In Episode 50, Radim sits down with Mat Voyce — type animator whose kinetic, character-driven lettering has earned him a devoted following and a client list most freelancers would dream about. What starts as a conversation about craft quickly becomes something more personal: how a self-described jack-of-all-trades with middle-of-the-pack grades found his calling through animated type, and how the pressure of building something real collided with the weight of anxiety that nobody could see from the outside.

Mat traces his journey from childhood TV binges and PlayStation nights to architecture illustrations sold as wall art, to the type pieces he built in the evenings while still holding down a day job — quietly constructing the career he wanted, frame by frame. He talks about the boss who saw it coming and gave him the conversation he needed to leave, the freelance runway he built before making the leap, and the daily discipline of stepping up his personal work each year so clients keep finding him.

But the episode's most powerful shift comes when the conversation turns to anxiety — and Mat's decision to go public about it. What he got back wasn't what he expected: an outpouring from designers and creatives who'd been quietly carrying the same thing. His honesty didn't just help him. It opened a dialogue that changed how he understood himself, his community, and what it means to show up fully in creative work.

Takeaways:

• Being a jack of all trades isn't a weakness — it's a toolkit in progress. Every skill you collect compounds into something no single-track path could build.
• The evening sofa session matters. Doing your own work after a full day's work is how you invent the future version of your career.
• Building freelance backing before you quit creates both security and clarity. When it lines up, the leap isn't reckless — it's ready.
• Knowing what jobs to say no to is as important as being good at the jobs you say yes to. Staying in your lane protects your quality and your passion.
• Personal projects are the engine of growth. Each year Mat steps his own work up — new formats, new layers, new challenges — and clients follow.
• Sharing your struggles in public can unlock the real information that therapy and Google can't give you. Community is the most underrated resource a creative has.
• Anxiety is gradual, cumulative, and often invisible from the outside. Recognising it early — especially with a supportive partner — is what makes it manageable.
• Medication isn't failure. For Mat, it was the first thing that actually worked — and the honesty about it helped more people than any type animation ever had.

Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic

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Mat: Yeah, it was unreal. And I had no idea how even some of my closest design friends have struggled with anxiety and I've had to try medication to see if it helps them and to improve them. it was eyeopening because again, you don't see that top level on Instagram and socials and it is like that Instagram versus reality, but not even in the sense of someone might be doing great work for great clients, but yeah, you dunno what goes on behind the scenes and you dunno what the reality of it is.

And if people keep posting out like the good stuff and all the positivity, then that's great. But you don't necessarily know that someone struggles with something and you can open up these conversations and these dialogues with people that you might have known for years, but you just never touched on that subject or that side of life.

And it's, eyeopening and it's reassuring and a really good thing. I think it really is. 

Radim: Welcome to the Daring Creativity Podcast, a show about daring to forever explore creativity that isn't about chasing shiny perfection. It's about showing up with all your doubts and imperfections and making them count. It's about becoming more of who you already are. My name is Radim Malinic I'm a designer, author, and eternally curious human being.

 I am talking to a broad range of guests who share their stories of small actions that sparked lifetime discoveries, taking one step towards the thing that made them feel most alive. 

 Let me begin this episode with a question. Are you ready to discover what happens when you dare to create? 

My guest today is Matt Voyce, a type animator who trained in graphic design, taught himself motion, and built a career most freelancers only dream about. He built it entirely in the hours nobody was watching. One evening at a time, he gave letters, personalities, emotions, and lives of their own until the brand started finding him.

 Six years in, his work is instantly recognizable. His personal projects outperform his client commissions for reach, reach, and he's become one of the most honest Voyces talking about mental health in the creative industry. In this conversation, we talk about a long game of sampling everything, knowing which job to turn down, why one public post about his anxiety gave him more real answers than years of therapy ever had.

 This is the final episode of this season, and we're finishing on a high. It's my pleasure to share with you my conversation with Matt Voyce

 Hey Matt. How are you doing? It's great to have you here.

Mat: Yeah, really good. Thanks for having me.

Radim: Yeah, it's great to have you here. you're someone who really stands out in their own corner of the internet with what you do, how you do it. I did promise myself that I won't be grinding a certain quote to death on this podcast, and since it's episode over a hundred and plus the market is only saturated.

If you look and sound like everybody else, I don't think you have that problem. For those who may have not heard of you and know your work and know what I'm talking about, how would you introduce yourself? What'd you do?

Mat: I'm a type animator who started out as a graphic designer who trained in illustration, but has combined all of those experiences to. Lead into moving type and to give typography and words and letters, personalities and characters, and to make them feel relatable and human and as if they have their own emotions as such, and that can then help trigger how you feel towards them and how you perceive them when you see them on screen.

Radim: I think we can just finish the interview now. It's just literally just beautifully said. Everything that you do, I'm like, thank you. don't think you can summarize it in any better way, but I love how you described the way you feel about your work and what you've combined together, because. I'm sure you would agree that in some of the instances, like being an illustrator, being a graphic designer, sometimes you go is this a destination?

Am I doing this thing right? Where is the future? Whereas the future that I see in the way that you do or the future that has become in what you do, has naturally lends itself to combine a lot of these things together. 

So in my habit of taking things back, how do we trace back the interest into graphic design, into illustration, into you beginning to do what you do now.

Mat: in school, graphic design was my best subject and my best region of learning. And that went through to like art college and then to university and I, throughout university I was very middle ground. I didn't really excel in anything apart from just being middle of the crowd.

And that kind of followed through to when I left university as well. Nothing really jumped out. didn't really focus on anything in particular. used to describe myself as a jack of all trades in terms of design because experienced advertising I loved to illustrate. I knew general graphic design layout.

And then as time progressed, motion soon became part of that like mass toolkit of mine. And as I got into the industry and got myself into design roles within teams and started learning more about the programs, I always felt like I would put my all into those kind of day jobs and to really apply myself.

to put myself forward and to try and do the very best each day. But then I'd get home after doing like a full day's worth of work and I just would feel there was more to get, there was more to have. So I would just sit on the sofa next to girlfriend, who's my wife now, and just start making something.

And it'd it started off as just like single letter designs and that then progressed into words and phrases, which I would essentially try and sell online to fund, like a side hustle. So trying to use those like day skills, but then make something of it for myself. And don't know.

I've never really fully known why type was the thing that chose in those first instances. I think it felt like it was the most organic thing for me to create, and I loved putting the words together and designing the letter forms, and it just felt very natural. And that kind of then slowly progressed and snowballed moved along my career and to different agency roles really.

Radim: When you think about it, it's only like in English alphabet. It's 26 characters plus numbers. When you think about it in the octave. Of music. There's only 12 tones or 12 notes and it's endless. And the way you portray these experiments and these ways of doing this the limitation is so vast, but the expression's even bigger because you can do so many things with it.

I want to ask you about when you said I was a middle ground, and I think what I'm getting from this is that there was a time of patience that you can be the middle ground and you realize there's time to learn and there's time to step it up. Because being jack of all trades, some people can see this a negative, but when you look back on it, that's exactly that.

The toolkit that you've been collecting together. Because ultimately that's got you where you are now. 

Mat: because I say like middle ground, when I was doing sports in schools and when I was growing up, like I would try every sport for a couple of weeks or a month and then move on to something new. So like I kept sampling all these different things until I found something that I really, enjoyed making.

And that was the beauty of it with design, that like I could transfer the skills from the programs to the next. desire in design, whether it was like graphic design or poster design or web design. So it made it easier to transfer those skills to try something else in design because it was all part of the same career path in a sense.

Like I could still work in the industry in different ways. And it just happened land how it did and the skills almost aligned perfectly and it just clicked together, which is quite nice because in university, I'd never really stood out against the crowd I'm not gonna lie, I wasn't the most enthusiastic in university.

I enjoyed my own time, which is how I am now. it felt like it was meant to be really.

Radim: I like what you're saying because the formative years, especially to people who are younger, the formative years now for so much more pressured, at least what I know from conversations from no social listening, the age of innocence is slightly. Lost because you either are aloof, antisocial don't really want to be part of it, or you are really hard driven or okay, I need to be as good as possible.

You blame university for not teaching you about everything because the job market's different. the freelancing is different. Like the world out there is the world on steroids. Like basically you're jumping on a really fast train that's moving faster than ever before and there is almost no time to dither in a way.

You can choose to dither perceive it that there is absolutely no time to dither, but in your way. It was like when you say wasn't exactly standing out or like my own's face. Looking back, you can be like, oh, maybe I should have potentially done something different.

Or maybe I've whereas it all turned out absolutely fine because it's a compounding effect of of all of those days and minutes and inspirations and the two weeks lacrosse. Let me guess what you may have been trying and I just, in all of that stuff, because. I think the reason why I'm pointing it all out is it's easy to be judging yourself.

That you're not spending every minute right now in 2026 correctly, whereas the journey is so long that actually spending any time in any possible way that makes you happy, it's a data point towards something that you and I are displaying. You are totally not a result of the mixture of all of the things that you've ever done and never tried.

And they're coming all together. So I think we live in slightly conflicted times, but we can look back and some of the journeys like yours and go, you know what, maybe I'll be okay.

Mat: yeah. Absolutely. I remember people that was on, that were on my course and who really really applied themself throughout three years and some have done amazing things and some people have dropped design completely. So I think it, was really meant to be, and I almost felt like at times I was playing catchup when I started to find the stuff that I like making.

I would do it every evening and that felt like the catchup period. And I don't think even if I'd applied myself to university, it definitely wouldn't have ended up how I am now. Because when I started to release things, a lot of things were tied around Instagram releasing videos and it wouldn't have aligned if I'd not done motion or had done motion in a different way.

Yeah, it was like catch up. But I'm glad I enjoyed university how I did, because it was great.

Radim: Yeah, I think the realization that we live our own lives, like there is no template that you need to be certain place, at certain time, because that's your next checkpoint towards something that you're meant to be doing. Because we are finding our ways in life, right?

 Because when you mention some people who are like exceptional that we're really good and they're no longer in design. I remember being friends with this particular cohort of designers down in Hampshire, and they were talented. Some of them are really freaking talented. Zero of those people that are no, graphic designers.

they're in retail, music and hospitality. Like they just don't do it anymore. And

I think there might be a certain way of, when you play the long game, you got so much more in your tank rather than burning all your matches early on and realizing that maybe there's something else to do.

So maybe that's a question of longevity, right?

Mat: yeah. Very true. Could well be, 

Radim: Yeah. So I wanna know what inspired you in the first place to pick up graphic designers? An idea luckily you didn't give it two weeks and moved on something different, but

what was the inspiration? 

Mat: I definitely spent a lot of time in front of the TV as a kid. Luckily did get outside a lot as well, but I spent a lot of time watching films and playing games games like the N 64 the snares, the PlayStation, and I played like PlayStation 1, 2, 3, 4, and I still do now when I have time.

So like those, I was really exposed to those early nineties films, like from quite a young age. Like I used to watch things that were definitely above my age group when I was younger. And that's definitely had an impact because. I still have like really vivid memories of watching some of these shows.

And I got into things like future armor at quite a young age, and I would sketch characters down. And I had a routine of watching The Simpsons every night when it was on six, on channel four, I think it was back in the day, and maybe it was bbc, it might have been BBC two.

It was a very long time ago now. So I was always into cartoons and motion and animation and motion pictures. So I always like to draw them at the same time get quite hands-on. But I think having that kind of around me focusing on the cartoony stuff and the animations and things so that when I went into education, my way of learning was always very visual based. It if I tried to revise for something and I just tried to write down notes and rewrite stuff, it just didn't work for me. Whereas if I had visual depictions of things like pictures or diagrams for example, that would really help me then learn and pick things up quicker.

So it was just that way of learning. Then helped me steer into the creative industries, because when I did eventually get into GCSEs, my two top subjects out of my 11 subjects were graphic design and product design. They were my only two A star or a subjects. Everything else was flat Cs and the odd D. So it was clear like that was the area for me. And I just then tried to follow that path through and it landed me in art school, which was obviously like the best thing I ever did because that then sealed the fact that I was gonna do design in some form. I loved that and going from doing mixture of science and English and psychology and going to art school where it was just pure design and doing different types of design every day.

I just felt like I belonged basically, and it was amazing. 

Radim: beautiful way to, put it like, when you you belong, because you can't manufacture that feeling that just has to be, and when you started talking about N 64 Futurama tv, movies, games, I'm like, oh, so that's why your work looks like the way it does.

Because it just I'm piecing together that late eighties, nineties onscreen graphics and. In a way you made it look cool now, because I sometimes look back at some of the things that they were I'm marvel in a way. what, how did they even do it? makes you remember of all arcade games and you just went in with seeing these boxes.

 I was there was something going on. Like, how did they make it? And now it I'm joining the dots for myself in a way of okay, that's the inspiration. That's the, some of the felt, like the filters, finishes, the, not execution. So it's really interesting to join those dots.

But you said you were watching quite a lot of TV and playing a lot of games. was that your hideaway space or was it just point of interest?

Mat: I think maybe a bit of both. It was definitely point of interest. I think it was my dad that got me into playing the PlayStation. He definitely brought it into the house and got me into it. And I think, again, with the films, my mom's not really a film buff, whereas my dad loves, still loves films and if I talk to anything, it is normally about what films he's watched now.

I think he definitely had a massive impact on that early part of my childhood. But then I don't think I've ever really spoke about this. My parents split up when I was 15, I think, which was quite pivotal age because I think I was going into GCSE or I was in GCSE. And I definitely remember after and during that period spending a lot of time watching TV and watching series.

Like I think I watched 24 with Jack Bauer, which was well above my age at the time and understanding. But remember sitting and watching that as I guess as a hideaway, as something to distract me. So that probably had a bit of an impact as well. But I did watch a lot of TV and play a lot of video games before the parents split I probably just relaxed into that more after that happened, 

Radim: Do you remember any of the movies that your dad showed you that inspired you in a way of storytelling?

Mat: I really remember watching page Master, which has got Macaulay Caulking in, and it starts off as live action, and then he gets pulled into this illustrated world where it's all motion graphics, but it's like cell animation. And I really vividly remember watching that over and over.

And there's also films I watched like Ghostbusters growing up. 'cause I was, I just loved Ghostbusters. It was one of my favorite films as I was a kid. So there's. I had that realm of, there was these animated films, but I also loved like the live action stuff because told a different side of the story.

It almost felt a bit more adult sometimes. So I got sample both realms of that, which was quite nice.

Radim: I am looking at Page Master and Google, and it's just there's pre Macaulay caulking in the round glasses and again, with some of the screenshots from the movie, it is oh, that looks like my voice is it's it's so incredible to see how much I'm not saying it had a direct impact, but you can trace the link 

between 

Mat: it.

did, yeah, I think it did. I think subconsciously it definitely, I've said this to people before I think subconsciously it was in my mind like without realizing, and that's where my my style has come from because guess your personal style comes from your experiences and what you've seen grown up with.

So that's definitely. It's definitely burned its way into my head somehow. And it's maybe just now revealing itself in this sense, animated type, 

Radim: because when you mentioned that you came home from a day's work when you gave your all, but you still came home needing more. Did you do something that resembled the work now or did you, was it more where you're finding your style and finding your expression, getting it all out?

I

 when you started working on your stuff that you felt like you have to do? ' cause that's it needed to come out. 

Mat: So I would never complain at my day job and I would never, there was some things I didn't always dislike doing. I knew when I was doing things in my day job that I didn't like doing web design and things like that. So when I would go home and do these personal projects, they were always very illustrative based because I loved illustrating.

And they started off with, I dunno, honestly dunno where I started doing personal projects. I dunno if it was when I started illustrating characters when I was younger, but I started off by illustrating things from films, for example. So some of the first personal projects I did were they were film locations from some of my favorite films at the time.

So I'd illustrate like famous buildings, for example. And they were like, really? they were almost like architectural illustrations. They were like really high spec, like really detailed. And they would basically just be like a front on view of the building of the Empire State Building or of the El Dorado in New York.

And I would illustrate this perfectly. And then basically then upload them and try and sell 'em as wall art. So for a period I had this really detailed line illustration style and that would follow through to doing things from movies. So I would illustrate I would illustrate things from my favorite movies as like little line illustrations or icons.

So it was very icon based as well, because I would create these little badges with these characters because I felt like when I was doing them with lines, they were much easier to draw. So it didn't feel like gonna draw them and they were gonna look nothing like. They're original characters.

So I would do like these badge selections or these sets of building prints and try and build these little passion projects and at the time. Originally I would put these, I would do these so I could put 'em in my portfolio so that when I found a job that I felt like I could do this all day because I knew I wanted to do it all day long the next role they would see my portfolio and see I knew how to illustrate and they could see how could then come into their team.

So that was the idea. And obviously over time that snowballed to then becoming, that could be a career, that could be a money maker, it could be something that could sustain me and maybe I could do it all day long. So it pivoted. But they were very like movie based totally different to what I do now at the very beginning.

Radim: When you were doing a portfolio building, did you know what you wanted to do and when you gonna start on your own? how long did it take you from creating some of the first explorations until you quit your job?

Mat: So it was, I had three design jobs. One was with a college working in-house. That was like a year and a bit. And then I got into agencies. So that was my first agency role was two years. Maybe just over two. And then my final role was just under three years. And then that came in just before COVID.

And then that's when I eventually left. But my portfolios were getting clearly more illustrative and that then helped me get my final role for an agency called Analog who were based in Leeds and leads and working there. that's when I was able to work on like custom type and character illustrations and really hone in and nail that style.

And I never even once considered looking for another job whilst I worked there. That's when it started to become like, now I have the skills and design style to then maybe go out on my own. So it was only in that last role that it felt like it would ever be possible because it just felt like it was the right time.

Radim: I love the fact that you decided to do this just before COVID because it says on your website now doing this stuff since 2020 makes your last six years not even six years, full completed years in the beginning of 2026. How busy have you been? Like you've created amount of work that it looks like some people even do in their lifetime.

There, there's commission work, there's your explorations, you've gone all in. 

 I would use Corina Lin Meyers quote, like it feels, I've come to my creative home and does feel like it in every single frame.

Mat: it was weird because I started freelancing when I was still working full time because I just, before COVID came in and like the, year and up to COVID, that's when I started releasing these animated type pieces. And they started off like super simple and really basic, but I was doing them quite often.

And that was them putting them out online was then bringing in pretty small freelance jobs. So I was working freelance for a year and a bit before I went and left my full-time role. And obviously all my friends at my agency role, they were following me on Instagram. So they were seeing the jobs were progressing, they were getting bigger.

 And Barry Darnell, the boss of analog, like the MD and the guy who created the agency, he could see it coming. I think he knew that I was. Going to leave because he could see the brands that I was working with. And there were sometimes getting inquiries at the agency and they were asking for my work.

So it was becoming a conflict of interest at times. And he knew it was coming. So I had a great chat with him as Lockdowns were coming in and basically just said to me where do you see yourself in the next year? Do you see yourself here? Do you see yourself going at it alone?

And I was very honest and I just said, I think I want to do this full time, this type animation. I luckily, when I did make that leap, I had a year and a half worth of freelance backing and projects almost funding behind me to then be like, you know what? if it fails in six months or eight months, then at least I've tried it, but I'm good for at least over half a year.

So it lined up pretty perfectly really.

Radim: But this is the thing, like if you got. Some security for at least few months ahead when you double down with certain amount of portfolio work. It's gotta work. It's gotta work. And I think what you've created, and again that phrase is the market is only saturated if you look and sound like everybody else. it does stand out on its own. It's just created something that, instantly recognizable, it's transferable to different brands. You're not locked into one style. Yeah. I love that you had a conversation with Barry, and I know Barry actually he's a nice guy. When just say like, where do you see yourself because you ultimately, you realize that you need to set some people free to do what they need to do to ultimately make the world a better place.

I know that sounds big, but that's what it is. Actually I can't look people down just because of your own selfishness going, look, we can make this work, or we can just let someone be who they need to be. 

Mat: I tried to never let the freelance affect my day job. because I loved the work I was doing there. It wasn't like some of the other jobs I'd had to do in the past where I wasn't always a hundred percent loving what I was doing, and I really loved what I was doing at analog, so I never wanted it to affect the day job.

And I thought it was worth, busyness wise, I am still a bit of a workaholic, but working all hours of the day and working two jobs is never fun and it just starts to take its toll. it was the right time having that security and also having a great relationship with Barry and the last boss made that whole transition like a thousand percent easier.

It really did.

Radim: Yeah. And I think that energy only happens to you once in your life. You know that you can work two jobs at the same time because you are transitioning, you're phasing hours. And I've well documented my way of, when I was doing that, when I established brand new as a studio, as my own thing.

And I remember like sleeping three, four hours a day for months on end, crying into birthday cakes and that kind of stuff, like being just totally broken. But you know what, that's the line that you need to cross in a way like that. yeah, From conversation I've had with many people, there are more sensible ways to do it. But ultimately that's also an option to do it because the energy will never be there again. Unless you've got something, you've got something really major in your life. But that's, I think that's the perfect alignment of the Venn diagrams of I've got energy.

I'm young enough, and I'm so excited and obsessive about what it can be that it's irreparable later, especially now in later age 

 with the work. So it's you had your back in, you had work with, you made some contacts, you were working, but how would you describe that?

The last five plus years have been, which I can only say it's a blizzard of color, non type shapes, everything in animation. It's just, it looks like a nanny. Like literally it's just, oh, whatever. You describe it like it's everything. It's multicolor, how would you say mean?

I mean you mentioned that you're a bit of a workaholic, but how did you find that transition to going, okay, this is me, this is what I'm going to do. I'm gonna put all my effort into this. ' cause it comes with a lot of heaviness in terms of running a business, iFLY, doing the leads. Like some people hate business, some people love business.

Some people on the fence with both of it. Some people are on the fence with both sides. But like how did you find it? With doing everything plus more.

Mat: I found it quite smooth. I was quite lucky. And I think because gone from working those two jobs and working full on, like freelance and full time when I had the gap to then go freelance and have almost have unlimited time as it were. it felt like very freeing.

There was some times where my time management has always been an issue. Like I take on a lot of work and I always I always say yes to a lot of jobs and stack them, and I'm never, I'm rarely working on one project at a time. Like even now I'm working on multiple projects. So there's always like this process of stacking, but I've always been very good at managing the priorities.

So managing what's needed now and who's been working with me first. And then delivering out the time between these roles and not letting it affect the outcome of the quality of what I'm producing. So it just works for me. And I like to be busy. I like to work on more than one thing at a time, unless it's like something that's huge and taken up all of my time.

But I like to take on jobs that I know aren't gonna just run me into the ground. I love a challenge, but I wanna have time to still work on personal stuff, which is why I also try and cram in now on top of fatherhood, which is throwing a lot of things out the window.

Radim: I have to jump on what you just said, like I'm taking on jobs that I know they won't run me to the ground. Okay. Matt, how do you know that? Because that's impossible.

Mat: I think I have not a system, but I have sometimes red flags that pop up on certain jobs. And I normally get that from, I guess conversations I have with the designers or the design directors or whoever it is that's briefing on the job. And it's normally certain aspects of doing type design making it move that I really lend into my style and it's why I normally get brought onto jobs.

But there's been some briefings and jobs in the past where it's been a bit of type design, but then they've also started to shoehorn in other things that I know I'm really not comfortable doing. And that's the point where I could probably do this and. it's gonna be really tough, like to do, and I might learn some things about it, but I don't wanna be doing this for every job.

I wanna stick to the type design and the type motion, and that's what I'm interested in. the passion they have for it the ideas they have involved, but it's just not right for me, basically.

 So, 

Radim: This is very mature. It's a thing to say and admit, like you don't. Want to go into unknown places because you can do a good job in where, you know what, you can add a lot of value. ' cause when you talk about, when they try to shoe on things, my personal favorite saying used to be like the clients, when you got diverse portfolio, they'd be like, all you can eat buffet.

It's just like we're gonna have a bit of a a Chinese chips and fried corn and some whatever sushi roll on the side. Oh, you can eat buffet. And just because we can smash it all together doesn't mean that we have to, or they can have to, but then you don't have to be drawn into it.

 I was very much a client pleaser. People pleaser. I was like, let's give it a shot. That was still my, initial. Working out time, like what you wanna do and what you don't want to do, I think in a way there's no right or wrong because some people would take it on and find a possibly new skill that they didn't know they had, but then what you, there's a value in what you do because you're ultimately looking out at the future trajectory of what you know, what you do, and what you want to do in favor of diversifying, because I think there is plenty more in the tank to what you've decided to do.

Mat: And I think that's it. Like I still feel like there's areas of type that I, have to explore and there's things I wanna learn. Like maybe it's like 3D type or it's frame by frame type. So there is other things that I wanna challenge myself to do. But I try to be quite straight up when it comes to, especially like client work and, knowing what I'm comfortable with.

And I do take on challenges. There are things that do challenge myself for maybe even pitch for at times. But it all revolves around type. And as long as the job stays within type and it's type design that's fine. if there's motion design, general motion graphics around that, like if it's transitions or compositions, then that's fine.

But the core of it is type I'm pretty damn happy with that.

Radim: You said the words I want to explore type. So I don't think I'll have a more chance to talk to someone about time than with you. So as I mentioned earlier, there's 26, 27 characters, and maybe I'm just not inflating it, but. This is a point of interest because you really narrowed your focus with limitations in terms of who are your players in your symphony, but how do you explore the world of type in a way that, obviously some of the stuff is branded, like obviously you work with constraints of the branding and stuff, but then it can take you to anywhere.

So the love of type, where does it come from? How do you explore it? As you said there's potential places where you can go and explore even more, but how do you never lose that interest in the subjects and in the shapes that can provide you with almost infinite ways of explorations.

Mat: Yeah, I have a style as such. And every year find myself going down a different path of, how I use type. And that is normally revolved around my personal work and the personal projects that I do. So for example, two years ago, I would've purely worked to, I would've worked to like a one by one format and there wouldn't have maybe been too many textures.

And there would've been a, limit as to how far I would take the type. And I'm trying to each year step that up. So last year in particular, I started to work at a wider format, which sounds just nothing like changing the format ratio of something, but working to this wider space gave me more room to work with like footage and to work with bigger type and longer type phrases and to work out how to fill this space more.

with that came. Find different ways to use motion graphics and composition. So it's stepping up in that sense, and what I like to do basically is a good example is the Super Bowl. So every year for the Super Bowl, I like to make a personal piece. And it started off as like single stickers that said like Super Bowl that I would put on GFI and see if they get used on Instagram.

And that then progressed slowly to doing like a pack of stickers. And then last year I made like a retro advert, which was like, it showed these different stickers that I made for the 49 ERs versus the Philadelphia Eagles. And it had transitions, it had footage, it had motion graphics and sound audio.

And it was a mini film. And then I tried to do it again this year and step up even more and not just focus on stickers, but focus on crafting Welcome to Super Bowl Sunday, animating each word that had different footages and levels to it and effects. So you can see every year I try to bring this up step.

And that then kinda feeds into client work because I share these online, I share them as perhaps projects on LinkedIn. And I then get into a phase of making this kind of thing over and over again. I have this now style for the next few months and probably rinse it.

I really will. People get sick of it. But it progresses me and progresses my skills at the same time. So it's nice and I bring in different forms of type in as well works because it's type, so it's like a win-win really.

Radim: I mean we are recording this just two days after the Super Bowl just happened, and I think what bad Bunny did is just, generational defining performance. You don't have to speak the single world of Spanish to know that what he did in 30 minutes it showed people unity diversity, geography to Americans what an experience and what a time to be alive because Yeah, don't think anyone who doesn't watch NFL too much would actually even bother watch the game because boy he created, I think it was just wow. And when, not just senior piece about what you did for Super Bowl, it was Oh my God, for self-initiated work.

That's the beautiful sandbox of actually not jumping on trends like some people do and unfortunately when people die and they start illustrating that people, and there is a time and place for this, but it sometimes seems like a bit of a bandwagon. Whereas I love how honestly you've been progressing this piece of work.

Putting so much effort into it is because ultimately you're creating yourself the pieces next few months. And I don't think people will sick of it because there's always a finding ways out of it. But I think it demystifies that fact that if you put work in your personal project, they come back to you tenfold 20, not twentyfold, if that's even a word, because it's removing yourself from the norm or from the status quo, and actually creating something new because our mutual friend Carl Wilkinson can testify to the fact that everything that he's done, that he was not supposed to do has led him to the things that he didn't expect would even be possible.

And I think in your case very similar. It's just you creating things because you're moving forward, you're inventing your future. Yeah anyone listening to this if I haven't seen it. Just look at your NFL stuff because it's incredible, because it feels like a commission work.

It feels dear man and care goes into it. You know that you put your soul into it and people can see it. And I think that's the beautiful part of this.

since we talk about social media and as you said that you started on Instagram with the videos and stuff quite recently you were very open about the fact that as much as you world looks beautiful, full of technicolor and moving type and beautiful colors and energy behind the scenes.

The world can feel and be quite different to anything but that you show on the socials. And I applaud you for being open and almost documenting the way that you have been deal dealing with your anxiety because. To more voices we have out there to say how it is and what people go through.

if I'm right, I think you said it was more popular than anything, like you had more engagement on the back of honesty and sharing than any type piece that you put out there. Is that right?

Mat: Yeah, it was unreal. And I had no idea how even some of my closest design friends have struggled with anxiety and I've had to try medication to see if it helps them and to improve them. it was eyeopening because again, you don't see that top level on Instagram and socials and it is like that Instagram versus reality, but not even in the sense of someone might be doing great work for great clients, but yeah, you dunno what goes on behind the scenes and you dunno what the reality of it is.

And if people keep posting out like the good stuff and all the positivity, then that's great. But you don't necessarily know that someone struggles with something and you can open up these conversations and these dialogues with people that you might have known for years, but you just never touched on that subject or that side of life.

And it's, eyeopening and it's reassuring and a really good thing. I think it really is.

Radim: how did you realize that anxiety is something that. Sucks. of fun out of your life that makes the work harder, makes your life harder. when did you realize that was a thing that was prevalent in your life?

Mat: I think at times it's definitely affected. My personal projects I was always very locked onto the fact that I can't let this affect my day to day, especially as a lot of it started coming out when we were essentially trying for children and the fact that I was gonna have to try and get a lid on this before we had a child because my wife can't deal with a newborn for example, or a baby as well as me trying to deal with what's going on with this because it would affect like my mood swings and my general tone.

And we always say in the house not if you like having to go at someone you like might snap at someone. So being like snappy back to someone asking you something when they're not trying to essentially incite an argument or trying to start an argument was what we noticed quite early on that I would be snappy.

just wouldn't have a positive outlook really. I guess I'm not a massive optimist like I never have been, but the pessimism it was just a lot it was intense, being pessimistic about just going out, doing day-to-day things, even about getting good design jobs.

Like I'd get a great brief or design job through and tell my partner and she'd be like, yeah, great. It's really good. And I'd be like, yeah, it's good. It's good. No optimism in it or positivity. So it definitely had its toll and took its toll on certain aspects behind the scenes in that sense.

And I don't think it got too intense in terms of affecting my day-to-day jobs, which is good. But yeah, behind the scenes there was definitely that battle there that was pushing and going on. So yeah, it felt like I needed to do something to get it under control.

Radim: is it something that has developed in later years or was it gradual thing that has developed and gone worse?

How would you trace it back? cause I wanted to know when was the moment, and it sounds like your partner's really caring and empathetic, looking 

after you and saying this is not you.

Who is this? that's really important, like for people to actually recognize it because you can be pathological optimist, which I would call myself in the past. When I would get every brief, I would be like, this is my chance to change the world. And guess what?

I ended up with lots of problems myself because I can't bring myself to the ground. But I don't think there's anything wrong being pessimistic because if you were to look at a world of philosophy, they say that if you pessimistic, you're more of a realist. But what I want to know is how did you realize that's what it is?

There's a way out or there's a way to deal with it? And how did you identify that potentially it's an anxiety and was it rooted in working in security or is it literally a pathological thing that potentially could be part of your DNA?

Mat: Yeah, it's definitely been gradual and it's has gotten worse as, don't want it to sound odd or bad, but as I've got more responsibility in life, especially with pets and children having those extra layers of stress and tiredness have definitely enhanced the anxiety I was always pretty anxious even from being like a young teenager.

Always quite have a nervous disposition. That was always just me introverted and quiet and being nervous about things and, I don't know. I always, I guess I always used to blow things out of proportion and get overly nervous about things that were beyond my control.

I dunno where it would've started, but I remember being always like nervous that if one of my parents was out for hours, if something felt like they were out for too long, like I was worried, like, where are they? Are they okay? Are they coming back?

Okay. And I dunno where that initial stress and worry came from or that anxiety, but I know it's that anxiety about things that have yet to come. it's still and has been the main kind of trigger or the main worry and anxiety point for me. So that echoing through to having a pet and having a child more importantly and are they gonna be okay as how are they gonna be, how are they gonna grow up?

Are they gonna be unwell? There's all these kind of, those levels and those factors where most people, you, you don't even think that far ahead. Like why would you just focus on the here and the now? Whereas for me, it's if I get inkling or a sense of something that could then trigger that feeling of could worry about this in the future.

That's where the worry and anxiety starts, and I worry about it now and I go down what I call So this is better now, but if I started to get anxious, I would think about the idea and then advance it and make it worse in my head and go down the worst possible route.

 And that's when it would like spiral and spiral. And that would then follow through to negative emotions 

Radim: And when you've been describing it's, it my now later age, I can start making sense of things that these kind of things happen compounding effect. As you said from your parents and say, spliting up at 15 like that, there is so many life events that can affect us with us even understanding what was really happening to us.

Because that fear of not knowing what might be, especially not having any control over it is can be crippling. And if, you don't make sense of it for a while some, sometimes it takes people 30 years to make sense of things. It's just if no longer, sometimes they never make sense of things.

And I think it's just that way of understanding and realizing that what, you going through, you're not the only person feeling like it obviously, like you being public about it and actually being openly sharing about it and discovering that you know what, pretty much everyone's the same like it because.

It can feel to people who haven't really got to that point. They can feel like I am the only one suffering with this. Because let's say you with your partner now, your wife, and she'd be like, she can seem like she's got it together, right? Because she doesn't feel the same way. You're thinking why I'm the only one feeling like this and will I ever be okay?

And then you realize, you know what? Everyone feels like this. Everyone's good. There's something everyone I've never met anyone who would be like, yeah, you are a hundred percent fine. And because there's a tone and color to our uniqueness.

when you realized that you're not the only one feeling like this, when you started looking at solutions, what was your first move to. Remedy towards the next way of feeling better.

Because anxiety is a bit like fear. you can never stop it, but you can manage it. You can find ways get on top of it. So what did you do in a way of finding some solids and solutions?

Mat: for a long time, before I went more public with the anxiety posts, it was only really my close family and my wife that really knew that I was that anxious and having many kind of worries about things. And I tried therapy like CBT for a while, but it was nice to talk about it and get it off my chest talk someone who was com completely unbiased and could help me talk through it.

But in the long run I don't feel like me talking about my issues and my problems really helped change anything. Like I've been given coping mechanisms in the past and ways to try and things like breathing exercises and roots thinking about things And not letting it spiral and being realistic about things, but it's just never really helped. So medication was the last resort for me because if that didn't work, then honestly I don't really know how I was ever gonna really get on top of it or solve it because talking just not helped me.

The coping mechanisms have not helped. I can talk about it in my head, but then I can just be triggered or I can think about something and my mind switches again. So it just never helped. And dunno really know where I heard about medicine before, but I just, I talked to my GP tried me on, one medication and I started in October and it's been like a long process. And the great thing about saying it publicly was that you can Google things all you want. You can Google like how long it's gonna take to kick in, how would it make me feel? But this Google, and most of the time now you're getting given like the AI answers, which summaries of, and it wasn't real information that I felt was like palpable or information that I could almost count on.

So when I put it publicly and I got real advice and real information from more so creatives who were designers who had similar thought processes to me or who were creative individuals, when I had that information, that felt like it was a game changer. And I'm so glad that I released that out put that out there because.

I would've just been Googling stuff and just going down those rabbit holes instead of getting real information from real people that I respect and care for and know and can rely on. So it was an absolute game changer for almost like self medication in a way.

Radim: I am so happy that you did that because what you found and what's come back to you as a result, must have created some sort of relief and some sort of liberation in that situation because you realize that, A, you're not alone, and B, you actually get more information out of it. Because I wanted to know at the times when you did CBT.

Did you in any way look at the way of how much you work and how much you structure your life? And did you run any sort of audits to it or was it almost not related to hours of working or amount of work that you've got on? Because obviously that puts an invisible strain, physical and sometimes invisible strain in, in terms of stress and make things worse.

So did you look into the ways of already seeing your life and your work?

Mat: Yeah. To a degree I definitely did because obviously the anxiety stepped up each time something big. There's big life changes you have, like there was a point where I was moving house, I'd moved house and that's when I went freelance not long after then. So there were certain aspects of events that I knew almost triggered me and I have alopecia and I only get certain patches.

Like it's only ever come out. Basically. It comes out like every half a year for me. And it's normally triggered by like a stressful event six months prior. And some years I have no alopecia and it's great and it only ever affects the back of my head and the side of my head. Never the top or the front.

And it starts off as like little patches and. It was specifically worse when I moved to Leeds and I moved in with my partner and I moved to my first agency role. ' cause that was a lot, there was a lot going on. I was leaving home and it started off as I would have like thinning of the hair and for three and four month period, I just had thin and hair.

So I just thought maybe I'm just receding. This is it. I'm gonna lose these luscious locks. Now it's over. And it came back and I was like, all right, great. And then another six months went by and I started getting these patches and it started, it came almost like I almost lost three quarters of the back of my hair on my head and went to the doctor and found out it was like alopecia.

And we tried to work out where it came from and it turned out the most obvious option was caused by like anxiety or stress. That's almost been like a warning sign as well, that like things progressed and gotten worse and. It's nice to say over the last few years it's decreased.

It really has like the amount of patches and I can really stay on top of it now, and it's a lot better. it has those other, those triggers and those other stresses that triggered a lot within me. Clearly.

Radim: the events that you described, just life. They're not necessarily like some of the most traumatic like grief or loss. They're just life. And we are all built differently. If we got a similar, what I call the vessel, we got a similar vessel to all of us. We've got body we've been given and it works in certain ways that we can inform ourselves and understand why the fear anxiety can come to us and what does our brain does to you?

then, and we step in as the driver go, we're like, okay, this is me. This is where I am. But ultimately, that curiosity of life that we come to it's not given that we have the same reactions because everyone. Is different in a way. And I've been learning about this, thing called pathological demand avoidance, which is a type of autism.

 And it's about a fact, like how you can start spotting signs in And I'm doing air quotes so many normal people because we all have something like no one is a hundred percent. And I've been trying to think about for example, creatives, like how we and words are fucking, hey, it's changes.

Like especially a certain time of your life, especially when you're that sort of selfish initial stage. You're like, I don't want to do this. This is this, and are you threatening me? To some people, a plumber or someone standing on like a hundred foot tall structure doing welding. Like what you worried about?

Just make the changes. to everybody, this is just a different experience of life. And it doesn't mean that just because that's okay for lots of people doesn't mean that should be okay for everyone because we are all made differently. And I think this is that realization and that deep breath and relief going you know what? It's not ideal, but this is me. This is the fact that I'm living this life and I'll find my way through it. And the more you talk about it, people, you're realizing that we are so overlapping around the edges with everybody else and being open. I just, and I really salute you because a I didn't know this about you before you started posting these posts and it was greater than see you early on when you started the medications, when you come to our dinner in London, to just have that shared feeling and be in a room with people and going, you know what?

Life is what it is and we are here for one another and just sharing this. Yeah, so for a play to you for tackling head on now and hopefully making progress and being open about it because when you realize that all of the creative stuff that we do and all those know lovely shapes and colors is ultimately when we connect together as humans on the human level, is actually what makes all changes.

So how are you feeling now? how is things are going in five months later?

Mat: yeah, it's definitely better. I definitely feel more optimistic. I'm a massive overthinker, like that kind of ties in with the whole anxiety and going down rabbit holes. Not when things have maybe triggered me in the past, like if they're happening now, I might think about it for a second, but I'm not then going oh, what if this happens?

What if this happens? So it's definitely almost quiet and that part of my personality or my brain, which has then helped. And I have found, it's made me a bit more assertive as well, which is nice because I was never assertive before. And now if something's in my head, it comes out of my mouth easier.

Whereas before I would just be so damn quiet and I, if I had a thought, it'd just stay in my mind. Whereas now if there's something there, it comes out, which is nice. So it has changed aspects of my personality for the better. I think. I really do think it is for the better. Overall good place and from what I've heard from the community outpouring is it just gets better.

You just maintain and you just constantly improve and just do you and, keep positive,

Radim: I like that you say it gets better. 'cause it never goes away. The problem is it never goes away. And when I did my anxiety CBT coaching, all of that stuff, when I was told you can't get rid of fear. And I'm like, wait a minute, I've just been six months talking to you about fear and it doesn't go away.

But then you realize it's just a natural human instinct. we've been hardwired from our ancestor predecessors like This is how we have survived to be here and certain things just trigger us. And this is why I feel like it's so important to understand who we are, how we work, how we operate.

 Because it then makes bit more sense because I think there's nothing worse in the world that when you feel, when you say like overthinking anxiety. fear, insecurity. it's, crippling. But then I think we are lucky at a, in this position that we can actually use creativity as this of hideaway spot that can give us, make, we can make sense of the world a little bit and actually find a sense of community with who we are, who have we got around us in that respect that we can actually share and find a common expression, all of this.

And make a sense of it. Because I think if anyone ever feels like this, speaking out, especially to those who know you and support you and understand. You can do sometimes a lot more than any therapy with a stranger. Because what I've learned recently from all of the books about PDA, the, it's the therapist that can help you.

Matt, it's been a pleasure to talk about this. I know that sometimes it's, it can feel like a really dark spot whoever listens to this, and there's lots of people listening to this show around the world, I always find that the most transparent, honest, and frank conversations go so much further than any others, because it's ultimately what brings us closer.

So thank

you. 

Mat: thank you for having me. It's, always nice to chat and just to share some things that you don't always get to talk about day to day or that you've not shared before. So it's always very cathartic and therapeutic for me, talking about the anxiety as well, which is nice.

So thank you very much.