Dan Woodger — freelance illustrator, animation director, and returning Daring Forever guest — joins Radim to unpack Run London Draw London, the project he built alongside training for this year's London Marathon. ~

Starting from a blank canvas in January, Dan invited people to donate £5 to add a hand-drawn character to a sprawling crowd-scene illustration of the marathon route, turning strangers, club runners, and eventually Paula Radcliffe, pro athletes, and podcast hosts into part of the artwork. 

The conversation ranges across the collision of running and illustration, the frustration of NDA'd client work going unseen, the highs and lows of a data-obsessed relationship with Strava, and the sheer force of just asking for what you want. It closes on marathon day itself — cramp, crowd energy, and a mid-race bottle of water from Mo Farah — and on what comes next for the project.

Takeaways

• The project raised over £5,000 for Oxfam, well past the initial £2,000 target, entirely self-funded and self-run
• Dan built the crowd scene in public on Instagram, showing the process rather than only the finished piece, as a deliberate response to AI in the industry
• Two hundred characters were needed to fill the scene — a number he set himself before a single donation came in
• Getting Paula Radcliffe, Mo Farah, pro athlete Julia Paternain, and the Ellis James and John Robins podcast involved all came from cold, slightly odd, direct asks
• Frustration with NDA'd client work — and the resulting quiet in his inbox — was part of what pushed him to make something fully his own
• Running and illustration turned out to share the same trap: comparing your own work-in-progress to everyone else's highlight reel
• On race day, cramp hit from 30K onward, but the crowd — and strangers recognising their own drawn characters — carried him through
• He's already thinking about a second edition, ideally with a brand or sponsor covering the printing and shipping costs he covered out of pocket this time

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Dan Woodger: When Paula Radcliffe did that shout-out on their podcast, they ended up having to explain, like, how to try and support the project, and it was wordy.

He was saying, "Oh, his name's Dan Woodger, D- Dan, W-O-O-D-G-E-R. You go to his JustGiving page." It was, like, such a leap to try and find who I was, and then it was then I was like, "All right. That's too many points of, like, dropping off to find me." It needs to just Ronseal it. It needs to do what it says.

I need something where you just need to go to a point so you can donate to me because this is just too many things going on here. I need a central point. I built a website, and luckily the domain name... I was sorting it Run London Draw London. It's not a brilliant name with a Ronseal in it, right? I was just trying to do SEO in, like, it d- does what it says on the tin.​

Radim: Welcome to Daring Forever, a podcast about being human, wired for wonder, capable of courage, perpetually becoming. It's about the waves that knock us under and the strange stubborn grace with which we surface. My name is Ryan Mallenich. I'm an author, creative, and an eternally curious human being on a mission to speak to incredible people whom I call forever daring humans, those in pursuit of an extraordinary life.

Every week, I share an interview that is packed with amazing stories, value, and I can only ask you, how will you dare forever? This podcast is inspired by my upcoming book titled Daring Forever, which is now available for pre-order out in October

​

Radim: My guest today spent 16 weeks turning a London Marathon training blog into a crowdsourced illustration, a fundraiser, and a masterclass in just asking. Dan Woodger is a freelance illustrator and animation director and a returning voice on this podcast.

In this conversation, we talk about Run London, Draw London. This project grew from a few donations into two hundred hand-drawn characters, a Paula Radcliffe cameo, and a Mo Farah handing him a water at mile 23.

We get to talk about NDA fatigue, the crossover between running and creative endurance, and why nothing happens until you ask first. Dan raised more than £5,000 for Oxfam, and this is what happens when a hobby, a hunch, and a sheer nerve collide.

 This is Dare to Ask What You Want conversation with Dan Woodger.​

Hey, Dan. Welcome back to the podcast. Welcome to Daring Forever, new season about pursuing the things we would otherwise regret never starting. How are you today? 

Dan Woodger: I'm all right. I'm on the tail end of a cold, but suffering through freelancer spirit and all that, and just having to get on with it. 

Radim: Isn't that just life of a parent?

You're always on the tail end of a cold. You- you've finished one or just about to start the next one, right? 

Dan Woodger: Yeah, always, yeah. 

Radim: Absolutely. For the record, you and I normally share a studio space in person, but we're doing this remotely whilst you are on your day off. I wanted to get you back because we chat a lot about what you do, what I do, and you've just completed a project which I thought was so monumental that deserved literally the stamp of daring forever.

Because it's been fascinating to watch, it's been fascinating to witness and to see what you've done with it. So you are my returning guest. I think you came on my first season when we chatted about what it's like to be an illustrator, what all goes into it. But we're gonna talk about your project, Run London Draw London.

But for those who may have not listened to your first episode or not know who you are, how would you introduce yourself? Who are you? What do you do? 

Dan Woodger: Yeah. Cheers. Thanks for having me back on. I'm Dan Woodger. I'm a freelance illustrator and animation director. I have been working in the creative industry for 15 years now, and broadly sell my set style of illustration and animation work to clients ranging from editorial through to advertising, social campaigns, that kind of More recently, over the last three, four years, I've tried to pair it a little bit more with my hobby, which is running. I've tried to steer my artwork in that direction. It's an area that I'm passionate about and I feel like in the changing tide of the creative industry with, , introduction of AI, I've tried to bring more of my personality, my own interests into the work that I make and give there a little bit more human depth to what I do.

It's 

Radim: your editorial work and your creative work throughout the years has had all sorts of sports themes from Strava cheats to fueling and all sorts of stuff, treadmills and extra trainers.

The question is, when did you realize that running and illustration can actually really work side by side together? 

Dan Woodger: It's still an ongoing experiment to see if it can, but I think that the more that I familiarize myself with the running space and seeing how there is high tier of design when it comes to the shoes and the really big brands, but then below that there is a huge gap in opportunity for a more creative voice.

And I think a lot of the elite sportswear comes in with this very high performance, sophisticated style of design, whereas more of the hobby runners like myself, we're just doing it for fun running. And now you see so much streamline work. I wanted to come in with a bit more of a happier, sillier approach where it brings my style of illustration in.

You remember you used to see... I think my big inspiration for it was seeing some of the old marathon T-shirts, finisher's T-shirts from the New York marathons and London marathons where it was much more like character-led and sillier and brighter and now it's all very, it's all very more modern and sleek and honestly, sometimes a little bit boring.

Whereas actually- I think that, I don't know, there is more personality in running than that, and so I tried to bring some of that in. So I've just tried to bring a bit more of that personality through, in what I do, and , I just recognized there was a bit of a opportunity there to force myself into the space a little bit.

Radim: You're absolutely right, 'cause when I think of, , all the Nike campaigns when it comes to, the Hackney Half and whatever o- other, other events or even, like, the Marathon, it's very type-based, slogan-based. , It obviously works when you think about it from the placards, where people cheering you on from the sidelines.

You know, that all works, but what you created to it, what you've created for the space I think is a, a really cheerful addition to actually showcase that it's a bit more human, right? Because bes- yeah, we all need motivation, but actually to create the representation of the people themselves I think is really, really nice angle.

Dan Woodger: Yeah, exactly. I think there are so many more stories in running that aren't championed as much as like the Sebastian Sawe smashing a sub-two-hour marathon at London takes all the headlines. But what I try to do is give more voice to all the other people who are not grabbing those headlines, but still it means an awful lot to them, and bringing that more, a wider range of reasons why people like running and their reasons for running, and just showing a little bit more of what it's like at the back.

Radim: You've gotta give me an idea for a question, 'cause I want to know where did your love for running develop? Because I know you used to run in the past, but you picked it up recently again, and I wanna know was it fitness? Was it escapism? Was it mental health? Which part of it clicked, and at what point do you go from the pain into the enjoyment?

Dan Woodger: I'm really frustrated with my past self for giving it up. So back in 2013, 2014, I first started running. I was always quite a sporty kid, but then when I went to art school it all sort of completely fell off. And then those first few years starting as a freelancer, I found that it was a good way to manage stress and all those things.

And then for whatever reason, I still can't tell you to this day why, when it first clicked, I had all these visions of being like doing this when I was older and I saw the older runners and that was my inspiration to keep doing it. And then I think just, just no one around me was running. I was just doing it for myself.

There, there wasn't really a social side to it. There wasn't a big social media, there wasn't runfluencers or anything like that. And so I felt quite lonely just posting it up to Nike+ app. Before this was like pre-Strava. Only had two friends on there, and so I think there was no accountability or people like to riff off of.

There was no community. So it might be the reason, but for whatever reason, if it's not that, it just fell off. And then you would think it would be a lockdown thing, right? Everyone took up running in lockdown, but I was the opposite. I actually was annoyed with runners because every time I was trying to get my steps in for the day, they were breathing all over me on the pavement or whatever, and I was so terrified about COVID.

So then when it really started was when my first daughter came along, she was born in tail end of 2021. I'm really keen to have both my girls learn to swim, and so I started taking them swimming. And then it was a weird knock on domino effect. Then when I was taking her swimming, I noticed that I had been doing the classic thing of a, a new parent and I was just consuming all the sugar.

All the late nights had me grazing from the biscuits and the donuts and anything that I could do to propel myself through that mad six months of newborn baby in the house. And I started to like l- lose a little bit of control over what I was eating and, my health and I was just trying to...

All those things of managing both a new baby, a business a- and I wasn't looking after myself very much. And then I glanced over at the swimming pool and I was like, oh, I used to love swimming. Maybe I could start coming to this gym that I take my daughter swimming. And then so I started doing that.

Started swimming once a week, then twice a week, then three times a week, and noticed myself getting fitter. And then this little bell went off in my head. I wonder if this fitness that I'm getting from swimming translates to running. And so one Sunday I decided to put my trainers on and just blasted, like any runners will know, it is the worst type of training, but you just all out 5K.

Just go and try to hit, run as fast as you can every time you go out the door. And that's what I was doing. And every Sunday I kept going out. First Sunday and then I looked at my stats, whatever, still using the Nike+ app. I dusted that old thing off and found my password. And then I was like, okay, I'm five minutes off what I did 10 years ago.

I reckon that's achievable to rope that back in. And then that was it really. And then it went from doing it every Sunday to then twice a week, three times a week, , and then it overtook the swimming and then it, it ticked so many things off for me. So one, it was this nice level of getting a handle on my physical fitness again.

But then also I found it did so much for me mentally. It crafted a really nice space that I needed between the stress of parenting and the stress of work, and it, it was something for myself which I realized I wasn't taking, and it's the easiest thing I could find to do to go get that head space.

Trainers on, out the door, so it doesn't require me to Put on Lycra or get the swimming shorts out and, like, go to the gym or to go, "Got half an hour, I can go." And I found it, I loved it, and then the more I did it, the more I valued the environment and being outside, and then I would do it in all weathers.

I started to romanticize it a little bit. , I come in from a wet run and I'm soaked through. But the idea of then taking off all that, you're not cold or anything when you're running in the rain, but you embrace the elements and then you come in, shower, get dry, get warm, and there's something in all of that that's really a tactile quality to it.

I like the smells of it. There's just all these things that really fire me up creatively, and then I realized it was filtering some creative fuel as well. And then I found myself really excited to then take all this newfound love of my passion, this hobby that I'd found, and take the things I was loving from it and transfer it to the work that I was making, and it was a lovely cycle that was perpetuating itself.

I'm head over heels in love with it as a pastime. 

Radim: What you describe about putting your trainers on and just getting out, I think that's pretty awesome because I remember getting ready for a cycle in winter, and I counted 27 different things I had to put on myself, put in my pocket, put in my bike, put to check this, check that, and you get a question like, "Is it just not easy just to get out?"

Like, no. But what I want to know, what you mentioned about a Nike+ app, which is, that's a blast from the past. Obviously, now we all on Strava. But what was your approach and what was your love and hate relationship, or was there a love and hate relationship with data? 

Dan Woodger: I think it's, I'm on the downside of the crest of that w- data wave. So I initially had some really good results from matching my data, and I got really nerded out on it and started reading up training methods. And I signed up to a training plan app called Runner, and it, gives you targets and different types of trainings to do, and it's all fed in through the data that you input, and it gives back.

And got my 5K time down to something I was really, really chuffed to bits with. This was last summer. And then I had a couple of injuries, and then I started shifting. Try not to get too nerdy with the running technicalities here, but basically I then-- s- I signed up for the marathon, which will lead us on to the project I think quite nicely in a minute.

But I signed up for a marathon, and that is a very different type of training than for a fast 5K. It's a lot more slower running, and you have to almost change your approach. And it's really hard to separate that data stuff because I was doing a lot slower running, which means all these things that really don't matter for us hobby runners.

But little things like VO2 max is creeping back up again because I'm not doing the really fast stuff anymore. I'm doing more stuff for longevity. And so my data went all in one direction for a really long time and then started going back up in the other direction, and I almost don't wanna see it. And I know in my head, I know the reason why that's happening, but it's still so hard to separate the two things.

So I've had to try and... My relationship with Strava has been a bit weird recently, where I used to be all in. I used to love it. I used to r- like everyone's posts and stuff. And a bit at the moment because I'm the other side of the marathon now and I'm training for some faster stuff again, I've been avoiding Strava a little bit.

I input my stuff but then get off the app quickly 'cause in comparison to the thief of joy, seeing other people getting some really fast times and stuff, I find it a little bit difficult to not get that competitive thing happening. So it's almost like withdrawing myself before I get sucked into this data spiral.

But I find it, it's weird. It's a real mixed bag, right? I love the data for certain things, but I try not to have it as a comparison tool as best I can, but really hard not to. I 

Radim: There's been some studies that actually Strava is quite corrosive to mental health. Can test that my cycling performance has gone much, much better because I've seen all the other people cycling really well and really fast.

I was like, "Maybe I can do that." And kinda helps you to hit the benchmark, but then you find yourself to be fighting yourself because it could have been better, it could have not been better. And there've been, literally there've been actually st- studies like how people were really trying to go for the KOMs, let's say, in cycling and killing themselves because that's what they wanted to do.

I was doing Richmond Park yesterday on my bike, and it was windy. It was a proper tailwind from, up Sawyer's Hill. I was going like 60, 65K. I wasn't the fastest that day. There were some people going for it. Thinking it's good, but the comparison in other people and at what point do you almost withdraw and say, "Okay, this is just me.

I'm doing it for myself." Because as you said, performance running, as you said, going from fast 5K to marathon is different, and it throws you. 'Cause it's almost like when you think about a type of work when you're a creative. You've got lots of small projects. You wanna do one really long one. And then you've got a really long project, and you're like, "I wouldn't mind actually a few short projects," right?

Dan Woodger: it's a really good comparison actually with work. I find the crossovers between running and work really pop up all the time, these similarities, because you're exactly right. , There is a, degree of competitiveness with, , when you're working on projects, and it's mad to be working on something that's like, I'll be doing a big crowd scene illustration for a client that I'm really excited about and I'm really enjoying working on it.

I'll flip Instagram open and see someone's done a absolutely awesome animation job, and I'm like, "Why am I not doing that? Why?" You're doing this, and then it's the flip side, right? You're doing an animation job, you see a really good crowd scene job that someone else has done, and you're thinking, "Oh, why?"

Like it's just, I think it's just a human condition, isn't it? , It's trying to catch yourself and make sure that that doesn't send you into some spiral. Realize that things are okay, realize things are good, and then focus on trying to channel that energy into something positive rather than a negative comparison and envy and jealousy.

Use it to fire you up and push you back into your own creativity, but it's hard. It's the same thing, both running and drawing, they are very similar in that respect. 

Radim: It was our mutual friend, Mike Schneid, who wrote book called Creative Endurance, which was initially called Runner's Guide to Creativity, and I really like the term that he coined, which is creative endurance.

It's, which is so aligned with physical endurance, like how do you prepare yourself for alm- almost every element, and it's almost like the element of self-acceptance, which is in the book, Daring Forever, which is inspiration for this season, which is the element of, , when you really accept that who you are, what you do, then try to find a curiosity and gratitude in that moment because, yeah, you can easily open a Strava, Instagram, whatever, and you're like, "Oh, wow, everyone's doing everything else, but I'm not."

But didn't realize, but they might be dying to do what I'm doing right now. I don't think there's ever the date when it stops, and you always try to find yourself going, there's more. Curiosity never runs out. This is the thing with curiosity. You will find what you're looking for. You find something that you haven't been looking for, but you always get something.

It's up to you to process that data. But what you did quite seamlessly was that you talked about illustration, crowd scenes, and running, and your project that you did in aid of Oxfam for the London Marathon, I think is, I think one of really excellent ways of displaying Daring Forever in a way that you created something that is ownable, it's your own.

it's creative. I would say it's quite socially responsible in a way, if that makes sense. It brings people together. What you create, it's something that you didn't have to do, and I think this is the best start for it because when you think about the magic, you're always on the other side of the uncomfortable.

And it's not only that you had to train for marathon, but you've decided to do something with no help of anybody else but only yourself to create this mum of crowd scene, which was based on the fundraising, based on a scene of London, and then people will be able to add their own characters to it.

I'm realizing I'm doing a really bad introduction to it, so I'll let you introduce the project properly. 

Dan Woodger: Yeah, the project was called Run London, Draw London. There is a set website for it, bespoke website called runlondondrawlondon.com, which you can go visit, and you can see the final outcome from this project.

But the gist of the idea was to create a crowd scene illustration that was sponsored by the people who were supporting me for the marathon. So you would donate, I set the figure at £5, so you donate £5 to add a character to this kind of crowd scene. Think like a Where's Wally type crowd scene illustration.

You pay £5 and you can add any character you like. So it can be yourself or someone you know running the marathon or anything, just a random character, anything you can think of, and then I will draw it into the scene. The challenge was that it could be anything, and then the idea was that with each donation, it would build up this huge crowd of runners and supporters on a image of the London Marathon route.

So I drew the entire tailored version of the London Marathon route that went past all the London landmarks, and then you had the crowd scene filled that space. And it was a bit of a mad idea because it required a lot of faith that the idea would work. The only way that it works as a piece is that if the crowd scene is filled.

So I put a lot of faith in the idea, and put it out there with basically nothing to show for it at the beginning. I had to start this project. The idea was that I was just gonna show something extremely raw and open. Again, I've been talking a little bit about beginning about AI and how I wanna show the creative process from a completely open book, this is how it all works.

These crowd scenes always only ever get shown at the end. I wanted to show how something like this is made in real time. And yeah, I did it in aid of Oxfam. So to take it all the way back to the beginning, I saw my brother run the London Marathon last year In 2025, and this is where the idea pops into my head, and I was watching all of the runners going by and just realized how many stories are out there.

Every person running by is-- You've got the whole kaleidoscope of life. You've got young, old, all races and ethnicities, people dressed as like the four guys dressed as the Mystery Machine from Scooby-Doo went by, and then the big, Big Ben guy like ran past, and then you've got club runners, and everybody is there.

And then the crowds as well, full of ev- all their family and friends supporting them, and it's just the most joyous... Anybody that's been to either watch or run the London Marathon knows it's the, the nicest that London ever is. Everyone is so happy. It's like a carnival all across the city, and that just made me realize that there is something in that as, as a project idea and as, as a fundraising idea.

So back end of last year, I applied to a few charities, but Oxfam was the one I was most keen to work with and to see if I could secure a place through a charity spot through them. And they agreed, which was great 'cause as an organization, they do... They tick a lot of boxes that I am socially concerned about, and I was pleased that they were...

They responded to the idea because I had to try and explain what this whole thing was. And on paper it sounds a bit insane 'cause I've never seen anyone do this before, this fundraising through a illustration vehicle. But maybe that brings me neatly onto why I was using the illustration side of what I do to fundraise because I have like something of a, a bit of an audience that follows what I do.

But I was trying to work out a way that I could en-engage that audience in my marathon effort. I didn't wanna just put up a link and be like, "Oh, I'm running the London Marathon by the way. This is completely unrelated to what I do, but I'm running the London Marathon. Can you sponsor me?" I was trying to find a way that I could engage that audience that follows what I do in the marathon effort.

And so I was thinking, "Well, if I do an illustration that is built along the way and show it as a journey, this might also engage those people that are interested in my creative side of what I do." In January, I launched the project, and it started in a complete blank canvas. I knew what I was doing, but I knew that for a marathon they usually say it's a 16-week training block, so I wanted the project to follow that.

In the December, I'd just moved house, so all of the planning, pre-planning that I'd done was taken up with moving house. So we got to January and I was like, "Okay, we're now throwing straight into the marathon, , training block. I need to get this fundraiser up and running." And there was still so much still to work out, but I knew that I just needed to start, , talking about it.

So I created a few videos. I was conscious I wanted to try and make a push into YouTube, which ended up not really working, but I was trying to log the entire thing, so I was showing me mapping out my idea. So I held up this, , stick figures of, , the London Marathon route, and then this is how you sponsor it.

And I was doing these big Instagram videos being like, "And this is how you can sponsor the project." And I was like, launched them out, and no one was paying any attention. You know what it's like, Instagram's You throw it out into this awash of, , people all shouting at you, and it just got swept up in the algorithm.

And I knew straight from the beginning that if this is gonna work, I just need to keep chipping. I just need to keep posting. I need to keep on about it. And I knew that the 16-week block would be just enough time for me to just keep going on about it and hold my nerve. And I just knew that there is something here, and if I keep at it, this will pay off in the end.

And so I was just kept talking about it. I just kept showing me building, , the base layer of the illustration and showing where characters would go. And then once one or two people started sponsoring, that's when I started, , really throwing myself all in. The first person actually that donated was

They're a company called Collectable Cities, and they make these beautiful little 3D model resin characters of, , London. Not just London, but they have Beefeaters and, , William Shakespeare. And they suggested a couple of their characters to be represented in the illustration. Every time anyone at the beginning sent me something, I was like, "Right."

And I made a big Instagram and videos about me putting them into the scene. And once people could see how the project worked, I think then that helped perpetuate it a little bit. 

Radim: Let me interject for a second. This is interesting because you said a word which connects all of this, and you said stories.

I've always admired someone who can be dressed as a toilet or, , a phone box or Big Ben run 40-odd K. I'm like, "How? How do you guys do it?" 'Cause it's absolutely incredible. The word story here is, I think is so important here because when you said Instagram doesn't really help you to do just a one-off, this is just a classic case of everyone thinking like, "Hey, I've just been on a hiatus a little bit."

And I know you're quite active on the platform, and you've got people who follow you, and they're quite loyal, and they're quite loyal to what you do. But is that one hit never really solves anything, right? Because as you said, you have to keep going, going, going, going and tell everyone because interestingly, I've seen a post from Austin Kleon the other day and said, "Look, I've been publishing books for 16 years.

I've got a new book, and as much as I can be sick of talking about I've got a new book, I've got a new book, I've got a new book," people say, "I didn't know you got a new book coming out." There's always someone who'd be like, "Oh, I didn't know this is happening," because in this noisy live space, digital space, everything, that chance of getting through sometimes is so minimal because it's, there's so many other things to see.

Your stories, how did you feel that, you know, when you unlocked that storytelling part of putting other people's characters in your map, it unlocked the connection with other people? 

Dan Woodger: I would love to say I had given that loads of forethought and that it wasn't a happy accident. It was a combination of the two.

I knew that there would be an element of, , if I could bring other people's stories into it, that would make the illustration more rich and interesting. But the unhidden thing that I didn't really consider was that when I was adding in the characters, I would tag them in Instagram, and then they would then be able to share that with their followers, and it almost, , widened the reach.

But it was really lovely to bring in these stories that I could highlight about what other people are doing, so it almost brought, , more people along for the journey. And when I almost, like, brought them- gave them a level of investment in making this work as well, which was really nice. They had invested enough to sponsor, but when they see that their character is now in this too, it almost brings them along for the ride.

And when I saw that that mechanism really worked on Instagram where I was highlighting the stories of people who were sponsoring me and showing how their characters were being added to the scene and then they would share those, I realized how much that extra attention that brought to the project, and then that switched a little light bulb on in my head.

What I had started doing was just waiting for people to sponsor, but then I thought, "Well, if I can reach out to people with some influence in the running space or in the creative space, that could also work. It can help bring these two genres together," and start reaching out to people who either were, , celebrities who were running the London Marathon or former athletes who had some involvement in the marathon.

And the first person I managed to get over the line, which is, , the biggest one, was getting Paula Radcliffe to participate in the project. It's all, this thing of I'd been building up to this project for a really long time, and I'll give you the insight of, , how I got hold of her. Last year, I ran the Great South Run, and I'd gone to an event with a run club called Running Late down at Southsea who we do a few collaborations with in terms of I make some T-shirts for them and things, and they have me down for some events, and they did an event for the Great South Run.

And at that, I met this former GB athlete called Christopher Thompson, who does a podcast with Paula Radcliffe. We got chatting, and he followed me back on Instagram. And then in my head, I was already stockpiling leads for things that I could do more in my project. Eventually came along, I was thinking, "Well, okay, great, I've got a connection to Chris and Paula now.

When it comes time for my project, it might become useful." And then when I suddenly remembered, "Oh, I've got Chris's mes- I can message him quickly," and I shot out a, , real shoot for the stars. And I was being weird as well. I was being purposefully weird. I was, like, being, "Hey, Chris, this is a really random question, but can I draw you?"

, Really odd message to open. Almost needed something that was a bit different from what his usual email messages and things were. And he got back to me and said, "Oh yeah, this sounds great. I'd love to." So they did a little feature of me on their podcast, and I managed to get those two in, and that gave This level of cachet that I could really now attach to when I was going to other people, I'd be like, "Oh, by the way, Paula Radcliffe's in this as well."

I gave it this extra element of legitimacy that this mad guy that was asking if I could draw them also had Paula Radcliffe, , backing the project too. So it wasn't just a complete weirdo, and that really helped. And there was two things happening here now. There was people backing and sponsoring the project and getting involved.

I I ended up with maybe 10 to 15 high-profile people, so ended up with getting Runfluencers, like the Running Channel are like a YouTube platform. They're big in the space, and there was, , Runfluencers Aubrey Mula and Callum Goddard. Then I managed to get Julia Patane, who is a pro athlete who ran the London Marathon.

I think she came... I think she was either fourth or fifth female this year at London just gone. So y- she won the marathon at the world at the Athletics Championships last year. But the, I think the biggest one that I managed to get out of everybody was the Ellis James and John Robins Podcast, which a shot for the stars with that one.

And again, it was a connection I had made that was tangential to their podcast, and he said, "Oh, I'll put in a word." And then Dave Masterman, who is the producer on the show, then emailed me and then the door was open and I managed to find a way to work my way in. And they ended up making a big thing of that as well.

They featured it on the show, but then they also included my illustrations in the feature they did of John and Dave running the marathon too. So there was this almost like I joined their journey as well, which was amazing. Yeah, it was really cool. 

Radim: What you're describing, it's almost incompatible with a regular way of being an illustrator because you normally would put out a portfolio up in the open and hope that something will happen.

You might make some noise, you might hope to go and get some press, but on a back of a project that might have a non-NDA attached to it, it might be free to do it. And I think generally, , you would hope that someone would come and find you, whereas what you've done, you've flipped it totally on, on its head and you've been thinking of just, just about cashing some possible leads and having a list of people who to go to.

Because when you think about it, , everything that you want happens when you ask for it. That's just a simple sentence. , Going after people and telling them that, you know, that you're there, that you're doing it, that you actually care about 

 And how did you balance all of that with training, young family, regular work, all of this stuff? It requires lots of extra energy and time to, to put into it.

So logistically, how did you do it? 

Dan Woodger: qu- don't know. I think I'll eventually look back on this and be really perplexed with how I managed to fit it all in. I do want to quickly come back to one point that you made there, though, about the reaching out and asking people for things because part of the reason I wanted to do this project in the first place, not only to combine my love of running and drawing and to raise some money for a charity that I really believe in, but I was also growing very frustrated with work.

, I had done some really, really big projects in '23, '24. They were NDA'd, so no one has ever seen them, and I was growing really frustrated with the way that I have been relying on work coming in has been via word of mouth and through people seeing the work that I've been doing for client projects, and when you can't share those, there was this real inevitable...

Because I was working on so much stuff that was NDA'd, people just stopped seeing what I was making, and it very much reflected in my inbox. , I definitely saw a slowdown, and I was looking to do something for myself that really showcase what I do, make a big splashy song and dance about it. But the biggest eye-opener of everything is asking.

I am been so guilty of waiting and sitting, and I've got an agent, and I've been letting them do their thing, and I've been chipping away at social media, but I have not been asking. It is true, don't ask, don't get. I started asking, and I started getting, and I-- Every time I was thinking, "Oh, this is really dark."

And don't get me wrong, there was lots of things that didn't happen. I shot messages at people and they never responded. 60, 70% of the time I got something back from it, and it's amazingly effective just asking for things and just being cheeky and just shooting a shot. I think it helps I believed in this as well.

I think it wasn't me just r- asking a random question. There was very much purpose behind what I was asking. But every time I felt like I shot for something, it came off. 

Radim: Absolutely, because when you think about it, it's a direct question about a direct thing, right? It's obviously like there's a purpose because you created a destination for people to have something to be a part of it.

Because what's really interesting, I recognize that as a problem that some people highlighted. People say , "Look, my work is under NDA. I've got no new work to show, therefore, I'm not getting new work." And I was sometimes think like, that's not your portfolio problem. That's your lead generation. That's your business problem.

When you think about it, because when you think about brands and companies that you get five emails a week from them saying, "Hey, we've got this, we've got this, we've got this, we've got this." Or you got tech bros trying to sell you their courses, and I'm like, they're always asking. They're always pushing.

They're always trying, like, no? Even Coca-Cola still advertises every day, you know? They still try to be in front of their mind. But I think there's something, , as a fellow self-initiated project creator, there's something about that freedom and that expression, and you can find in a way of like, "This is my project.

This is my ownership. This is where I can drive, and this is where I can do with it." Because it takes you to a completely different place when you started with it. You've got an idea, but it takes you somewhere, and you come out on the other end totally different. You've got a lot more to talk about. You can be yourself because you believe in this.

 That's why I wanted to talk to you about it, like how- You take an ownership, you hold yourself accountable.

You have to put in extra hours because no one's gonna give you extra money 'cause you wanna do this. It takes a lot out of you, but the outcome then, it's so worth it because of the, what you've created and just find yourself in a national newspaper. It's, it's a lot of friends, and it's gone pretty wide on, on Instagram and a lot of people got to know about it.

So from this asking and pushing, how do we put the mechanics between the idea, now we've got Paula and all the other people, and how do we take us to the finish line literally both ways, on, on the ground and digitally? 

Dan Woodger: When Paula Radcliffe did that shout-out on their podcast, they ended up having to explain, like, how to try and support the project, and it was wordy.

He was saying, "Oh, his name's Dan Woodger, D- Dan, W-O-O-D-G-E-R. You go to his JustGiving page." It was, like, such a leap to try and find who I was, and then it was then I was like, "All right. That's too many points of, like, dropping off to find me." It needs to just Ronseal it. It needs to do what it says.

I need something where you just need to go to a point so you can donate to me because this is just too many things going on here. I need a central point. I built a website, and luckily the domain name... I was sorting it Run London Draw London. It's not a brilliant name with a Ronseal in it, right? I was just trying to do SEO in, like, it d- does what it says on the tin.

They running London and drawing London, that's the, what this project is. And I just kept hoping that something might pop out that was better, but that stuck. And then I looked up and that was available as a domain name, so I bought the domain name and then I just spent an afternoon building a really simple website.

I, conscious about my use of AI, but I, um, into ChatGPT to be asking, "How can I build a very simple website? Like, I need some, a basic code. How do I go about this? What's a simple way in?" Within 20 minutes, half an hour, it gave me a pretty good simple site that I could just use, that I could get up in an afternoon.

And I kept thinking that maybe I would rebuild it or, , do something else with it, but it worked perfectly. All it needed, it was two things it needed to do, right? Just needed to have a central point, runlondondrawlondon.com, a place to donate, and then somewhere where people could see the illustration developing so that I could just post updates of where it's at, and it works really well as a device to focus a project around.

And by the end when we crescendo, so building up over the next few weeks towards the marathon, I was posting more and more. There are these things that, these engagements that kept happening where, I don't know, the marathon's getting nearer, so more and more people are talking about the marathon, and they're looking for content around the marathon and there was things that, oh, this guy's doing this project where he's drawing loads of people in it.

So I was getting more press. The Observer came on board and an art director from The Observer sponsored me and then said, "Hang on, I think-" We could maybe print this on marathon weekend. So there was an opportunity for people who were interested in the project to have themselves in the paper on marathon weekend in the illustration.

That was brilliant, that was amazing, but it was a bit tricky to manage in logistical terms because my idea was that I would stop donation deadlines on the day of the marathon. That would be when the last point to donate was the end of marathon day, because I had to tread this fine line between finishing the illustration and stopping donations too early.

I, I wanted to obviously raise as much as possible, but then I still needed to finish the thing. So I built this rough plan, this timeline where I would have the illustration finish at 11:59 on race day, and then I wanted it to be a one week afterwards. That's when I would get all the, illustrations into the final piece and then finish a k- a week afterwards because I just did not want this thing lingering on.

you run outta steam, you run outta momentum, and then people stop caring. It was a very conscious effort to try and get all these timings right. The Observer was interesting 'cause they needed that four days before the marathon, so I had to make, , a roughly finished version for that that looked finished on paper but still needed finishing off.

So there was lots of things, moving parts to keep trying to work out. But back to your question about how I fit it all in, I genuinely don't really know. My one-year-old daughter doesn't sleep. We have a busy family life and, yeah, training for the marathon as well. But somehow I think through the excitement of it all and the feeling that there was genuinely people backing the project and interested and engaged, it gave me that adrenaline to keep going.

Like, we can still do this. There is a, there is an end point here. Like, once the marathon's done and once I've finished this illustration, that's the end. That's the finish line. We can keep doing this. We've got time. we've got energy. We can keep at it. We can keep at it And the stories that were coming in were just, were that fuel that I needed, I think.

some of them were really heartfelt. Some of them were brutal. people who have lost family members, children. They're all in that illustration. And whenever I was feeling, frustrated or wiped out or tired, like, just thinking about the people that were invested in this project I think gave me that extra boost to get it over the line.

And then marathon, marathon day, it was hard. It was very hard. I've never run a marathon before. I'm a keen runner, but that was the first time I tackled that distance, and I got found out. 30K, cramped up and had to drag myself over the finish line for 12 kilometers, but it was incredible. Like, it was just the best experience.

And the same thing. They, why they're so well aligned, right, the illustration and the running, because every time I was either struggling with one or the other, thinking about all the people that were backing me or cheering me on or like whatever just kept me going. And I call them, like, I was calling them two finish lines.

So finished the first one, the marathon finish line. I got a respectable time. I was 3:51, which I was pretty happy with. But I think that I probably got more in me, but it's a first marathon, so I think it was never about the time with this. It was always about the project. And then the second finish line was getting those illustrations done.

So I took, I gave myself one day off, and then I dragged myself back into the studio and started, like, getting those characters in. And then by the following Tuesday, we were all done. So every character was added. I had to work my way through the list, make sure they were all included, 

Radim: I really wanna focus on the race because what you've been experienced virtually, you've been creating , the illustration of the race and you're thinking about the stories, and it was quite nicely woven into what you just said. And it's nice to think about when you feel tired, it was you put yourself in someone else's shoes.

But what was the actual feeling running through London? Now thinking, "My God, it's actually here now. it's happening." Because it's the euphoria, as you said, like London is the nicest ever on a marathon day because the energy that's there, it's giving me goosebumps now and I've haven't been for a few years, but it's so loud.

There's so much energy that even if you haven't got the legs to carry you, the crowd would carry you. So how was it for you, , on the marathon day? Was there any relief because obviously you still haven't finished the illustration, you haven't sent out the prints.

What was going through your mind on the day? 

Dan Woodger: There's just momentum that was just driving the entire time. Like, there was so many things going on that I felt like I had a really engaged audience that was following and willing me on for this thing. And little mad things, like I was trying to get a T-shirt made up so that I could wear it, so that I could rep the project, and even the adventure of I had to get it done with some mad company that, that

'Cause all the- I'd left it too late, and I had to get like a local c- business to print it out for me, and I was so terrified. They only gave me the T-shirt like two days before, and if it w- if it looked good, it looked good. If it looked bad, I was still gonna wear it. But it turned out great, and there was all these little things along the way that people were just engaged with about the whole project.

And then, it felt so good to be on the day, like repping this thing that I'd been working so hard towards, and bumped into people who had backed the project, or one guy tapped me on the shoulder at 10K in and was like, "You drew me." And then I looked and I was like, "I did," 'cause his wife had put him in, asked him to be in the project and told me what he was gonna be wearing on race day.

There's people from club runners, and I was recognizing their outfits and they were like, "Oh, you drew my friend Ellie. She's doing great." , There's all these things, like the people who saw me and had backed and got invested in the project and stuff. There was just something in the water that day.

There is just a magic in the air. I think that my race didn't go perfectly. I had, like I said, on 30K I had, cramped up. Like I felt a pop go in my knee and it- I thought my race was over and it turns out it was just like a really bad case of cramp. And then I had five or six cramp attacks between there and the finish line, but there is an intense, almost like the crowd, genuinely like pull you as you're running.

It's a atmosphere I've never felt before and it's relentless. It just goes the entire way. There is like an intensity that I've never felt because I usually run on my own. I usually run like in the woods. I usually run on towpaths. So to be in this funnel of noise for four hours is an intensity that I've never experienced before.

I can't really explain it. It's just a magic. And the maddest thing that happens towards the end, so I'm looking at my watch and it's a bit out of sync with how long is left, but I was like, "I think there's like about 5K left." And essentially my problem with all the cramping was I was dehydrated and I was making some really rookie errors by basically chugging at every water point 'cause I was gasping for water, and you're not supposed to do that.

You're supposed to sip often and little, but every time I got to a water station I was like, "Give me the whole thing." I was necking it back. And the last one, which I think it's three or 5K from the end, I went running up to this guy and I was like, "Thank you." And then I realized that it was Mo Farah handing me a bottle of water.

I'm just wondering whether I'm even like, at this point, completely hallucinating. I've lost the plot. But he was there. It was him. He was handing out water for Buxton. yeah, saw him. Missed my family somehow. Like they were, they were on that same stretch and completely didn't see them 'cause I was in this funnel where I was just trying to get over the line.

The feeling of finishing was weird. There is an account, or if you go on my Instagram, there is an interview I give with URTV and you can see I am shouting. Like I am shouting on this microphone because I'm so wired still. And then between after that and going to the Oxfam tent to see people, I- completely crashed.

I couldn't walk. I sat, I laid down. Elena from Oxfam wanted to do an interview with me, and I couldn't get my words out. I was just gone. So there is this weird, like, I don't know, almost like you... My body had been pushed to a point where I had never experienced that level of fatigue before. 

Radim: So this is interesting because there was actually an un- unlikely character who summarized it that when you go running, your adrenaline's higher, therefore everything feels faster.

It was actually, as an unlikely character, it was John Frusciante, the guitarist from Red Chili Peppers. He said, "If I would come back from a run and the music I would be listening to would sound faster," obviously there'd be more adrenaline. So I think what you're describing is just the classic of like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, it's, it's happening."

Dan Woodger: I am wired. Like, and then, yeah, the crash off afterwards was mad. My uncle came, somehow found me, I was just lying on the ground, and he just went, "All right, Dan?" I was like, again, like felt like I was hallucinating. I, I didn't even know you were here. How he found me, I don't know. 

Radim: When you think about your project was almost the same length of the preparation of for the marathon plus a month, some more longer.

But you would never had almost the checklist for yourself. Like, "Okay, I wanna be there at that point. And at what point do I need to have all of this collected?" Because life happens, people happen, stories happen, coverage happens. And you don't almost have the hold of what potentially could be the variables in this.

And in one of my training plans, which I really like, there's a mental strength module, and it talks about conquering the big mountain. how do you get yourself to the big mountain? So in your case, let's say the big mountain is the marathon or the project. And what it does, it says like, " Look, you've got eight weeks to prepare for this mountain," and it can go bit by bit, like what is it, how much you want it what does it mean to you?

And then prepares you for the situation, like what happens when you cramp up? What happens when you've got obstacles? What helps you do this? And when you think about it, in our creative careers, we see the big mountain as almost like a slide up. Like, "Hey, just shoot me up, catapult, take me there." And then you realize, nah, the bigger the mountain, the bigger the problems, right?

So in that case, if you knew everything that you knew 16 weeks prior, I'm sure you would do it, you I'm sure you would do it anyway. But is it sometimes better not to know what is ahead of you because that naivety and, and adrenaline gets you there instead? 

Dan Woodger: I don't know. I think there was definitely, the project in its fundamental structure needed it to go as well as it did.

Like, shot a big idea out here that I'm gonna fill this crowd scene with loads of characters. It needed to get that level of engagement to fill it in the first place. So it's a mad thing to have the self-confidence to go, "This is what I'm gonna do, and this is how we do it." Basically, I worked out that I needed to get 200 characters into the scene to make it work.

I laid all the characters, , stick figures out, and I was like, "That'll do it." And do you know what? I had considered that if it didn't get there, I would fill it myself or something. I didn't end up having to do that. If it needed, an extra 50 whatever, I could probably manage that, or 100. Or if no one donated, then I'd have to Tail between my legs, humble pie, didn't work.

I went to Jelly, my agents, the week before I kicked it off. We were just having a new year catch-up, and I hadn't told them about my idea, and I laid it all out. And I said, "Does this sound, insane, or do you th- it can work?" And they were really excited by it and said, "Yeah, we support fully go for it.

We'll do what we can." And they helped try and do some press release stuff as well for me, and we reached out to, , Creator Review and, people. But it was a hard one to sell into those companies at the same time. Sorry to go on a tangent, but because there isn't a, finished piece to go to these publications with, I'm almost selling, , a half-baked idea to them.

Being like, "Oh, I'm running the London Marathon. I'm gonna draw it as well. You believe me, right? But can you talk about it? Like, ' cause I need the exposure." But they were really hesitant. Creator Review were really... liked the idea, but they said, "We're happy to feature it afterwards." It's Nice That never returned my messages.

They said they initially gave some very positive, being like, " Oh, yeah, this sounds good. This, like, the kind of thing we'd like to talk about." But never responded to a single message. Creative Boom gave me a shout-out quite early on, and I was still working out what the project was even about at that point.

But I think it just went as well as it could have done. I could have maybe tried to make a better plan or whatever and have, , the things in place, like the website and roadmap to how I got to the finish line, but I think almost the chaos and the rawness of it showed how these things work when in the reality of life I've got two small children.

I don't have the luxury of, being able to spend enormous amounts of time planning. I've got clients. I did a- actually quite a big project for Uniqlo during this whilst I was going on, so I was managing that at the same time. I just had to get on with it, work- work out those obstacles as I went, and I think that's the only way you can do these things.

Radim: I'm absolutely admiring how much extra effort goes into actually making it work. Because it's one thing is to put the fundraiser, one thing is to get some submissions and then draw it, but all the extra activity to actually make it successful, it's almo- happens almost away from the piece.

Because it's like, you know, as you say, you're asking for press features. You push it. You wanna get it as in front of as many people as possible, and it's so fragmented. It's so many things that they are the outer layers that potentially can create the atmosphere for it to exist before it can even happen.

And I think that tenacity and that endurance in that, it can potentially only come from a runner if I think about it. Because it's... there is a lot, and I can tell you obviously after, you know, 10-plus years of publishing books, the process never gets easier. It just gets a bit more longer, difficult. Some, some parts get easier, but sometimes you're not ready.

Sometimes life happens, things that get in the way. , It's that obsession and the belief that what you're doing is something that's really part of yourself, part of your soul. That, "Okay, this has to go out. This has to happen." Before I let you go, Dan, I wanna know where you're gonna take it next because I don't think you're done.

Dan Woodger: No, I should round off the Run London Draw London experience by saying that there is a full case study if you wanna go check out more of what I've been speaking about on my YouTube, and there'll be a link to it on the Run London Draw London website to see everything that I've spoken about here. But the key thing that I want to bang on about is that we ended up raising over 5,000 pounds for Oxfam in the end.

And the initial goal for whenever you take on a charity for London, I think they usually give you about 2,000 pound target, which is massive and really scary. And I think one of the reasons why I Dove so head in 'cause I was so terrified about not making that number. They don't really do anything if you don't quite make it, but they want there to be an ambitious target 'cause it's such a big event.

And to, to come out the other side of this and have raised f- over 5,000 is crazy and just anyone who listens to, who backed the project or, or was involved, I'm really grateful. Really grateful. Means a lot to me, especially for where the money's going. So that rounds off that one, and it's opened my eyes to that what good it can do, right?

That what doing something like this can do, and I love raising money. With being a parent, comes with all this mad chaos where you open and you read these terrible things, and you almost feel guilty for then closing your phone and watching Bluey or closing your phone and going running around the garden.

Like, , It's a weird juxtaposition that , th- there is so much horror going on out here, but right now I'm drawing a unicorn with my daughter, and it weirdly creates a space in your head that I had no idea what to do with. Using the things that I'm good at or enjoy doing, running and drawing, to raise money gives me an outlet that I can show up in the best way that I can to do something that means a lot to me.

So I'm not done with this idea of bringing these two things together, and I think that the project, broadly, the way that this worked, has potential, right? That there, there is opportunity for a round two. Run London Draw London was the first one. Is it another city? That could be exciting. And I'm actively looking at ways that I could make it work, but I'm, I don't want to do it lightly either.

, This is the difficult second album, and it took so much effort, this first one. I wanna make sure that if I do do it again, I do it with the same level of intensity and commitment. So I'm making sure that I give myself enough time to recover and build up again so that I can take it on with the same level of dedication.

But yes, definitely actively looking for ways that I can partner as well with brands or with organizations that could help take off some of the burden of me doing it all myself, 'cause this was really DIY. This was fully me, and if there's any way that I could have the exposure of a running brand or a sponsor for one of the events to partner with me to help facilitate some of the things, like the prints I did all myself.

I used the money I took, money I made from The Observer double page spread and put that all back into printing and shipping costs for the prints. And I all did it all by hand, delivered the prints to myself in the office that we share, and then bagged everything up and sent it out by hand to the post office.

Those things came out of pocket. If there's a way to help s- facilitate some of those things in a way that other people could cover those costs and help me take some of the burden off, that'd be amazing. But all things to work out for the next one. 

Radim: Absolutely, Dan. I mean, I've got no doubt that this is gonna have the, uh, difficult second and the third easy album because I'm looking at the piece again.

There's so many amazing characters in there. It just feels, lives and breathes, and I think you brought so many people together and created something bigger than you ever thought, you know, at the beginning. And I think the most important part that you've shown here really is, asking. You know, you've asked yourself to go the distance on the ground in the streets of London,

you also ask yourself to go the distance when it comes to this project, and, you know, if there's one takeaway, it's just ask every possible question and never shy away from asking some more because- That's where the magic lies on the other side. So Dan, thank you again for chatting to me. Uh, I look forward to witnessing the next project happening in life.

But yeah, nice one. Thanks for coming today 

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Speaker 7: Hey, thank you for joining me on this episode of the Daring Forever podcast. As always, I'd love to know your thoughts, questions, and even suggestions, so please get in touch via the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, Radim Malinich. The audio production was done by Neil McKay from Seven Million Bikes podcast.

Thank you for being here, and I hope to catch you on the next episode

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