Paula Zuccotti is a multi-hyphenated creative who transformed from industrial designer to design ethnographer to future archaeologist. Born in Buenos Aires, she moved to London on a British Council scholarship and spent 12 years at Seymour Powell before launching her groundbreaking project "Everything We Touch."

This unique documentary project photographs every single object a person touches in one day, from waking to sleeping, creating powerful visual stories that reveal hidden truths about how we live. Paula has captured over 100 people's days across the globe - from cowboys to geishas, two-year-olds to indigenous hunters. ~

Her work emerged from childhood observations of her grandmothers' different lifestyles and evolved into a method for understanding human behavior, cultural shifts, and societal changes. During COVID lockdown, she created a global archive of people's "15 essentials," collecting 1000 photos from 50 countries that revealed how humanity coped with unprecedented uncertainty.

Key Takeaways

• Observe with purpose - Paula's childhood habit of quietly watching people became her professional superpower, proving that curiosity about human behavior can become a career
• Create your own methodology - When Paula discovered design ethnography in a magazine, she pitched it to her employer and literally created her future role through initiative
• Find stories in the everyday - The most mundane objects tell profound stories about who we are, how we live, and what we value in ways curated social media never could
• Embrace being the "frog from another pond" - Paula thrives by being the observer in new environments, taking time to understand before asserting her voice
• Document disappearing worlds - Technology changes rapidly, but Paula captures how we interact with objects as they evolve and become obsolete
• Use constraints to spark creativity - Her rigid protocol (chronological order, same space, white background) creates consistency that lets individual stories shine through differences
• Turn rejection into motivation - When Penguin initially rejected her book idea, Paula used it as fuel to create more work rather than waiting for permission
• Self-fund your passion projects strategically - Paula found creative ways to fund her project through book advances, commissions, and combining personal work with business travel
• Question without judgment - Her work allows her to ask intimate questions about people's lives through objects that would be impossible in normal social interactions
• Preserve cultural wisdom - Her focus on indigenous communities recognizes that traditional ways of living hold valuable knowledge that deserves documentation and respect

Daring Creativity. Podcast with Radim Malinic

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EP10 - Paula Zuccotti

Paula Zuccotti: [00:00:00] I need to capture how our lives are evolving. So that was the first, uh, the first point. And it was like, okay, how can I document daily life? So that was the beginning. And the second one was that in the work that I do, most times you see people as consumers of, or users of and which that's great.

I also wanted to look at life without filters, you know, so rather than going on a mission for Nike or Ikea or Google or you know, the world looking at the world through the eyes, I just wanted to look at the world through the eyes of. What it's like being a chef, a baby, a geisha, a cowboy. Um,  see the new narratives that emerge when you see life that way.

You know, normally in the world of marketing and market research, uh, you cannot believe your own narrative sometimes, and you see the word as people that buy your narrative and [00:01:00] people that are rejected of your narrative. So I just wanted to kind of like see what happens when, 150 brands come together in, in your life and you are not carrying the flag of any of them. 

Welcome to the Daring Creativity Podcast, a show about daring to forever explore creativity that isn't about chasing shiny perfection. It's about showing up with all your doubts and imperfections and making them count. It's about becoming more of who you already are. My name is Radim Malinic. I'm a designer, author, and eternally curious human being.

I am talking to a broad range of guests who share their stories of small actions that sparked lifetime discoveries, taking one step towards the thing that made them feel most alive. Let me begin this episode with a question for you. Let me begin this episode with a question. Are you ready to discover what happens when you dare to create?

Let me begin this episode of a question. Are you ready to discover what happens when you dare to create? Let me begin this episode with a question. Are you ready to discover what happens when you dare to create?

 Today I'm talking to Paula Zuccotti, a multi hyphenated creative who transform from industrial designer to design ethnographer to future archeologist. [00:02:00] Born in Buenos Aires, she moved to London on a British council scholarship, and spent 12 years at Seymour Power.

And spend 12 years at Seymour Power before launching head and groundbreaking project, everything we touch. This unique documentary project, this U, this unique documentary project, photographs every single object a person touches in one day from walking to sleep. In creating powerful visual stories that reveal hidden truths about how we live.

Paul has captured over a hundred.

Paula has captured more than a hundred people's days across the globe from cowboys to geishas, two year olds to indigenous hunters. Her work emerges from charter observation to her grandmother's different lifestyles, and evolves into a method for understanding human behavior, cultural shifts, and societal changes.

It's my pleasure to introduce Paula Zuccotti. 

Radim Malinic: Hey, Paula, welcome to the show. How are you doing today?

Paula Zuccotti: Thank you so much for having me here.

Radim Malinic: Um, I always say I'm excited, but I'm always excited about these conversations because what you do is truly, truly unique and [00:03:00] your story, your work, your social connections, Uh, your way of working is, is, is, is super unique. So for those who may have never heard of you, how would you introduce yourself?

Paula Zuccotti: Uh, thank you for that intro. I'm Paola Ti, I'm a designer, originally an industrial designer, uh, become ethnographer forecaster strategist, and I work at the intersection of anthropology, art, and culture.

Radim Malinic: I mean, where do we start? That is, you know, sometimes when people introduce me to a talk or something, I like, I feel a little bit embarrassed by doing quite a lot because to some mortals might be too much. Whereas compared to you, I do almost nothing. So. 

Paula Zuccotti: No, that, that's not fair because I think I'm a hyphen. Am I something hyen, something hy, you know? Uh, so I'm kind of like an evolution of one thing after the other one. So I dunno what the end result is, is the, and I dunno if it is like designer plus ethnography plus that, or slash to be honest. But, uh, I dunno, I'm, I'm happy with what it is now.

Radim Malinic: I think they call it multi hyphenated creative. I think there's this, this beautiful part that we can be whatever we wanna be these days. And I think, as you say, I dunno where I'm going, but it's the eternal curiosity that's taking you from one thing to another. Because we do still live in a world that likes to put [00:04:00] labels on people.

Like Like who are you, do the one thing or no, how do you explain yourself? Whereas I think having a problem sometimes explain yourself what you do is a Good.

problem to have. So from your accent, people can sort of potentially guess that you're from South America, you were, you were, you born in burnes, IRS and I do have the habit.

Going back to the beginnings a little bit. So what is the making of multi hyphenated designer, uh, that now lives in London? 

Paula Zuccotti: Oh, uh, going back to the beginning in a, in a kind of like fast track. So I was born in Buenos Aires. I studied industrial design there, and then I had the opportunity to apply for a postgraduate, a master degree in the UK and through the British Council. So I applied, I won that scholarship. I came here and I came here like, um.

I think I spent half of my life in Buenos Aires and half here, although if you tell me I'm a hundred percent Argentinian, but a Londoner, if that's, if that's something. And so I did a master's in strategy, design, strategy, and innovation. [00:05:00] With got me into working at one of the London's best, uh, product design and innovation consultancies called Seymour Powell.

 I started working there after my masters, and I worked there for 12 years, and I became the head of research and director of Futures at the company,  uh, looking after everything that had to do with the creation of new products and services, inspiring that vision through the lens of human behavior, culture and trends.

Um, I worked there for 12 years and then I left 12 years ago to set up my own business and creative practice. So, uh, yes, that's kind of like I'm where I am now. I'm a, in a 12 years, uh, working, uh, independently as a small business.

Radim Malinic: Love it. So what are the makings of, in, what are the makings of industrial design in Argentina? What was the surroundings that got you inspired, you know, intrigued, curious about product design? 

Paula Zuccotti: yeah, I mean, it's interesting because I think I studied product design because [00:06:00] I wasn't sure if I wanted to study architecture or graphic design. I'm somehow in the middle looking at the, at the, careers. I was like, oh, industrial design is something in between. I mean, it's a bit of a naive view.

No, no, no. No, no, An architecture or nothing designer would agree with that today. And, but I kind of like went into a world that I did not know, like, I think, like I wanted to study something that I knew nothing about. I went to a business school. Uh, my parents were in banking and economics, and so I jumped into a, a new world and I think those, I kind of like that it's really scary at the start, but always being in a place where you are, like in Spanish we have a phrase that it's called.

 Saso, which is like a, a frog from another pond. You know, I guess a bit silly, but, uh, it is kind of like that, that, that idea. Um, so the make it of an industrial designer there, I went to the public state university, which is kind of like one of the best in the country and it makes really resourceful, smart people.

As a result, you know, you study with great teachers in great environments with no resources, no financial support, in [00:07:00] very bare class conditions. I'm talking like 20, 25 years ago. And it creates, I mean, that scarcity and willing to study and thrive, uh,  uh, makes a really great community.

 Of people coming out of, uh, coming out of it. So it's a long degree there. It's like a five years degree compared to here in the UK that it could be like three to four. So you don't, you do go through,  um, you know, from entire year to conceptual, to visual. Uh, it's, it's good. All rounded.

Radim Malinic: You know, the first argent,  you know, my first Argentinian guest by my second Argentinian guest to, to, to tell me the story, how the education in Argentina was pivotal to their life, because. You said, I learned from great people and I had a Ezekiel Abramson on the show, uh, on a previous season, and he was very much talking about like how top illustrators, top designers were,  you know, teaching them or they better their professors at a university.

And you're like, do you do that? Because for some, I don't have a experience of English education. I, I, I came here already, you know, finished, but, but my experience is doing guest lectures and sometimes you see people being really good and sometimes you see people just having a job as a design tutor.

So this story of you, you know, or learning from some of the best, especially when you didn't know well, especially when you were in a world that you didn't know. To me the cross between architecture and graphic design makes perfect sense. That is product design, isn't it? I mean, that is a beautiful way of actually, [00:08:00] that how you marry those two worlds because Yeah. the world you didn't know it's kind of. philosophy follows you pretty much till today. 

Paula Zuccotti: Yeah, I like that. I like that view. It is, it is always like, uh,  yes. Again, you know, like, and when I came to England, I came to the master's degree, and again, I was like, from another world, you know, like it was a,  I've always felt, uh, and I, I, I'm always kind of like having a start at places where I'm like.

 Shy and observant, and I kind of like tried to figure out my voice in that new place. And I, I don't walk into a new place loud, if you know, if you know what I mean. I'm kind of like trying to find, uh, how do I and my views and myself connect to that? What's the best intersection between myself and that and that place?

And I think that applies to projects, to, um, uh, you know, collaborating in, uh, group teams or, uh, yes, studying or coming up with here how do I connect or, or giving a talk somewhere. Uh, you know, when I give a talk the first five minutes, I'm kind of like crawling a little bit nervous until I find, uh, and that's, that's, a very, in a, I don't even have time to [00:09:00] prepare it because I'm giving the talk actually at the moment.

 But it's finding that connection between you and the audience. The place. And I think when I, when I, when I find that I feel the most comfortable and I can fly in there, you know, so I think it takes a while. 

Radim Malinic: It's really interesting when you say shy and kind of taking it all in from the sidelines because it's usually the giveaway of someone's feeling of inferiority or someone's sort of need to assert themselves in a situations that  we became, well we, they them become loud on purpose just to assert themselves and make sure that they get seen.

It's almost like that hierarchy of the people in the room, whereas. Personally, like seeing things from the sidelines and actually not necessarily being the first person that needs to speak. Or when you take, when, when you give yourself time and opportunity to understand and observe, you're always gonna make a better first step.

You know, your next step's gonna be much more informed rather than the one saying like, like, you know, am I here? Am I here for the right reason? Am I doing this because, Yeah.

'cause we got [00:10:00] similar stories. I mean, I've been in the UK pretty much the same, same, amount of time as you. And I remember coming here on a slightly different mission.

You were coming to study masters. I came here record shopping and just enjoyed a culture. Um, what was it like for you? 'cause you said you, you, you were here with the sort of scholarship from English Council 

Paula Zuccotti: Hmm.

Radim Malinic: going into the unknown. Did you have many expectations? Did you go with a, a a, eyes open wide?

Did you, did you, did you ever doubt it? There were, there was the right decision. 

Paula Zuccotti: no. Never doubted I didn't know that I was gonna come and stay by the way. I was coming for one year. But, that that's what it happened. Um, no, I, I, I was kind of full of expectations, but also expectations with no boundaries. You know, I didn't have the low and the high. I just had the enthusiasm of, uh, what I was gonna do with myself with this opportunity and.

During, when I was doing the, the master's degree, and I, I I, I do this little bracket to tell you this because it has to do with what I ended up doing for, for living. I came across an article on a magazine and it was Viewpoint [00:11:00] Magazine that talk about design ethnography, and it was a complete new term.

Nobody, this is kind of like, I'm talking 2000,  uh, the year 2000,  uh, nobody was talking about. And it was like a really new, uh, methodology that, companies like Apple, Xerox, Intel in Palo Alto were sending anthropologists to. What at the time they consider to be other cultures. So, you know, instead of designing from America to the world with an American mentality, they could send, uh, anthropologists to what they consider further a field like, you know, like Far East Asia or uh, Africa or Latin America, to study culture, to learn how people live, to then inform the design process.

And I read that during the master on that openness on an article. And I was like, wow, that this is exactly what I would love to do. In a way, I, I wasn't an anthropologist, I wasn't that person. I wasn't working for any of those companies, but I was like, this, this is everything that I like. I like product design, I like culture, I like people, I like [00:12:00] traveling.

I like immersing myself in the life of others. So I, when I had the opportunity of doing a placement at Seymour Powell, which then became my 12 years job. I pitched the idea of bringing that method and design ethnography. I said, look, I will learn about this during my masters. I write my dissertation on it, and I'll come back here and I can stay and develop this for you.

So it was a winning situation because I got to create that in the, in the context of, uh, industrial design and innovation consultancy. Not necessarily, you know, like the Palo Alto companies. Um, yes. So yeah, that was the, the beginning.

Radim Malinic: I, I would say, I mean, in a, in a concept of daring creativity or daring forever, you've created, through your curiosity, you've created your future role because reading about design ethnography and being excited about it, it was that you started joining dots together. I like that you could see that feature there, because  what I find fascinating is it's not fascinating.

Let me reword it. You find. You, you already thinking about design process [00:13:00] differently, to my opinion as a graphic designer or an architect, you are in this, you know, in this, your own little sort of Venn diagram bubble.  You're in this Venn diagram bubble on your own thinking, I'm gonna join all of these curiosities, all of these ideas and all these visions and wants in a way, in, in, in this profession, well actually in this, in this job title.

Because as no one becomes or wants to be anthropologist or design ethnographer by accident. So where, where, does your curiosity about live humans, you know, products, where does that come from? Because you said your mom worked in finance and, and, it's, it's not necessarily too deep on that philosophical level from my perspective, but how, how do we join these dots together?

Like, because you've created your own future based on something that was inside. 

Paula Zuccotti: I think what I, I. Always did. Uh, as a child, I would say observe, you know, like I would just, I dunno, I love just seeing people doing stuff, you know, and that's what I do today. But to the point that I also, I was an only child growing up. Now I got siblings now, but I was an only child growing up and I also spend a lot of time with my grandmothers that were looking after me in a very kind of like, quiet environment.

Can you imagine? Like grandmother and me only child, you know, beautiful relationships, but very silent, very quiet, very uh, contemplative, you know? And I think that gave me a lot of, uh, time in my head and to think so I'm, I dunno, it's [00:14:00] like looking at things and processing and coming up with my own ideas. I don't remember, I remember I used to observe my grandmother doing things like folding, wrapping paper and just like little, you know, little acts or the way that she store food in the fridge.

And then I end up doing that for companies, helping them create better packaging of how people, you know, like, um. But it is that kind of like observations of how we, I used to remember, I love my, uh, I have one of my grandmothers was really simple and austere and she didn't surround herself with objects.

And the other one could have like, even like a sanctuary on her bedside table of Little Saints like, and things and just observing, you know, had two different lifestyles. They were like very similar people with a very similar background. Um, but they lived really differently. And,  uh, I dunno, I remember observing that and making something of it.

What do I see of that? What is that telling me about my, my grannies in a, in a different way? So that, that became, I think when I realized that ethnography was the connector of all of that. And I could apply that to [00:15:00] informing the design process by looking at those insights of how we do things.

That was the. the. That was the, connector. I dunno, I never thought about it, what I just told you now, but it's, but it's like, um, um, I did, yeah, I did think about my granny's before in that way, but not, not in that, not, yeah. 

Radim Malinic: That's why you're here to, to, to join the dots 

Paula Zuccotti: Yeah.

Thank you for the questions, by the way.

Radim Malinic: No, no, No, no, no. I've, I've gotta, I mean, this, this is interesting because I'm already getting the hint of where we heading with your story of you watching your grandmother folding paper, you know, like wrapping paper, doing things.  I, I'm not an only child, but we've got big gaps between us.

I got two, two younger sisters, and I had, I had a great grandmother, but I was growing up, so at weekends I would stay with her in, out, out of, out of town. And I would watch them. I mean, she was born in like 1902 or something. Like, it was, it was a different generation. Very austere, very modest. And I remember like kind of observing the world through quite sort of, I mean, I, I, we didn't know back then that that was the quieter life.

I mean, what we've got now is hectic compared. Right. But I remember the, the TikTok on. On the clock, You know,

like when literally the, the room is so silent, it goes tick, tick. And somehow, like that experience is fascinating yet eerily spooky. It was like, I, I can't hear that anymore.

Paula Zuccotti:  completely.

Radim Malinic: it scares me because, yeah. 

Paula Zuccotti: it, it is just the way we did things. You know, my granny and I used to phone a telephone number, like one one three to figure out the weather, and all, all, all of those things. And you know, how technology change,  uh, those things. I mean, it's fascinating from a kind of behavior point of view of what we do every day.

And that TikTok that you said the same,

Radim Malinic:  Yeah. So something scary about it. But you, so you've done 12 years, is it Seymour Powell? 

Paula Zuccotti: Yes.

Radim Malinic: So you've done, so you've done to reviews with Smo Powell, uh, you had a beautiful title of Head of Researchers and Head of Futures. I mean, that feels like an empowering job title then potentially comes with lots of responsibility, like Head of Futures, like [00:16:00] no pressure.

Go tell us. and then you went on your own. And one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you today is 'cause you've got this fascinating project called Everything We Touch. I didn't really think much about this concept only in passing when I had, uh, someone called Beyond Kovski on this show who's a, a, a Swedish designer who happened to have an album cover or singles cover designed by Andy Warhol.

 And Andy Warhol was apparently famous for creating time capsules. Apparently Andy Warhol pretty much took everything every year and put it in a box and put it away and started it again. And me and Bjo obviously got chatting about books and sort of what we do as creatives and how we put stuff together, whereas.

Way what you do, you've taken a whole of like the concept of time capsules and sort of what you, as you call yourself, the, um, oh God, it was a future uh, was the arch archeologist. 

Paula Zuccotti: archeology. Yeah.

Radim Malinic: Yeah.

And you call yourself a future archeologist. Like you've already twisted that concept on its head and created something so fascinating that it, it fills me with so much curiosity and so much intrigue because as another observer of humanity, you know, don't go to the [00:17:00] gallery.

If you want to see how people behave, watch them on a high street. You know, that's my mantra. You've created something which is absolutely fascinating. So I want to know where did the idea of everything we touch come from and how has it taken us till today? 

Paula Zuccotti: Yeah. Well, um, for everything we touch is, uh, the concept is, uh, tell the story of someone by showing a day in their lives. So with everything we touch, I photograph every single thing that a person touches, uh, in a single day of their life from waking up to going to sleep. And I have done this, I published it as a book in 2015, and I've been doing this for the past.

Yes, more than, more than 10 years. So the idea is, can we tell, you know, can we tell someone's life by just looking at all the objects that they touch in one day, and what will that picture tell me about them and about us, and about our society? And it is, it is so revealing. And because, you know, in this world where we kind of associate [00:18:00] ourselves to a selfie or a curated side of our personality, where you may say, oh, Paola, what are your  your fa  favorite five things?

And I will come with, I dunno, my best t-shirt record player, my best book, and. My jewelry, I dunno. But everything we touch is like an x-ray of your life because it is everything you do in 24 hours. So while you may have your favorite t-shirt on, you also touch a Tupperware and clean film and house keys and um,  medicine and a bottle of wine.

And it is kind of like everything that you need in a day to live, survive, have fun, express yourself, uh, cope, uh, work out. Uh, it's just kind of a really good unit. If I, if I may say I had to come up with a unit in order to tell these life experiences. So that's a story. So I, um. I photograph people on their everyday lives and everyday lives goes back to my studies as an ethnographer when I studied everyday lives and sorry, I, I felt that I needed to explain what everything we touch, uh, was before [00:19:00] telling you where it came from.

 Um, as a, again, you know, going back to the life as designer at Ethnographer, I've been working, uh, on the design of products, you know, from the conceptual and vision point of view since 2000. So I got to work on design of, uh, TVs remote controls, speakers. Mobile phones for companies like, you know, Nokia, lg, Samsung, and those products are not here anymore.

many of them, um, they were disappearing, becoming obsolete in our lives. When I was researching this in 2002, we had four remote controls in our TV rooms. We had, uh, a set box, we had a digital box, we had the VHS, we had the DVD, we had the Hi-Fi. And so kind of like, I've seen the changes, you know, like working on this field, uh, for these sort of clients is since.

2000 I think things change. And I was thinking like, I need, who is capturing, well, not who is capturing, but I need to capture this. I need to capture how our lives are evolving. So that was the first, uh, the first point. And it was like, okay, how can I document daily life? So that was [00:20:00] the beginning. And the second one was that in the work that I do, most times you see people as consumers of, or users of and which that's great.

I also wanted to look at life without filters, you know, so rather than going on a mission for Nike or Ikea or Google or you know, the world looking at the world through the eyes, I just wanted to look at the world through the eyes of. What it's like being a chef, a baby, a geisha, a cowboy. Um,  see the new narratives that emerge when you see life that way.

 You know, normally in the world of marketing and market research, uh, you cannot believe your own narrative sometimes, and you see the word as people that buy your narrative and people that are rejected of your narrative. So I just wanted to kind of like see what happens when, 150 brands come together in, in your life and you are not carrying the flag of any of them.

So that was the second more rebellious point in a [00:21:00] way.

Radim Malinic: Right. I want to know when did the first picture photograph collection came together? Who was your breakthrough? Because. I love the way that you've been already at the forefront of, you know, making these items, like you said, remote. when I remember having like a HiFi remote that also worked for the CD player, I was like, oh, I can only use one of these as opposed to three of these.

You know, it was like a bonus, like, how does this work? And there was something beautiful about it because it just felt like. Sort of like a narrow path between one experience. You need this remote, you need that cd, you need that CD player, that set of speakers, you know, that it, it was there. Whereas as you quite eloquently say in your, in your, in your work, like things are changing.

Things are changing. And some of the most rudimentary objects are very much still the same. The knives, you know, the cutters, the chopping balls very much do the same. Whereas this puff of excitement with like the first mobile phones that were no longer sort of needed in that same form, like 10 years later, like everything's changing really fast, especially with technological advances.

But as you said, those things are disappearing because they are keep sort of evolving, evolving, evolving. And whenever I think about sort of like how I use my phone for every single TV in the house or for everything around the house, it's just, it's all kind of contained within the phone.

Although it's still categorized a and under a different app. Like there is no such thing that does, you know, one thing does, does all, but ' cause my, again, long way of going around to saying. Yeah.

who was the first person? What was the first picture and was it,  did you come up with the format straight away or did you adapt it a few times before you settled?

Because you gotta use a, use a template, right? You've got like a certain amount of space. You've got a certain amount of things. Obviously, whatever people bring, they bring. But who was the breakthrough? Who was The first person?

Paula Zuccotti: The breakthrough was, uh, my best friend Clarissa. And, um, she's Argentinian too, and we used to live nearby and she happened to have a shed studio in the, in her  uh, backyard. And her husband, her ex-husband now was a photographer. So. Not having thought about that, that he was a photographer. We, that, that was like, oh my God, then we can also do this.

 So the first point was like, I was telling her I have this idea. And she was like, that's amazing. And I was like, but who in earth? You know, who is gonna lend themselves to this experiment with me? How am I gonna convince people to keep a record of everything they touching one day? How is this gonna [00:22:00] happen?

And she was like, I'll do it. And I was like, really? I's like, yeah, yeah, I'll do it for you. So we did it together. And I remember she was going through, you know, we said today that we were gonna record Everyth scene that she touched. And it was beautiful, you know, like she was taking her daughters to school to tap dancing lessons.

It's the uniforms, it's everything is her day. It's her gym class. It's her going out. Uh, it is the restaurant she went to. And I remember she was like, uh, but pa the, the mailman just came and I, I used the pen to sign an envelope to. Yes, I want that. And my hair band that I touched in the morning, the first thing before I touched toilet paper and I, you know, yes.

That goes to, and the clean film. And we started to realize the power on those little things that you don't think about, but they are necessary to your every day. So what we did together and then it was like, okay, we need to get all the things. And we used, uh, her husband's, uh, shed her ex take who also.

Taught me, uh, how to do a photo as such, because [00:23:00] yes, I was, you know, taking photos, but not to that level of how technical it is. So it was a, a amazing serendipity that, you know, like take was there to let me hand. Um,  so we did kind of like the first photo he helped me and we couldn't work it out.

It was just so complex when you photograph of objects from, from above. Um, so, we got there, but then I kind of like started to investigate and find out how could I do it better? How could I con because we weren't able to connect the camera to our phones or anything like that. So we were just kind of like  trying to hold the camera above while not being ourselves in the shot.

Well anyway, so. The, the, the system and kept, kept improving. The second one was my husband. You know, like I had like really nice people that were like, of course I'll do it for you. Then, uh, I did my children and that was good because they were like five and seven at the time. So I, yes, so I took a photo, you know, with my husbands.

We record the, the day in their lives. It was beautiful. Now I have a time capsule of what they were like, you know, when they were five and seven and what they play with and [00:24:00] their favorite toys then. But yes, so then I was like, okay, if I'm gonna do this, uh, properly, you know, if I'm gonna take this far, then I need to develop like a protocol.

I'm being a researcher and having trouble, you know, they were researching for companies and always designing research protocols. I was, okay, uh, this is, these are the rules. These are the things that you need to record. I'm I gonna, I'm gonna recreate people's food. Uh, and how is that gonna happen? Uh, if you touch a light switch or a tap.

It doesn't matter. Uh, if you drive your car, I want your car keys, your chewing gum, your parking ticket, your sunglasses, making sure that people don't forget things. If you have a shower, you may come back to me, uh uh oh. Pa I brought my towel and my soap. And I'll be like, what is a shampoo? What is your eraser?

Uh, where is this? And that, and that and that. And that, and that So, and then the space, I was like, okay, I need to give everybody the same space so the photos look consistent and a white background. So I, I work on an always arctic white with the same photo, um, lighting set and two meter 70 by four to everyone. And I fit your life there.

[00:25:00] Either if you have a lot of things or not. The photo will look more sparse or more compact, but everybody gets the same space.

Radim Malinic:  From an art director perspective, no. Let me rewrite it back. I love. How it all came together with just a friend  and, uh, and her husband as a help, uh, to get it started. Because looking at your photos, technically, you know, like they seem technically complicated because you've got qualitative objects.

So I think we should humor anyone who takes foot, no photography. Let's, let's go into the sort of technical detail, because from our direction perspective, everything in your photos is properly lined up. You know, it's got space around it. like it's beautifully immaculately, you know, like you make chaos, immaculately organized.

I mean, shall we, so shall we call chaos?  I don't think anyone who produced their items would say, oh, my life was chaotic, but to make sense of these items. Do you go by sort of time of the day or do you, how do you do this? So that was my first question is what sort of lens do you use? What do you have, like a rig that you, that you've got?

Oh, 

Paula Zuccotti: I got it. Read. Oh, no, no, I got it here. 

Yeah, 

Radim Malinic: Yep.

Paula Zuccotti: lens.

Radim Malinic: What is the lens. Because I can't see it. 

Paula Zuccotti: Yeah,

it is the 1635. So that's the lens. And then I have a Canon [00:26:00] 60, and I had actually have the same camera since 2013 when I took the first photo. And I do, I do travel with a background stand and an extension that is the most analog piece, but I travel with me and then I hire, uh, you know, the lights on the studios when, when I go away abroad.

Um, yeah, that's, that's the key. It's kind of quite basic. And then I connect my camera to either my phone or my computer through the Canon app, and I shoot from there and I can control everything. But the, the way, um, that you were saying about the building of the photo, so I have something that I cannot change, and it's the chronology of your day, so it has to go in the order of touching.

So I can't, let's say. I can't put your towel before your soap, or I, well, things like that. So I'm kind of like limited and constrained by how things go. But then I play with a photo as if there were paragraphs on a book. So if you, my photos read from left to right, top to bottom, but I might create different paragraphs of lines of objects, [00:27:00] so it will all sit perfectly on the same, uh, place.

 And then I have challenges like, you know, like tall objects. Ideally they will go in the center and not on the edges, because otherwise you'll see them, like if they were lying flat.  So I have to kind of like, it's a, it is a bit of a mass problem, so I can't, I can't cheat with the order, but I have to work it.

So technically and visually, if I, it's a bit of a puzzle to be honest. Like when I'm there, each photo takes me like four and a half hours to, to make on the floor. And I'm kind of like wearing, you know, like socks and leggings and a tight tshirt because even my clothes can move. Object. So I, I'm kind of like a bit of a ninja style, you know, working on the, on the floor, doing the photo.

 Um, And then until I, when I, you know, like, you know, like things like, I think if people say when a ripple on the lake settles or it is chaotic and it's, or when the sea comes down that I'm, I'm happy. And that's when the final shot takes 

Radim Malinic: I'm I'm loving, I'm loving, 

the ninja moves. That is, that is quite, I mean, that's definitely the experience. Um, I was gonna ask you a question, I just forgotten, so you mentioned that your photos are like the paragraph, right? Uh, reading from left to right. [00:28:00] Do you have the reverse order for Arabic people?

Obviously they 

Paula Zuccotti: interesting. No,

Radim Malinic: they 

Paula Zuccotti: No, 

Radim Malinic: do. Do 

Paula Zuccotti: no, no,

Radim Malinic: in the same way? 

Paula Zuccotti: no, no, no, no, no, no, no. But I have, I have photographed, I have, uh, no, no, no, no, 

Radim Malinic: you see, I was, I was wondering if, if, if, if it's your rules or 

Paula Zuccotti: No, no, no, no, no, no. It's interesting. No, I, I'm thinking because I have photograph No, no, no, but no, No, no, no, no, no, I, No, no, no,

Radim Malinic: Yeah,

that's interesting. So with your post-production, and we'll talk more about, uh, the philosophy, but your post-production, like how much of a retouching is involved? Like is it, is it a raw picture that you publish or do you clean up things 

Paula Zuccotti: no, I do, I do, I do clean up sink. It's not, it's not a lot, but I do, and sometimes it will be like a shadow or I, it is interesting because I, you know, like things that roll, let's say at the Theod end or a jar, I put blue, ack, you know, like to hold them in place. And sometimes I was just like, end up, you know, finding, I'm cleaning up and I find like masking tape or blue tack or a string or something.

 And yes, so there is a little bit of like making it like final immaculate, and, but it's more to do with the paper than with the objects [00:29:00] themselves.

Radim Malinic: I got it. So from your compositions, obviously you've been doing this for more than 10 years now. Do you look back at some of the compositions and do you wish you've changed them or have you learned from, from practice, do 

Paula Zuccotti: Yes, Yes,

yes, yes, yes. Particularly in the beginning, because I was, some of the ones in the beginnings. I look, I look, back at them and I, I, I like the story, but I don't like the photo. And because probably I wasn't appreciating all the details. Probably at the beginning I was like more rushed to capture an art story and I don't like being rushed.

And that's kind of what one of the things when,  uh, but I have to, because this, I'll do it in a photo studio. I might be in a city and I can photograph two people in a day, so I just have the studio for eight hours and I need to work that way. And I'm also, it's people's lives, people's objects. There is a limit to, how long can you hold somebody's DS possessions.

But the yes, I look back and I'm like, eh, I wish I put things straighter. I could go and retouch it with Photoshop, but I, I won't do that. It's just, it's done. You know, it's that way.

Radim Malinic: Fifth, I think the only other time I've heard of. People sort of documenting their lives. So sometimes you get the food nutritionist and they would say, photograph everything you've eaten in a day to get an idea of what you eat. And then people get really surprised and go, oh, oh, okay. Is this what I eat?

Well, this doesn't look good. So with the stories that you've encountered, there's some some absolute, absolute fantastic stories [00:30:00] that you've captured, you know, from cowboys to geishas to all, all sort of, everyone in between, from two year olds to, you know,  older, the people. How did, anyone get almost surprised with the amount of stuff that they touch in a day on a daily basis?

Or, you know, is it a surprise? Is it a celebration? How do people feel about it Because it sounded like a thrilling project, 

but 

Paula Zuccotti: it is. People go through, yeah, I didn't expect that  

Radim Malinic: did, 

Paula Zuccotti: as a, as a result that people will go through their own, uh, experience. But I had people saying that they found the exercise really mindful in terms of like, stopping to think about things that you do daily that you don't think about. Um, you know, and this might be from, uh, photograph, you know, like for example, a gymnast that I photographed in Shanghai, um, he was realizing how many cigarettes and Red Bull and chocolate bars he had to get through, through the day to be, you know, to perhaps he was like teaching, uh, kids.

 Um, I dunno, like things like that, you know, kind of like this a, you know, recount I photographed, my last photograph was, uh, recently a indigenous hunter in Taipei, outside of Taipei. Um, he, uh, had go through, you know, in order to [00:31:00] keep, you know. Awake and alert when he goes hunting, he takes those, uh, you know, beetle nuts.

They're like a, like a stimulant similar to cocaine plants, and they're natural.  And that kind of like, was part of the big story, you know, realizing what are the things that you need to do? You, you need to do the things that you need to do. And I'll put it down to coffee or maybe going for a walk or, but just seeing everything in the context of how connected the things that you do are, you know, you can see again, new, new narratives.

I had people realizing, uh, my life is more occupied with work than with fun. Or, uh, my job is not represented on my photo. You know, people that would look at their photo and they are this artist or graphic designer or everything, and the work is just a laptop or a computer, and feeling that that story is not coming through, Um, there are like, so, so many levels of what you can, uh, discover.

Radim Malinic: It's fascinating because it says like a mindful approach, like a mindfulness, like we take a break from our lives because as we have touched on it earlier, like [00:32:00] once upon a time we were mostly mindful because there was nothing else to take our attention. hearing a TikTok on a clock or the cuckoo clock every hour, you're like, That's happening.

You know? Um, you know, you, you know, you, you sit on a bus, you watch your condensation. Like we were kind of more in tune with what was happening around us, but we thought we were absolutely bored. Like this, this is a boring life. We were telling ourselves like, what is that more exciting? Whereas how often do you have as a regular human being, times are actually step out and say.

do I need to do, like, what does my life look like? Like, you know, is, is have I got everything in the house I need or do I need to take stuff out? Do I need to bring more in? Like, we kind of make do with things, but we necessarily take a review or the know, the, the, the, the itinerary of our, no, sorry, inventory of our lives.

We don't always take inventory of our lives, you know, so it's like, there is, I think in a similar way, you can do things with workshops and talks, like you kind of, you transport people to somewhere else, whereas with what you do, you kind of, you, you, you elevate people above their lives and show them, this is how you live, this is what you do.

And  my question would be like, did anyone,  my question is, is, is it a true expression of someone's life or do people kind of. Has anyone sort of dialed up their day to make sure that they've got everything in the picture? You know, like for example, you don't always horse ride, you don't always paint, you don't always do things like, do you create a snapshot of your life or is it, do you give them a rule saying like, you know, it's, it's next Thursday, it's just a picture of your 

Paula Zuccotti: Yeah,

I, I help them pick a day that is like, uh, representative, you know, like, not, not the day that, I [00:33:00] dunno, you got married, you know, like, or the day that, and a day that is representative, uh, of your life. Be it a weekend or a weekday, you know, that's, that, that's optional. But some people surround, you know, we tend to surround ourselves with dream objects, you know, objects where we project that idea that we have of ourselves.

 It could be the books that we haven't read or the guitar that we haven't learned to play, or the photo camera that we haven't picked, or, you know, like things that you sing that one day you use them. And sometimes we, you know, we can, we create an image in our, in our minds of, of who we are. And sometimes when you have to limit that to actually what you really use, it's like when people say you are what you eat, or, you know, like you are what you do.

 So it kind of like brings a, it projects a mirror back to you of what is it that you actually, uh. Really do So I think like by, by having that as a framework,  uh, if you are not a guitar player, is is rare that your guitar will be there unless you are the type of person that in the evening just, you know, craft the guitar and plays a little bit.

 So yes, it tends to be defined by what you are actually [00:34:00] doing.

Radim Malinic: I've got a question for you, actually, you, because. You see this world from a totally different lens. You know, you, you, have to articulate other people, like what does their day in life look like? Has your experience to new objects, textures, flavors changed because, for example, process of writing a book, when I, when I work on a book every few years, I hear the world differently.

I perceive it differently. Like I'm trying to sort of join the dots. And in your way you must be thinking like, okay, today, like, I mean, maybe it's a second nature now, but has that experience of life changed for you through eyes of other people? 

Paula Zuccotti: Completely. And I think sometimes I, it is a bit like having muscle memory of things that are not my, my story. You know, like I have, like, I, like if I acquire muscle memory of other people's lives, you know, through the work that I do as my business, I, I travel the world, you know, researching, uh, industries, topics, you know, like it would be like luxury or high-end fashion [00:35:00] or banking.

And I would immerse myself, I've done, just came back from a big project on high-end luxury fashion in the Middle East and now I have those lenses. I have the lens of worries being a person that is. Surrounded by Highend, Highend, high-end fashion, luxury in the Middle East. And then last year I was studying the future of sports in China, looking at emerging sports and emerging ways of moving.

 or you know, like the, the one before, I was looking at how people look after their homes and take care of their homes in India. So I'm all the time looking at life from that point of view to then come back with, you know, ideas for, improvement or new product services, uh, brands. And I kind of like embrace all of that as, as, as my own.

So I keep changing how I do things, you know, like I, uh, I pick tips, you know, from different people or I like,  uh, I might like something that somebody else has. I was like, oh, I'm gonna try that. I dunno, I kind of have like through that. I dunno if it things, it, some sounds a bit silly, but [00:36:00] different ways, different lenses on the most basic things there.

It will be like cooking. Uh, banking or, like, um, dressing up, like, uh, things like that. That's 

Radim Malinic: I think it's a,

I think, I think it's a fascinating concoction of experiences because. You might go to another place as a tourist, see it, take some experiences home, maybe like one or two recipes or like find a know, find a flavor or something that you might wanna recreate. Whereas  not only you in, in, in far flung paces, not only like far away places, but you also get to really experience the life room now through research.

You actually, you've got a purpose to ask them questions, to go deeper and, and, join dots that you didn't even know existed in a, 

way. ' cause what I wanted to know from what you do and how you do it is where does the, and and you mentioned those words before, like mental health and you mentioned, you know, other sort of feelings with, with uh, connected to the items.

How do you see, and this is a warning for potentially too big of a question, but how do you see the element of happiness and material possessions  sort of being connected together? Because. I'm sure [00:37:00] that the snapshot of people's lives is mostly the positive, you know, like this is what a celebration of life is, but is there connection between happiness, materialism, mental health and all of this?

Because is there any link between it? 

Paula Zuccotti: Good, good question. I, I think the first things that I will demystify is like sometimes people, uh, and that's not what you're saying, but I know that's, I have been asked that on the, on the past. People think that, uh, you know. Amount of items you may surround, what yourself with has to do with wealth or lack of, and not, you know, like, and I don't think that's, that's a link.

And I think that everybody, you know, needs stuff daily and will apply, um, will apply meaning to all the things they have. So I would talk about that in a kind of like more general lenses, removing it from a kind of like, um, any association of consumerism and wealth and, uh, happiness. I would, I will remove that, that layer.

Um, I did a project during lockdown. I dunno if I mentioned it to you when, uh, and it goes back to your question about mental health and things. So when lockdown [00:38:00] started. I, you know, as everybody, I found myself like, like, what is gonna, you know, like it was like musical chairs, you know, the, the moment that the music stopped, you found yourself where you were.

 And one of the things that I realized is like my, my life in terms of objects was changing. I was spending more time at home, uh, you know, with all the kind of, um. Uncertainty that that that brought to us. And also all the beauty of being able to spend more time at home. And I realized that I was re reconnecting with objects in a different way.

Things that, you know, like I was, uh, I dunno, making my own gym at home, playing records instead of like listening to Spotify on the go, cooking more, et cetera. And I was like, oh my God, I'm, I'm sure people are starting to have different ways of connecting with, with their homes, with their environment as well.

People kind of like, you know, reshift things, uh, in their homes. And I remember putting away plates and, and stuff that I had for guests and they were taking space. I was like, well, no guests are gonna come to my house for a while. I'm just gonna move all of this. I wanna just live with what I need. So a lot of changes.

 And I was thinking like, I wanna document how this is happening in other people's homes and [00:39:00] around the world. So unable to travel and unable to. You know, touch other people's objects. I put a call on social media. I published, I took a photo of my new 15 essentials and I was like, these are the objects that became essential to my life now, now.

 And I think they are reflecting my new habits and my hopes and fears particularly, what about yours? What are your new essentials? So again, the protocol, not your toothbrush that you used, it was essential last month, but things that you're looking at it with new lens. And I meant, I created a hashtag that it was everything.

We touched COVID Essentials 15 really long, and I tend, it kind of like traveled. So people started to share their life through this new 15 essential objects. And I collected 1000 photos from 50 different countries and I created the. Public archive is called www lockdown essentials.org, and you can go and see all the stories because what people had to do as well was to take the photo of the 15 items and [00:40:00] write a line explaining their choice.

 So you could go and see, you know, how was lockdown in Saudi or Brazil or India. You could access, or China, you could access access archive. And it is amazing because every, every, you know, apart from being we were all in the same, uh, experience in the same thing. And you can also see how different societies were dealing with it differently.

So for example, in so many photos that I have, and it goes back to your question about happiness and coping and mental health. So for example, in many photos that I have from Africa, um, one of the ways in which communities, you know, uh, deal with uncertainty or when something is not, not right, they will go to church together as a community.

 In the absence of that, my photos have a zoom next to, you know, a computer, next to a Bible. That the new church on Zoom or Facebook, um, then, uh, a lot of photos from China had the scales as people were wearing, uh, females, you know, about women about putting on weight or, um, photo that I have from [00:41:00] Ecuador that are shamanic rituals, you know, to cope with.

 but I'm just saying how much an object is telling you about, uh, society. But the, to go back to your original question about happiness, those photos reflect how we were coping. And if you kind of look at all the photos and you look at what's common here is how do I cope with this? So for some people will be like a pair of trainers to go to a for a run.

Others will be alcohol, chocolate, uh, uh, mental health medications, uh, game, uh, puzzles to, you know, to keep my mind occupied, drawing mandalas or, but it is that, that's interesting. You know, how, uh. uh. There is always something there that we're looking out for, uh, for help or to help us, uh, pass a moment in time.

Radim Malinic: Well, I missed your project during lockdown, but I'm thinking about what were my lockdown essentials. And one of them was an ironing board, not because of ironing, but because I used it as a makeshift, a laptop stand in my loft. You know, like there was nothing to, to use that. And I'm thinking M and Mss, a, Yeah.

Ironing board I, that was 

Paula Zuccotti: [00:42:00] Yeah. But how amazing. just start, you know, you can start to create, you can start something with that. What do m and msms and an iron in board have in common? 

Radim Malinic: Necessity. Yeah,  

Paula Zuccotti: could 

Radim Malinic: yeah, 

the reason why I asked you about the number of items and versus happiness, because you said, quite interestingly said, wealth. But I see it from a perspective of like, how do we find that shortcut to dopamine? Like how many people buy things for, for temporary value?

Like, you know, it's just, it's something. there. And it's usually, it's the people who have, who have got less, uh, available cash or that less, solvent, they would buy sometimes more stuff because that to them is the escapism out of the situation. Whereas, met some insanely wealthy people who very lived sort of the most minimalist life, you know, because to them the concept or there's other, other sort of personal issues behind some of this stuff, you know, and I think it's, it's, it's a way of how you working on this is there's No,

such thing as one template to decipher the humanity because it's obviously, it's the different countries, different continents, different [00:43:00] generations, all of that stuff has a different, uh, possessions and different sort of feeling, uh, how we sort of interact with it.

So. In one of your photos, you photographed your mom's, uh, possessions and you said how beautiful that was. The difference between what she used to be working in finance and now obviously she doesn't work in finance anymore and you know, she's got a rotary phone. She uses the phone to call herself on her iPhone because she loses it in the house.

 How was that, for example, for you? Because it was, you already covered, you know, the, the, the time capture for your kids when they're five and seven, you know, you, you got your husband and your friend as the sort of the initial thing, but how was the, how was the feeling was to photograph your mom's stuff to, from the feeling, like from the experience of loving her in the past when into where she's now, when you've been living in her for the last 25 years in the 

Paula Zuccotti: Yeah,

Radim Malinic: was that for you? 

Paula Zuccotti: it was super emotional. It was super emotional because I, I kind of like, so, you know, I haven't lived, well, I stopped living with my mom when I was 18, but I left Buenos Aires when I was, uh, 24 and. You know, apart from me visiting, we haven't lived in the same house together. And when we look at, when you kind of see everything like somebody's frying pan, lander, tea towels, like, it's like, I mean, she was there in every single object, you know, I photographed, but it was like opening a new, a new lens into my mom's life.

You know, seeing all her makeup lineup,  um, seeing all her cook, uh, cooking [00:44:00] utensils, the things she reads. She actually has CDs, so the CDs that she listens to. And also, you know, I photographed my mom at the age of 64 and when I, when I was living with her, she was, uh, 35, you know, and she used to wear pencil skirts and makeup and dress in, uh, you know, high-end fashion to go to, to work.

Dressing really smart. And nowadays you find her. Uh, you know, going to Pilates, uh, making birth charts and, uh, you know, it's a complete different person. Uh, not, well, it's not a different person. What I mean, her lifestyle is different and that's reflected on, on the objects. And I love her photo. I think it's a really, uh, it's a really nice way of photographing your, your loved ones, you know, by their possessions.

And I see them, you know, they're not on the photo, but one time I was on a talk and then somebody laughed and put it as a, as a hashtag or something. And I was like, they're right. I'm not, I'm not thinking about it. But I were like, here is a photo of my mom. And I started talking. People were laughing and said the front of my mom, you know, she wasn't there.

That those are her objects. Um, but that's, uh, [00:45:00] how I view it.

Radim Malinic: That's a beautiful way of encapsulating the memories and feelings, because in one of your promo videos that you created, I think it was, I think it was the cowboy who said like, you know, you can tell how people feel by everything they touch. That is so profound because when we see people on the surface level passing by public transport, you don't necessarily think about the deeper stories.

I mean. I mean, once upon a time, we used to do like coming back from a night out at five o'clock in the morning. You sit down somewhere, you know, 'cause you're tired and you're like, I wonder where that person's going. I wonder why this person's awake. I'm like, oh, they must be thinking, why the hell are you not in bed yet?

 But at least you try to get into other people's worlds because most of the time we are just, well, for most of our lives, we're just a bit worried what other people might think of us. You know, am I, wearing the right stuff? Am I doing this? And the insecurities. Whereas in your way, what was the thing that you were most surprised to learn through all of this project

Paula Zuccotti: I, I dunno if it's one thing, but I. It's, it's, it's, no, no, no, no, no. Yes. It's, it's, [00:46:00] it's everything. It's just seeing how other people live and kind of like, uh, not in a nosy way, in a, in a kind of humble way that we're all, you know, like, no, life is, no life is better than other, you know, like, no, everyone has, uh, everyone is a story.

like, like, and just to see, just to find stories in, in, in the, in the everyday, in, in, in people's lives. And the what surprised me is like when I look at the photo and I find new narratives, new ways of looking at it. So I kind of like run filters in my head, you know, like, so, and I may find that objects connect or that there is a pattern or, uh, I dunno, I get, I get excited by.

By those things. I get excited by playing, uh, saying, oh, what happens if I remove the middle line? Will that person still be showing their story or, or not? Uh, I get fascinated by asking questions that I'm not, uh, allowed to ask in any other way. You know, if you are giving me all your objects, I can straight ask you, oh, Vadim, where's this coming from?

Who bought you this? Did you buy this yourself or this coming from somewhere else? I was photographing a teacher, uh, in, in the [00:47:00] Arab border of East Jerusalem, and she, you know, she gave me the praying rug and the coffee and the cigarettes all, all together. Uh, and I, I was like, oh, what goes first? You know?

And she said, first coat, then the cigarettes and the coffee. Like, and I, and I was like, okay, why? First coat? You know, like questions like that. And then you enter a very amazing conversation with somebody about that, that probably, you know, I can't ask somebody on, on the street walking wife first, God, 

Radim Malinic: Well hang out with me for a few minutes and you will see what I do when I'm in public. But I think one of my reasons why I started podcasting in the first place, actually one of the first discoveries that I got through podcasting is how equal we are in life and creativity. Like we, we see people from, let's say, inexperienced lens thinking, oh, some people are higher, or they are further, or they're like, they're on different sort of, they're placed on the axis of life and a success differently, whereas we are all on, all on the same level playing field.

Some of us have already worked maybe a little bit further, but we are working the same access. There's no such thing [00:48:00] as app and it's a satisfying feeling to, to hear other people's stories and satisfying is the reason why, because. We, I, I, I, I personally believe like some our industry or even life is based on little bit of ego bit ambition, but then insecurity and anxiety.

You know, like we don't always have this sort of leveled. So when you actually open, open yourself to other people's stories, it makes your story feel so much more validated. 'cause you realize I'm living my life and I, you know, the more I put myself in a life of others, I get to hear more about myself.

I've got more to learn about myself. So what I want to know before I let you go is in my concept of daring creativity, daring forever. It's a project that. I think you would regret never starting because it's, it, it's, it's, you know, your, your life's work. I wanna know for those that might be considering something similar when they stumble over it or when they find it in their lives, like [00:49:00] how do you keep going?

How do you self-fund it? How do you prepare yourself going forward? How do you find more people? Because am I right that you're gonna be doing this for a while yet? 

Paula Zuccotti: Yes. I, I didn't think, you know, the, the first time I did it, uh, I started it like, you know, I, I told you with my first two photographs, and I was, uh, really lucky after the two photos to be talking to Penguin, uh, as a publisher. And  um, I had a meeting and uh, the project was like, oh, this is amazing, amazing.

It took a while and they rejected it. And then I had the opportunity to be talking to Penguin again six months later, and they were like. Oh, it's amazing you got a book here. But in between those two, the first time I only had two photos. So when Penguin rejected me, it was like, this is an amazing idea, but you got a concept, you don't have a book.

And I was like, okay, fine. So I went away and I was like. Why am I waiting for Penguin to tell me that I can, I can, I can do this project. So I was like, this is actually the kick that I needed. Why, why am I waiting? I waited six months, you know, to hear that. I was like, no, I'm gonna make my own photo. [00:50:00] So then I was started to photograph, you know, like, uh, then that's when I photograph, uh, my children and I started photographing different people, uh, you know, like to not have like, you know, my, my my three.

He always, you know, like when your aunt, aunt and your grania your case study? No. You know, like I had to go wider. So by the time that I got talking to Penguin again, I had eight photos and they were like really, really strong. So I had the opportunity of publishing my first book, uh, with them. And so I kind of had a deadline.

I had like, you know, eight months to produce 60 photographs that were of a global scale, for, for the book. So my first 60 were driven by. Incredible desire to make a book, enthusiasm to find the best stories out there and the desire to make it like the most, uh, diverse and inclusive as I, as I could.

So the book could speak to, to everyone. So I kind of, the fund, the funding of my first 60 was through the book deal. So with the advance of the book, I was [00:51:00] able to, to fund it, which was an important consideration I had when I was talking to Penguin at the time, because that was essential for me to do it.

 So that's how we started. But then. After the book was got published, I carry on with my own business and then people started to contacted me because of the book. So I started to get commissions from brands. Like the one you see on my wall is another Force Co that I did. And, um, you know, started to get commissions and things to do projects related to that, or invited by on festivals around the world to photograph people.

 So while not fully funded, a lot of opportunities came, came around to be able to take my set and set up like, you know, I did Israel, I did the UAE, um, you know, or, and then whenever I was traveling somewhere for work, I will get a cheeky day at the end, what I could do, my photos. So it's always kind of like finding the way, now I got more than a hundred.

So, uh, it's always kind of like finding, uh, that, that gap. So the real photos nowadays are [00:52:00] self-funded and I'm always, uh, that's what, you know, I do. Um. As much as I, as I can. But whenever I go to a new place, I look for a story and I think it's more of a, a bit of a journalistic approach. And I, I told you, I photograph the, the hunter, the indigenous hunter, and that inspired me to now take photos of indigenous communities because of how, uh, so much wisdom is, uh, trapped in the objects that they use every day.

I also photograph in Taiwan, uh, Chinese traditional medicine person because I wanted to learn about that. And the photo is fascinating, is full of dry seahorses and totes and all the things that have to do with Chinese medicine. So, um, yes, so it is about finding ways to, to self fund very, you know, like not, not being ambitious, like I do it as I can.

Nobody's rushing me on that one. It's my, it's my own self wanting to do my. You know, research and artwork. Um, I sometimes, you know, get to do exhibitions or something, and then I will destin that towards making, uh, making those, [00:53:00] those, uh, photos.

Radim Malinic: I love what you do. I love how you do it. And I think, you know, we, we have to dig out bones from the ground to find out what ha what was happening back in the past. Whereas you're documenting everything for us. Sure. How the life works from two year olds to, you know, 90 year olds. Um, and it's fascinating, I think especially what you mentioned about the in indigenous people, like, I mean, there's so still so much unknown 

that it could be on earth 

Paula Zuccotti: Yeah. 

Radim Malinic: But 

Paula Zuccotti: You know, that, uh, to, to review a quote on that, you know, indigenous people say that the, your, you know, particularly in Latin America, uh, south American communities, that your, uh, your future is on your back and your past is on, on the front, you know, so what you carry, you know, uh, what you're, look, what look, what you're seeing is your past.

That's the only thing that you can see. And what you have behind is the future. That is what you cannot see. So I 

Radim Malinic: wow. 

Paula Zuccotti: Yeah. That in objects

through that 

Radim Malinic: I like it. I like it a lot. So, parting question, 

Paula Zuccotti: Yes.

Radim Malinic: is there a person that you wish you have documented their lives 

Paula Zuccotti: Well, actually, actually, my, my grandmothers could have been, uh, could [00:54:00] have been good ones because I would have learned, uh, a lot through them. And I actually, I don't think I just because of fact of moving countries and then not being around, you know, like they passed away more than 20 years ago. I, yeah, I don't have the things, I don't have.

Stuff. I have the memory, which is more valuable than, than anything. And I'm not losing that. But it will be good to have had that story.

Radim Malinic: What a beautiful answer. What a beautiful answer, because I was thinking, is there someone famous? No, it's the grandma. 

Paula Zuccotti: Yeah. 

Radim Malinic: Paula, thank you very much for your time today. I mean, what a beautiful story. I, I find it fascinating. Uh, I got to know mostly learn about your world recently, and I can't wait to see what else you produce.

I'm, I'm fascinated by indi Indigenous people. This is going places and I'm so excited for you because it's informed how you live, how you work, and what you bring into the world, and it's, it's singular, it's unique, and I celebrate you for that. 

Paula Zuccotti: I thank you so much. I mean, I really, I'm really grateful for the opportunity of, uh, talking to you and also, uh, your questions got me thinking about, uh, new, new [00:55:00] answers, new stuff. And, you know, you also connected dots for me that I haven't seen. So I'm really grateful for this.

Radim Malinic: Fascinating. Well, thank you so much. Thank you. 

Paula Zuccotti: You're welcome.

 Thank you for listening to this episode of Daring Creativity Podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions, and suggestions, so please get in touch via the show notes. So please get in touch via the email, in the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me. Radim Malinic.

The audio production was done by Neil Mackay from 7 million Bucks Podcast. Thank you and I hope to see you on the next episode. [00:56:00]