and obviously in your own daily life.

What is it that comes to you at the moment? What sort of topics are you milling around and what are you capturing?

Matt Hart: how to start? So I start my day every day with pen and paper, or iPad and pencil. And so when I wake up, I know I'm waking up having spent a night in the deep [00:48:00] creativities making new connections and surfacing new stuff.

And so I start my day every day, scribing, writing. Downloading, what's been coming, and then I marry that up with what I'm trying to focus on, my intentions for the day, what I'm working on, looking for new connections on where those sort of come through. I meditate twice a day, certainly once a day, every day.

I generally do that with my own circadian rhythms, if you like, I know the rhythm I have in the afternoon, there's a dip before the kids get home from school or wherever I am. I'll take, anywhere from half an hour to an hour and I will, consciously take my space with intention to connect with the deep well of what's going on, knowing that opening me to not just what's inside me, but what might be coming to me.

it takes us into a whole other realm, another podcast, which is. The idea of mind and the hard problem of consciousness and, where is that? And this is, we talked about generating ideas. If you never have to generate anything, you only have to be open to receive them. So where are you receiving them from?

They're either coming from [00:49:00] within, or it feels like they're coming to you. And I actually believe the reason that Biff is starting to touch on the science of spirituality is that we can be channels and vessels for those ideas that are supposed to be coming through us. If we're really clear about our purpose and what we want to be doing in the world and where we might be going, and we open to that, and we intend for that, you start to seem that life responds to that through spontaneous connections, opportunities, Wow, I was just thinking about that, and you've emailed me, and you've called me, and that happened, and these, life starts to respond to that.

I believe that intentionally, but those things are supposed to be coming to us then we have a responsibility to capture them. So how do we capture them? I'll often be walking, listening to a podcast, get halfway through, you're drifting off. You start to have thoughts and ideas about what you're working on.

Stop the podcast, open up the iPhone audio app and just riff it and start speak to it. And then drop that into OLEO or something like that and record it. Now it's written down. I created a little Biff [00:50:00] app. I've created different versions of Biff app. Most people are visual. And they'll be out there in the world, or walking around, and they'll see something that triggers a thought.

So take a photo, but capture the two parts of it. What you're seeing, the stimulus that's making you think something, and what's the associated thought. Because if I capture those two things, I can share that with you, and go, Hey, I saw this! Or I've read this or whatever, but this is what it made me think.

can we riff on that? Can we collaborate around that? Where's it taking you?and what you find. So for people who are new to that and I form project teams, I'm leading it and I start sending them a fire hose of stimulus. If they're close to that, it just feels like too much. They're overwhelmed.

When you have knowing, confidence in your creativity, you know you have to do nothing with that except be open to receiving it and then trust that deeper talent is going to make sense of it. That's why you don't have to generate the cognitive load of creativity can be solved And such that you can have all of that come in, have new thoughts and ideas, it means you can work on multiple problems and [00:51:00] projects at once. Because they're surfacing across collaborative, ideas that are feeding across the whole portfolio. Yeah. That's the magic of it. 

Radim Malinic: Yeah, I think you're absolutely right.

When you're open to something, the world knows that you live and breathe that open space. Because, might be trying to pursue a career in something different, but you might be doing A, but you want B. The world knows you want A. you live and breathe A.

And it's for you to make B happen if you want to make that happen. But if I could take you back a couple of steps, you said you meditate twice a day. And I think around the circadian rhythm, I think that's a clever hack because that three o'clock dip is real. 

What do you do for meditation? what's the exercise that you do? 

Matt Hart: Yeah, I'm quite deep in it. So I've been meditating for 30 odd more years. but I know when I introduce it to new people, if you stop and be quiet. so I often think that there's lots of different definitions of meditation, but it's just a pause and give thought, focus thought.

what happens for most people, if they're new to it and they want to start and start to reconnect, is all they can hear is the noise. And it's way too busy, and [00:52:00] it's screaming at them, and it's every sort of past fear, anxiety, etc. that is just the mental churn and the tapes and the old stories that go round and round and round and round.

It's really hard to get past that, That's the bit we've got to really support. I've done the different meditations from, repeated mantras to breath, to holding a focused thought, to, using music or, frequencies to help put your, entrain your brain into a certain state and take you down.

Now I'm attracted to something called heart math. the notion that you put your awareness. So if you just say, Hey, feel your knee? Can you put your mind on your knee or somewhere? You can do that. And so heart math at a really basic level just says, put your awareness on your heart and then relax and breathe into your heart.

All right. So breath is taking you there. I can feel myself slipping into it now. you can just take yourself there. And as you're trying to put that, conscious awareness on your heart, the mental noise slows you release from that conscious [00:53:00] prefrontal cortex space, the rationalizing mind, and you slip deeper and you start to move in that place of singular focus.

And then you can go quite deep in there. So you on the border between Deep,focused, slow consciousness on the border of the dreaming brain. And that's the space I want to get to with meditation because I know at that point, there's lots of thoughts and ideas that are ready to come through.

Radim Malinic: I love that analogy of what you just said about, the heart and the focus, because meditation is a little bit like a creativity because if you feel you're not doing it right, you'll start judging yourself. people use meditation as a blaster, okay, shit, I'm in trouble.

This is meditation. This should help me. Oh, it's not helping me just yet. I hope this would be like the magic formula. And when you think about it, it's a bit like creativity. Like when, you say you've got people in the room, they don't want to say an idea because they might stupid, And I think it's just admitting that. Anything goes, because it's a continuous practice, because we can be back on that athletic, arena, like at a hundred meters. [00:54:00] It doesn't matter if you run it in one minute, ten seconds, two days, you're doing it. And I think that being in that motion, one day it will get better, one day it will get easier, because you will stop focusing on what is it that it should be.

Matt Hart: Yeah. And also when you, obviously meditation is really hard for most people to start.

So it's not 30 minutes, it's five and it might be your favorite tunes that chill you out. Let's start there. Or it could be just a walking meditation where you're listening to music and you're walking, walking is an amazing alpha space, but, the point is that when you can get there and they might only be fleeting moments.

There is no judgment in that space. There's no you judging yourself and there's no judgment of others. There's something magical about that space you can get to, which is why meditation is so rewarding and fulfilling, in that space and in that mind, you don't have to do anything. you just be, you're just there and you're there with some sort of presence about yourself.

It You know, you start to lose that sort of egoic nature of who I [00:55:00] am and the story of me, and you move into some deeper space. I'm fascinated by that as it relates to value and innovation in the world, but also what that says about, who are we in that space? And what is that nature of us that extends and stretches?

And what new potentials and possibilities are there for us that we can surface back into this space? world in a tangible way. That's the magic of it. 

Radim Malinic: When you're on the road, do you have a strong discipline of keeping it up? Because you get people who get out of trouble, they start meditating, looking after themselves, and then they go, back on the road, doing things they need to do.

And the habits start slowly slipping, the practice is not as strong. So how, for example, you travel, and how do you keep it up? 

Matt Hart: Now I'm, a long way in this space, and so it's become so ingrained, so I know that if I have my iPad open and my pencil out and I start scribing or writing, I get myself to that space immediately.

So I can do, at that point, it doesn't matter where I am in the world. [00:56:00] I'm actually with me and my creativity at that moment.so that anchors me and holds me, and I know that's my space. So that's, the first thing. And I know, it's so valuable and a part of intrinsically who I am and how I am, that I do that every day.

And then I know that I, still have my own issues. it's not that I have had mental health issues every day, but I know that I move, I believe you're either moving forward you're going backward. There is no stasis. Everything is always being created. And so my discipline is to meditate every day because I have to.

it's part of my practice. I know that I am always, I don't want to say working on, but let's say I'm working on that part of myself to make sure I'm investing in my wellness. Because I know if I don't do that every day, and that's nothing about performance in the world, that's just performance in me. I know if I don't do that, I cancel it back.

And what does that look like? I'm not as a loving partner or present. I'm more grumpy and shitty with my kids. And, I'm not as good a parent as I could be or [00:57:00] all of that stuff that we know. 

Radim Malinic: my therapists says that you can be the best surgeon in the world, but you can't take out your own appendix, 

Matt Hart: all of that, you only need to ask my kids, what sort of dad is he?

And you're going to get the truth, 

Radim Malinic: Yeah. Oh, Matt. it was such a pleasure meeting you. I feel like we can literally spend three or four other episodes of doing this because there's a great value from someone who I feel is ahead this journey, has worked with a wealth of clients and experiences and you put it in a way that, it's inspirational because was doing some research on this conversation and I was quite happy to see that you're working with kids and like trying to Made a change from bottom up in a way in some society, because you never think that the kids need really ideas and creativity because they are powerhouses, like you ask them to draw anything, they'll draw it because they haven't decided how to think, they haven't been thinking of how to.

Matt Hart: Yeah, but I, ran, I that same kid in 20 years and will they still be able to do that? And the answer today is no, they won't, that's the bit we got to solve. 

Radim Malinic: Yeah, exactly. So I'm fully in awe of what you do I'm a big fan. And, yeah, we need to repeat this in [00:58:00] one, time soon.

I have a coffee in London. So Thank you so much for your time. have, taken so much. I've never written more notes in this conversation or any previous conversation like I did today. 

Matt Hart: Oh, brilliant. Thank you, Radam. I'm really, it's been a real privilege and listen, I'd love to hear some of your tunes.

Even though I'm not a death metal fan, I have to say, But, I'd love to see what you're doing. Send me a couple of links, I'll get into it. It'd be fantastic. 

Radim Malinic: maybe not. We'll find out. Thank you, Matt. Nice one. 

Matt Hart: Hey, thank you, man. Take care. Big love.​

USBPre2-7: I thank you for listening to this episode of mindful creative podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions, or even suggestions. So please get in touch via the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, write and manage editing. An audio production was massively done by Neil McKay from 7 million bikes podcast. And the theme music was written and produced by Jack James. Thank you. 

And I hope to see you on the next [00:59:00] episode.