In this compelling episode of the Daring Creativity Podcast, Aporva Baxi, co-founder of the renowned global brand agency DixonBaxi, shares the remarkable 24-year journey of building a principle-based creative business alongside his partner Simon Dixon. The conversation explores their unconventional approach to client relationships, starting with conversations rather than portfolios, and their commitment to creating brands that compete with the future, not just each other.

Aporva reflects on the cultural landscape of the mid-90s that shaped their creative DNA, from the music of Underworld and The Prodigy to their formative years working on the launch of PlayStation. He discusses the evolution from the "work hard, live hard" culture of the 90s to today's more empathetic approach to team leadership, including their innovative SuperFutures program and the upcoming week-long creative festival for their 55-person, 18-nationality team.

The conversation delves deep into the concept of bravery in creativity, challenging the industry's tendency to talk about being brave rather than simply doing exceptional work. Aporva advocates for trusting instinct over following trends, the importance of making as an antidote to imposter syndrome, and the necessity of disrupting your own creative recipes to avoid complacency.

Key Takeaways

• Making conquers overthinking - The cure for imposter syndrome is constant creation, not endless deliberation or waiting for perfect conditions
• Principles over portfolios - Starting client relationships with conversations about values and vision rather than showcasing past work creates deeper partnerships
• Bravery is commitment, not declaration - True creative courage lies in consistently pushing forward rather than talking about being brave
• Design for life - Consider both personal fulfillment and the millions of people who will interact with your creative work
• Disrupt your own recipes - Even successful processes need regular questioning to prevent creative stagnation and maintain relevance
• The space between matters - The most powerful creativity often happens in the collaboration space between different perspectives and approaches
• Cultural immersion drives innovation - Understanding audience ethnography deeply leads to more authentic and impactful brand expressions
• Convenience is creativity's enemy - Easy shortcuts and preset solutions flatten distinctiveness and reduce meaningful impact
• Investment in team development pays dividends - Creating space for experimentation and growth energizes the entire creative culture
• Relevance requires constant evolution - Staying current while maintaining your unique voice demands ongoing self-reflection and adaptation
• Generous leadership elevates the industry - Sharing knowledge and creating opportunities for others strengthens the entire creative community

Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic

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Aporva Baxi: [00:00:00] Yeah. look, it's been a long journey, as I said, you know, from the school of hard knots to a certain way of working and to, have self-reflection. I think, maybe creatives have the opportunity to. Introspect and maybe not introspect too much, but certainly for us, we've very much thought about ourselves as individuals and about the company.

 it's that idea of design for life. So we're spending as much time designing the business as we are designing the work or the space for the team to feel excited. and certainly over the last decade, we spent a lot of time, thinking about how to be better ourselves as leaders, how to foster a healthier environment.

one that's empathetic, to build a team blend that has people from, you know, we have [00:01:00] 55 people, we have 18 nationalities. 

Welcome to the Daring Creativity Podcast, a show about daring to forever explore creativity that isn't about chasing shiny perfection. It's about showing up with all your doubts and imperfections and making them count. It's about becoming more of who you already are. My name is Radim Malinic. I'm a designer, author, and eternally curious human being.

I am talking to a broad range of guests who share their stories of small actions that sparked lifetime discoveries, taking one step towards the thing that made them feel most alive. 

Let me begin this episode with a question. Are you ready to discover what happens when you dare to create?

 Today I am speaking with Aporva Baxi He's the co-founder and ECD of the [00:02:00] Global Brand Agency, Dixon Baxi, where they focus on the power of creativity, fostering collaboration, and challenging convention to develop brands In our free flowing conversation, Aporva explores the Dixon Baxi unconventional approach to client relationships.

Where they start with conversations rather than showing portfolios and their commitment to creating brands that compete with the future, not just each other. We also delve deeper into the concept of bravery, creativity. Challenging the industry's tendency to talk about being brave rather than simply doing exceptional work.

He also advocated for trusting instinct over following trends and the necessity of disrupting your own creative recipes To avoid complacency, it's my pleasure to introduce a Aporva Baxi. 

Radim Malinic: How you doing?

Aporva Baxi: Great. Very nice to see you ready, and thanks for having me on [00:03:00] this.

Radim Malinic: I've got so many things in my mind when it comes to branding and the state of branding and the general state of the industry and you are one of the people standing at the forefront of this.

and doing it in your own way, which I think we need to talk about because in my opinion, you and Simon and your company fits very much the topic of daring creativity, daring forever.

So, if anyone may have not heard of Dixon Baxi or a Aporva a Baxi, who are you and what do you do? 

Aporva Baxi: Well, thanks for that intro,very kind of you. I, I think we're always on a journey, so I would say it's a continual learning journey, but in terms of me, I'm a Paul Viva co-founder with Simon Dixon of a global brand agency based here in London, working with. large, influential, ambitious businesses all over the world.

we're in our 24th year, so we've been doing this a long time. I was just saying to Simon the other day that, this past February,I've known him for 30 years. So we've had a long, relationship together. certainly, very much rooted in respect for [00:04:00] each other, but also pushing each other forward.

And then in that time we've been able to, grow the business, not necessarily just in scale, but hopefully in influence, in the things that we love doing. we've always had very strong principles from the beginning. I'm sure a lot of people may have heard this, but we did have a list of things that we would do and wouldn't do when we began.

And although that list has evolved and changed, they were root principles. and I think, we really like the idea of a principle base. Business as opposed to one that just has a rule set so it can adapt over time. And we've been working across many eras, so we've seen, the industry change, culture change, music choice change, fashion change.

And so it's amazing thing to be part of that journey. and it still is,very excited to be where we are now. But, even this morning there's a slight, always a slight not an anxiety of where we're gonna go next and what we can do next. I think the idea of settling is, the opposite of what we or the industry should be doing [00:05:00] now.

Radim Malinic: You said you met Simon 30 years ago. You talk about different music choices, you talk about different times. How did you guys meet and how did you actually establish the list of choices?

Like how do you establish your principles?

 that you wanna do this together? 

Aporva Baxi: Amazing. Well, we set the way back clock for, February, 1995. which is 30 years ago, a long time ago, I'd just, graduated and, I went to Middlesex University and I did a visual communications design course, and I was, an intern at a bunch of companies. and actually, we run an intern program here, an intern academy, and everyone's very interested in how you find your way into studios.

And back then, the way I did it was to create, an introduction, a little kind of printed piece, and I hand delivered those to companies that I was very excited about. ones that I felt resonated with me and that led me to,a meeting, a company called Michael [00:06:00] Peters, who was a late, really large company back then.

Probably 150, 200 people focused on annual reports and then that type of thing. And. I did a couple of months there. it wasn't for me to be honest, I've gotta say, I realized that was one of the turning points where I realized that actually that type of approach, that type of design felt too constrained for me.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I needed to feel more expressive. But the reason I go back there was a chat called, Ben Tomlinson, and he was a designer there, and he took me under his wing and said, you should chat to this guy called Simon. I said, okay, that's interesting.

and actually a little side note, funnily enough, 30 years later, we have the Ben's son in the studio this week doing an internship with us. So, it's a small world. and yeah, there's a really nice kind of rhythm to that. But going back to that thing, Simon, Ben introduced me to Simon, and so I, I met him in that early part of 1995.[00:07:00] 

And it was in an interview, I was thinking about joining this, one agency and we ended up talking about everything, from design to film to music and what was supposed to be 20 minutes turned into two hours, and I think we hit it off then. and then, I joined that company and it scaled very quickly.

and we got to work in, New York, San Francisco, Sydney, London, on very large scale projects. So that was, a really formative period. this is 1995 to 2000, so it was brick pop, it was rooted in the first PlayStation. It was,the kind of the music culture.

You've got Apex Twin and boards of Canada and the Prodigy, all of that stuff is phenomenal. So growing up in that time, was certainly exciting. So that was that form of superior.

Radim Malinic: I had to Google the best albums of 1995 and I literally Got goosebumps because I'm just looking at the list and it's just like one of the best years on this planet when you look at [00:08:00] it. Goldie timeless. yeah, you can Maxim Key by tricky. Garbage. Garbage. The great escape. I mean, oh my God. 

Aporva Baxi: yeah, it was a soundtrack to life, and I think, music and design go hand in hand. we have, music playing in the studio all the time to bring some energy and that, we tend to gravitate towards things that are a little bit more fast-paced, electronic.

And I think it's rooted in that time. So when,when I design, if I'm actually creating things, I tend to listen to high tempo music. It was probably because of being rooted in that. and so it was a fascinating time. And so to answer your question, Cy and I worked together for about a year,in the London studio before he went to open, for this company, an office in, New York.

I stayed in London, that, that grew in an early age. I was, a creative director, fairly young age, probably, unskilled to do it, but about 27, do it doing all sorts of things. And then Simon went to, San Francisco. I had an opportunity to go to [00:09:00] Sydney, then New York and so on. So we,we'd never worked in the same studio in that time, but I guess what we had was, a friendly competition.

I, I always saw Simon as a phenomenal designer, and he still is. His craft, his ability to make things, the level of invention, is all fully baked. and we got to do a lot of that. And I would always see, Simon as, a colleague, someone I respect, but always as someone to compete with in a sense, to pull me up.

And we had that respect for each other. So then you fast forward to 2001 when we started Dixon Maxey, that respect was there. And because we'd, seen each other and how we work and how we collaborate with our own teams at that time, we knew that there was something here and s felt that if there was someone that he was gonna work with, it was me and vice versa.

and that was a sliding doors moment, in that I could have stayed in New [00:10:00] York. I had a pretty good time there. I had a pretty good gig. There was this other opportunity of doing something new and I didn't, ne didn't wanna look back and regret that. So the formed Dixon Backie, and we spent the summer going back and forwards figuring out what we would do.

And we,decided a couple of things. One, that we would be, two, we'd go back to being two creatives with direct contact to the clients. So that was an a team. we decided to show no work and it was all conversation. So when we spoke to clients, it wasn't about portfolio, it was about ideas,and principles and the way of working and how brands can exist in the world in a much deeper way.

And how we have to understand the audience, which seem quite commonplace now. But again, back then, you could talk about aesthetics or you could talk about strategy, but the overlap and the bridge of that. Was, very interesting to us. and more than anything, it was about our creative voice, finding our story.

And the reason for [00:11:00] starting with a blank sheet of paper and some principles was to figure out what that was. And,and we've worked really well together. I think one of the things that probably makes us successful is that we, respect each other, listen to each other. We have our own points of view.

And I would say we do things quite differently. but that's okay if there is room to, adapt. And I think that's probably the biggest thing for the company, but for us as individuals, is that we know that there's an opportunity for us to continue to grow and learn and that we are not perfect.

And although we grew up in the school of hard knocks and in a era and culture that is very unlike today in that it was. Work, hard work 24 7 live work was just fused together. and partly because we loved it, but because that was how it was. And I think that trained us to work a certain way. And I think the [00:12:00] thing that we've tried to do and we've always tried to do is adapt to what's happening in the world and, create a space for our teams to enjoy what we do in a different way.

That's appropriate to now. But, I'd say we, we still sit side by side. that's the other thing is that we still sit side by side and we talk every day and, we've gone off and done our own things. we made a feature film, and side directed that, I kind of focused on db, but we always, overlap and I think that's the strength.

We always talk about the space. Between Dixon and Baxley is the space that we want to create, not Dixon and Baxley as individuals, which is hard to articulate when our name's on the door, but it's more of a concept and an idea, that we're interested in.

Radim Malinic: When you mentioned that work culture, that was more embedded in our lives. When you think about it, the life itself was almost 24 7 because 

 one thing was blending into one another. Therefore, maybe we were more happier to go with the fact that you worked [00:13:00] 24 7. 

Aporva Baxi: that's right. one of the core things that we thought about was design for life. You know, so for our lives personally, it's baked into who we are, but also designed for life as in the millions of people out in the world.

And that design has an opportunity to do things that, moves the world forward. You know, there's human progress in that, but I would agree, I think, you know, if I took you back to, 95, 96, you know, we were lucky enough to work on the launch of the first PlayStation one, that's the era of Wipe Out it's Ridge Race Tech in and those types of things.

But we would work, we'd go out and then I would come back after a club, and then go to a studio and then play Wipe Out, designed by actually the Designers Republic, which is a fantastic studio and still, you know, influential today, but that, that felt very natural. I would say, you know, with today's lens, it, it work life or, certainly though the environment in which [00:14:00] we work could have been, more empathetic.

but at the time it just felt like that's what we do. and there was a joy to that. But as I say, you, broke through walls. you broke through any imposter syndrome by making, so we were just constantly making things. And I think that is still a practice for life today, is I think, through making, articulate my ideas through making anything, you know, whether that's a sketch, whether that's a coffee brand, whether that's,creating things for yourself.

it's a way photography, making film, it's a way of expressing what's in here and bringing that to the world, even if it's just for yourself. I think that's a brilliant practice.

Radim Malinic: when you mentioned the cure for imposter syndrome was the making, I'm sure we can both agree that designers doing nothing or having nothing to do as a creative is important because you've got time to hear yourself. However, daydreaming hasn't got anyone anywhere because daydreaming just only lets the sort of negative [00:15:00] thoughts seeps in and go.

Like, I feel a little bit confused here because our purpose, our focus on doing things is what gets us moving. 

And making stuff is, the best antidote to any kind of sort of problem and anxiety because you start with zero and you get to one at some time, but you go, then you go from one to 100, And that sort of gives you something to do. 

Aporva Baxi: even I find it, long into my career where you can either overthink and I think the quiet moments are important. you need to get away from things to see things with new perspective or an objectivity or talk to others, but that's still doing something, and you can't be on all the time.

So the subconscious mind is a valuable mechanism and engine to, to solve things. But equally,to push through something, as you say, is that, small 60 seconds or two minutes, it's like any habit you wanna form, do one minute, or, do two minutes and it becomes something else.

And I think, it's the blank sheet of paper syndrome or any of those types of things where you [00:16:00] make the first mark. It's not gonna be the perfect sentence or the perfect thing, but you're on the journey. And I find that liberating. And what we try and do is help our team feel like that. So oftentimes we talk about creativity and the journey of making as a feeling.

And so we have, exercises, ways of working an operating system that we've now called super futures as a means to, bake the idea of, feeling liberated and enjoying the pure, sense of making, and the feeling of that without an end result. There's something to get you going and what happens, it opens up the mind, it creates something new.

It allows you to see things differently. And so we really enjoy that and we try and engender that in the team. And it's so exciting seeing it. I get really enthused by. And it fosters a, an energy in the studio that feels [00:17:00] palpable. and we make it very visible so our studio walls have work on, which seems an obvious thing, but I was just talking to some folks, at the DNAD had a panel and we're just comparing notes with other ecds and business owners and so on, and they were like, oh yeah, you know, everything's been figma at the moment or,on a digital board and putting things on the wall has sometimes been forgotten.

And there's a lot of power to that. And that's how we sometimes find unrelated, stories.

Radim Malinic: The way you and Simon talk about your work and your principles, your philosophies is a hundred percent one of the key ingredients. How you see creativity, how you see the process. Because you said it a short while ago that at the beginning you were not sure when any work you were talking about. It was a conversation and you were talking about principles and you said, now it's more of a commonplace.

 I think it was a learning journey. we had, as I said, these principles and the idea of language. Was [00:18:00] essential to how we worked. And the team laugh when I talk about this, but our first project was, 'cause I say it so often, but our first project was for MTV two.

Aporva Baxi: So we landed something pretty cool. And when we worked on that, when we came into the presentation, the original one, we actually took a painting rather than a presentation. And the painting we laid, we took into the MTV studios. You know, we had made this trip to, in Simon's bedroom, actually back in the day.

'cause our studio was too small or it was just a desk at that point. but the painting captured, a feeling and of what it was like to be a 16-year-old in their bed bedroom listening to rock music. That was the root of the channel, MTV too. And. it was an ethnography. It was,us kind of getting inside and understanding what it's like to see the world through the lens of that audience, as opposed to, at that point, I think it was 20, we were 29, 30 being a 30-year-old designer [00:19:00] designing for that.

And of course, you know, we wanted to, bring some style and flair to it, but it led us to somewhere new. And ultimately the actual brand was all language. It was statements that we found of,of the fans from blogs. And Twitter didn't exist there. Phones didn't exist in the way that they do those blogs and forums.

And we took hundreds of statements and credited to the handles, you know, things like MTV makes me wanna smoke Blue Tech. Stuff we couldn't come up with. Right. Just random stuff. but it felt so right. There was an irreverence and a maverick spirit. And the reason I referenced that is that it seemed to, it seemed like us figuring out who we were.

And we enjoyed the fact that, language and, expressing the value of the audience and playing it back in a new way, and, doing things that felt like they have swagger and attitude and didn't round the edges. And I think that [00:20:00] still stands true today. You know, we are lucky enough to work on brands of all sizes.

you know, whether it's a global, giant,in international markets and so on. Or, you know, we're currently working, with,an AI health, business that's helping clinicians transcribe, patient notes or, early prevention of cancer. Very different.

But what we're also trying to find is why they're relevant and valuable to the audience and how they can exist in the world in a distinct way, which again, seems obvious for a brand, but everything can get rounded, you know? and partly because we see everything, right? We see what everyone else is doing, and if that's successful, there's a feeling that should be emulated and you get to this sort of sea of sameness that, you know, that term's been around for some time.

 And so what we are really interested in is trying to find the unique and the original. and that often is a recombination of things that exist in the world, but it's how you [00:21:00] edit those reference points to create a new reference point, a new benchmark that can push the industry forward or create a new conversation.

And that's why, I cite that project, but that's what we continually try and do. Either successfully or not, but that's the ambition.

Radim Malinic: Before we started recording, I told you that my concept of daring creativity is not the things that you're scared to do or things you don't want to do. It's the things you don't want to regret not doing when you talk about a triptych of paintings, that is to me like perfect example of daring to express or dare to try or dare to challenge or dare to think what could surprise people, because you mentioned the word feeling and liberation, like especially with your super futures program and the way you do things.

And I just love that story. I mean it's MTV two is your one of your first projects. You don't have almost any doubts of the fact that you did the Right?

thing because you're challenged to do [00:22:00] something. 

 it comes down to how quickly things germinate in the world. there, there sometimes isn't the opportunity for. Something to grow, and take its time to grow, and maybe because we see everything so immediately it's, a trend and then it's gone.

Aporva Baxi: Whereas maybe there was time for things to grow and that's, you know, studios, they have time to figure themselves out. They're not on display all the time and they figure a voice out. The same with music, maybe, you know, I still think though, there are subcultures and micro niches and so on, but everything gets hyped, to an extreme and it can lose its value and go mainstream much quicker.

Certainly with the social platforms that we have that make things very instant. So there's much more spikes. And there just generally is more of everything. It's like more and,it can prove a [00:23:00] distraction, you know, and distraction then kind of can throw you off your game and throw you into losing while you're doing what you're doing.

 we find that, you know, if you listen to the noise, it can, start to dilute who you are. And it's very important to kind of trust your gut and be centered. And so we spend, think about how we can delete the noise and focus on who we are and what we do. But I think in the same happens in every industry.

Fashion, music there is a very big mainstream, and things can be mechanized or, process driven where it creates a hit supposedly. And, stars rise and fall. It's really interesting going to the edges and you could argue, you know, things like, Spotify and so on have been, not great for the industry, right?

Certainly in terms of re remunerating artists and so on. However, you know, we [00:24:00] oftentimes discover new things because of the rabbit holes that we go down to find music and artists and, you know, I personally, I know friends that then go to their concerts, buy their records and go that way. So, so I think it's a bit of both and we should probably enjoy the optimistic nature of having, you know, all music.

but then I think it's up to us to be, scary or explore so that we don't fall down. a rabbit hole that is, is the mass.

Radim Malinic: the Spotify problem. You can see it from, Spotify in generally like platform problem, we see it as a problem and obviously it's never run by a co-op, 

things like Spotify are very much a capitalist project. Right.

But, when we talk about making money out streaming, when you go back on the stories of in excess Guns N Roses, those bands were broke, like they got rinsed by the same people who aren't rinsing them through Spotify.

Like the music module wasn't [00:25:00] exactly always working, which is now we've got more clarity about like how little it's working in, in a clear view 

 you could ask, argue that off any platform, and I think there is a, an equity that can be baked in and maybe there's a better model of that. I know that, Ben Affleck and Matt Damon have tried to do that with their production company called Artist Equity, which is about giving, a better and more equal share to everyone that participates.

Aporva Baxi: Now, I dunno the ins and outs of that, so don't hold me to how effective that is, but I like the idea, and I think you, you're right, these platforms can, in some senses be good. and in the reasons that you state, you can choose,to, participate and reach out. And I know I've certainly found artists, that I would never have come across.

and that interrelation and we've reached out to some, to collaborate with, but also. To go to their concerts or recommend. And I think that must help the industry. But the thing is, there's just so [00:26:00] much of it. so I think like anything, the same with recycling your plastics and so on, you have to participate in that.

You have to take responsibility. and it really depends how you value that. so I, I think all those are important. there's maybe a love hate with that. On the one hand, it's all these things, you know, whether that's getting the food delivered to, a platform like Netflix or Spotify, you know, those things are conveniences of life they're baked into to the world at the moment.

And it would be amazing if they thought of a different way of doing that. And I think there is. But equally they provide, not only convenience, but they actually. Music and access to music and the democratization of that, does benefit life, you know? And, I think there's still a lot of conversation around that.

Radim Malinic: as you said, we vote with our action,

You know what you buy in the winter, if you buy strawberries in winter,you basically, you're voting for strawberries in winter. if you get that.

takeaway, you know, once a week you vote in for plastic containers, you [00:27:00] like the cascading effect in all of this. we Make choices and then we look back going, oh, you hear people saying, this industry is broken. And I'm like, nothing's perfect. we can agree that we don't have a prime example of going, look at that industry. It's hunky dory. we should copy that 

Aporva Baxi: it feels like there is this need certainly for certain businesses to scale. It's all about scale and then scale equals, new users or, ultimately profit if they can get to that and that can, lose sight of why they're doing it.

So I think, you know, those craft base, businesses or businesses that say, actually, you know, we're gonna limit scale because it dilutes the quality of what we do. I think they're really powerful and they hold onto their truth and their value. And I think, with things like AI and so on, maybe that scaling, is gonna become easier.

But I think there is a tension and push and pull and, when you think about music, have their fan base. And that fan base tends to be very deep and [00:28:00] very rich. and the same for the work that we do. we have an idiosyncrasy that is, is us.

we do have to say true to that, otherwise we will lose our way as well. And in our 24 years, we found that we've had moments again where, when you look back at the archive, everything is smoothed out. It's like you went from this to this. It's very neat and tidy when you do a chronology.

 But in the moment, you know, there are challenges. They're missteps, things don't work. You realize that you've said yes to things that you should have said no to. You said no to things you should have said yes to. and it's not that there we don't have regrets. It's just, that it's a journey and they're missteps and challenges.

And there have been moments in our time when we have had to say, well actually, you know, we're gonna say no to these things. We're gonna, let these clients go. Maybe give them to other agencies so they're not left in the lurch, but we're going somewhere else. This isn't where we think we should be or the quality of work.

Aporva Baxi: isn't where it should [00:29:00] be or the relationships don't feel quite right and that's quite hard to do. but it's really important to do, to be objective and step out and say, well, hang on a minute, you know, why are we doing this? And go back to, the original source, so to speak,and find that way forward

Radim Malinic: you said. 

Aporva Baxi: way.

Radim Malinic: Which I understand from my point of view, like the anatomy of opportunity, because we all go from what is the yes. What's the no does the no turn into a yes or yes into a no. ultimately you have to be daring and you also have to be a bit brave about what you want to do and how you wanna move on that journey with your craft, with your people.

'cause as one of your first essentials, 

Aporva Baxi: you guys saying, brave brands change the world. Whereas I can't scroll on LinkedIn for more than 20 seconds without seeing, Hey, I build brave brands, this brave this, brave that.

Radim Malinic: And I'm like, okay. It's definitely caught on. 

Aporva Baxi: 

Radim Malinic: so how do you define brave? Because I feel like I know you talked about a this germination of the [00:30:00] idea, obviously it's propagated,it's multiplying, it's out there. So there's a lot of brave on paper or brave and pixels.

How do you define brave? How do you do that with brave brands? how does a brave brand exist and are brands really brave? 

Aporva Baxi: Yeah. it's a really good question. I think we've always felt that we actually created a couple of books. Maybe, eight years ago now called Be Brave. and it was, we were reluctant to kind of put a term to something, we felt, we were always, that we had that within us, that we were always pushing businesses and brands to transform and be really distinct and not iterate.

 It's very hard to iterate to invention, you know, and we talk about taking brands and businesses to uncomfortable, and the process gets us to that Goldilocks moment of just right. You know, if you start it safe, the process gets you to boring. And no one wants to be boring. We don't want to create boring things in the world.

 And so the idea of being brave stuck and it's something that, that we've [00:31:00] used, you know, for the last, six or so years. but you're right. Like as with anything, you know, transformation, optimism, you know, bravery, all those terms become. Commonplace and they lose their meaning. they start to just become things that you say, transformation at speed.

All of these things had an origination, and at that point they felt original, maybe, and true and unique. But as with anything, as with a style, someone comes out with something and suddenly it proliferates, it starts to dilute and lose its meaning. So for us, you know, actually we just refreshed our sight a couple of weeks back and we've taken that term off.

We don't use it. Not because, we see it everywhere, but just because the idea of it is very different. And we think it's,it's part feeling. It's part the fact that it's about,creating something that feels, distinct and original for that brand, but it's really setting that brand up for the future.

So [00:32:00] what they're competing with is not each other. They're competing with the future and the future's changing so rapidly. We want to create brands that have the ability to adapt and change. So a lot of the work that we do is not only for today, but we are charting what that brand might do and be like in, in principle based terms, strategically as well as aesthetically and inexperienced for the next five years or more.

 And we can't predict what that future's necessarily gonna be like, but we think that's a form of bravery, is the, fact that they need to acknowledge the speed of change and have the tools and the mindset to do that. And oftentimes the idea of brave brands is really a brave person or a, or an ambitious person or an influential person in the business themselves that is a change maker.

And so. Aligning ourselves with those types of people, is a superpower. and clients then become people [00:33:00] that you align with. And that partnership forges something new and transformative, that, that's kind of more interesting. And ultimately, our client is not the client, it's the audience. You know, if we are creating something for,cancer prevention, we want to know about the clinicians,and real people.

 If it's for, fans of a football club, you know, what's it like in the stands with the ultras at San? So, you know, bravery is actually being honest for them. And, the hard part is the sustaining it. I think, you know, if you think about a Michelin Stard restaurant or anything like that, it's not getting the Michelin star, which is extremely hard.

It's the consistency of sustaining it year on, year out, and nothing. To be honest, the bravery is that it's not just for a term, it's not for a couple of years. It's a constant, need for iteration, invention and that push towards, maintaining who you are [00:34:00] in culture and in lives. And I think that's how we see it, is that it's not any one word.

It's it's a shift from somewhere to somewhere else and then that continual shift. But the bravery is really, the commitment to keep doing it.

Radim Malinic: when we talk about bravery, when you describe it.

 I'm thinking still nostalgically back to 95 or the nineties You wouldn't necessarily think that anyone was being brave putting out their music. People were just curious.

They were following their instincts, their feelings, they were technically creating music for the future, but actually they were creating music at that moment about how they were expressing their current environment, their know their feelings, their, political views, 

And it was more innocent in a way. But when you look back, you're thinking, oh shit, that was quite brave putting all of this together and that this together because it didn't exist. And potentially it could have upset people. In fact, what it did, it actually inspired people to do something exciting because I feel with that term, say be brave. [00:35:00] it's almost misleading because it's like, what am I supposed to do first? I'm happy to be brave, but shit, where do I go first? What do I do? Because whereas when you think about it, brave is that purpose almost personified going. I believe in my course, I'm gonna do this. As you said, you need your change maker on your side.

I'm gonna do this. And by the way, it might be perceived at some, a few years later, some people might say, oh shit, this was brave. How did you do that? You're thinking at that moment, You don't. even think about bravery because you're focused on that next thought. but personally I feel like we talk more about bravery than we being brave these days. 

Aporva Baxi: Agreed. I think it's like anything, it's a sticker, it's a bumper sticker,or it has become, and, with anything, whether it's about the diversity and eclecticism of a team,the voices that are seen in industry, the designs and brands that you might be involved in, it's through action that we see that actually manifests.

So to say it is one thing, but to do it is so much harder. [00:36:00] And it comes down to conviction, that belief in yourself. And, we don't come into the studio and go, you know what? We're gonna be brave today. No, we're just going to do fucking cool work. and we're gonna try and. Feel excited and find the joy in it for ourselves.

And as with music, if you make music for yourself, then other people will find it. And I think that's true of this, you know, true of our industry and what we do. you know, finding that voice is quite hard. but when you've got it, or on that journey, you have to, trust that quiet voice.

You know, the instinct that says, I think it's that way, and those forks in the road open up because you, you trust it. and it may, you may not see where it leads you much like this conversation, I guess. Right? It's open-ended and, but that's super exciting and I think being open to that and not trying to solve your career or the next role, too quickly opens up the opportunity for [00:37:00] you to.

Discover yourself and discover ideas and discover opportunities that may not exist if you've been clearer about your path. and I think that's something to be mindful of. You know, as students come into the industry, as you're moving through your career, obviously the next, you know, title that can be, you know, you can put on LinkedIn and so on is a massive accolade.

And I think, you know, that shows progress. But I think there's something to be said for enjoying the journey, taking the time to participate in different ways and being curious. and it's those things that feel maybe more brave to not rush to the finish line because there, there is no finish line,

Radim Malinic: I think, we've lost the age of innocence. you feel like we, we let the world convince us, and I'm very careful about these words We let the world convince us that if you're not doing something today, you've already missed out.

 because somebody somewhere is doing that already, because. What you [00:38:00] and Simon had. That is a beautiful self-acceptance. 

 This is our principle. This is what we are doing. you could take time to incubate, you can take time to develop, then be public.

you could decide how visible you want to be in that world because you can say as much or as little about yourself as much as you wanted back then. Whereas now, I, and the reason why I said, are we talking about bravery more than we being brave? Because you get some of the studios out there Right.

now, you know, they populated in the LinkedIn pixels with the fact, how they explain what they've created and why they've created it and what they did.

And I'm thinking, well, if this is all you did. How come you need 400 words to tell me that's what you did, because the work should do it, Right. We've homogenized the branding style, like we've homogenized lots of things, lots of decisions I think you can get from zero to one in terms of a new brand or from one to 100 as a rebrand or retooling.

So much easier because just like with the music, you've got the leftism, the maxing keys, you've got [00:39:00] your portis hat. they've gone from zero to one and everyone gone, thank you very much. We're gonna take it from one to 100. But now we've taken it from 100 to a million,

And it's harder to create something, unique and original 

you could argue everything has been made and we edit our cultural references and the things that we absorb and reconstitute them to create something.

Aporva Baxi: New or different. And I think if you put a lens on that, something small, something big, it can be transformative. a small shift can have a big impact. But I agree. I think it's partly generational, that there's probably a generation, I'm always hitting a brick wall when I mention some movies from pre two thousands, and everyone's like, I haven't seen that.

I'm like, no way. How can you have not seen that? So I think there is a,maybe every generation there's like, I'm creating something new because they may not have known what came before. and there is a freshness to that. but I do agree that [00:40:00] there is,it's almost too easy that, at that bottom level to we constitute, there's enough presets almost to create and invent a brand, a way of doing things.

And there's so many. Examples of that. And people have, as you said, articulated how they do that. we spent a lot of time being as open source as possible in sharing how brands are built, why they're built a certain way. But even those codes, can be taken and, you know, o other folks do it. And you start to create a, almost a textbook, a rule book, the how to create brands.

There are mockups that make anything look good. There are, you know, bento boxes that at some point someone originated how to share that work, you know, and it's become something very common. So what happens is that even though a brand may have a distinctness, you put it into that mold and suddenly it flattens it out.

And I find that quite, surprising when [00:41:00] you, if you spend all this time trying to, well, I would imagine create something very new and you put it into a preset shape. Even if it shouldn't fit in that shape, it does. So I think a question to ask is, what would, you've made this brand, what would this brand do?

it wouldn't sit in there. Although it's a good way of sharing work and it's a good way of maybe getting likes and creating that sticky content that everyone's looking for. But I think there's an opportunity to confound that. And that's the thing that I think keeps us up at night or propels us, you know, is the catalyst for us is how we disrupt our own recipes.

You know, whether that's for us at Dixie Maxie or for our community, the industries to ask those pro provocative questions that say, well, where are we going next? And how do we, articulate and create new ways of expressing things that are meaningful and different. And I think, you know, it's, it is a challenge for us and our team, as much as anyone to.

Disrupt our own [00:42:00] recipes. You know, we have ways of creating things. We have a process, and it works to create brands at scale. But that, I don't think that's good enough. You know, you kind of can settle. and, you know, we are always asking ourselves a question of, well, it works. We don't wanna kind of pull a thread on everything, but we need a space to, play and to make things that haven't existed before for ourselves to, not necessarily look at the world, but maybe invent new things so that we feel refueled to find new ways of expressing ideas or brands, or communicating those things.

Radim Malinic: I'm gonna take you one more time back to 1995 because what you just described so beautifully and eloquently reminds me of. And I'm reading your website, it says, design gimmicks. when you think about the music from the nineties, 90 fives and the early two thousands,the albums that used the new gimmicks, like the new presets, the new filters, 

 didn't age well. Whereas you [00:43:00] take 

Dubno bass with my headman, then the Underworld album, that is timeless.

It didn't really try to play into those gimmicks or filters or presets or latest drum machines. It worked with the sounds which are timeless because it was more about a creativity and more about a thing. And when you sort of put it together with the era of mockups, as you just said, and the easy shortcuts ultimately.

 you're thinking that you've saved yourself down on development or research or immersion.

 it will bite you back in the ass because it's not necessarily created with the right substance. Because ultimately what you guys do is that you create brands to, make people feel something. You're creating brands for the future. You're creating brands for now.

And I think. I've never seen anything from Dickson back.

You'll be like, oh shit. That's the trendy stuff, they've finally backed down to this and they're exploring this. It's like, it always feels like there's a creative voice, a creative thread, creative output, and there's a creative bravery by actually saying no to this stuff because that's ultimately why you're here today.

Because that's what's giving you that [00:44:00] longevity. 

Aporva Baxi: Yeah. I, thanks for saying that. I think the thing that we try, or weproud of in a sense, or try to hold onto is relevance, relevance to, in today's market, this, there's so many, amazing companies, agencies, individuals, creatives. And if you move outside a brand, as I said, into fashion, into music, into every creator that's on TikTok, you know, it's, it's mind blowing and overwhelming, the amount of stuff that's produced.

but I think, as I said, you know, it's about, finding the truth of who we are. I think we are proud of being idiosyncratic. we are part of the industry, but we've also felt. Slightly outside of the industry, not through any form of a, of wanting to be in and out. I think we're trying to be open source and sharing work, but we have to almost create a safe space where we operate.

and what happens in here is,I, in our own way, trying to be distinct and unique and to be honest, that's a conversation that happens every day. It's [00:45:00] something you have to work on because you know, the speed with which things work, the speed with which we might need to work, you know, convenience or our recipes, provide that framework.

And so it's a con constant challenge in every project to find that one unique thing that makes it stand out. And I think that's really powerful. and I think there is a tension, convenience can, You it'd be powerful in, in, in that kind of 80 20 rule where we try and create frameworks that allow us to not waste time doing the 80% that is, you know, easy to do.

So we kind of have codified a lot of things, which saves the team tons of time so that we can concentrate on the 20% that has the biggest impact, the new ideas, the expression, the fact that we try and, not do things the same way every time. tho those things are really meaningful and we have to continue to do that and maybe either to set the benchmark for ourselves to inspire the [00:46:00] team or to inspire our peers as well.

and we look to our peers to do the same for us.

Radim Malinic: beautifully said. Before I let you go. You mentioned super futures and you guys put a lot of work in making sure that the fresh and new talent gets seen, gets developed. You have created enough space and resources to do this because it shows the level of leadership that you guys have achieved you have allowed the space for this.

And your sort of dedication to being open source and sayHey, this is how we do stuff. This is what It, is, and by the way, come and join us and we're help you to become something beyond your imagination is invaluable. So with that shift, 

 and the change that you see in people, like it must be quite satisfying to, to be that aware compassionate, empathetic and emotional intelligent, saying we can do better. In fact, we can be brave and actually put ourselves out there saying, we'll look after you. 

Aporva Baxi: Yeah. look, it's been a long journey, as I said, you know, from the school of hard knots to a certain way of working and to, [00:47:00] have self-reflection. I think, maybe creatives have the opportunity to. Introspect and maybe not introspect too much, but certainly for us, we've very much thought about ourselves as individuals and about the company.

 it's that idea of design for life. So we're spending as much time designing the business as we are designing the work or the space for the team to feel excited. and certainly over the last decade, we spent a lot of time, thinking about how to be better ourselves as leaders, how to foster a healthier environment.

one that's empathetic, to build a team blend that has people from, you know, we have 55 people, we have 18 nationalities. We have people from all over the world, very multilingual, and that gives us different perspectives. And then on top of that, with the Dixon Max Way journeys and so on, is rooted in.

Maybe, a point in our career where we are like, well, we, there's no point retaining this [00:48:00] knowledge. Maybe it comes through, a confidence in who we are. and the ability to share that is empowering. And also the idea of being generous is something that we feel is optimistic in a world that can, you know, can be quite mean.

You know, when we need that. Right? We need the,and we see it more often. Right? Yeah. I don't know if you're seeing that there's kind of a more generous spirit. certainly. Maybe the comment sections get a bit unruly. and it's not fair sometimes to, you know, e everyone piles on to certain things and I think that's, everyone should take a beat.

Pause and think about what they're doing because, you know, faced with the same barrage, it's not cool. but I think there's a responsibility for the industry to look after itself, to elevate and amplify as many voices as possible, not just founders and co-founders. You know, I think that we have a really diverse team, so we're really excited to, to show all of those faces.

that's what the Dixon Baxley way is [00:49:00] about, so that people entering the industry or unsure about the industry, see themselves and see an opportunity beyond being a designer to being part of the industry in so many meaningful ways. And then this industry is one that has creativity in the power of that it's root that is transformational, that can actually affect change in business, in policy, maybe in the way we see the world, in how the world exists.

So that's really exciting. and as a business we try and invest in that. we make space for the ability to open our teams' minds to be more liberated and inventive. And what we are doing actually in two weeks time is, stopping closing the studio, so to speak, from the day work for a whole week.

and we're having a super features week for the entire team, and we're going away for essentially a Dixie Maxie Creative Festival. For ourselves. And the idea being it's a whole bunch of activities [00:50:00] talks are inviting different speakers in, but it's also,a chance to have the team step out of their work, to create things that feel unexpected and different and to come back recharged.

It's almost like a mini sabbatical for the entire business to take a moment. And I think those are the types of things that, we'd love to see, you know, happen more often for ourselves. and I know, you know, the mini sort of empathetic and forward thinking businesses that are doing things like that.

And I think, you know, the more we involve the community and,participate in that and take responsibility for it, the better for all of us.

Radim Malinic: It's beautiful that you said mini sabbatical because. 

 it's so easy to get lost in everything, in all that noise 

how you guys look after your talent, with 55 people and 18 nationalities. Sounds like you've got amazing mix of ingredients, in the studio because. That proves the cognitive diversity that proves the way that you do work, [00:51:00] that it speaks for itself because that's ultimately you're investing in people, you're investing in their lives, you investing in their 

Aporva Baxi: they're the heart of the

when I come into the studio, that's the thing I look forward to. we have an intern academy of people of, lots of backgrounds. and it makes it, that's where the energy comes from and it's the ability for everyone to, to share that, that empowers, the work.

Radim Malinic: in my opinion, this is your definition of brave. Be brave to challenge the status quo. be brave to be that difference you want to see in the world. So We could easily talk about this for the rest of the day, but, 

and this is not the last time we talk, I cherish our conversations that we obviously have today and our conversation that we have in real life because.

We believe in the similar things. We believe in the same outcome. And yeah, I really appreciate what you guys do and how you look after the future because ultimately, as I see it, it is daring to design for life. Like you actually have that north star, you have that purpose, you have that vision and the ultimate [00:52:00] destination.

That's for benefit of all of us. So thank you very much for what you're doing, 

Aporva Baxi: Yeah.

Radim Malinic: you for this conversation. 

Aporva Baxi: Thank you. really enjoyed it. It's always a pleasure talking to you and I really enjoyed this conversation too. Nice one. 

Radim Malinic: Thank you.

 Thank you for listening to this episode of Daring Creativity Podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions, and suggestions, So please get in touch via the email, in the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me. Rad Malid.

The audio production was done by Neil Mackay from 7 million Bucks Podcast. Thank you and I hope to see you on the next episode. [00:53:00]