Pablo Juncadella is co-founder and partner at Mucho, the Barcelona-based branding and identity studio approaching its 25th year. In this conversation, Pablo traces a career built on unlikely advantages — dyslexia, collective thinking, and an editorial background that taught him to treat brands as stories told in headlines. ~

From working on El País at 22 through Pentagram London, to becoming creative director of The Observer at 25, to building a studio with offices across Europe and the US, his path has been one of constant curiosity, deliberate humility, and a refusal to lower the standard of what design can do.

Takeaways:

• Creativity is not visualisation — it's the ability to see from a different perspective and bring others there
• Dyslexia, and conditions like it, place you naturally outside the majority — that position is the seed of creative advantage
• Ideas are preludes, not destinations — falling too in love with one prevents the better version from arriving
• The best early careers involve challenges larger than your current capability — that gap is exactly where you grow
• Collective intelligence outlasts individual ambition; a studio with its own identity can evolve beyond any one person's needs or energy
• Client satisfaction is a baseline, not a ceiling — the real job is to hold higher standards than anyone asked for
• Frustration is not a sign of failure — it's the engine that keeps the standard from quietly dropping
• Visual language is the most universal language; use it to bridge cultures, industries, and disciplines
• Design builds on what came before — your job is to contribute to the wheel, not just spin it
• Longevity comes from curiosity, adaptability, and the willingness to learn from the person sitting across the table

Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic

daringcreativity.com |  desk@daringcreativity.com

Books by Radim Malinic Paperback and Kindle > https://amzn.to/4biTwFc
Free audiobook (with Audible trial) > https://geni.us/free-audiobook
Book bundles  https://novemberuniverse.co.uk

Lux Coffee Co. https://luxcoffee.co.uk/  (Use: PODCAST for 15% off)
November Universe https://novemberuniverse.co.uk (Use: PODCAST for 10% off)

Pablo Juncadella: So design is this big wheel that we have to try and move on every project that we do every time.

And putting the standards of what you do very high and it's non-related to what's going on today, but how do you contribute in something. That moves the wheel to design that so that somebody else can build on that. And I believe that this is something we have to try on every project and we will fail 99.99999% of the time.

Radim: Yet you have to have the courage to the next day with the new client, with the new project. Think, okay, maybe on this one I can create something that not only is effective to my client, but Moves the wheel of design  Welcome to the Daring Creativity Podcast, a show about daring to forever explore creativity that isn't about chasing shiny perfection. It's about showing up with all your doubts and imperfections and making them count. It's about becoming more of who you already are. My name is Radim Malinic I'm a designer, author, and eternally curious human being.

 I am talking to a broad range of guests who share their stories of small actions that sparked lifetime discoveries, taking one step towards the thing that made them feel most alive. 

 Let me begin this episode with a question. Are you ready to discover what happens when you dare to create? 

Radim: Today I am speaking with Pablo Juncadella, co-founder and partner Mucho, the Barcelona based branding studio he's been building for nearly 25 years. Pablo's journey started with dyslexia, which he actually understood as a gift. 

It's his ability to see the world from a different perspective, from redesigning newspapers in his mid twenties to building a global studio rooted in collective intelligence. His path has always been shaped by curiosity, humility, and an insistence on moving the wheel of design forward.

In this conversation, we explore how limitations become superpowers, why every idea is only a prequel to a better one, and what it truly means to bring poetry, not just solutions to every problem that lands on your desk. It's my pleasure to share with you my conversation with Pablo John cela.

 Hey Pablo, it was great to see you today. How are you doing?

Pablo Juncadella: Hi, great to be here.

Radim: I'm excited to have you here and I always am, I'm excited because what you have achieved, what you do, where you standing in an ecosystem of creativity today. It's a very unique space and you guys do an incredible work and yeah, I really wanted to know today, what it was like to be.

In the front of branding and design in the year of 2026. But let's introduce you first. who are you, what do you do?

Pablo Juncadella: Yeah, my name is Pablo Cella, And I'm part of this collective called I started my career in the city of Barcelona from which I work and have the offices from. And I'm part of a few partners who lead mocho into, I don't really know what really into projects and into making the best out of every opportunity that we get to work with clients.

I would say that's a fair presentation of myself on the professional side. On the personal side, I'm a dad of a 15-year-old daughter and husband to a linger designer. That somehow sums who I am.

Radim: Fantastic. I wanna know about both sides because being a dad to a 15-year-old, we all find ourselves world where creativity is still what drives us forward. But our vision gets a little bit confused by the world of ai, the disappearance of junior roles.

Like obviously there is a cocktail of excitement and a nervous energy of what is going to be and what's gonna happen. So what's it like to be a dad to someone who is finding their feet?

Pablo Juncadella: I think connected to the idea of creativity and how you don't wanna impose anything to your kids, but you, of course, you're related to a certain way of thinking. And I've come to realize, and this I think works. As a dad and also we work with very young designers who are trying to find their way professionally.

Part of the culture of Mocho is almost helping the careers of others. And in that sense, always come back to the idea that creativity isn't absolutely needed for anything, but it's of great help to anything that you do, regardless of it being a creative job. Creativity is capability of seeing things from a slightly different perspective to the majority, and having the capability of making others go to that place.

and I find in fact works everywhere. we tend to confuse creativity to the capability of visualizing stuff, but it's, there are really two different things. I'm a firm believer that the best lawyers are creative lawyers. The best businessmen are creative businessmen, and those are people who have or have acquired the capability of seeing things from a slightly different perspective and bringing people to that perspective.

Radim: I love what you're just telling me. That's very good. 

Pablo Juncadella: you mentioned something really important, which is you said as mucho obviously you helping people find their careers to find their ways and with the direction of your travel, obviously you were once upon a time, a young designer, went into the world to find yourself.

Radim: How much of help did you get on your journey that you now trying to either pass on or try to do better to what you received?

Pablo Juncadella: I have to say, I feel like somebody who's been completely blessed by advice from others, from people making me better, whether those were my bosses or my colleagues. They've come from very different places. But I've always since the beginning, it was my partner, mark and I professionally, and I would say that even back in the school days, I was always part of a.

Collective I was very aware very soon of what the things that I was strong in, but I had always a very clear idea of those areas where I wasn't that strong. and I've always been very blessed in my professional career by advice, by people really being very nurturing you to the contrary of the general vision of what the work of a designer, of the community of designers is perceived as.

 I think it's a very welcoming community if you take the time to ask people about things and ask the right questions, I've never found a single designer that I admired or that I really wanted to know things from that wouldn't give me a, an honest answer and would be nurturing and helping.

and in that same way, I feel obliged to, pass that on and be part of the community and build a community within my workplace. And of course, this is a comp, competitive environment, environment that lives with a lot of pressure of constantly having to deliver excellence. but we never should lose sight of that.

Part of the thing where we're all creative, we're all in this big wheel, and we're all aiming to become better at what we do. And as long as we're all in that same place, I think very important to be generous and share, and that's exactly what you're doing here. And no. And then the reason why it makes sense to be having these conversations.

Radim: Absolutely. I'm, loving the deep gratitude for the journey because not many people can say they feel blessed, but I believe the reason why you say you feel blessed is because, as you said, you always aware of what you're good at and what you need to learn. And being part of a collective already seems to let go of that sense of identity because it's hard to know who you are and what you want to do at an early age, but sometimes case of a loan architect I'm gonna build my career.

I'm gonna do this. This is what I believe the world should be like, and that's what I was, and in your case, you're like, I am here for us. And I think one obviously what I would understand, I one of the breakthrough points that make you feel go after what you want with slightly more wider lens.

Being more confident, even though it's still early days, you've got that gratitude. Because what makes me think that you've got space to actually learn and grow from people is because it was a slightly less noisy time. And I keep repeating this on this podcast forever, but now the world out can make you feel that you need to be someone really quick.

Like it's moving faster. We got, we've lost the innocence. But in your case, would you agree that there was more innocence, there was more time, there was more space for conversations and it didn't feel as pressured.

Pablo Juncadella: So I'll tell you where this is all coming from, and I think when I say that I feel blessed, it's because. I was also very, dyslexic. And this is also common ground to many people who are creative. and so it was very clear to me right from the beginning what things was I gifted for and when things I was starting the race a few meters behind everyone.

for that, you very fastly realize there's a couple of things that you need. One is you're gonna have. To end up at that race at the same place that everyone, so you're gonna have to put more hours in, in those areas where you are not as gifted. And also the majority of people are just okay at everything they do when you are very bad at most of the things, but you find out that you are, fast finding shortcuts because that's the way for survival when you're very dyslexic.

And also that you have a visual mind precisely because of the limitations. Then you have a tendency to do the things that you are Better gifted for. and so in a way that selection to somebody like me was already done. It was DNA. And it's a question of being lucky enough to understand it soon and get through with it.

 And then there's the contrary side, which is the majority, which is people who are, like I said, gifted to most of things and then making a call seems to me that it's the hardest thing to do. and back, going back to being a dad, I see that my daughter is more or less okay in everything that she does.

suddenly feel that I was very lucky that I was basically shit at everything up, aside from a couple of things, and so the selection was done for me. So have a hard time giving advice. Because I feel also very lucky in that sense, I was in an environment where I was nurtured enough around me to make the best of it.

Radim: This is interesting about dyslexia because. It does feel like you have a handicap and you said you feel like you start behind the starting line and you need to get yourself to the starting line because most people are in fact, everyone I have spoken to who have openly talked about their dyslexia and their experience of it, which was never fine, like it was never like, okay, I'm dyslexic and everything else is fine.

It was like, I'm dyslexic and I'm really struggling in the world. All of those people have turned into superpower. All of those people have managed to overcome it because I think even though it sounds like a crippling anxiety, like a crippling handicap for some people, it gives you almost extra sense of how do you go and succeed because can feel that the world is a bit unfair that you've got this, but ultimately it gives you a bit of a different drive, as you said felt I was shit at everything. it can feel crashing that you feel like that and you know that what you've been given what I call the vehicle our bodies obviously are hardwired minds and brains and all that it, no one is the same, but of having this condition can make you feel feel like, why is the world unfair? It's interesting how you said it. 'cause I feel it was a way to try harder actually. 

Pablo Juncadella: Yeah. And also the great advantage is that you are naturally placed. In a different perspective to the majority. So going back to this idea that creativity is the capability of seeing things from a slightly different perspective. People who have certain conditions are in a naturally, in a place that is different to the majority, and that is the key.

If you become agile enough, it's the key to creativity because you are naturally there.

Radim: That's really interesting when you said seeing things from different perspective, when you think about it, you've been given that by nature because you don't see the things from the Same way. You have to find your way to see the things, how other people see it. Would you say that?

Pablo Juncadella: Yeah, my first. 10, 15 years of my career where being an editorial designer doing newspapers I've had always a hard time finishing an article to, to read but I realized that I looked at text in a different way that I could see headlines from the shape of it.

and I was quite equipped to, make headlines to do smart connections in work in handy in the newspaper world. So that's a practical example where somebody who's having a hard time reading can be a very successful editorial designer in, territories like newspapers, where it becomes very technical hard to understand and hard to really deal with.

Radim: I am curious about the shapes of headlines. How did you see it? What was that? Do you have a condition when you've got, let's say, a condition for letters? I have a way that certain collection of letters makes me feel something. I don't

know if that's a proper connection, but, 

Pablo Juncadella: Yeah, I have a tendency to look at the words, but look at the shapes, and of course after you need to understand what the whole thing is about. But really you have a natural inclination to shapes more than you do to content so you are less limited to being loyal to exactly what the words are saying, but more inclined to understand or see tension compositions and that in magazines, newspapers, it is about how an image works with a certain word or a certain typeface and I think It's a slightly advantage, but it's advantage that in the 

visual world, can work wonders. 

Radim: But when you talk about editorial, obviously you've got limitations, you've got your page sizes, obviously you got a top font sizes, obviously you need to stick to some hierarchy templates editorial style. How did you find it? Did you feel like it was a two worlds pulling at each other?

did you it sounded like a freedom in limitation with a disadvantage that gave you an expression.

Pablo Juncadella: Yeah, of course. The newspaper days are long gone, and only a few great designers great organizations still get to do it at, the best level. but in the end, it's the same thing with anything in design, the limitations. Are there, and it's making the best of those limitations turn something from a good design to a brilliant one.

So the rules and regulations and the limitations in specifically on, newspapers or magazines or editorial have been there for ages. They've been tested. And the beauty of it is that there's still creation. There's still things that are added to, from something whose rules and structures we've known for ages.

And of course they need to be respected. They can be challenged, but they have to be challenged always with meaning behind it. So it's small things and certainly having that superpower that you refer to somehow help, but it's always within the boundaries and the beauty of it, it is that 

is within those boundaries. 

Radim: my role here is to join the dots. And I'm now curious how did a dyslexic designer ended up being working on the magazines and newspapers like

 that, is, that is not a trajectory I was expecting to hear. so 

get 

to it. 

Pablo Juncadella: to be honest, I have a few legendary fuck ups that I did that ended up being printed. I had the privilege to work for a designer called Fernando Gutierrez in Barcelona, in Paolo Martin, which had this studio that was doing.

Editorial, but also identity and graphics and so forth. So we never really made a, difference between one or the other. It just so happens that from then Fernando was made a partner at Pentagram and we moved on and the biggest client he had was to redesign El Pais. So I was age 22 and having to work in newspapers, which are a very technical environment and my partner, mark and I used to be Fernando's team and we worked with El Pais for a couple of years.

So by the time we'd ended this. Process or this this time at Pentagram where we were mainly doing this project we were experts in newspapers. So yes, I had certain limitations, but again, I knew I had those limitations too. So when it came to writing a headline, of course when you work at a newspaper, everything's double and triple checked and it's very hard your mistakes get through.

But but I always found ways to go around it, and editorial design isn't that different to anything that I say that one of the advantages of having working for a few years with newspapers is that, they're the kings of storytelling and design, what we call corporate entity.

Turn it into branding by introducing narratives to brands. And the fact that we came from that editorial background, it was always about telling stories. And to me, there isn't a big difference between designing spread of a magazine than it is to do narrative for a brand.

 so that was a natural post in between starting Muto. Our first client was the Observer. So redesigning the newspaper at age 25, we were creative directors of The Observer when you might remember this time where the, all the monthly magazines, the Music Monthly, the Sports Monthly were in place.

So the last, I think the last great area newspaper. So we got to really work with brilliant writers who could tell stories who, and see the power of a narrative. And graphics to it. So I think that work wonders to building Mutual, and I think it's really much embedded in the way we understand brands in which it's the power of visualization, of explaining stories in a very simple way in hierarchy of information where brands are also explaining in headlines and then pull calls and then text there is three or four levels of in depth that you can get to relating to a brand.

And it's no different to telling 

a story on a newspaper. 

Radim: What? And so that's interesting. So I got to find out that you didn't actually choose to go and work on a newspaper. Actually, that word came to you. Do you remember how you felt as a dyslexic designer and going, oh shit, we're doing what newspaper.

Pablo Juncadella: No, the thing is I didn't turn dyslexic. I was always dyslexic. these are things that I've looked back at it and thought, oh, cause I, ' cause when it came to being a graphic designer, I seemed like somebody who was really gifted so my flaws.

I'd have ways of hiding them. So I've always been dyslexic and it's something that I've always had to deal with. And it's only after That I've realized, oh, hold on. Why are certain things for me easy, that seem to be very hard to others? and my answer is that my limitations have created also virtues, and I just try and make the best of it. I never thought much of, I really like doing magazines and newspapers, regardless of me having a hard time reading them understanding them or having to read an article three times. This is something that by that time, I was already 

accustomed to it. 

Radim: That makes perfect sense. So you mentioned that you were, you guys worked a few years in Pentagram and then you started with Mark. You started Mocho.

 How long ago was it? 20 years you guys worked

Pablo Juncadella: Mocho will be next year, 25. Yes. so I started very early. I started working in my last year of design and I worked

for a year with Fernando in Madrid. and then joined Pentagram, stayed about two years and then from then went straight to start Mocho and our first client was to redesign the Observer.

So, yeah, I was age 25 when we got the observer job, and I was working on redesigning El Pais, age 22. 

So yeah, very early. 

Radim: so here's an interesting connection. 'cause normally I make a connections between my guests work life ambitions stories. But when you said you redesigned observer about 25 years ago, It was the Guardian newspaper and observer that inspired me to get into creativity because one day I had that eureka moment.

I was like, I came from music background. I was all into death, metal, gory images all of that. What I see now as a tribalistic branding systems. Like you have the, you never have a problem knowing what niche music artists are because they stay within the category. But I was remember, I remember literally getting a copy in the UK of the Guardian, opening The Observer, and it was such a dynamic and interesting time.

I was like, wait a minute. this vastness of information has to be created every day. There's a logic to it. And all of a sudden talked about like newspapers or magazines being the kings of the storytelling, it was the sum of many parts that came up with this overall feeling.

For me, it was like, I want to do this. And of course it was the good time of Helvetica everything was in Helvetica I love Hal Vica a lot. But so that's interesting. 'cause join the doors with what you did inspired me 25 years ago to get into what I'm doing now. and, it give me a love for typography because the way it was designed, laid out.

Maybe it was your shape, I dunno, for headlines. the way you designed it came to me. So here we go. I didn't know that.

Pablo Juncadella: Yeah. to be honest, I think The Guardian, the observer, had such an amazing design culture where they understood the superpower of design As a key only to reading and not only to serve a purpose, but also to being brightness and bring inspiration through design.

the Guardian has had amazing creative directors and an amazing culture of design. So has the observer. And I was very lucky to land that job at very early age and work at a very hard level, but also I think one of the best. Takeaways that I got from that experience, which seems to me almost like a another life ago right now.

 but it's this idea that be too precious to ideas. That newspapers force you into a pace where you might get it really right a couple of times and you might get it wrong another couple of times. there'll be another chance the next day and I feel that this is, it's the right way to approaching our job where if we fall too much in love with certain ideas, sometimes those ideas are, they're prequel to a better one.

And it's really about doing the best that you can with the time that you have. And newspapers have this space where there's a moment where it has to go to print. That happens every week or in the case of the Guardian every day. and you have to deliver the best that you have for that day. And there'll be another day, the next day.

And in terms of gym, creative gymnastics, that is a unique environment, a unique way to train your brain. again, that's why I say I, I was blessed. 'cause this is something that when it happens to you at age 25 and having to lead a team of people who are from a very different culture than yours, and you get that privilege, then it's an amazing opportunity to build that gymnastics in your mind take it to the places where you are curious 

about and you wanna develop further. 

Radim: I am super curious about now, 25 years later, how do you reflect on my experience? Because as you said, it's a collection of so many different moments, as you said, different culture, different teams, in a kind way. You hadn't lived enough to know so many things about newspaper design. You've only been designer editorial for about three years, and all of a sudden you're in charge of something that's been in motion for.

A hundred plus years. So how did you feel that all of a sudden it's exciting, but it's quite also daunting. Me. ' there's, a lot of weight on your shoulders to get it right. 

Pablo Juncadella: but I think the comparison fair in the sense that the beginning of your career years feel much longer than when they do as you go on. No. And you will see this with your kids and going back to being parents for my daughter, three months is. As an ordeal of time was for us three months go really fast.

So yes, it was three years, but it was three years of being in Madrid, working for El Bais and working at a studio in Barcelona. Then going back to London and understanding the culture of Pentagram, spending two years at the culture of Pentagram and then going to the Observer at the same time. I was starting my own company in Barcelona, commuting back and forth.

So it was almost like dog years these were years where I was really immersed in, in my profession. Probably had very little time to anything else. and find that those are the years where you have the beginning of career years is where if you're lucky as I was to get opportunities to build on gymnastics then the rest is almost.

Collecting new experiences, working at a slightly slower pace finding that as years go by, you learn less from what you do. And then that becomes a different challenge where you're trying to find projects that become a challenge to your capabilities. And it becomes harder and harder.

And that's when it's a different story because you need to keep in love with what you do in order to do it right. But of course, the beginning of your career, everything's a challenge. every challenge is higher than your knowledge and it's an opportunity for you to catch up.

And I had the feeling that the first 

five, seven years of my career was always me facing challenges that were bigger than my capabilities. And I find that this is one of the reasons why you should probably start your career working for somebody else and make sure that, somebody else is very talented, because it'll naturally give you.

The opportunity to work in challenges that are much bigger than your capabilities or your knowledge, but you can 

catch up quite fastly. 

Radim: It is quite tricky to find someone who's who's good and generous and be able to learn from, because sometimes you can have people who are very bad, but actually that also helps you to learn a lot more to realize that's not the way I think we should do it. But you've shared with me some incredible things, and I wanna go back to the ideas because as you said about creativity about seeing things from different perspective and not to be too tied to ideas.

That idea, an idea could be a prequel to even a better idea.

How do you instead that in a culture of people who haven't had the chance to have five or seven years dealing with things that are much, much bigger? Because obviously you have to wake it up firsthand. So how do you encourage people to let go and actually see the idea as a prequel rather than the final destination?

Pablo Juncadella: So yes, it really takes a very specific kind of person to understand this because at the beginning, or at least this is the way I saw it when I was working for somebody else, is you were providing those ideas and two layers. No. The first layer of judging, which is your boss or somebody who's the creative lead, and you are there to help them either have ideas or make those ideas grow.

If the idea comes from somebody else, you are there to make it grow. And I find that the beauty of our job is that there is a reason for pride in everything that you do. So whether chance is to look at the letting of text to you, came up with a great idea to anything in the middle.

There's an opportunity to see yourself feel proud of that piece. and I always encourage people in our team to feel proud to the biggest of scales. And this is something I learned at Pentagram. come from a Latin country. And you would hear people say, we've done this and we've done that.

And I was like, you haven't done this. We in Pet London, this is something that happened somewhere in the us. Yet the idea of feeling proud of being part of a community is one of the things that are very important. But there are also opportunities to feel proud about the little details and everything in the middle.

I think this is one of the greatest things about our job is that creativity isn't just the idea or having that great idea, but also making that idea shift slightly to the left or to the right to make it from good to brilliant or making sure that the details are at the right place so that nobody even pays any attention to it.

That there is pride there too. So I think pride the most important element and you need people that, Feel that right. Have that patience to, see that their contribution might not be this time the big idea, but there are other opport places where he or she's going to have an opportunity to 

have a contribution.

Radim: I like it pride Sometimes I can feel that people can be proud of the smallest things and you think, is that enough? But I want to go to through the point where you said the longer I work, the less I learn from what I do.

Obviously 25 years is a long time to be running a business in always changing times.

So when you said for the first five to seven years, the things were far too big for you just to take them on. What does it feel like to have a 25 years of wealth and knowledge of running a business that is not always easy to run?

Pablo Juncadella: what it is, that. You learn from other places. so it used to be that somebody would knock on our door, and this was a very different project to what we'd ever done. if you look at our portfolio, it's a lot of us doing a lot of projects in very many different environments.

And we on purposely after doing the Observer, I could have done another three or four newspapers, but we on purposely, somehow went away from that world to learn from other types of projects, other types of clients, other types of challenges. so the challenges today aren't that much on the mechanism of design.

I know for a fact that we're gonna get there. It might take us longer, but we're gonna get there. so I, naturally used my time more on learning other places? No, the great thing of working with people who are good at what they do, and if you got good clients, it gives you an opportunity to learn from people who come from very different backgrounds to yours who are brilliant at what they So every project is an opportunity to learn about them. Of course you are not learning that much about what you are going to bring in, into the table, but it's a great opportunity to learn about the other person that you have in front of you. that is the way I kept in love with this job. 

Radim: the words that you told me at the beginning, you said that you were always a part of a collective and you were aware of what you're good at and what you're bad at. And now that makes me think that the way you work with people, obviously you, get the energy, the vibe, the information from the others that you would never be able to do it in seclusion because all of that made me think about the fact that you built, an international business mutual has got global presence.

What was that like to learn from other places? And there's the intricacy nuances of different cultures. The ways of how the local requirements are different. Of course the language of creativity and design is almost universal, but you've got the nuances that you sometimes need to adhere to.

So how was that 

Pablo Juncadella: I couldn't say how I did it because I didn't do it. We did it it's a collective intelligence. me, it's not my capabilities, it's the capabilities of the sum of all of us. And when, all of us, I don't mean only partner level of course I have my partner Rob, who's from the uk but has lived in the US for 30 odd years.

And my partner Tillman, whose origins are German, but is Spanish born my partner, mark and I, who are both Catalan, born from Barcelona, but from different environments. to that we've had people who come from very different cultures and the fact that we started working for different countries got us an opportunity to understand other cultures.

So by the time you get a second Italian client there are certain specificities and we spend a lot of time trying to say, okay, this is a project in an industry culture that we've never worked in. and you said it, I think the most international or global language that we all speak is the visual one.

So it needs ideas, visual ideas, but it also needs us wanting to. Team up with the client to understand the particularities of their culture, to be respectful to them and to learn from it, to excel so they're bringing the local knowledge. I, one of my phrases that I see myself repeating constantly is talk to clients, I'm not gonna give you advice on what you are, you are an expert in what you are.

I'm here as an expert in visual language and I will try to get from you the elements that I think are needed develop something that makes sense for you. but it's very important to really get that shortcut to your knowledge. And for that, we need you. This isn't something that you do in isolation because it never is authentic enough or 

meaningful enough to the organization. 

Radim: you mentioned pentagram or when you mentioned your business and a few similar businesses, the reason why they have survived 30, 40 years in some cases is because of adaptability about that willingness to look around the corner, because you can be hype in each business. That can have a time in the sun, you're doing some particular skill, particular output really, well.

And then the world shows up and does it as well as you, whereas element of collective intelligence, when you guys go where the curiosity goes seeing things from different perspective is the kind of way to have longevity in this. Because one type of food can feel really great for about 20 days

and then you get bored of it.

And I think for types of people like you and I and many others, it's like you need that variety, you need those new problems because as you said, you learn from other places. That cross pollination of ideas is that when you say that clients. You know who you are and we know what we can do for you.

It's like we can learn from others of how to connect things. So how did you see the growth of Mutual, just for that curiosity, was, did you ever feel like you have to do one thing ever?

Pablo Juncadella: No, we all had from the beginning, a very clear idea of, so here are individual needs, the things that Pablo needs as a designer, as a human being, but also Mucho has to have a say on those things. And coincide in, in what territories do we coincide?

We treat Mucho as if it was. Another partner, somebody who has its own life. and in, in that sense, I think organizations such as Pentagram ourselves have a very clear idea of individuals and community. And it's funny enough that we earn our living building brands, yet we seem to not be that great at building our own brands and often because if you are building a brand that is only your name and it's only about you, it can only go as far as your ambitions, your needs, your energy.

And of course we go through phase in lives where our energies are in different places and it generates a dependence on the individual that is very hard to be one thing or the other. If you are projecting. A collective or a brand that represents a collective that doesn't, of course it has its complications and it has its problems, but it very rapidly becomes smarter than you becomes this thing that can be a beast that could eat you up.

but if you keep going back to what your needs are as an individual and what the needs of the organization are, and I truly believe there'll be a day where I'll see my needs and see the needs of the organization. I might say, you know what? My needs are no longer aligning with the needs of an organization.

And that's where Pentagon is brilliant in the sense that they've built a system in which they recycle the needs of individuals within an organization. And I think that's one of the reasons. And of course the way they do it is very different to the way we do it. They project individuals within the organization.

We. Try not to have, and we have our reasons for that type of stuff, but it really is about nurturing a brand and nurturing the individual needs of people. and again, this goes not only at level, at partner level, but also at stage the company. 

Radim: When you said it's Pablo's needs and there's a individual needs and there's a mocho as the fifth partner, what are your needs? What do you bring? 'cause as you said one day, that will not matter anymore, but what do you bring to the table personally that you stand strong behind?

Pablo Juncadella: I have the need to work in a community to be heard by my colleagues. to help others grow within the organization. I have a certain need to be useful as who has developed a certain agility to do things. So it comes naturally to me. and as long as those things are being put to use in the organization, I'm absolutely fine because of course it might be different for me 'cause I was there the first day of Mocho and I have partners that came at other point.

But to me the biggest project I've done or will do in my life is building this thing that has its own life. I'll be very happy if this thing growing. And when I mean growing, I don't mean becoming bigger. I mean growing in the sense that you were saying no, design goes different places and it learns from those places.

And there might be a moment where I'm less interested in those places, but I'm still valuable to the organization and I'm hoping that somebody else in the organization is interested in those 

places that I might not be in. 

Radim: There's two words you mentioned quite a few times and sometimes you mentioned the word or the other word, which is help or grow. Not like this needs high, the idea needs able to help or to grow. But when you talk about what you do is it's to helping to grow. Like it's helping to move. It's keep the onward trajectory and I think that kind of summarizes 'cause, summarizes what you do.

'cause takes us back to being around other people at the sort of earlier stages of your career. And that's what you're bringing back because as you said, I wanna, my values and my needs are the community. And to be heard it's like, how can you. Allow your perspective with other people's perspective in actually creating so which to together add something to, very meaningful and valuable.

So help to grow the carry of this conversation because exactly what you do with Mocho you guys create these brands that don't feel cookie cutter, like they feel very much a creative brand and it doesn't feel, over time, it feels actually more rooted in the brand heritage or creating brands that have got their unique voices.

Because I think part of the longevity of the studio like yours the ones at the others you mentioned is that sometimes they can seem a little bit in the view of the trend or from the view of the trend, you can seem as a bit more old fashioned. oh, you guys are not doing this stuff.

You're doing this. you're not using 3D visualization. You're not doing this you're not using the latest gimmick or 

tag. So let's say once upon a time I was on that on that journey with my branding studio, where I was like, what is the next thing?

Sometimes more in the view of the execution rather than in the view of the overall strategy or legacy. So with the work that you guys do, and I like that you guys claim that you bring unique perspective to every project. You bring more ways of looking. More ways of thinking.

More curiosity. More curiosity to discover what is needed now. And imagination to create was never been seen before. Those values, they are not old fashioned, but they can seem like you are rooted in the legacy of you because they're outward looking, but very strong you no where you're standing right now.

Pablo Juncadella: Yeah, I happen to think that, this is me more than I wouldn't say that everyone in the organization thinks this, but I happen to think that we're there to contribute. So design is this big wheel that we have to try and move on every project that we do every time.

And putting the standards of what you do very high and it's non-related to what's going on today, but how do you contribute in something. That moves the wheel to design that so that somebody else can build on that. And I believe that this is something we have to try on every project and we will fail 99.99999% of the time.

Yet you have to have the courage to the next day with the new client, with the new project. Think, okay, maybe on this one I can create something that not only is effective to my client, but Moves the wheel of design and and that can bring a lot of frustration because it's putting your work at the highest standards and not really thinking that much.

What's going on today, what happened in the past it's really understanding where the client, it's also making the client happy, but as the base of what you do, not as the objective. My objective isn't to make our hap our client happy. It is the beginning I do. Of course it has to be happy, but I am the one who brings.

The standards of design and the standards of design are very high to the point where I will be frustrated with the result every time. Because I know this could have been better if I had another day, if I had another opportunity, if my client was a little bit more ambitious, if I had a slightly more talented or would've explored 3D or this or that, I maybe could have done it better.

And I think that frustration, focus on trying to erase that frustration, but that frustration is in fact the engine of creativity more or less. it's the fuel of creativity. The fact that you might have on the next project you will have another chance to try and move the wheel of design.

I don't know if that answers your question, but it's the way I think about trends today. 

Radim: You've said many amazing things in there because I was gonna ask you about if the meaning of failing, because I always go back to a quote by a cycling coach called Charlie Gels when he was talking to his team before the race and Tour de France, and he says, we are gonna lose a lot on a way to win a stage, but we can't fail because to fail it means that you're not doing what you wanna do in a way you want to do it. So I think our way of working with clients. It doesn't necessarily fail, but we are losing the daily sort of stage of our work looking into it.

Like what is it that we do? Because that relationship between winning, losing failure, success, it's so fragile and fraud because used to say that our creative industry is based on four elements, ambition. Ego and insecurity anxiety because it's just you think you're winning, you think you're losing.

You just, you never know what it is. But what you're so beautiful and eloquently describing here is that it's a process. It's a daily process because you are not finished that day. Your idea is a prequel to a better idea. And it's like, how do you actually help people grow in a way to understand that this is a continuous journey?

Because, as you said for your daughter, three months can seem like an ordeal of time.

 And a project that's dragging on for a week might seem like an ordeal to a young designer. Whereas in your case it must feel different now 

Pablo Juncadella: and also I think there are those who if you think of designers, the big wheel, there are those who came before you it's very important to know. The wheel is and you might think you've done the most creative thing, but if you put it on the perspective of the big wheel of design, what is really, honestly are you just replicating things that are now being done or that were done in the past?

 Or are you contributing somehow? You're using this, we have a lot of confusion about this new, fresh, this type of stuff. When in fact scientists won't start from scratch. They always based everything on something somebody who came before you.

creativity same sense, where you have to have a sense of what is happened, who's explored what, who moved the wheel of design in order for you to be conscious of are you actually moving the wheel of design by doing this and assuming. That you're never fully successful.

That there's always if you think of this in failure terms, you fail every time and you're going to be failing for the rest of your life because the day it's perfect. The day either your standards aren't in the right place or it's the time for you to retire.

'cause managed to do it. So to me, failure is not a problem. and I don't really see success. As real success. It might be success to somebody oh, yes, that won an award. It's only successful in one aspect of what you did, or the client was happy. Yes, it's only successful in that territory, but it never is completely successful.

And your job is to really understand, okay, this is a place to learn for the next time. And yes, we can we can celebrate as much as you want. And I'm not denying the celebratory aspect. And in fact, I think we have to be positive I'm a very optimistic type of designer, but You always fail at something, you could do it better the next time and you could learn from it. And to me it's a simple matter of fact, and I believe everyone around me in Mocho has that same feeling. Yeah. Where yes, we've done right this here and there. And of course I have to do talks and talk about my work.

And of course it's only the sites that shine, but I know the hidden corners. I know the places where 

it could have been better. 

Radim: I love your honesty. I love your honesty in a way that you've put the discomfort, the friction in the forefront of what you're saying, but then you still say I'm a positive designer because you're a realist. you are in a place where you've seen. The inner workings of how to create these things.

You've had the experience of actually jumping through hoops as you said having quite a few fuck ups just like everybody else. ' cause it's a continuous journey because when you try to see, I always say that the creativity is called marketing problem. 'cause it on the outside it almost promises you like, Hey, join this and you'll be creating all of these things only to realize that behind all of the shiny veneers or the end results, it's like, it's a hard work.

It's not just like things just come together really not easily. , by a chance it's just the work behind it because don't never have a an ask for a bus driver going, Hey, drive this bus and it will make you happy. Or do this and that will make you happy. We somehow feel that our expression our being through creativity can somehow enable us to find something that we are lacking. In the way you describe it and what, how the way really is, it's like you will find the happiness of creativity in the service to others. I think we all feel that with the attachment of our success or egoism, okay, hey, I've created this, I should be celebrated. That's not a problem with creativity.

that's for a therapist to find out what you're lacking in your life you need a validation from someone close to you. Not rather than hoping that the public will show up and, give you that. Yeah, I like it because what you're saying is the community aspect, is the service to the others is it's gonna keep moving and knowing that where you're standing today, it's not the place you were standing 25 years ago ' this is a terrible analogy, but you moving every day forward, and being willing to come back and have your realistic on things that might be hard to do, but keep showing up and being obsessed about it every day.

Pablo Juncadella: also think this is the way to be set to keep sanity because your job is to deal with other people's problems all the day. Nobody comes to you if they don't have a problem. You are not needed as a designer and you not only need to deliver problem solving, you need to bring poetry to the table.

and because it's not only about solutions, it's about virtue too. How do you do this? And the way you do this is by still keeping hopeful and positive. this job can. Bring you down because you're having to be empath to other people's projects. other people's problems, take them on yourself and add to that your ambition with your projecting to the project.

This anxiety of wanting to move the wheel of design, if you're somebody who's ambitious about the general picture of design and these things keep piling up and piling up. And unless you find ways to keep a positive mind find brightness where you are having to take on all these problems, very hard to keep up on 

a profession for long enough. 

Radim: You have nailed it on the head because if other people haven't got a problem, you haven't got work. And what happens? They pass the problem onto you.

And our assumption is it's not a problem. It's an opportunity, but it's an opportunity wrapped in a problem. If you think about it, like the opportunity is there to create something, but ultimately what you said beautifully is yeah, it's someone else probably we have to deal with.

We naively tell ourselves, oh, it's an opportunity. I love this. But one thing you said in the same answer was that you have to bring poetry to the table.

That's a lifelong commitment even to say that sentence. To bring the poetry to the table is I can see things from a different perspective.

Pablo Juncadella: I have to say that honestly, if you look at the work that we do and you mentioned it, how it has somehow rooted time, somehow timeless ways of solving design and so forth. the way, the common ground between all of us and bear in mind that there's a lot of souls and energy put into the projects that you see in our portfolio that are very different those two things.

The idea that, okay, there's a problem and you're there to solve it, but you're also there to solve it in style, bring virtue, bring poetry there's a certain visual poetry that doesn't mean beauty. Something can be very ugly and be the solution of a problem. and somehow be poetical, and I'm a firm believer of not only solving a problem, but solving it with a hint of visual poetry of, that something that is very hard to understand. It's very hard to pass on. very hard to explain, but we, designers see it. you can see it where something that to somebody's only ugly for you has 

poetry. 

Radim: You said earlier that one day when my needs are gone, I'll think differently about it. But in this final answer, what you just described, you in for the long run, you in it for the long run because. To explain the way work and how what you want to get out of it is very unique. it's a very much a poetry in itself because if you care so much about the work, you will always find a way to see things differently, how you can help other people, how you help them grow, what you can do with it.

So I am very happy we had a chance to have this conversation because I've learned so much more about you, about how you work, and it's given me a different layer to see what Mocho does. And look, I'm excited about what's gonna happen next. So yeah, thank you for being 

here. 

Pablo Juncadella: no, it's a, an absolute pleasure this time to with you yeah. Hope to see you soon.

Radim: We'll have more conversations very soon.