Brazilian animator and Cookie Studio founder Thiago Maia shares his journey from a creatively free childhood in São Paulo to building a successful animation studio in London, followed by a mental health breakdown that forced him to redefine success.  ~

Growing up surrounded by Japanese culture and his mother's art gallery, Thiago developed a "magician" approach to creativity—saying yes first, then figuring out how to deliver. After moving to the UK with limited English and two suitcases, he worked his way up from serving coffee to running his own studio.

Despite outward success, Thiago experienced severe depression in 2021 that nearly cost him his business and marriage. Through therapy and honest conversations, he learned to prioritize freedom over growth, scaling down his studio to focus on what truly matters. Now divorced but happier, he channels his energy into being the father he wants to be and advocates for mental health awareness in the creative industry.

Key Takeaways

• Say yes, then figure it out: Thiago's "magician" approach involves accepting challenges and learning the skills needed afterward, building confidence through problem-solving
• Freedom trumps growth: Running a larger studio doesn't equal more freedom; sometimes scaling down provides the creative liberty you originally sought
• Mental health isn't weakness: Breaking the "boys don't cry" mentality and seeking therapy can be life-saving for creatives carrying emotional burdens
• Reconnect with existing networks: When rebranding or growing, leveraging established relationships proves more valuable than cold outreach to strangers
• Guide without controlling: As creative parents, providing tools and freedom to explore matters more than imposing predetermined paths on children
• Happiness requires honest self-reflection: Success metrics imposed by others may not align with personal fulfillment; regular self-examination prevents burnout
• Cultural influences shape creativity naturally: Thiago's Japanese-influenced aesthetic emerged organically from childhood experiences rather than strategic business planning
• Language barriers are temporary obstacles: Moving to a new country without fluency creates initial challenges but opens doors to perspectives impossible in your home environment
• Therapy provides structured thinking time: Professional help offers dedicated space for reflection in an otherwise noisy, distraction-filled world
• Purpose can evolve or remain undefined: Not having a clear "why" doesn't invalidate your creative journey; sometimes enjoying the process matters more than destination clarity

Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic

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Thiago: [00:00:00] You need to have your why, you need to find your why, where are you going, And I said, and I realized, I said, you know what? You don't, you can just sit there and drive and enjoy the ride, And I think forcing myself to have, where do I want to take the studio, what is my end goal and everything. I think that took out of the pleasure of the ride of the, to, that pressure constantly.

What is your purpose? where I wanna take this to? And not man, sometime we just wanna enjoy that, we just wanna drive and enjoy. And across and see where that take us. And I think that's the beauty nowadays, like you said, scaling down and have more freedom. I think that's the beauty, the scaling down because it has less on your shoulder than can give you, more time to think and to [00:01:00] change the direction you wanna do.

And you can go as that fits to you as well. Welcome to the Daring Creativity Podcast, a show about daring to forever explore creativity that isn't about chasing shiny perfection. It's about showing up with all your doubts and imperfections and making them count. It's about becoming more of who you already are. My name is Radim Malinic I'm a designer, author, and eternally curious human being.

 I am talking to a broad range of guests who share their stories of small actions that sparked lifetime discoveries, taking one step towards the thing that made them feel most alive. 

 me begin this episode with a question. Are you ready to discover what happens when you dare to create?

Radim Malinic: Today I'm speaking with Thiago Maia, Brazilian animator and the founder of the Cookie Studio based in London. [00:02:00] In our conversation about his creative and free childhood growing up, surrounded by Japanese culture and his mother's art gallery in Sao Paolo, Thiago developed a magician approach to creativity, saying yes first, then figuring out how to deliver after moving to the UK with limited English and two suitcases.

He worked his way up from serving coffee to running his studio. Despite output success. A few years ago, Thiago experienced severe depression that nearly custom his business and marriage. Through therapy and honest conversation, his scenes learned to prioritize freedom over Grove and to focus on what truly matters.

 Now he channels his energy into being the advocate for mental health awareness in a creative industry. It's my pleasure to share with you my conversation with Thiago May.

Radim: Hey, Thiago, welcome to the show.

Thiago: Thanks so much, man. Thanks for the invitation. I'm really excited to be here.[00:03:00] 

Radim: I think you're my first Brazilian on the show. I need to really check my notes, but I believe my first Brazilian, not my first Latin American, but first Brazilian. So, for those who may have never heard of you, Thiago Maya or Cookie Studio, how would you introduce yourself?

Thiago: Well, that is a really difficult question, man. It's, it is something I always ask myself. gonna introduce me like commercial way, but I'm Ja May. I'm the great director and founder of Cook Studio. I've been design and animator for the last 26 years, butI feel myself more nowadays. I like to say more like a magician.

I like to solve people's problem and, in a creative way. I'm not the best animator in the world. I'm not the best design in the world, but I make shit happen. That's what I do.

Radim: I love the word magician. I like it, especially in the creative industry. People like you to be a magician.

 sometimes you're no magician. And people want you to be a magician because as we all know, a lots of the creative work happens not under perfect [00:04:00] circumstances.

Right. They,don't happen in a way we would love to have them happen, but I've got a habit of rewinding things back with my guests and see how, where the creativity started at the beginning. And it was, as you said, 

 You've been animating for 26 years. I wanna find out like what was it like to be growing up in Brazil, where you're from, and what was it like to be a kid in Brazil and what was the creativity surrounding you Because. From wherever we else, from wherever else in the world, we've got this idea like, oh, it must be very creative country.

Must be very colorful. Must be amazing. But how was your childhood upbringing and creativity?

Thiago: Yeah, I think, going back to that time, I think on the great side, I think was really good. like you said, Brazil is a massive country, is huge in culture. Every state is a different, culture is the north and the south of the country is completely different just for people understand to fly from south to north of tics about eight hours flying to cross the country.

So, as you can imagine, it's a lot color, it's a lot, visual [00:05:00] expression and visual things. You learn and absorb all the time. But I've always been like a creative kid. I always really like doing things by hand, build, craft and things. My mom always let me. Play a lot, and be quite free, to do, like, when I was young teenager, I used to do cartoon, courses.

I always wanna draw. I never been a really good drawer, but I always wanna be illustrator or be involved in creative. My mom's, I think when I was about, I'm really bad with dates, but when I was about 14 years old, something around them, my mom had a gallery with a business partner. He was a painter as well.

So I used to spend a lot of time in the gallery. My mom had a lot of friends who was a painter. So I used to spend time on the gallery as well and trying things, painting, building things with plasticine and so I always be involved on the creative around me, but I think I always had the two side.

I never fell. [00:06:00] I am artist or creative then, well, I don't draw really good. I always had friends that draw a lot better. I always had people then do a lot better things than me, but I always like pushing. I used to love stop motion. I think that's was one of the main reason. Jump on the track here.

But I moved to UK because of argument, but. As a kid, I always had the freedom to explore. I think in our time, especially back in Brazil, I used to play on the street, I used to build my own little cars. Then we used to go down Rio down hills, and, play with that.

my mom didn't even know where I was the whole day. That with 10, 80 years old, I used to go to another countryside with two friends. was kid of my mom friend. I was eight. the couple was, seven wa was nine years old. We used to leave the school and walk for an hour alone in a seat to arrive to the swimming class.

And so imagine how [00:07:00] kind of my mom was on that time, my mom was a really, like a open spirit free, I think maybe too much, let's say like that, but made me the way I am. So I had a lot of freedom to explore things was really good.

Radim: I mean, there's so many things to unpack because yeah, I think your mom was a free spirit, but I think it's kind of a childhood of the eighties and seventies, isn't it? I mean, I've got very similar stories of just getting up at five or six o'clock in the morning, go to a hockey match across to town on my own when I was seven or eight.

I mean, it's just unbelievable to think that's what would be happening now. I mean we both have kids and you can't really imagine your child working for an hour through a swimming lesson with their pals. like everything's different now. But you mentioned that you had friends who were a lot better at drawing than you.

And I think we all have those friends. We all have those amazing friends who really are talented beyond belief. They're not creative today. None of them are really creative at least from the people that I knew. They're like, what did you do with your talent? what did you do? [00:08:00] Why did you disappear?

Because what I'm trying to see here with what you described so far, I wanna see what was the inspiration for you of stuff? Because obviously your mom had a sort of gallery with her business partner, there was lots of painting, there was lots of stuff, but was there any particular draw for you thinking, I wanna be as good as this, or this particular artwork inspires me or this magazine or, 'cause you said you were making cartoons and stuff, was there any pop culture or any type of design or any creativity that inspired you?

Thiago: when I was, young, I had a lot like inspiration come from outside, nothing then really stands out, wasn't the style I love but was the injection of creativity in my veins. then had the freedom to wow. Explore oil, paint, exploring, drawing, and I think with the freedom my mom gave me, let me do like little courses.

I think the biggest. Thing for me was back in the eighties, nineties in [00:09:00] Brazil, was cartoon on the tv. I used to love, talking to pink in the brain, human, all that kind of GI Joe and all that kind of things. but also we had. A lot influenced by the Japanese we used to have.

for who doesn't know? Sao Paulo, where I'm from, Sao Paulo is I think the fifth big sits in, in the world. And, Sao Paulo has the biggest Japanese commune outside Japan. So we don't have China Tower as like New York, London, our main key seats. We have Japanese ta, called Berda, called Liberty.

And it's all like with the lamppost. It's all like ta styles, like old styles. and I grew up with a massive Japanese community. One of my best friends in school was a Japanese Tiago as well, but he was Tiago Watanabi, his grandparents was Japanese, so we had a massive influence from food.

And,I love Japanese culture. since some, [00:10:00] I don't remember when, but little, so all the packaging, all the manga, everything, we could access that. And on the TV we used to have this, I'm talking before Spectrum man, I dunno if you remember that, but we used to have a one called Giah was a ninja, and was like a live action with big monsters, like little old style, pretty much what they call Power Ranger, the new version, but was like a old eighties, 90.

And they have this called Jas Pion as well, was a guy turned into a robot, massive and fight big monster. That was a massive. On my influence on my life. I still want to produce something on D Scale nowadays, I got really influenced by the kind of ninja and things my mom had also.

So my life is a mix of going to the math side because my brain is really, I'm really good in maths, but I always wanna push to the creative side, but I need to force myself to be a [00:11:00] good, drawing of things like that. I'm not, but, so I used to spend time on my mom's head. These friends, they used to have a garage, a kind of garage, and my mom was just fed up of me spending the whole day on, on the gallery and say, go there, I'm gonna ask them to give you a job.

 That I was probably like 12, 11 years old. So I used to spend time on the garage as well, washing like parts of car, helping them. But I have access all the tools. I'm fanatic for tools. I love tools. I used to go in like big supermarkets where it has a two shop, section with my mom and I used to stay there the whole time and my mom just used to wish so to call me and I hear was really loud and come back to her.

 So I used to do like a ninja stars, really sharp and throw things in my time. You could buy like, gun powder, really easy, 10 years old. I could buy gun powder, so I used to make smoke bombs and throw in place and things like that. So it's a kind of a big mix, inspiration on my early ages.

Radim: I [00:12:00] absolutely love this. There's so much in this and reminds me, I've been recently catching up on the, dead Dream book 

by the one and only David Lynch. And. There was a story like literally how him and his mate pretty much made a bomb and they were like 10 years old. I mean, when you rewind it back to what could be possible, it's in a way it's hilarious and it's like you're kind of lacking with some people that, I think in his story, like someone lost a foot, but they managed to sort it back on.

But what you're describing here is a beautifully free-spirited childhood full of explorations and discoveries. And I did not notice that Sao Paulo had in town or whatever. And I think what I can see now from the work that you do and from the influencers that you described, oh, that makes sense.

you've got your maths sort of part of your brain,all the sort of logical stuff is here and then the creative stuff is on the other side and you're beautifully mixed it together because what I see, what you do and how you do it and how you think about it, it's like, okay, I'm just got these dots and we can start joining them because it all makes perfect sense now.

 So 23 years [00:13:00] ago you came to England. what was the draw to get you here?

Thiago: Yeah, that's a good question, man. if we are gonna unpack this, it is a mix of feelings. so basically, as I said, my mom was a big free spirit. My mom used to live like in a kind of a fisher village in the coast of, Brazil. What? They didn't have lights or anything. And I have two sister, older sister, and my mom used to live with them.

I start living with my grandparents when I was young, before I was born. so my mom was working and my sister spent a lot of time with my grandparents. And so my grandfather was a pilot, and he end up, they end up moving to LA and he used to do La Tokyo. so my sisters moved with my grandparents to la So basically my two sisters start their whole life in American school, starting America and moved back to Brazil and stay in American school.

My grandmother was a [00:14:00] English teacher and I'm really bad with language really bad. that is the worst place I can go. So I grew up with basically my sisters, when they need to talk about me, they all talk in English with my grandparents and everything. I tried to learn English and was really bad, so when I was.

 21. I had a girlfriend, we broke up. I was really like, I'm gonna call depressed, but like kind of amo situation. you wanna put you down, listen shit, music make you sad, that kind of thing. But I got a job, I was working on the industry already and I got a new job and that job wasn't a really creative, was to do like things for politician in Brazil.

And I do like more shit commercials around. And, I was really unhappy and I always wanna move, and to learn English. So that was like the bottom for me. And I said, you know what? I'm moving. And as I said before, I always love [00:15:00] Europe and I always love England Special show.

I used to love stop motion. I used to like the first place I worked for the first three years we used to do a lot music videos, MTV stuff. So was really creative and we used to do a lot, uh, storm motion and man, I was in love with art man. I used to build my own rigs and try plus in and I said, you know what?

Fuck OI sold my car. I used to have a little Mackay, that I little colorful once monitor, I saw that. I said, I'm going and no one believe in like in three, four months. I had everything, bought my ticket and m going, didn't speak the language. I didn't know anyone didn't have iPhones or how to, man, I have until today is I have here, I have the map.

I moved to London, was a map that my grandmother came here a few times and even doesn't have a jubilee line. Jubilee line for who doesn't know was one of the latest lines. So doesn't exist there. And I move with the map, I study [00:16:00] the map. I knew how I gonna come, came with two massive suitcase until I get here was winter and everything get dark.

So for me it was, I always love explore and I think it's part of being a creative as well. I can't settle down in something for too long and and these build up as a kid then. Fuck, I need to learn English, because it's man being Brazil and I start working on the 90, 98. The only way you really learn software is doing ship or looking books.

You didn't have internet support there and books. You need to study English. So I could read the basic, but I needed to learn the language to be, to develop my career. So that was one of the biggest part for me.

Radim: I love the jump. I love that. this is what I'm going to do. This is gonna have, what's gonna happen, and that beautifully old map. When I'm being passed down in generation, serving you as a sort of [00:17:00] guide that, that's a beautiful setup for what's next. So you landed in the uk, you landed in London, you've got your map.

What happens next? Because as you said, you know your love for admin, for the stop motion for doing these things. That's the draw. The language is the second drawer. What did you do when you landed with your two massive suitcases? What happened next?

Thiago: Yeah, that, that is a good question. So like back in Brazil, we don't really, you don't really work in bars, restaurant, things like that. If you don't come from, let's say more like a poor class, so when I landed here, always been open, whatever comes to my, whatever I wanna do, I go in and do and whatever comes, I don't feel ashamed to do anything.

So I landed to this house, then had, I think 16 Brazilian people living in the house. Man, it was crazy. A mini kitchen, no living room. But it was good because I rented from Brazil and I had six weeks that paid and I need to find, and people. Help me to find work, because the difference of [00:18:00] the currencies is huge.

So I could stay for a few months here without, work. So I need to find work. So I landed a job in the Queensland Elizabeth Conference Center, doing setting like a tip space, cost based, I had like conferences that happened, serving food. And I did like dinner things. I work in the bar on the Royal Albert Hall.

I was the seller managing the Royal Albert Hall. So I fill up the bars. I used to love man, that used to be 'cause it wasn't my real job and it feels like I was in another life that really make me happy as well. So wasn't anything could go wrong, doesn't really matter, I could go back to my country or anything.

But that gave me the support to start meeting people, practicing the language and stuck. studying, I paid the school for one year. I was going to the school and working the free time. And that for me was like one of the biggest impacts time of my [00:19:00] life because of the whole experience I had. I would've never had that back in Brazil.

And that I think is a really strong, made me the way I am nowadays as well

Radim: How did you feel with your sort of early limited language abilities? How did you feel being thrown into sort of working on bars and especially dealing with people who are usually not able to speak properly at all?

Thiago: at all. Man. I couldn't speak at all. that was scary. I think that was the most scary part I can say. I remember, especially man, when you move to England, the amount of accent here, you get the northerns, you can't understand a fucking thing if you don't speak the language, you know?

I remember the first was on the conference and The guy gave me the job was a Brazilian guy, but he was a dick. I really hated him. And he put me with this old lady, English lady to do the cough and I couldn't understand a single thing. She said, I could speak like basically words, coffee, tea.

And I remember people asking [00:20:00] me, a cup of tea. Stan say that for me understand would be a cup of tea, but they used to say a cup of tea. And for me with no understand, it sounds like a cappuccino. And the only thing I could offer is a tea and a coffee. And I say, oh, do you want a coffee? No. Cup of tea and I said, if you's not coffee, I'm gonna serve tea.

and that went well in the beginning. I spoke with the other Brazilians ' cause it was a lot Brazilians work, but the guy was such a dick. He put me only with this old lady, like 80 years old, the old lady. I couldn't understand her or anyone talking to me, but I need to serve only tea and coffee. So it wasn't that bad.

But got in that situations like really funny situations. Then,I managed to keep the job on, let's say like that.

Radim: I can relate to it. I mean, I arrived in England two years prior to you and I thought I could speak English very well only to find out like, what is this thing? I mean, yeah. When you're speaking about Northernness and Scottish and whatever it was like, what? How, what do you [00:21:00] mean? you think that everyone speaks, Koreans English and all of a sudden realize no one speaks this.

I mean, don't even get me started on like Scouses and Liverpool and all. That stuff. I mean, it's all chaos in Newcastle, right? But you've got this sort of international impression of like what English is. And then I remember arriving and I'm just like, okay, pen and paper. What did you say?

What did you say? What's this word? What is that word? And it's just you switching to this sort of go mode, like you switching to okay, I need to work, well, I need to work out what these people are saying. Because yeah, for example, a cup of tea, like just say tea, right? A cup of tea, of course.

What would you want? A bucket of tea? Like it's this thing where you're like, oh, okay, you need to, and then you need to understand like the colloquialism, like okay, how brand names are part of the language. And you get, you realize, oh, this is what it all means. So that's always the reason why I wanted to ask you, because it can feel a little bit scary, but at that age, with that drive and with that sort of willingness to do anything, you're like, you know what, I'll happily be, not speaking right now properly, but I'm on a way to somewhere so.

[00:22:00] From distinguishing between cup of tea and cappuccino, how did you get to, actually being creative again? What was the first sort of dip of, creativity that you can know?

Thiago: So, 

Radim: 

Thiago: in the beginning here, took me, I think in the first year I had this girl, then I was a Brazilian girl, was in doing a post-graduation here. I, I always been really good with computers, installing softwares, the loading parts, softwares and all that kind of things. So I always been really good on that.

And back in Brazil at that time, no one could pay a software. Even the studios didn't pay any software. It was all pirate things. so I start helping her 'cause she was, a fine arts post-graduation. but she wanted do some things animated on her. So I help her because, the technician they have on the university was really.

really bad. So she used to take me to the university, help her help on the computer, and she introduced me to a couple other Brazilian. Then I used to help them. wasn't of course the [00:23:00] creative I wanna be, but was the opportunity to be back and touching, like after effects again and doing these things until my English got better.

So that took me another year, just helping people like this until in that time, like nowadays people say it's hard to find work, but you can, it's so easy in the same time, because you have so many. places to look for LinkedIn, all that kind of thing. But in that time we didn't have any websites or anything like that.

and also I couldn't afford anything, so I used to remember the, how I landed my first job, I used to go in Victoria Station and they used to have WH Smith that, and they used to have this called broadcast newspaper. I used to go, I think it was weekly or monthly, but it used to cost, I dunno, six pound or I don't remember how much, but it was a lot of money for me.

I was more than I make an hour, but I used to go in, in the back. They have this session for [00:24:00] work. So I used to go every time and check until one day had for a junior animator, a designer. And I said, well, I have three years and a half experience. I'm not a junior. My English is pretty shit.

but my work's gonna speak better than me. I gonna apply for that job and I apply. And, they invite me for interview. First talk on the phone is the hardest thing. When you learn in the English, or any language, you can speak with people face to face. You can pretend you talk, or you understand.

But on the phone it's no protection, or you understand or not. So I was really nervous. I managed to get through, I want to a quiet room, managed to talk on the phone, get interview on the interview. Had a, this guy called Ralph, was Australian dude, similar, style. We really connect.

He was the head of the department and the other guy was a English guy, was a dick, the guy I remember. And he's still a dick. And he really didn't like me, but Ralph really liked my [00:25:00] work. And, so he brought me to the department, they gave me the job. And, Man, I remember today when you learning the language is draw all your energy when you in your environment and speak the language, you really need to concentrate and force yourself to understand what they talk.

 but I remember in the meetings, no one gonna ask me any question, I'm just a junior. So I tried, forced to understand the basic, and any job came in my direction came as a brief. I could go on the internet and check things. So was my first job I landed. I'm really grateful for that and I spent the first two years work with them.

Radim: So tell me more about Ralph, because Ralph clearly has changed. Ralph clearly has changed his sort of trajectory of your career. I liked how you talked about the fact that you used internet, a way of understanding the briefs and being thrown into this department. So tell me about his influence and what was the studio that actually you worked in?

Thiago: Yeah,[00:26:00] the place he used to call ETV was a production house. They used to do a lot of live show. they used to do a few things, like for brands like Thomas Cook and brands like that they used to do. From graphics to live action, but also they used to, in that time, I'm talking about probably 2004, 2005 maybe.

they used to have, I think UK was a massive then, they have the live show you call and you bet money on that kind of things. So they used to be the main production house, did that kind of thing, was a kind of a shit job, but was a really nice opportunity to do eye dance and do like stings similar to broadcast but in a different way.

And, so it was really nice. Wasn't the kind of creative job. I like it, but was a really good introduction to start work. And Ralph was still a big part. We're still friends. and Ralph always was kind of a older brother for me, that he look [00:27:00] after me. Ralph was like, man, a beast. he came from Australia.

He used to be a professional cyclist and move here and and learn 3D here and change from being a model and professional cyclist to be a 3D. And, so he really, we connect really well. So we used to do a lot of things like, I always loved sports and gym and things, and Ralph was fetus like a fucker, like he was a beast.

So we used to eat, cook our own food on the George Foreman Grill. we used to eat really healthy for me and him. We used to psych, we did London to Bri. Ralph used to surf, so he got into kite surf and took me away. Him, I kite surf about five years with him. We used to go almost every weekend kite surf.

So it was a big, part of, that transition from arriving in London, working on Bars and restaurant and moved to my industry. And then Ralph, after I opened the studio, Ralph worked with me as a freelance as well. So it's really nice transformation. where you [00:28:00] had,

Radim: Well Thiago, I have to say, I've recorded many hours of this podcast and no one has mentioned George Foreman Grill yet.

That is the best soundbite at George Foreman Grill. I mean, I 

Thiago: died? No. 

Radim: extra points for that one. so I mean, I'm glad I asked about Ralph because he played quite a pivotal role in obviously like making sure that new environment actually worked for you and actually you felt at home. So you mentioned, and you answered that also, you then started your own studio and Ralph was working for you.

So what was the sort of inception of, obviously you working for ETV doing things, so that's more or less served you as a sandbox. But you mentioned it was not the type of work I wanted to do, but I did work anyway. So what is the sort of artistic longing or artistic expression like 'cause.

We now know that obviously you're coming in from Sao Paulo, there's the Japanese influence, there's cartoons, there's all of this sort of expressive stuff, and you are working on a and, what do you call them? Astons for, a gaming show. [00:29:00] So, which obviously doesn't add up just yet.

So how do we get from this to what is now Cookie Studio?

Thiago: So, I always knew what I wanna do, I always been really focused and, when I move here. I knew that begin, was a transition for me to get back and work, to be on the creative industry again. So everything I did, I'm not gonna say I did with a go, but I did with, internally.

I knew I wanna work, I wanna get back on the industry. I need to go through this is a period for me, this is a, just a phase that I'm going through. and ETV was a big part because it was the first time I managed to develop, learn the language as well. as I said, I've, that was my third full-time.

Job I had, and I don't think I work well with a full-time job, because I get involved in the politician. I always had this leadership and business mentality. Then when I see things not working properly, it got me really annoying. So on the A TVI went to speak with the [00:30:00] owner and talk about things I thought was wrong on the company.

That was a mistake I did on the, all the job I had in Brazil as well. So normally no one hired me again on the companies because I said to too many truths, let's say like that. So, but I met another person. Really important of my career was, Matt San, still a really good friend of mine. I call him as my godfather in uk.

Matt, is a bit older than me, but he's been in the industry longer than me and he was like, fucking amazing work, 2D after effects. So he's doing a lot of film stuff nowadays. And Matt was a freelance, was one of my first contact with freelance, then came to work with us. So I was fed up with the work and I wanna go freelance.

So I start, connect to people and I manage to get one gig with, another guy called Chris. And I was to do a music video. So I used to do on the weekends. And, and the people really love work with me. I always been really fun, and whatever you throw [00:31:00] on my direction, even if I don't know how to do, I used to go home, do tutorials, figure out, come next day.

Deal with that shit. And that's how I always did. So I did really well going freelance and Matt start introduced me to place in that time he used to have, he still have these recruitment agencies that put in place. Matt put me like in Cartoon Network, places like that, Nickelodeon. So, and everyone start loving work with me.

So I start freelance and I freelance I think for about seven years, and I had this friend, he used to have a studio in this kind of warehouse old building that they transform everything like, low cost artist studio. And I went in the pub once with him and he introduced me another friend, David Ku.

David is amazing artist. our director and, we met and he was looking for a place and my friend said, oh, there is a place just in front of us. There is a unit free. and, we said, oh, okay, let's rank [00:32:00] that. So we ranked, but not really think about business or anything, and just ranked because I was fed up to work from home.

I'm like a, I need to see people, I need to go out, meet people and everything. And, we rent and we there. I talked to David and then I said, so what we doing? we are gonna just have a space as a studio and each one does your freelance or should we start something?

And he said, ah. So we start, we decide to start, we did the whole branding. We're supposed to call lo Los MUTOs means, the death. But there we did the whole brand identity website and everything we understand is my name is Tiago, his name is David pku is a Spanish. We gonna call us Muto.

 How are we gonna explain the email or the Euro l to a British person? We're gonna need to spell the whole thing out. Even my name, I need to spell. So I said, we're not gonna get any work. So we forgot about that and we rebrand. We thought we want a short name. So it start as cake. [00:33:00] We used to call Cake Studio.

and then we start, I had a lot of contacts on broadcasts and so we start getting work when we get the jobs. I used to tell them, oh, we work as a studio. Now they are, but we not hiring in studio. Said, listen, you can pay us the same. We are gonna do the job in half the time because we two now and, and, we get the same money as you paying one freelance.

So we start working more like this with the contacts I had until we had enough work we could build a shore real without using any one's work, and then we start selling ourself and start getting a little bit more work.

Radim: I love it. I love how this is all snowballing and what I really like about what you said earlier is that I didn't know how to do these things. So I went home and I sort of Googled it and I worked it out. That's the magician, right? That's pretty much like the beautiful part of being a designer at that time.

It's 'cause so many jobs, so many commissions, so many projects were created by people who said yes to something that had no idea what I saying yes to. I [00:34:00] need to start, I need to go home and like, how do I do this? How do I do that? love it. Absolutely love it. So I'm loving the get go.

 I'm loving your go get attitude in a way of this is a one way direction. This is where things are going, things are heading in and cake became cookie at some point,

Thiago: Yeah.

Yeah. David decide to move back to Barcelona, 2000. Just before, I think we opened Cake 2010. So I think after two years he decided to move back and, we really trying to have the studio in both places. So we rented, a couple desks on, our friends called Divisor in Barcelona, but in the end it didn't really work.

Spain didn't have much work to do, and so all the work came from here, so turns to be a little bit more difficult, to manage between me and him, two business owning a different countries, not having two business. So David decides, we decide to split. I kept the studio and he went freelance, but it's a new phase in my life, so it's no [00:35:00] was a good opportunity.

I kind of used that as, always been really good in marketing, so I used that as opportunity to rebrand the studio. Also opportunity to reconnect to all the clients, because it was a new name and everything. It's always trying to find leverage, a new opportunity, why I'm contacting the client.

Just not for asking, just work, So there I rebranded the studio as cookie and start everything, not start from the beginning, but kept what we had, redid the website, the logo and the brand, and uh, start approaching clients again.

Radim: I think what you said was really helpful to anyone who's listening to this. especially in the time of a lead generation and a specialist and all sorts of people hovering some sort of weird tag that sends in millions of emails an hour to call prospects, reconnected to existing network is what really makes your business grow, 

What make you, kind of weather the changes and actually going back to people you already know and you [00:36:00] established the connection with is, it's invaluable because that it's gonna be age your question with people like, how did you get work? Well, now we've got a lot more people out there doing the sort of the woo boo magic stuff, oh, pay us a thousand pounds a month, whatever, and we'll get you, we'll send you, we'll send a cold email to 5,000 people and you will get two phone calls.

You're like, well, that's fucking stupid, isn't it? I mean, why? Because you ultimately, what you want to really want to do is to work with people that you know, or people like you, you admire and you actually create this sort of like a sort of relationship with, rather than be anything to anyone.

Because I think we can now afford to be the right things, the right people. So, I'm liking that cake got slimmer, became a cookie. You are reconnected with your, contacts and you're working.

Obviously you go to sort of the fresh piece of life. So. It takes you almost all the way up till now where you've established with your studio your, the roster of your clients is incredible, the work is looking great. There's self initiated projects that obviously are transcending your studio [00:37:00] as well.

But the way I got to know you is obviously on the speaking circuit where you very much open up about the other side of being a creative,it's so far, even though that you've talked about quite a few bumps in the road, things, some obstacles and sort of things that you need to sort of overcome.

It's kind of like a one-way street, like it's taking you forward. But you quite openly talk on stage about the things that were pretty much a setback. things that. After years of pushing and working and creating, we're like, you know what? I don't feel what I do anymore.

I feel like this is not exactly,the right thing. I don't get the satisfaction anymore. And I think it felt like you were quite spent by everything because by the time you've been doing all of this, you got married, you had a child,you built a studio.

Everything's looking kind of great on paper on the outside, but on the inside it's not. and I'm sorry that we've gone from a happy cookie everything to bring it now to the real side. But I admire honesty as I'm someone who very [00:38:00] much I live and brief the honesty. I mean, this is why we are having this conversation, why I publish my books.

And it's always nice to hear a sort of another voice on the circuit in the industry to say. the stuff that you feel really sad about in your privacy about yourself, and you feel alone, you're not alone, obviously. You very much, do that as a, as another voice and do that.

So how do you get to realization that what you do doesn't feel quite right anymore?

Thiago: Yeah, man, that day is, uh,I call the dark times, in my life. I would love to say, I realize in a nice way. I just, I would love to say suddenly I realized I wasn't happy, but it wasn't like that I was hit by a war. something I never believed is, depression. I had a massive, mental breakdown.

2021 was the best year of the studio pandemic was, I know it's not great for a lot reasons, but pandemic for me was amazing. the studio was amazing. I was [00:39:00] traveling even, I spent time in Brazil, spent time in Mexico, but was the app. Then suddenly I got a hit. Then I realized, fuck what I'm doing.

I'm not happy, and that hits me not even to think I wasn't happy going in a way. Then I stopped function. I didn't have energy to, you know, leave the sofa. I wanna watch TV the whole day. I have the team to run. I need, run the studio as many as possible. 'cause the studio was running well, I need direct the project, but you know, I need be a call here or there.

But part of that I was like, man, complete facts. And that was a hard time for me to, I'm still trying pick the pieces and glue them together. It's still in a process. Then, it's been, what, about three years? This process then, almost cost my studio, cost my marriage, And, I'm being divorced since last year.

[00:40:00] and I said in the talks, in the lectures, I do, I didn't even give a fuck. I was in a situation then. Didn't, I was like in autopilot, in automatic, and I didn't even think I was just going to try and survive. and it hit me really badly. And that's why I love sharing that story, and I'm going through because I realize there's being like a eighties kids, I realized we grow up like swallowing that shit.

boys don't cry, you just move on. The only way to go is pushing through, And so I never really spoke up. I didn't even have a vocabulary to talk to people about what I'm feeling until I met. A friend and he said, man, why you don't talk? if you want, I recommend you to my therapist.

And I used to hate the word therapist because my ex-wife used to, you need to do therapy, you need to do therapy, you need to do therapy. And I said, fuck, I don't need to do therapy. I know my problems. I need just focus and keep going. And that's not reality. And I think most of the eighties, [00:41:00] people now is doing all the therapy, is the therapy, time but I start opening to people and I remember clear, this friend Ellio I went then, we weren't like, he's not my best friend, he's someone that didn't talk much and live in the same build.

I used to live. And I said, I'm gonna do as everyone say, because first no one give a fuck about your problem. Second. The rest is happy than you, worse than that. So I said, I just gonna go move through and say, man, my life is great, you know, all good,but as you said, you are honest person.

I'm like that. Well, I can't bullshit if I don't like someone, I need to go to that person and say, I don't like you, man. And I said, you know what, I'm not like that. I'm gonna say, man, I've been through a shit hole. Now I'm in a shit hole. I've been going through a lot difficult things. And suddenly opening a little bit with him, he said, man, I'm going through things as well, and we start sharing.

 And he introduced me to his therapy and that gave me [00:42:00] the light in the end of the tunnel and said, whoa, maybe I need to talk to more people. And I start opening with a couple friends. Not everyone was, willing to, listen to you or had the maturity to talk to you about, but I got surprised by friends.

I wouldn't expect them. then to accept or to give me, to listen. 'cause sometime what the only thing we need is to listen. That's why I learned about therapy. I used to be against, but I realized therapy, we living in a kind of a buzzy world, a really a lot white noise around then. We don't spend one hour of our life to concentrate and thinking about what is going wrong.

And going to therapy forced me to pay someone to talk for one hour and make to listen to myself for one hour what I'm talking about. And that make me reflect through the week what I said about. And that opened completely different perspective to think about [00:43:00] therapy. So that was a big change on my life for me.

Radim: would you describe in their sort of the eighties attitude. It's actually still prevalent in some of the places around the world. I mean, even whatever you think, how developed some countries are, it's about the emotional intelligence of the sort of micro society at large. Of actually how do we influence other people about, being actually able to open and being able to listen because you said, you didn't feel like you can speak with some people you didn't like, some people were actually surprising you that you can speak to them.

'cause I think there's this great quote who said that says, when you try to solve someone else's problem, your problem becomes much smaller in return obviously you open yourself up to other stories and other problems and other situations that you might not necessarily think, from your own perspective.

And when you think about our creative process, it's ultimately very selfish process because we want to do our work as best as we can. We emotionally spend ourselves so much on this and then. [00:44:00] Mostly because we've invested so much time and energy into this that we don't always have that emotional, capacity, that empathy for others.

And this is why we often build up this sort of, this residue of energy that's badly spent that can bubble up in form of a burnout. as you said, like you feel like you hit the wall, you had no, no energy. And I think it sounded like it's an extreme version of I just needed some rest.

I needed some time away from this. All because you've been working for about 16, 17 years by then. And it's that's a buildup. That's a lot. And there's a lot of chat when you speak to people about Sagmeister's sabbaticals, you're like, oh, I wish I could do this.

I mean, only he could do it. Oh, even Sist didn't think he could do sabbatical or even the first two. was he blacked it? he made it work, but he had that genius idea of actually taking some time out by actually doing things that can take you off that humpster wheel that you're on and on and on and on and on.

 Because it's so easy to get stuck just [00:45:00] to do the same thing over and over again. And I, you haven't got, if you haven't got a pro clear strategy and I mean it didn't sound like you didn't enjoy the work you were doing at first, like there, there was the stuff that you enjoy doing, but that could be also the demystifier because people think Hey, do what you love and you will never have a breakdown.

I was like,

Thiago: Yeah,

Radim: fuck.

Yeah. So I wanted to ask you, 'cause you mentioned what the happy word quite a few times. How do you define happiness? How do you define that feeling that you didn't have?

Thiago: I think that's a really good question, man. I think, thinking what I went through and I'm going through, to define happiness, I think happiness for me is having freedom. I think happiness. It is having freedom and I think running the business, a lot of people confuse that, especially like the young generation.

They say, oh, I'm gonna open a studio. That's the reason I open, I'm gonna direct my own work. I'm gonna do the things I love. Yeah. [00:46:00] But once you are business, you have built to pay, you have stuff, and, you need, or you have a few partners, then take off everything else. Or you need to run out of everything and come from a place, then I didn't understand any of them.

I need to learn on the go. I think that really burns me out, And, I didn't have the freedom to create what I wanted. my marriage didn't give me the freedom at some point than, as. I want to be, I'm not saying freedom to be a couple, but not being a couple, but it's the freedom as a person and in the relationship, the freedom to be the father I wanted to be.

So I start being really unhappy because I felt trapped in the loop of relationship work, parenthood all the things. Then none of them was making me happy. they, but I think what was, I felt trapped. I felt a bird inside a small cage that couldn't [00:47:00] fly. And that really hard for me and make me really unhappy, 

I think that's what is happiness for me, is to have the freedom to really, in every aspect, nowadays. I am the dad. I wanted to be with my daughter, and makes me super happy. Who knows me, knows how much I spend time with my daughter and how much I like doing crafts sports with her.

And she's eight years old, the work, I'm still struggling to get back. I still having ups and downs. I was hit by not just all this mental breakdown, but we being hit by the industry being really bad, than the last couple, two years. if the industry was good, probably would be easier.

But I think that's all part of the lesson that I needed to learn, and I need to learn hard. 'cause all my life I, as I told you, I focus on something, I push [00:48:00] through and I get what I wanted, and I'm a person then. Therapy made me to understand I'm a person. Then I create goals, but I create a list and I go and tick, and I tick every single goal I put on my list, but I don't enjoy the process.

I lost them through disease. As in a relationship, a parenthood or I work. I lost the enjoyment of the process. And there I feel I lost the happiness,

there's a slide. Reminiscence of the eighties when you said I needed to learn, I need to learn hard. We tell ourselves that we need to learn hard, but we really shouldn't need to learn hard. We really shouldn't need to learn hard. I mean, it, obviously life happens to us, but it's like how we process stories and how we process narratives, influences how we see things forward.

Radim: So, I mean, I very much understand your story. My story is very similar in a way that, the lack of [00:49:00] freedom, which we beautifully explained, is I was like a birth in, occasionally could on fly because I was one upon a time studio owner. We had staff, we had work, we had everything.

Everything was going great. I thought I was buying my freedom by employing more people.

Thiago: Yeah.

Radim: I've ended up with the opposite. I was like, thinking about the definition of my happiness. 'cause I used the similar words, like I wasn't happy. I was stretched, I was far too stretched. We had a second child, around the time Pandemic was great for us, for books and for work and all that stuff.

But, oh my God, like the body just didn't have the energy and the space to metabolize everything. And I think it's beautiful sort of poetic proposition of I'm gonna have a studio. Well go and have a go and have a chat with 3, 5, 7 studio founders or people who run big studios, 

 have a coffee with them. Listen to them for 20 minutes at least, and you'll be absolutely put off for the next five years to run a [00:50:00] studio. Because it's hard, isn't it?

Thiago: It is.

Radim: The reliance on cash flow, reliance on projects, obviously you have to look after people's mortgages, national insurance, all of that stuff like that takes a lot out of you. And because you get into this industry because you wanna create good stuff, that freedom isn't there anymore.

Thiago: Yeah. I think the young people or when we were young as well. We don't realize that, but I think, You kind of lose the freedom, you lose. And and I think in the past, people used to have that goal. I wanna have this studio. That means, it is a big thing.

But I see a lot of friends of my, then is a single, person then, to their own work, to the artistic work, do the paperwork. And I say, fuck that is freedom for me to look. Of course they struggle as well, there is struggle everywhere. But it's like you said, hiring more people, you think, oh, I'm gonna hire someone to do this.

But it means you need managing more people. You needed to delegate more people, because the studio doesn't run without you [00:51:00] and people don't really realize the more people you have, the more you need to stretch yourself, in the areas as well.

Radim: Very true. Very true. And I think there is no shame in actually scaling back because I think there's a lot of liberation and actually freedom to express yourself and say Hey, actually we used to have a lot of people in the studio. Now it's just me. And guess what, I'm actually enjoying the work a lot more because you don't have to fill up your cognitive space with so many extra worries and so many other people's stories and so many sort of expectations of people's sort of skills development and sort of career projections and that kind of stuff.

You can actually focus on what you can create because that ultimately takes you very much to the beginning when you really wanted to do this stuff. I guess we all have to go for the messy middle to, so, we need to learn. I mean, do we need to learn hard as a question, but it gives us the experience to actually understand.

maybe the definition of happiness is a freedom and not needing to [00:52:00] go back to the difficult times. Actually happiness is knowing what the peace and calm can look like. You know how we can actually do all of this stuff. in one of your lectures you mentioned that you dunno what you're doing and you don't have a particular purpose in your creativity, but you speak so fondly about your daughter.

You speak so fondly about the future generations and how we could do not actually how we could do, how we should do better for the future generations. And I thought at that time when I was listening to your talk, I was like, your dors is your purpose. this is where you really project your energy, like how you do stuff and how you sort of drive yourself.

Especially after you know this really sort of dark time, you got that guiding line that takes you out of this. And when you said, I've got no purpose. I'm like, when I speak to him, I'll tell him he's got a purpose.

Thiago: thank you. No, that's me a lot, man, because it's something, I think as any business owner, we always get like a business consulting, to help us. And everyone tends to be that kind of trendy [00:53:00] there. You need to have your why, you need to find your why, where are you going, And I said, and I realized, I said, you know what? You don't, you can just sit there and drive and enjoy the ride, And I think forcing myself to have, where do I want to take the studio, where, what is my end goal and everything. I think that took out of the pleasure of the ride of the, to, that pressure constantly.

What is your purpose? where I wanna take this to? And not man, sometime we just wanna enjoy that, we just wanna drive and enjoy. And across and see where that take us. And I think that's the beauty nowadays, like you said, scaling down and have more freedom. I think that's the beauty, the scaling down because it has less on your shoulder than can give you, more time to think and to change the direction you wanna do.

And you can go as that fits to you as well. And I think that's really important for people realize because,it's [00:54:00] great if you have a goal and that's why you wanna do it. That's why I did my whole life until, I hit that wall and I said, fuck what I'm doing now. But it is for me.

Radim: It's nice to hear you saying, 'cause my daughter is the one that inspire me to work, to be a better person and also to be a better parent, I think we are all very thankful for Simon Sinek to very much, spelling it out to us like, start with y. Dude, I've been working for 16, 17 years by then. I didn't know my why at all.

Thiago: Yeah.

Radim: It was like we, as you said, we were just driving, we're coasting. We were sort of wherever, like it's when you go to sort of stream of a river, it's just it just takes you, wherever it takes you and you go with the flow and realize we could have got somewhere much quicker and further, and potentially easier.

But that journey of getting lost, is ne never gonna be always comfortable and easy, but actually you're gonna discover things you would've otherwise not found. Because, I mean, there are so many conflicting messages that, as you say, there's so much noise out there. There's so many things that sort of can absolutely [00:55:00] confuse, especially young and un inexperienced mind.

But. What you have done, what other peoples have done, especially in the past, if like they went with their, north star inside them going, oh, this is the type of work I wanna do. This is what I wanna do. The word niching wasn't really used by more than one person somewhere on the other side of the world.

We didn't care about this because you, we would find yourself in a natural niche about the work that you want to do. Because again, the work that you do now and what you produce very much always makes me now think about you, being influenced by Japanese culture, calling yourself a magician and kind of doing this sort of stuff.

That it's there. And I think you would never sort of put that in a business plan. Go and thought, okay, Thiago, right, how are we gonna get these, Japanese anime cartoons? How are we gonna get that in your work? We're like, how long have you got? Because you'll spend years doing this. Whereas it comes out naturally and I think this is something.

That, the purpose of us older creative is like, how do [00:56:00] we potentially explain it to our children and give them that open canvas, that free sort of free space and go, you don't have to be anyone for long time. Just as long as you enjoy yourself. get lost in everything. Try everything, taste everything, smudge every color, and see what you find in there.

Because we are losing the innocence. We're making tools which are more plug and play, which are more about, reiteration rather than imagination. And I, I wonder where we go with this. So, as a creative parent, as a fellow creative parent, how do you see your influence potentially in you, obviously in, in the life of your young, know young mind and that you've got, and yeah, what do you see the future and no pressure on this one.

Thiago: to be honest, I think this is, something nowadays on my life and the situation I am, I think, is. It's a big point on my life. Then help me to see a little bit the light in the end of the tunnel. I think my daughter teach me more than I teach [00:57:00] her in every day as a human being, 

not as a even a creative sometime. And, my daughter is really hands-on, draws every day, writes book and, she writes mini books. Now we start, we start doing stop motion. This week we are doing a little mini film, so I'm giving her, I think my place is to give her the tools and the guide and let she experiment what she can.

When I look back, how I grow up, you ask, in the beginning, I had that freedom, maybe less guidance. Because my mom, the way she was, and I think I would love to have more guidance, like kind of a mentor than could, ah, you can do this, and giving me the tools to do so. I think I see myself in her life now as not as a mentor, but as someone then guide her and give the tools, but let her as a free, try and experiment with different approach.

If she wanna do drawing, let's do a drawing. [00:58:00] If she want to call her in, if she wanna, what We were in Paradi and, I run the workshop with Tina. We did, no pixel allowed, so was no cameras, no digital life. We took everyone's phone, but we had this, disposable camera so people can, could capture for, we create the making of, and we have few.

RA left and I brought couple back and I gave to my daughter one and I said, this is a camera. And she, okay, where do I see? No. I said, you see this little cube, you look there. That's a prediction. What you're gonna see, 'cause it's not a proper, it's possible camera. And I said, but you really need to think what you wanna capture because we have 24 films here and cost money to develop the film after.

And if you ruin all of them, we just waste money. So what I'm giving you there is not the phone you're taking and go and take pic, how many pictures you want. You really need to look, you need to think what you [00:59:00] wanna capture and you need to start understanding. I said, we have two cameras, you're gonna do one.

We are gonna develop the film and we're gonna see why you did right and wrong. And we are gonna try apply on the second one. So I think as my place nowadays. Is to guide and give the tools. Then I think I didn't have on that time, but let her to explore as much as she want. Because as you said, she keep telling me, I wanna be an actress, but I wanna, draw or I wanna write books.

I said, listen, you don't need to decide anything now. Now you need to be a kid. You need to enjoy what you're doing. Okay? And I'm here to give you the tools to try different things and discover really what you want. And I said, even don't force yourself when you go to university because you still too young to really understand why you wanna do.

Because some people maybe, discover what they wanna do when they 40 years old or some people never discover as well. So I think as a [01:00:00] parent that the biggest thing for me is to have a open mind. Give the tool to her and guide her through, and is the beauty to see they discover and get excited about things, and let they fucked up as well.

we all fucked up in life, I think as a parent you wanna fucked up your kids as least as possible and less than your parents fuck you up, So I think that's with the mentality I'm going through with my kid nowadays.

Radim: I mean, it's a beautiful answer. 'cause when you see the tools in the little hands, how they, how we've got a perception, expectation of using a camera like this, or a digital camera, a Polaroid camera, whatever. Like you wanna kind of, you almost wants to establish what is the right amount of guidance and what is the perfect amount for them, for discovery.

Like they, they grow in the pathways in a way that you can tell them how to do it, but ultimately, as children now they will do it them their way anyway. And they are sort of [01:01:00] that scarcity of the proative with the photography. like you've got 24 photos, we've got 24 frames.

Thiago: You have to really make a plan because Brianna used to take oh, can you take a photo of us? Yeah, he's seven. Which one would you want to take? Yeah.

Radim: it's like the innocence versus patience versus planning versus thinking, like we, we grew up in different times and it's interesting that you said, I wish maybe I had more, I wish, maybe I had more guidance and maybe I, I wish I was this and that for the past, but.

You can't change it. We accept it. And all we can do is like how we used to produce this chapter with our children and live with our creativity and how we influence the world that we wish to have. So I am, I'm truly excited about, what you're creating,how you getting through, the times that, that were, the cloudiest period and the stormiest period of our life.

But I salute you for being an open voice, being a genuine voice and honest voice about experiences because it makes difference in people's lives. it shows into your work, it shows [01:02:00] well in your work and pushes you in your direction and we need more people like you. So thank you for today and thank you for talking to me.

Thiago: Yeah, thanks so much, man. being amazing. And it's also, it's great to see the way you drive this conversation because you really put some points to me, like the purpose thing. I think, it's nice. I think we forget is something I always say, we need to be more kind to each other because sometime we forget to compliment people or to say our perspective on the people and sometime it is just a word and change that person's day or like even the career.

So thanks so much for your time, man.

Radim: You're most welcome. Thank you.

Thank you for listening to this episode of Daring Creativity Podcast I'd love to know your thoughts questions and suggestions So please get in touch via the email in the show notes or [01:03:00] social channels This episode was produced and presented by me Rad Malid The audio production was done by Neil Mackay from 7 million Bucks Podcast Thank you and I hope to see you on the next episode

Radim: