In this deeply personal conversation, acclaimed artist and author Oliver Jeffers shares his unconventional journey from aspiring fine artist to internationally recognised creator of picture books and public art. Known for works like "How to Catch a Star" and the profound "The Fate of Fausto," Jeffers discusses the challenges of working across multiple disciplines in a world that often demands specialisation.

The conversation reveals the reality behind creative success—the constant self-doubt, the struggle to balance artmaking with parenthood, and the evolution from seeking external validation to finding internal purpose. Jeffers speaks candidly about operating between two studios (Northern Ireland and Brooklyn), the exhaustion of juggling multiple projects, and the precious window of time spent with young children.

Throughout, Jeffers emphasises the importance of persistence, the power of simple communication, and the courage to be "violently yourself" in a noisy world. His insights on creativity, from the technical aspects of bookmaking to the philosophical underpinnings of artistic practice, offer both practical wisdom and profound reflection on what it means to be a creator in the 21st century.

oliverjeffers.com

Key Takeaways

• Persistence over perfection: "Be the river, not the rock"—find alternative paths when faced with rejection rather than remaining rigid
• Self-reliance is essential: The greatest secret to creativity is "you only get out what you put in"—nobody will do the work for you
• Embrace the unexpected: No artwork ever turns out exactly as envisioned—use this as conversation and opportunity rather than disappointment
• Multi-disciplinary careers are possible: Despite industry pressure to specialise, Jeffers successfully operates across fine art, children's books, and public sculpture
• External validation is a trap: Moving from seeking approval to internal motivation is crucial for authentic creative expression
• Simplicity communicates powerfully: If you can explain something to both a child and grandmother, you've found the communication sweet spot
• Self-doubt never disappears: Even successful artists "marinate in existential self-doubt"—it's part of the creative process, not a sign of failure
• Protect time for thinking: Mental space is as valuable as studio time—sometimes sitting and thinking is more important than producing
• Parenthood changes everything: Balancing creativity with family requires accepting different rhythms and shorter, more focused work periods
• Be "violently yourself": Authentic self-expression eliminates competition and comparison—your unique perspective is your greatest asset
• Communication over craft: Understanding whether you're creating for personal expression or to communicate with others fundamentally shapes your approach
• Children are sophisticated audiences: Never underestimate young people's intelligence or ability to handle complex themes and emotions in age-appropriate ways

Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic

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[00:00:00] 

[00:00:10] Oliver Jeffers: do you like messy art or do you like neat art? And, they, you know, we were having this conversation and Esther and I both realized like, you know, I used toreally like neat art, but now I like messy art. And why is that? And is it because  in my youth, sort of coming up through the twenties, I was craving, control and craving,the predictability.

[00:00:29] 

[00:00:29] Oliver Jeffers: whereas now I have control and predictability to some degrees.  I am missing chaos. and so that's why I'm resonating to that. But in, my work itself, you do kind of become. not a slave, but you enter into a contract with your own ability. And so there's, I'm not interested too much in completely reinventing my style for the sake of it. 

[00:00:55] Welcome to the Daring Creativity Podcast, a show [00:01:00] about daring to forever explore creativity that isn't about chasing shiny perfection. It's about showing up with all your doubts and imperfections and making them count. It's about becoming more of who you already are. My name is Radim Malinic. I'm a designer, author, and eternally curious human being.

[00:01:18] I am talking to a broad range of guests who share their stories of small actions that sparked lifetime discoveries, taking one step towards the thing that made them feel most alive. 

[00:01:29] Let me begin this episode with a question. Are you ready to discover what happens when you dare to create?

[00:01:44] My second guest of this season is Oliver Jeffers, who likes to tell stories and ask questions. A world renowned author, artist, and storyteller who creates fine art mostly for adults and picture books mostly for children. [00:02:00] He often explores curiosity and humor as underlying themes. In our conversation, he reveals the reality behind creative success, the constant self-doubt, the struggle to balance art making with parenthood, and the evolution from seeking external validation to finding internal purpose.

[00:02:17] Oliver speaks very openly about. Operate in between two studios, one in Northern Ireland and one in Brooklyn, and the exhaustion of juggling multiple projects and the precious window of time spent with young children throughout. There's a theme of emphasis on the importance of persistence to power, of simple communication, and the courage to be violently yourself in a noisy world.

[00:02:40] This episode was produced in association with Parod Festival and is my pleasure to welcome Oliver Jeff.

[00:02:54] Radim Malinic: Hey, Oliver, welcome to the show. How are you doing today? 

[00:02:57] Oliver Jeffers: Thank you, Adam. I'm keeping all right. Thank [00:03:00] you. 

[00:03:00] Radim Malinic: Fantastic stuff. It's great to see you, and

[00:03:02] Oliver Jeffers: how would you introduce yourself? 

[00:03:05] Oliver Jeffers: how would I introduce myself? an artist and a storyteller and a spokesperson I suppose. so primarily known for children's books, but, equally known in different realms for the, fine art gallery work, some large scale public sculpture work.

[00:03:20] Oliver Jeffers: and then just being very outspoken on the issues of, conflict disunity, climate, social justice, things like that. 

[00:03:27] Radim Malinic: I think it's a fascinating story because 

[00:03:29] Radim Malinic: you wanted to be fine art painter. But now you see yourself more as a communicator artist rather than, you know, craft artist. 

[00:03:37] Oliver Jeffers: Yeah, well, but you know, they, I think there's plenty of fine art painters who are communicator artists. That's just like the, I think, and you probably heard me speak about this at the don't book shop, I think where, you know, understanding why you're making the work that helps point the direction that you wanna go.

[00:03:52] Oliver Jeffers: And whether it is you're a graphic designer, whether it is that you're a fine artist, whether it is that you're making children's books, I think understanding whether you're doing it for the [00:04:00] craft or you're doing it to communicate a failing there can be two quite different, modes in and sense of understanding of why you're doing it in the first place.

[00:04:09] Oliver Jeffers: So while, yes, I did wanna start off being a fine art, gallery artist, I still do that. but I. Kind of siphoned off into making kids books and doing all these other things. And I suppose just as,opportunities presented themselves, or I, went along with tangents that seemed to be a good idea at the time.

[00:04:27] 

[00:04:27] Oliver Jeffers: the future, I could never have written it like this, but I've followed multiple paths simultaneously. and it does mean that I, I suppose I kind of operate under three different career systems, three different industries. but I always said to myself, I would just keep going until somebody told me otherwise, and nobody ever has, and even if they did, I don't think I would listen to them anymore.

[00:04:47] Radim Malinic: You mentioned multiple parts. Did you ever feel. That you needed to focus on one or the other, because that's sometimes what the society wants you to do. they want you to sort of double down and do one thing and do it well, 

[00:05:00] Oliver Jeffers: it's funny you say that, like when, whenever I was starting off in graduating from university, how that was like in the late 1990s, like right around the turn of the millennium.

[00:05:10] 

[00:05:10] Oliver Jeffers: and it, there was this understanding that artists did one thing and so you couldn't be a multidisciplinary artist. Those were not taken seriously. you were a conceptual artist. You couldn't do anything that was figurative even though, you know, that was within the art artwork. But it was way stricter for things like, you couldn't, dare possibly think of being a painter and have kids books same time.

[00:05:32] Oliver Jeffers: That was just not done. so I did run into a lot of difficulties whenever I started off being a fine art painter. And then before graduating, I, had an idea for a kid's book. Decided to go about getting it published. And that happened. So then when I was graduating, while getting published and, that, that process happened fairly quickly.

[00:05:51] Oliver Jeffers: 'cause I kind of did my research and went about it. And, publishing is much more straightforward as an industry. But then whenever I went to start trying to get shown in, gallery [00:06:00] land. I was just meeting a lot of closed doors and a lot of closed minds. 'cause pe once people realized that I was the same person who was making these kids books, there just wasn't that much interest because the, you know, that, that's just not what people did.

[00:06:11] Radim Malinic: Yeah. I think there must have been quite a few chin stroking, people in your way going, nah, no, this is not what you do. 

[00:06:16] Oliver Jeffers: Yeah. But it, all it takes is for one brave person to validate you to say, yes, I think this person is good enough. 'cause often, you know, the, 'the ad industry is full of people just justifying their own jobs, can you make it a bit more blue?

[00:06:29] Oliver Jeffers: Why? I don't know, because I wanted to say something. and gallery sort of showing, already established, already verified artists rather than somebody taking a risk on somebody who's never shown anywhere before. It's very difficult to kind of break the ice to get that first toe in the door. and you need somebody to open the door slightly for you to do that.

[00:06:47] Oliver Jeffers: but that's a very important relationship and every artist has somebody who gave them their first chance. And it's, I suppose after that, it's what you do with it. 

[00:06:54] Radim Malinic: Would you describe, it always reminds me of those famous words by Ethan Hawke, by when he says, give [00:07:00] yourself permission to be creative because you, more or less, you figured out when you were working on your first book, you didn't even know that was a book because you wanted to do series of paintings.

[00:07:07] Radim Malinic: Then you realized it, potentially it's a book. You worked with a local printer to print a hundred copies of your sort of demo and sent it out to publishers. I think that already shows, you know, a way to actually go in and get something that you want from the world and from life rather than hoping. You know what, I think I've got a concept for the book.

[00:07:26] Radim Malinic: Who's gonna publish it, 

[00:07:28] Oliver Jeffers: Look, it's, there's a lot of people with a lot of bold ideas and bold ambitions. And I think there's something that's happened where the Hollywood ification of, you know, if you want something badly enough, if you deserve it, and people operate on that mantle, that no, I'm really want this, so therefore somebody is gonna give it to me somewhere along the road.

[00:07:47] Oliver Jeffers: I deserve this. But it's not, that's not how it works at all. It's you've gotta work harder or be better than everybody else. And so it is not really this idea of, we're all equal. Everybody deserves a chance. It just, the world simply doesn't operate like that. and I figured [00:08:00] out very early on, though, around the time of my last year, of our college, the greatest secret that, I think to being a creative is, or actually to being a person, is you only get out what you put in.

[00:08:11] Oliver Jeffers:  if you want something, nobody is going to do it for you. You have to do it yourself.  And then another, important thing that I've learned from that is no, doesn't necessarily mean. No, this project is not gonna happen. A no might just mean I haven't read it properly. I'm too busy, not right now.

[00:08:25] Oliver Jeffers: keep trying. and if you get three no's in a row, maybe then it is a no. But that just means that route is closed. There's other ways to go about getting whatever it is that you want to accomplish, accomplished. and I've thought about that, you know, the stubbornness in a lot of artists and they're sort of like the rocklike mentality of I will not move, I will not bend.

[00:08:43] Oliver Jeffers: I will stay here and say, and do my thing. And, you know, screw the word for not recognizing my genius. but if you look at a rock that's in the middle of a river, it will eventually get eroded away, whereas the river will find the path through the sea. It'll find [00:09:00] its own way. And so I've kind of taken up this mantra to myself of, be the river, not the rock.

[00:09:05] Radim Malinic: Yeah, I love that. 

[00:09:06] Oliver Jeffers: it's like, Jackie Chance said something about be like water. But this more specifically to the artistic, practice, I think is. Find another way. And in the process of trying to find another way, one of two things will happen. One, you will find another way or two, you'll become so much more interested and in fact with another project that the trickle will die and, fail somewhere and you won't even remember it.

[00:09:31] Oliver Jeffers: You'll just move on to something else. So it's not rejection, it's 

[00:09:35] Radim Malinic: evolution. Oh, absolutely. I think,

[00:09:37] Radim Malinic: we live in this sort of mirage of opportunities that know what you see online sometimes can seem like an opportunity was very easy to sort of join the dose from the start to finish. 

[00:09:46] Oliver Jeffers: I. Yeah. No, and when you say, when you're looking online as well, it's all you see is what other people have accomplished.

[00:09:51] Oliver Jeffers: People don't traditionally post all of their failures or all of their bad days or all other things that didn't work out. And so, it is this [00:10:00] unrealistic view of their lives that's been completely edited with the 

[00:10:04] Radim Malinic: idea of stroking their ego. But when you think about it, like we don't, even in personal lives, we don't always share the failures or the things that didn't go well with a broad range of people.

[00:10:14] Radim Malinic: Like we've got our partners, sometimes we got closest friends, and usually those are the ones who hear about the things that didn't go well. But 

[00:10:23] Oliver Jeffers: I think that there's something sort of societal in, that way that. it takes a courage, it takes gut and takes almost sort of self-acceptance to say, you know what?

[00:10:32] Radim Malinic: Things are not going well and why would anyone want to look at it? Because after all, I think people show up online because they want to be accepted by the broader public and broader people as society. Go in. Am I doing something amazing? please tell me. Please tell me. Because part of the concept of daring creativity is that sort of dare to self accept of who we are and what we stand for, and not necessarily look for that sort of extreme validation from people who had nothing to do with our work.

[00:10:57] Radim Malinic: you call it like the ver and the stone, and I think I always see [00:11:00] it as creators, like having really strong roots, that if a really strong way blows past you, that you still stand still and go, you know what? I'm here.

[00:11:07] Radim Malinic: I'm fine. I'm actually deeply rooted in my own grass, in my own soil doing my thing rather than going. which sort of, which wind, which know which river, which stream of water will take me somewhere. Right. 

[00:11:18] Oliver Jeffers: Yeah. 

[00:11:19] Radim Malinic: I 

[00:11:19] Oliver Jeffers: suppose my analogy works if you know what it is that you want to do, whereas your analogy works for, just being a person.

[00:11:27] Radim Malinic: Yeah. Because I think we once said that it took you a long time to self accept yourself or what you were doing, because I'm trying to work out, well, I think we're trying to work out where did the first Children's book actually come from, because fine art painting and trying to catch a star are not always the closest to topics to one another.

[00:11:45] Oliver Jeffers: No, they're not. But the type of fine art painting that I was making at that time, And I can't remember really how this came about, but I was interested in doing these paintings with a very realistic understanding of light and shadow [00:12:00] and, but on very simple objects. So almost like toys.

[00:12:03] Oliver Jeffers: So I remember painting fish, but the fish looked like a three-year-old drawn it. But then the light and shadow was, very realistic, and playing about with that. And so these very simple shapes, but d dealt in a way that had great roots in the understanding of, how art functions. and I think that's where some of the paintings were taking me.

[00:12:22] Oliver Jeffers: So I was painting things like lighthouses or fish or these things with stripes and the curvature of objects. starfish and tricking myself into thinking it was a reflection. I was like, oh, that would make a great painting that fits into this visual language that I was creating for myself, which is sort of bold colors, simple shapes, but realistic light and shadow. And the first painting was that. And then I thought, there's more potential here.

[00:12:45] Oliver Jeffers: You know, throw in another thing that's got stripes, like a life ring. Maybe that's another way that he's trying to catch the star. And really at that point I was like, oh wait, there's more to this here. And so that's how that jumped made like from this thinking. And actually my fine art painting changed massively after [00:13:00] that.

[00:13:00] Oliver Jeffers: 'cause I suppose that urge of painting realistically in a kind of accessible and naive way, totally shifted into what became my style for children's books. And then the fine art painting went a lot more, realistic for a while. and partly that was again, sort of trying to prove to people whose opinion I.

[00:13:18] Oliver Jeffers: When under scrutiny would have to admit, I didn't really care about, try and prove to people that, no, I can't actually paint realistically, I'm a good painter. and even though I would start off with, for, gosh, for even as far as a decade, like trying to paint something, I was like, I'm gonna be super loose with this.

[00:13:33] Oliver Jeffers: I would end up just getting tighter and more realistic. And more realistic. Still trying to prove to myself and, the stranger on pedestal that I can do this. Look, I need your validation to say, I can paint, 

[00:13:45] Radim Malinic: you said the word prove, I think at least three times I can prove to them, I can paint, I can prove to myself, I can do it as I can prove.

[00:13:50] Radim Malinic: Because that's,that young turmoil, isn't it? is the like. We need to almost work it out of ourselves for all the brush strokes and all the, paint, splats, whatever the production, bit by bit because [00:14:00] then mostly once you you don't need to prove to anything, to anyone.

[00:14:02] Radim Malinic: Like it's just, it just comes out. then it 

[00:14:05] Oliver Jeffers: becomes, not by proof, but yeah, that's it. It becomes about communication or it becomes about sort of just yeah. Discovery. but yes, it is that, that I, you know, when you're younger and people ask like, how do you find your style? And it's just that everybody's gotta go through that process.

[00:14:18] Oliver Jeffers: There is no quick solution to any of this. And ironically, that became, and while I was working through this, that became a theme of the, my third book, the Incredible Book in Boy, there is No Easy Shortcut to Success, which was sort of wrapped up in that story in a great way. 'cause it was something that I was starting to subconsciously, I.

[00:14:38] Oliver Jeffers: Wrestle with internally and,that's one way in which it manifested out but no piece of art that I've ever made. To go back to an earlier question you were saying about, has actually ever turned out the way that I thought it would in my head before I put pen to paper or brush to canvas.

[00:14:54]  

[00:14:54] Oliver Jeffers: not a single thing. There's, you always have to react to what you say and some people can very [00:15:00] frustrated with that.

[00:15:05] Oliver Jeffers:  Use that as a conversation, which is that's not what I thought was gonna happen, but that is interesting. What happens if I do that some more? And then the work starts to take you in places that you're not in control completely. And I think there's something really fascinating that happens when you get into that conversation with the thing you're making, I 

[00:15:22] Radim Malinic: think it must be very comforting for some people who are listening to this would be like, oh, wait a minute.

[00:15:26] Radim Malinic: So you set out to do something, you have a vision, but then it turned out to be something different that you've actually planned. Because that obsession with perfectionism,I've been debating this topic for the last 30 odd episodes, maybe even more. It's again, comes from self-acceptance, comes from feelings of shame, vulnerability.

[00:15:42] Radim Malinic: Like,am I putting something out there that would I be judged by, you know, in your case, chin strokers, would I be judged by public at large? would I be judged? Whereas when you go on the journey with your work, it doesn't matter what thing,what the outcome is in the end.

[00:15:55] Radim Malinic: Well, 

[00:15:56] Oliver Jeffers: no. It doesn't because, and also not a single other human being, [00:16:00] even those you love and, respect the most can see inside your head. Nobody has any idea of what you had envisaged. So it's that disappointment's on you. But, you know, I was saying that not a single piece of work has ever turned out exactly the way that I thought.

[00:16:13] Oliver Jeffers: What apart from one, and the only reason that turned out exactly the way that I thought it would is because it involved a bunch of architectural engineers and it was a large scale public art sculpture project. And so I did some sketches and then they made those sketches, like without any deviation into reality as a series.

[00:16:33] Oliver Jeffers: And it was the, the project, our place space. And so. Two scale model of Earth Place and the solar system as a way to look at ourselves from afar. But because of, you know, the wind load and all of these engineering requirements, the weight bearing, everything else, they had to calculate everything.

[00:16:51] Oliver Jeffers: And the easiest way to do it without it changing massively was to just stick absolutely religiously to the sketches that were made in the first place. So it's the only time that's ever happened. [00:17:00] And it felt weird to be honest, because like it almost felt a little disappointing. It was like, oh, it didn't evolve along the way.

[00:17:06] Radim Malinic: There was no compromising involved at all. Oh, I like that. So I'm trying sort of zoom in a little bit more on, on the nexus of your sort of book work and know sort of working on those stories because. I always think when I think about people's stars and careers, it always takes me back to quote by Alan De Baton who says, we always create things in life that we are longing for.

[00:17:28] Radim Malinic: So if our life is very peaceful, we create chaos and sort of work that's very messy. Whereas if our life is messy, we create things that are very peaceful. And in your case I mean you've already been describing like the stars, the rudimentary drawings with lifelike sort of shadows and rendering.

[00:17:44] Radim Malinic: But was there something as a response to your environment on growing up? Or was there something that you decided to sort of, not decided is the wrong thing to say, but like, how did it come about? Is there any dots we can join? 

[00:17:56] Oliver Jeffers: Yeah. You know, it's funny that you've mentioned the messy and the kind of the [00:18:00] piece.

[00:18:00] Oliver Jeffers: I just went with my kids and some. a family of friends of ours from the us We were in Paris together, and we went to the Pompidou before closed. And I was walking around with two seven year olds, my daughter and her friend IU and,  and IU's mother. And we're sort of, I was asking, them was like, what do you guys prefer?

[00:18:15] Oliver Jeffers: do you like messy art or do you like neat art?  And, they, you know, we were having this conversation and Esther and I both realized you know, I used to really like neat art, but now I like messy art. And why is that? And is it because  in my youth, sort of coming up through the twenties, I was craving, control and craving, the predictability.

[00:18:36] Oliver Jeffers: whereas now I have control and predictability to some degrees.  I am  missing chaos.  and so that's why I'm resonating to that. But in, my work itself, you do kind of become.  not a slave, but you enter into a contract with your own ability.  And so there's, I'm not interested too much in completely reinventing my style  for the sake of it.

[00:18:58] Oliver Jeffers: so there, there tends [00:19:00] to be a range of neatness and messiness within a skill, and it doesn't really deviate too much. And it's so, and especially as a, an artist who's a communicator, I'm aware of what resonates more with people in terms of not saying people I like it, but that it works.

[00:19:13] Oliver Jeffers: And when I say it works, that it does its job. It's set out to try and convey what I'm feeling to other people. And with a, the bottoms one. You know, I suppose you'd have to examine why he was making the work in the first place for that. But to answer your question that you originally posed, a lot of people, 'cause of my books are all about loneliness and friendship and sparse soap and landscapes.

[00:19:34] Oliver Jeffers: Assume I was an only child. It was like, no, I grew up in a small working class house with three brothers and a dog, and it never occurred to me until 10 years, into making books. I was like, maybe that was my craving for peace, for cam, for openness, for a space to be alone.

[00:19:52] Radim Malinic: And I never noticed it. Yeah, it's interesting how we got there. 'cause yeah, I mean there's something that comes out of us whether we like it or not, because you get [00:20:00] artists or designers or creatives who produce the most stunning multi layered, intricate pieces of work.

[00:20:06] Radim Malinic: But the inspirations are just like black and white, one dot on a piece of paper. Like, you know, the inspiration sometimes and the output is totally vastly different. And I can speak from a personal sort of experience when I was an illustrator, because of looking for self-acceptance, I just added every single layer because I could, even though I like things that were more very minimal but very geometrical.

[00:20:26] Radim Malinic: And I think that's just a way like, was there a level of, expression that I was longing for? Even though, the stimulus is totally more digestible, 

[00:20:34] Oliver Jeffers: but that, you know, knowing when to stop is half the battle, whenever you add lots and lots and lots of things in, it's like Marvel.

[00:20:40] Oliver Jeffers: superhero movies tend to do that. It's just everything is just big and brash and it to the point where you just can't see anything anymore. And,and I remember in design in the late nineties when flash websites came out and Photoshop was sort of in, its, the big, that first splurge of,accessibility.

[00:20:56] 

[00:20:56] Oliver Jeffers: I remember hearing a phrase called the Mariah Carey Syndrome in design. [00:21:00] And it was, Mariah Carey has a 12 octave range and will not sing a single song without using all 12 octaves. And the moral being that just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. 

[00:21:11] Radim Malinic: I, I, I like that phrase. I mean, I've heard it first used with even just for things like web design, just because you can use all the features on the website doesn't mean you should.

[00:21:19] Radim Malinic: So on the record, I went to see you a couple of weeks ago, I think it was maybe two, three weeks ago. I saw you doing your conversation for your latest book, celebrating the work that you've done so far.

[00:21:29] Radim Malinic: And you were given quite in depth answers about your processes, about how you think, how you work, and one of the answers involved. The fact that you said, I don't always paint very often, I just use the painting and illustrations just to communicate my points. For some people you have mostly seen as a, as an illustrator, as a creative, as a visual communicator.

[00:21:50] 

[00:21:50] Radim Malinic: it might be to some people surprised that you are not a daily maker. You're not a daily illustrator anymore. Like you, you spend more time thinking about your work than you [00:22:00] creating it. and actually to some might be even surprised that. Illustration is almost just a means to an end what you do these days.

[00:22:06] Radim Malinic: It's 

[00:22:06] Oliver Jeffers: yeah, I wouldn't call myself an illustrator. and I never was a daily maker. the names, to describe what I do. It's always something I've sort of struggled with. 'cause nothing really neatly fits the box of it. So, yes, I'm a painter. Yes, I'm an artist. Yes, I'm a, an advocate.

[00:22:21] Oliver Jeffers: yes, I make books, but, there's a talk that I give and I kind of try to come up with. Hilariously show the difference between illustration and art. and so I wouldn't really be a gun for hire for other people. although in saying that, I've done more projects like that recently, than ever before.

[00:22:37] Oliver Jeffers: But mostly just it's because it's things that I believe in and that I wanna be involved with,the Brooklyn Museum or, Greenpeace or, the New York Philharmonic. So that, but these aren't like jobs that I would've an agent who's out going looking for work for me. I would, almost always say no to client work.

[00:22:54] Oliver Jeffers: and, 99% of what I do is self-generated. but the difference between [00:23:00] publishing and the experience that I have with, commercial illustration, whether that's advertising or in, editorial. these are some of the differences that I see between art and illustration andYou're solving somebody else's problems, whereas with art, you're creating your own problems to solve with illustration. You agree a fee before you start the work. And with art, you make something and then you try to figure out how to make a fee from it. And with illustration, somebody is going to, give you the thumbs up and, okay, the job.

[00:23:32] 

[00:23:32] Oliver Jeffers: whereas within art, you will forever marinate an existential self doubt. 

[00:23:36] 

[00:23:37] Radim Malinic: I actually have that quote here in arguing, marinate in your existential self-doubt, which I loved it so much when you said it the other day. 'cause it's like existential self-doubt and marinating in it is pretty much what 99.9 people do generally in, in everyday life.

[00:23:53] Radim Malinic: It's just some of us just decide to actually put in a visual form for others to see. 

[00:23:58] Oliver Jeffers: Yeah. And you know, from what, from [00:24:00] the outside looking in, I guess people see me as a success, but there's still days where there's still weeks sometimes where it's I'm not, I don't know. What am I, who am I kidding?

[00:24:09] Oliver Jeffers: Am I, you know, can I really keep going? Is this, am I washed up? Is this over? am I good enough? Completely. Yeah. and then there's sometimes where things, something, a few things click into place and it's Oh yeah, this is good. I enjoy this. This is why I do this. 

[00:24:23] Radim Malinic: Can we zoom in on those three words you just said?

[00:24:27] Radim Malinic: Sometimes I don't feel I'm good enough. Sometimes I feel washed out. I mean, again, from the outside in, people looking at your world and going,does it even need to work?

[00:24:36] Radim Malinic:  And it might be, you know, it's 

[00:24:37] Oliver Jeffers: the good enough thing is, and it's I suppose there's a few other layers of things thrown in on top of that, which,our life was sort of turned upside down about four years ago, whenever we went traveling with our two kids.

[00:24:50] Oliver Jeffers: they were both born in Brooklyn. Well, one was born in Brooklyn. They were both born in New York. One was born in Manhattan, one was born in Brooklyn. My studio was there, three full-time [00:25:00] employees, my wife and I, 'cause the, they're operating on gallery shows, operating on, ' large installations, operating on children's books, public speaking, all these things.

[00:25:10] Oliver Jeffers: Then, we thought, right, let's travel the world before our kids start school. So we're gonna take a year off and we're gonna travel. And we rented out our apartment for two years to, to someone. And we got on a boat and we went across the Atlantic and we got about four or five months into this year off, and COVID hit and our apartment had been rented out and we had nowhere to go.

[00:25:32] Oliver Jeffers: And so we ended up back in Northern Ireland. and that's where I'm speaking to you from today. And there was a lot of, turmoil and,unsettledness to that, which is figuring out what are we doing? Are we living here, are we living there? My main studio is in Brooklyn. All of the people who buy my work collectors, all of the connections and the kind of the, my network is there.

[00:25:53] 

[00:25:53] Oliver Jeffers: and so trying to find a balance between deciding ultimately that it was better to raise the kids in Northern [00:26:00] Ireland around family, and in a place where the politics, believe it or not, I never thought I'd be saying that anywhere Northern Ireland was safer and better for kids than anywhere. USA, but it just became clear that this was going to be a better place for them.

[00:26:13] Oliver Jeffers: And so trying to juggle that, being apparent in a place, where I then leave every couple of weeks to go and just try and buying out a whole bunch of work. And so the, you know, the, this notion of. Being super productive for two weeks and then sort of being a, like a parent for the rest of the time and having to,used to working whenever.

[00:26:34] 

[00:26:35] Oliver Jeffers: momentum was striking and just following something through an open road. So then suddenly, actually my work hours are only really from 9:00 AM until 3:00 PM when the kids come home from school. and then, looking at my to-do list on Wednesday and realizing I still haven't got through half of what I was hoping to get through on Monday and it's Wednesday.

[00:26:53] Oliver Jeffers: And so all of those frustrations and sort of trying to stay on top of those and then in the middle of that, trying to find a place to [00:27:00] work where it felt like I was making for joy rather than this pressure just to get things crossed off the list so I can get onto the next thing. 

[00:27:06] Radim Malinic: So did I get it right?

[00:27:08] Radim Malinic: Do you still sort of, do you commute to New York to do some work? 

[00:27:11] Oliver Jeffers: that I have two studios now, so there's this in Northern Ireland, this one, and I would tend to do a lot more of the sort of long term planning and the,large scale work and the operations and any of the merchandise that we would do and make books here.

[00:27:25] Oliver Jeffers: And then the Brooklyn Studio, I would use, I would hold court a little more there, so I would hold dinner parties with politicians and activists and scientists and other artists. but that's also where I would do the experimentation work. And, just like talk into the night over a bottle of wine with other artists about the state of the world, about art, and then just get lose myself in a canvas for 10 hours in a row.

[00:27:45] Oliver Jeffers: So that's where all,the melding of ideas comes into play, the experimentation, the play. the curiosity of it all comes in and then it's just a lot more easier to almost think of admin and production from this other studio. 

[00:27:59] Radim Malinic: it [00:28:00] sounds wonderful and it also sounds, well some people would be, it's tiring.

[00:28:04] Oliver Jeffers: It is. It's, the balance of 

[00:28:05] Radim Malinic: it is lovely, but it does become exhausting. See, that's what this is what just happened. I thought this sounds lovely, and you say it's tiring because we like the idea of okay, well, as a fellow, parent, if you get three or four hours of work a day, you are winning.

[00:28:20] Radim Malinic: You know, because you want to be in your kids' life. I mean, it was unimaginable some even 10 years ago. For me it was like, you know, 16 hours a day, that was not enough. And now you're like, I've got four good hours. That's, that, that's enough. 

[00:28:32] Oliver Jeffers: and I've been having this conversation, it was like, you know, this is really difficult.

[00:28:36] Oliver Jeffers: But then. Being aware that this is only a very short window of time, because then my brother's kids are, 15 and 17, about to be 18, and like they're already gone in some ways. And so, he's got all this time back. So it's this little window that you get with these growing human beings that, you know, to really, the foundations of your relationship are being established.

[00:28:58] Oliver Jeffers: And so I've learned to [00:29:00] not take that for granted. 

[00:29:01] Radim Malinic: Yeah. I think that realization is, I think, one of the biggest gifts of our lives because as you said, I mean, somebody once said, in fact, there was a question that asked, my wife asked her business partner and she said, you've got older kids. Does it ever get easier?

[00:29:16] Radim Malinic: She said, it doesn't get easier, but it gets different, you know, then it doesn't get easy, it gets different, and it's amazing So I was like, I was like, it 

[00:29:24] Oliver Jeffers: doesn't get easier. It just gets less hard. Which it somehow made sense to me whenever they said this. 

[00:29:31] Radim Malinic: Yeah. yeah.

[00:29:31] Radim Malinic: 'cause when you think about it's pretty much also a good metaphor for creative life. You know, it doesn't get easy, it just gets different. Like I think we are, we live on that pre pretends we want to get to the point where everything's working. You spend, let's say 10 years, 15 years working on your little sort of creative empire.

[00:29:48] Radim Malinic: Now we're gonna take a deep breath and enjoy the ride for rest of the time until we go into the sunset. Whereas there's no such thing as end of problems. I think there's always an obstacle. There's always something because we live in this dissonance thinking, oh, I [00:30:00] wish it was easy.

[00:30:00] Radim Malinic: I'm when I enjoy this. But when it gets really easy, we go. This is too easy. Like where is the challenge? Where is something that actually grinds at us, right?

[00:30:08] Oliver Jeffers: Yeah. That balance between challenge and joy is that's the sweet spot, isn't it? and I think it's important to, when you're in the moment with a piece of work, it was like, yes, I, this is working and I'm enjoying it. Is that allow yourself that pleasure just to, to relish in the joy of making rather than then think of, okay, what's the next problem?

[00:30:29] Radim Malinic: Yeah. In my, in one of my workshops, I'm trying at the moment for the content of the book, there's this exercises about being in a present moment and doing life oed. And I said in one of the parts, observe the number of positive and negative thoughts because we think when we got negative thoughts, that's the end of us.

[00:30:44] Radim Malinic: But no one's ever said, I'm having way too many positive thoughts. I need to stop this. You know, because like it's, there's that balance between the two, So I have to say that I have discovered your work, through fate of fto. I was working on a, on my [00:31:00] third book of branding, and I was, as I always do, doing the research or like just, you know, the top line research where would my book slot in?

[00:31:06] Radim Malinic: And I saw your book. I'd never heard of your work before. And the cover and the book itself totally stopped me in my tracks. I was like, what's going on? What is this? You know, it was beautiful color. Everything was great. It, no, I'm sorry, it was a beautiful color. The c it was just, it spoke to me, there's one of the things that just sort of stopped you in your tracks.

[00:31:24] Radim Malinic: I bought the book,on understanding it would be a book for my children. So I was like, Hey, look, I've got this book. I'm really excited about it. And you can tell I was a lot more excited about the book myself than it was for them. My daughter was back then, maybe four, and I mean, she's nine. I think if I got it right.

[00:31:40] Radim Malinic: I opened a book and I was totally taken aback because I had that experience of reading the book for the first time with a little human and going, going, going, going. And then spoiler alert, you know, the main character drowns. And she just looks at me like, what was that about? It was like, what, is it really for me?

[00:31:59] Radim Malinic: Are we gonna [00:32:00] read it again? And what's really been beautiful, like the relationship with the book that they've, especially my daughter, my, she's now nine, my son is five. She really has a different relationship with the book and kind of gets more of the life aspect of what you wrote a book about and what you did with it.

[00:32:16] Radim Malinic: And yeah. When I've sort of been talking to you and I honestly listened to some of your other interviews, you very much say you make books for yourself. There is no such thing. You are a picture bookmaker rather than children's bookmaker. You know, I think you've kind of created your own sort of path and you created that sort of amazing.

[00:32:33] Radim Malinic: How to say it, it's not juxtaposition, but like this amazing sort of amalgamation of various elements. It's like watching Simpsons, which is meant to be cartoon for kids, but it's actually for grownups. You know, you've got all of these things, but it's a cross boundary storytelling that, was absolutely fascinating.

[00:32:49] Radim Malinic: I've been found ever since. 

[00:32:51] Oliver Jeffers: Oh, well thank you. Yeah, it's, you know, I think that, I always say that the bookshelf from for zero to 99, and it's if, [00:33:00] I've always thought that if you can explain a concept to a kid in a way. Also to your grandmother, then you're really at the sweet spot of,communication.

[00:33:12] Oliver Jeffers: cause I don't think the world needs to be overly complicated. There are complicated things that are happening, but if you keep stripping back to get to the core of the spokes of the whale, so it were,I think you can do a lot more shifting of thought at that deep level than you can if you stay on the surface.

[00:33:31] Oliver Jeffers: And voice, though, is one of those. and I suppose to, to, clarify for your listeners that it's not a book about death, it's not a book about drowning. I mean, it was inevitable that he had to drown in this, but it's,a book about, our relationship with greed and our relationship with our environment.

[00:33:45] 

[00:33:46] Oliver Jeffers: and, it's only happened two other times where a story has just sort of presented itself to me all in one go. and it felt like an old story. It felt like a story that could have been told. A hundred years ago, 200 years [00:34:00] ago, about 300 years ago. and so the process of making the book, I wanted to do it in such a way as that it felt like an honored traditional bookmaking techniques.

[00:34:08] Oliver Jeffers: 'cause this is also the time when everything is going digital. And, not quite the same panic that publishing went through with the Amazon Kindle. And, you know, like the, book sales would go the way of, CD sales because the middleman was being cut out. But even so, I wanted to honor the tradition of bookmaking.

[00:34:25] Oliver Jeffers: and so I made the book on a 200 year old lithography machine in Paris, where mixed to colors, and it took Approximately five times longer than we anticipated. which was both, well, let's just say it was interesting. It involved me being in Paris a lot more than I'd thought. and so my family would come over and stay periodically, and they happened to be there waiting for me down the road, at the Notre Dam the day that it went on fire.

[00:34:51] Oliver Jeffers: but they, so the whole book was made there, and the end paper was marbled the way they used to for old books. We had,David Pearson, the famous [00:35:00] type designer, designed the type based on an old, letter press one that had never really made it. That was sort of from the, the 19 and the whole thing.

[00:35:10] Oliver Jeffers: These systems that have been around for a long time and this to sort of convey the story, the ancientness of this fable that we never seem to learn from. 

[00:35:19] Radim Malinic: I like that you said it's a story. It could have been, you know, written 300 years ago because now when you've said it, you can see some of the characters, especially Fausto looks like a man from.

[00:35:29] Radim Malinic: Not particularly. Now he looks like from someone with this sort of, this bushy mustache and do what he dresses. 

[00:35:36] Oliver Jeffers: Yeah. 'cause it, because of the year it came out, everybody thought I was making the book about, Trump, which I was not at all, not even slightly. actually the book was written before, Trump decided that he would run for office in 2015.

[00:35:47] 

[00:35:48] Oliver Jeffers: and I had written that book and then my son was born in 2015 and Trump decided to run for office and the world was all suddenly getting angrier and scarier. And I thought at that point, this book, [00:36:00] there's a negativity to this book that is not normally, or an aggression even that's not normally my style.

[00:36:05] Oliver Jeffers: And I thought the world doesn't need this right now because I had come up with another concept for a book called Here We Are, which was a guidebook for arriving on Planet Earth and just about the simple of what it is to be alive on the 21st century. And so I basically parked for. Two years while I made, here we are.

[00:36:23] Oliver Jeffers: and then the reality was that like, actually, you know, the themes and the issues that come up in, are even more relevant now than they were two years ago. So it felt like this is now the time and because of the timing of it, every, we thought it was Trump based, but it was not.

[00:36:37] Oliver Jeffers: It was just this sense of we are out of balance. With the only place that we can live. And this idea of ownership in capitalism is, you know, like when somebody's a billionaire, why do they need more? And what is this idea of every global economy being based on growth? Every business's goal is growth, but if you look [00:37:00] at growth in terms of biology, uncharted growth is called cancer.

[00:37:03] Oliver Jeffers: And so just this reevaluating the system that we have for ourselves of what it is that we want. I. 

[00:37:08] Radim Malinic: Yes, you've nailed it Then. what I wanted to say, actually, you and Brian Collins are partially responsible for the styles of my latest two books that I've published. Creativity For Sale and Mindful Creative because you know, your little neon detailing, I'm showing just people who can't see, you know, you, so you that inspired me using neon color in my books.

[00:37:29] Radim Malinic: this is very much a punter. That's that. And the style of illustration was actually inspired by the Collins's work for MailChimp. Some around sort of same time around 2018 when they re rebranded MailChimp with very messy hand drawn illustrations. And I was like. At that. Until that point, my studio was very much working in 3D and digital illustration.

[00:37:47] Radim Malinic: I was like, how do I do something different? So that's how things are. Now I have the little things that you spend time, you know, but your family was waiting in Notre Dame obviously, like waiting for you to get your craft done. these [00:38:00] little details make another spark of inspiration and actually inspired me to do that because I was like, that's genius, and I wanted do something different, 

[00:38:08] Oliver Jeffers: Yeah. You just never know where the work will kind of, permeate and show up somewhere else and who it'll affect. And you've never have any idea and you never will. 

[00:38:16] Radim Malinic: it takes me to a quote by Johnny Ive, who said, you know, obsessing about little details will make people feel that you actually gave a shit about your work.

[00:38:23] Radim Malinic: And like,when you do those little things, they will manifest themselves in,in, in some way or another. I wanna, I've got one more question about Fausto before we move on the next thing. the pacing of the book. Simply genius. you say a lot by saying very little with just a few words on the page.

[00:38:39] 

[00:38:40] Radim Malinic: do you ever. Ever worked with sort of preset pagination? how does your planning work? Because that particular book in itself, like it's got these pockets of excitement. As you can tell, I'm a fucking massive fan of this book.

[00:38:51] Radim Malinic: and I'm fascinated like, how to write as little as possible that you don't feel like you have to add extra words or make the illustration bolder or [00:39:00] wider. 

[00:39:00] Oliver Jeffers: Well, you know, the daring is the theme of this, and it is, daring to be quiet.

[00:39:05] Oliver Jeffers: It's daring to Understand that you've grabbed the audience's attention and you're gonna hold it and you're gonna make them look at something. But the, question of pagination is yes, when you get into larger books, it's, less of a structural concern. But with most picture books, they're, you know, they're all multiples of it.

[00:39:19] Oliver Jeffers: So they're either 32 pages or they're 40 pages, or then you have to jump right up to 56 pages and if you go beyond 32, then suddenly you're at 40 and you've got these extra pages that you need to fill. but with I, with Feto, I can't remember what it is i, is it 112 pages, that might be right, but I knew that I wanted there to be a lot of space.

[00:39:37] Oliver Jeffers: I felt that it was more like the sort of the spacing of contemporary poetry than of a novel or of a film, which, you know, the strange line breaks and giving a word, an extra effect. I think there's one spread where the only thing. On the entire spread is the word eventually. 

[00:39:53] Radim Malinic: unfortunately you didn't put any page numbers on this.

[00:39:56] Oliver Jeffers: No, I did not. It's, I'm pretty sure it's 112. 

[00:39:58] Radim Malinic: Yeah, it feels like [00:40:00] 112. Yeah. I mean, I think it's a masterclass in, in saying a lot by saying so little and so strongly. 

[00:40:07] Oliver Jeffers: I think you can say more with you know, more, more is less, or sorry, less is more or less, cause if you can lay out the crumbs so that whoever's reading the book can put it together in their own minds, the impact of that is gonna be much more potent.

[00:40:23] Oliver Jeffers: 'cause they'll add their own personal experience to it then if you spell out every single word. So, you know, it's I think the opposite end of that extreme is Steinbeck who used language is, it's so precise and so extravagant and so flurry that you've no choice but to be inside his head. But with something like f whether there's so few words, it's you're kind of inside your own head at that point.

[00:40:42] Oliver Jeffers: Do you reckon. 

[00:40:43] Radim Malinic: Does your work link up to the quote that you used? which says, building strong children is easier than men and broken men. 

[00:40:51] Oliver Jeffers: Oh, the Frederick Douglas quote. Yeah. I think there's something to that. Yes. And it's so, like a lot of the books, especially since my kids were born, [00:41:00] especially since my kids were born, there was this notion of I want to play my part in trying to make the world the sort of place that they will.

[00:41:08] Oliver Jeffers: Be proud to be a contributing member of that society. and so yes, there was a matter of like, how do I deal with things like climate or like greed or like conflict in a way that will help them become better future adults. and as I, so I think there is something to that, get with picture books in particular and with, being able to speak in terms that are simple enough, you can possibly get to new arrivals on earth before the evils and cruelties of the world.

[00:41:37] Radim Malinic: with your books, when did you stop reading it? Reviews. Have you ever stopped reading reviews? 

[00:41:42] Oliver Jeffers: Yeah, no, don't really give too much credence to reviews. 'cause that's one person's opinion on one day. and you know, you can get, I think reviews and awards.

[00:41:52] Oliver Jeffers: You get two, I think set on, external validations. But I also realized that a lot of the reviews were just sort of lazily [00:42:00] written, copy and paste of the press release. And I was like, why would you even pay too much attention of just,somebody who's clearly not paying attention to the details of their own job?

[00:42:10] 

[00:42:11] Oliver Jeffers: and a lot of times whenever somebody's reviewing something and they feel that they have to be critical, they might just land on something that is random rather than something that they truly, deeply felt, no, I don't pay too much heat to, to 

[00:42:24] Radim Malinic: reduce. But did you ever have, did you ever have that very first negative review and you were like, you didn't know how to deal with it because I'm speaking from a personal experience.

[00:42:32] Radim Malinic: I, I had, my very first bad negative review was like. I think I need to go for a walk because it was such a new experience because you put your work out there hoping for the best and you're never prepared for the worst. it's usually the people with such a strong opinion that they actually, they paragraph there stuff, you know, you paragraph and you're like, you really, I know there's something about you that's not quite right.

[00:42:52] Radim Malinic: And my book is just the enabler of the trigger, but I'm on the under receiving end. 

[00:42:58] Oliver Jeffers: Yeah, I mean, I [00:43:00] remember the, I can't even remember what book it was for, but the review was like, it was such that I was able to say to 'em, I was like, wow, they really didn't, they didn't get what I was trying to do there.

[00:43:08] Oliver Jeffers: there's a disconnect here 'cause that almost feels like a different book that's being reviewed. And then I did, it was like the, and maybe this is the point of some reviews, like that was like, okay, what could I have done that would've got what I was trying to say across more clearly? and you know, that comes back to that, the communicator artist type mentality.

[00:43:27] Oliver Jeffers: But it's, I didn't take it that personally because it was so obvious that they misunderstood the point. 

[00:43:34] Radim Malinic: can tell you that some of the faster reviews are from people who are. Just looking for a straightforward book for their children. They're like, what just happened? You know what I mean? Unfortunately, you don't get reviews like, oh, the Postman dropped the book One Star.

[00:43:48] Radim Malinic: You know, oh, the book smells a bit funny. Two stars. they're like, just don't buy this for your kids, would you? 

[00:43:52] Oliver Jeffers: yeah. You'll never make anything. It's gonna please all the people, but it's the, you know, the people who do like it will say to, to their friends and it [00:44:00] works like that. But I do remember getting an email, or a direct message on, social media from somebody, I think they were in Germany and they were like what am I supposed to tell my children happened to FTO at the end of this book, and I've almost never reply to, dms like that.

[00:44:15] Oliver Jeffers: But this time I did. It was like, you tell him. He died. I was like, it's a conversation that I don't think, you can really kind of pretend doesn't exist. Like death is a very realistic part of life and to pretend otherwise is to maybe set children up unprepared for,the future. So I was just like, you tell him that he died.

[00:44:32] Oliver Jeffers: I think 

[00:44:33] Radim Malinic: it's never the nicest thing for children to realize that there's such thing that's a weight in all of us, but unfortunately as the part of life. 

[00:44:41] Oliver Jeffers: Well, but you know, there's another book that, there's another book that I made called The Heart in the Bottle, and adults get very emotional about that 'cause it's about, a little girl who loses, a father figure in her life.

[00:44:51] Oliver Jeffers: And, I never specified whether it was a father or grandfather. 'cause I think people take their own, you know, if you don't,if you're not completely, specific on the details, but [00:45:00] it allows people room to, project their own personal circumstance anyway. adults get very emotional about that book.

[00:45:05] Oliver Jeffers: I'm very sad about that book. Children don't, even though they get it. because there's, I don't know, there's this still this sort of sense of balance and curiosity in a way that, that adults have lost. and it's, there, there's a, there's an innate sense of understanding in kids about books like that.

[00:45:23] Oliver Jeffers: So that we're, it's, it just affects the differently I've tried to never underestimate the intelligence of kids when I'm making any of these books. 

[00:45:30] Radim Malinic: you allow yourself to be quite vulnerable earlier saying oh, I'm, sometimes I'm not sure where I'm going, if this is the right place, you know, am I enough? Am I doing it right? How do you take your life creatively right now? do you keep making constant notes about what you want to do or do you have things that come to you in Wakes?

[00:45:47] Radim Malinic: Or how, if somebody wanted to think, ah, you showed me your sketchbook. 

[00:45:52] Oliver Jeffers: Yeah, well, you know, so right now,the work seems to be more project based and it does feel like there's spinning [00:46:00] plates and so it's a lot of just making sure this plate is spinning and then going back and spinning in the first plate.

[00:46:06] Oliver Jeffers: and, so some of them are book projects, some of them are gallery shows. some of them are, events and it's just a matter of working backwards from what needs to happen. So the, you know, the one thing that I have to be strict about in there is, protecting the time to make. And so it's like there's a gallery show that's coming up, and I wanna enjoy the making of, of those pieces.

[00:46:25] Oliver Jeffers: So it, I've learned that I can't do that on days where I'm also. Doing admin or other sketches for other things. It's just gonna be okay, I'm only doing this, I'm clearing the space and protecting the space just to allow this to happen. And even if nothing happens, as long as I don't then get on my phone or start emailing, or start watching a TV show or something, even if I just sort of sit and stare and think and nothing actually is made, that's okay.

[00:46:51] Oliver Jeffers: 'cause it's, that's part of the process of sometimes you think about something for a long time and then it explodes into life. but, it's, right now there's a lot of project based stuff [00:47:00] while also trying to take a little time off during the summer. So it's really quite calendar driven.

[00:47:04] 

[00:47:05] Radim Malinic: I think you said, how do you take time off thinking? Because I believe as creative person, I. There's nothing more satisfying and more liberating than just have this, the head space and the space in your mind to actually be thinking about these ideas and validating even before you touched, you know, any of your sort of art tools, because you and I met Ed Paradiso and I was, thanks.

[00:47:26] Radim Malinic: So Hector, who put on this amazing event, and I very much enjoy the fact that you can speak to anyone about anything and validate the fact, in my opinion, that creativity is first and foremost verbal. Like we used to say that, oh, this image tells, you know, thousand stories or you know, image can.

[00:47:41] Radim Malinic: Something like that. Right. and I obviously now believe in a time when you've got a thousand words can create a prompt to create an image, however, is the way of how we can eloquently dance with our words and actually en engage someone in their interest and ex excitement by actually explaining something, which almost feels like a movement.

[00:47:59] Radim Malinic: Like something, because [00:48:00] I was sat there with David Carson, I was like telling him about all of this, and he's well, I'm not convinced. And then he says, actually people like my masterclass because, you know, and there were no designers. And I'm like, yeah, that's because you've told them what you think and you've made that connection verbally first before they could ever be fans of David Carson's work.

[00:48:18] Radim Malinic: So that thinking headspace, I think we underestimated at our younger age how much valuable that is because we are itching to get stuff done. Whereas having the space to think is so valuable. 

[00:48:29] Oliver Jeffers: Yeah. The space to think, but also being in the right mood for it, as well, which, you know, whenever you're juggling a lot of things that, that doesn't always align.

[00:48:37] Oliver Jeffers: But,I've learned that, you know, some weeks you get a day's work done and then in some days you get a week's work done and it's as long as you get enough of those over the course of a few months. 

[00:48:47] Radim Malinic: Is there a book that you wish you had written or created?

[00:48:50] Radim Malinic: Is there anything that's out there that you'd be like, oh, that's Masterpiece? 

[00:48:55] Oliver Jeffers: Yeah. Do you know what the, I was thinking about this recently. do I have a copy of it here? I don't [00:49:00] think so, but there's there's a book called, the Enemy by Surge Block, and it's a beautiful, simple story about,Two soldiers in either side of a, an battle and what they think the other person is. and it's just them in the, trenches, and just the beautiful simplicity of it. And then they both sneak over and discover the other, the others layer and realize that they're just like them.

[00:49:21] Oliver Jeffers: it's wonderfully done. So that's one that springs to mind. 

[00:49:25] Radim Malinic: That's amazing. I need to look it up. I've never heard of that one. 

[00:49:27] Radim Malinic: one of the things I've taken from your recent conversation is you said be violently yourself. And that to me seemed like a rallying cry that should be written and pretty much on every sort of town center, for people to actually do that.

[00:49:42] Radim Malinic: Because when you said it, it's a beautiful dance of three words, but it means so much because you can calm someone down with this at any point of their life, you know, been winning or being losing. if you are violently yourself, then there's [00:50:00] nothing to compete for because like the feelings of competition or comparison almost fall away instantly 

[00:50:05] Oliver Jeffers: they do.

[00:50:05] Oliver Jeffers: And just to clarify, I am a pacifist, but it's the, it's that sense of just, the surge of,the fire in you that needs to get out and it's that, and it's just not allowing the, I suppose that external validation to draw you like a carrot on a stick.

[00:50:20] Oliver Jeffers: It's gotta come from somewhere inside and the reasons that you wanna be doing things and the reasons that you wanna be making that you, there's the old us or why quote, they always said, be yourself. Everybody else has taken. But Cher said something which I think was better, which is, uh, all of us invent ourselves.

[00:50:34] Oliver Jeffers: Some of us just have more imagination than the others, 

[00:50:37] Radim Malinic: Would you say it takes a while? It takes a while to accept who you are and how you do things in such a noisy world? 

[00:50:44] Oliver Jeffers: it definitely takes a while to accept through your and how you do things. For some people it happens sooner than,later.

[00:50:48] Oliver Jeffers: Some people land into it through. Whatever set of circumstances that they do for me, I was lucky to get to that point in my early twenties, but even then, there's still moments of self-doubt and moments [00:51:00] of, unproductivity. but it's the, I suppose the, that kinda very obvious center of, center of self.

[00:51:07] Oliver Jeffers: And the reason that I'm doing things hasn't changed the direction which I go, that meanders, across a range of places. So it's not like there's a direct star and there's a straight line to it, but it's the reason that I'm doing any of it hasn't changed.

[00:51:20] Radim Malinic: That's fantastic. Oliver, thank you for joining me today. I've absolutely cherished this conversation, because you've allowed yourself to be, you know, every color of human, which doesn't hold anything back. So I feel you are one of the most eloquent artists out there who makes the world of creativity and world at large better place.

[00:51:39] Radim Malinic: So thank you so much for what you do. Thank you for saying so. Cheers deserved. Thank you. Thank you for listening to this episode of Daring Creativity Podcast. I'd love to know your [00:52:00] thoughts, questions, and suggestions, So please get in touch via the email, in the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me. Radim Malinic.

[00:52:09] The audio production was done by Neil Mackay from 7 million Bucks Podcast. Thank you and I hope to see you on the next episode.

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