Rachel Gogel, an independent design executive and "devoted generalist," shares her journey from GQ and Facebook to creating her own fractional leadership consultancy. Operating at the intersection of brand, culture, and technology, she works with organizations like Airbnb and Intuit while teaching at California College of the Arts.

Her career philosophy centers on designing your own path without permission—starting when she unexpectedly became a people manager at GQ in her early twenties. 

Rachel redefines success as a harmonious blend of consulting, mentoring, teaching, speaking, and advocacy—deliberately remaining small while creating meaningful impact. Drawing on experiences with chronic health conditions and loss, she advocates for conscious time design and questions the "FIRE" mentality, reminding us that time itself is a luxury we shouldn't take for granted.

Key Takeaways

• Generalists belong in the creative landscape — The ability to adapt, work across mediums, and jump between projects at various altitudes represents uniquely human capabilities that AI cannot replicate
• Conviction matters more than specialization — In rapidly changing creative industries, having strong principles and adaptability is more valuable than being pigeonholed into a single discipline or title
• Embrace discomfort as a catalyst for growth — The messiest moments and most uncomfortable situations often become the foundation for the greatest career breakthroughs and learning experiences
• Relationships are your greatest asset — Every major opportunity comes through genuine connections built on generosity, empathy, and helping others succeed without expecting immediate returns
• Design your career without waiting for permission — You don't need validation from institutions or traditional career paths; you can package your unique skills and create your own professional identity
• Success doesn't require scaling up — Growth doesn't always mean expansion; you can be a successful solopreneur by remaining intentionally small and defining success on your own terms
• Practice conscious time design — Regularly audit where your time and energy go; ensure you're investing in work that aligns with your values, impact goals, and desired lifestyle
• Remember that time is a luxury — Don't defer meaningful work or authentic living to some distant future; be present and intentional with how you spend your finite time on this planet
• Money and meaning don't have to be mutually exclusive — Challenge the false dichotomy between financial stability and creating meaningful work; both are possible with intentional career design
• Share knowledge and lift others up — Transparency about money, opportunities, and career paths creates community strength and often returns to benefit you in unexpected ways

Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic

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[00:00:00] 

Rachel: It's really has been an unlock. I mean, so much so that even in my fractional practice, oftentimes in my proposal, I talk about how I can help a company go through change, but then. help them hire my full-time replacement at the end, which I'm not a recruiter, but I recognize that I am connected to a lot of people and if I help spread the word or can help a fellow, creative leader get a, get a full-time job, great.

And that I can be involved in the process and even help them, you know, get onboarded and train them. And then it's kind of a win, win win. Like company gets a new full-time person I can help kind of pass the baton, and then this new person, could get a job. I try to find ways to help [00:01:00] others. Welcome to the Daring Creativity Podcast, a show about daring to forever explore creativity that isn't about chasing shiny perfection. It's about showing up with all your doubts and imperfections and making them count. It's about becoming more of who you already are. My name is Radim Malinic I'm a designer, author, and eternally curious human being.

 I am talking to a broad range of guests who share their stories of small actions that sparked lifetime discoveries, taking one step towards the thing that made them feel most alive. 

 Let me begin this episode with a question. Are you ready to discover what happens when you dare to create? Today I'm speaking for Rachel Gogel, an [00:02:00] independent design executive and devoted generalist who's built her career on embracing discomfort, creating her own path. Without waiting for permission, Rachel shares with me why having conviction is far more important than specializing in the world.

Focus on niches. She explains how building real relationships through generosity has been her biggest career She talks about how facing health challenges and loss made her realize that time is precious.

Rachel has redefined what success means to her by choosing to keep her practice small blending consulting, teaching, mentoring, advocacy with focus on impact, meaning, and empathy.

It's my pleasure to share with you my conversation with Rachel Gal. I. 

Radim: Hey Rachel, it's

great to see you. How are you doing? 

Rachel: doing? Hey, I am so glad to see you. I'm doing well, thanks. Thanks for having me.

Radim: you call [00:03:00] yourself a devoted generalist, and when I heard you saying this, I was like, we gonna have a good conversation. I'm looking forward to what's gonna happen in the next hour. But for those who don't know Rachel Gogel, who are you? What do you do?

Rachel: I am an independent design executive and a creative director. I'm currently based in San Francisco, but I am moving back to Paris, it's actually my hometown. I grew up in Paris, France, but I've been, living in the US now for 20 odd years.

Rachel: so my entire adult life has been in the us in my, my career. for the last five years I've been running my own solo consultancy, and I've been during that time collaborating with a lot of, global organizations, in, what we call, or some people call a fractional leadership capacity. 

 I tend to steer, a lot of strategic change at the intersection of brand culture and technology. but I've [00:04:00] worked with bigger companies like Airbnb or Dropbox, and most recently Intuit, and then a lot of several women founded ventures. so smaller organizations you may have not heard of but should look into like chicken and egg films or a new.

Which is a social impact incubator in New York that just opened. and then, yeah, before starting my own business, I built a lot of multidisciplinary creative teams at companies like gq, New York Times, the Facebook app. So lots of bigger companies working in-house. And then if I'm not working, in, in the kind of design practice, I also teach, and I've been teaching the last few years at the California College of the Arts in San Francisco.

Rachel: when I lived in New York, I, taught at SVA and then if I'm not teaching, I devote a lot of time to mentorship, to speaking engagements, lot of volunteer opportunities, mostly [00:05:00] in, design initiatives, across the board. But I'm a fierce advocate for marginalized voices in the industry.

I try to devote a lot of time to that. So when you, when you talk about being a generalist, I potentially am that definition since say, my career is really built of all of these activities I just mentioned. So consulting, speaking, teaching, mentorship, volunteering, and just trying to get, figure out where my time goes and, and use it as intentionally as possible, I guess

Radim: I just love the fact that you do so many different things. They're all connected, but they are so wonderfully eclectic in a way that, they're still, the creativity is there through and through and there's no, the purpose is there through and through. 

 And I think the term of devote generalist definitely works really well.

Radim: 

Rachel: I will say that term is, I can't take credit for it. Elizabeth Gpe definitely came up with that term and I have reclaimed it 'cause I thought it was brilliant. but yeah, I, the devoted, generalist thing is, is very real and I [00:06:00] just wanted to give her credit where it's to,

Radim: it's really interesting because 

 I wanna be really clear about the fact like you can, you can be led to think that the world is telling you to find your niche and you can let the world tell you that you need to be specialist in certain way. But ultimately, if you've got this unrivaled curiosity for life and creativity, it's your, it's really your call, right? It's not, it's not because the world tells you to be specialist, that you have to be one because you really want to be one. And, and equally generalist, you don't really make a generalist just because you tell them be interested in everything because it just comes from the soul.

Rachel: I have always been a generalist, and I do think that both specialists and generalists belong. And there are moments when you're working where you need one or the other. So I think we can coexist. but I hear you. I, I notice a lot of noise around this, this idea that you, should be one or the other and that will make you more successful.

Rachel: I'm also [00:07:00] seeing, I think with the rise of ai, tools, just a lot of narrative around, again, like devoting more time towards one or the other, and that will help you overcome or stay relevant. So I think being a generalist is actually a great thing. I mean, I know I'm biased because I am one, but generally, that idea of being able to dip your toes and often being kind of agnostic to the medium or being able to jump into different projects at various altitudes, I think is a way to lean into those uniquely human capabilities and to continue experimenting and trying different things.

And it helps you not stay too narrow in one in one space. So I'm attracted to that path. I know it's not for everyone, but, I'm a big fan of, of it and I'm living proof that it's possible. And so are you?

Radim: I feel like being a generalist is almost like being a micro specialist in 25 different things.

 you, find that [00:08:00] sort of hyper focus in this thing, I'm gonna do this well and I'm gonna do this because, 

 one of the things that you say, you say that we need more conviction and a little bit less specialization ' cause it is about conviction, right?

Rachel: it is. And I do think adaptability and the ability to just be open to change and trying different things. I think even in a survey that A IGA put out maybe a few years ago, this was pre pandemic, but it suggested that being able to adapt to technological and social change is one of the most critical skills to have in the future.

 And that was before the AI boom. And I think it's still more relevant than ever. in terms of conviction over specialization. Yes, I. started my career post internet and email boom and watched so much technological change at a pace that I can't even describe. I mean, I, it's not like I've been working for that long, maybe, over 15 [00:09:00] years.

Rachel: And I've seen, you know, everything from the first generation of the iPhone to the iPad that was meant to penetrate the market and take over to then mobile becoming more relevant than ever. And then now, I mean, it's even hard to describe, and I live close to Silicon Valley just watching this amazing, the, AI boom kind of take shape.

and, and a lot of friends are, are part of it, and the conviction is, is real. I do think that, so I've watched titles change. Like when I started out it was, I mean you could probably relate to this. You were either a print designer or. A web designer. and that was pretty much it. Now there's more titles than I can even list, everything from Vibe Coder to, I don't know what, and titles have become so important to people, but if you strip the title away and really look at what a designer's core set of skill sets should be in today's world and [00:10:00] environment, there's so much privilege and power to what we're capable of.

Rachel: and I think some people are losing sight of that because it, there's all these trends and, social media, has obviously, become so loud that it, you can of easily can confuse what feels important. And even the term designer has, become more expansive. so many people call themselves designer now.

and so I guess I, it's just interesting to watch and. and then make sure that even when I'm in the classroom talking to students is making sure to separate what feels like noise to what really feels, important for them to feel like they can graduate and enter the, our field. and really that conviction is, is what matters, to me.

Radim: Did you mention that you speak to your students about, how to navigate the noise? I mean, that should be class on its own. 

 obviously it comes with it, [00:11:00] it's just changing so quickly and,even I have a hard time and I think that's, I guess. Acknowledging and being vulnerable and, being able to speak to my own experience and then watching how students or emerging talent are entering the field.

Rachel: And it's a very volatile market right now. It's very scary. but I do think that it's even more important right now to enter our industry. I think it's, I always have the optimistic point of view, I guess, and I, I think it's a, an amazing time to be a designer and,sometimes going back to those basics is more important.

I just gave a talk at Intuit about the art of critique and at the end of the day, what, what's interesting is I really was just grounding them in fundamental, things, around how to share and receive feedback, how to. Look at work and just really unpacking the importance of critique as a practice and grounding it in the [00:12:00] origin of critique and why critique is even part of a design practice.

And, you know, we barely even talked about ai. The, the only time AI came up was around the practice of note taking. And because I was, essentially suggesting that it's still very important to take notes, even if it's digitally, but a pen and paper. even if you're relying exactly, even if you're relying on AI to transcribe the meeting or the critique and, and summarize the key,insights that came out of that session.

How important note taking is almost as important as listening. And I mean, all again, all this to say, sometimes just going back to those basics and stepping away from the noise or the. what's entering the zeitgeist. And it, and it can get confusing, but some of those fundamentals are just, are still as important as ever.

 And I hope that that's something that our education and design education, is continuing to invest in and not getting caught [00:13:00] up in that too easily.

Radim: we have made the art of listening. Or not listening or AI listening, AI aided listening

 way too easy. And I feel like it's really causing a havoc, a critical thinking of have you got a note? Yes. Did you understand what what has been said? No. And I think it's really dangerous in a way of having all of that data that nobody almost ever reads or potentially no one even understands because what you've been describing about the students and the noise and kind of talking about the fact that there's a sort of change in volatile market by the times have never been more exciting.

It's just almost like how do you give yourself one step back and look at all of it? Because I feel like the moment we wake up, which is we get dropped on this highway at a hundred miles an hour because we are looking at our phones being like, we don't really have time to really under, sorry, I said we don't really have time. We don't give ourselves often the time to understand what is happening right now, because let's be honest. The times we live in. I mean, oh my God, [00:14:00] it looks amazing, but we barely make a sense of it sometimes.

Rachel: Yes, it's, you can easily get caught up. And, I talk about this concept of designing your time a lot, and being able to step back and reflect on where your time is going. And, it's part of my practice as an independent practitioner because time is money, essentially, but so much more. It's so much more than that.

It, it's me figuring out how I wanna build a career. and I was also dealing with a lot of health issues in 2020, unrelated to COD. And I think the weird silver lining there though was that it helped me. Set up my independent practice and think about balance and wellbeing and health, first and foremost, because if I don't have that, I, I had nothing.

Rachel: everything I described happens usually during, quote unquote business hours. it's just not what you would expect from likea nine to five job. It's me figuring out where and how to [00:15:00] spend my time.

and then also being able to live my life outside of a lot of those, activities. the comment about AI and time and noise and, I guess it's interesting 'cause what came up for me as you were talking was that I see myself as an early observer, not necessarily an ear early adopter. And what I mean by that is I.

I have always felt like I'm close to what's happening in culture. no matter you know, I mean, I live near Silicon Valley now, but I was in New York when I was working in publishing and I felt like I was close to or in the heartbeat of what was happening in publishing at the time, which was Interactive print, which now feels like an old dated thing.

But, it's when, a lot of the iPads were figuring out how to bring magazines, to life. And it can get really overwhelming when you see new things happening in culture and then you [00:16:00] figuring out where and how you wanna get involved with it. What, what is your opinion on it? how do you wanna use it?

Rachel: what is your relationship to it? I think also because I tend to, get involved with teaching initiatives, then it's, I have to develop my own opinion to then be able to figure out how to share. certain opinions or create a space to have dialogue about that topic. and so even now when am watching this new, essentially where I'm living is so close to this epicenter of the AI boom, and it can be, there's one version of this where I could be telling you I am experimenting with every tool and trying to figure out, my relationship to it.

But the reality is I only really use Claude and Perplexity and. Maybe have some, Calendly AI note integration. you mentioned granola earlier. So that piqued my interest of figuring it out 'cause I weirdly [00:17:00] heard about it this week too. and I basically, I figure out what feels right for me in the moment in time, and I read a lot.

So I kind of know the landscape and if people ask me questions about it, I can maybe share an opinion. But I am, I'm really being, I guess I'm trying to be thoughtful around how much time to kind of like lean and devote to it because I have so many other things that I wanna spend time on and you can easily get caught up in it.

And, and at least as a solopreneur, I've really seen AI as a collaborator, in many ways. But,I'm really conscious even of the environmental impact of ai. I've really tried to think about. how these technologies are impacting just like the world around me. So,I guess for me, AI is really just another instrument in our expanding toolkit for creative empowerment.

And I figure out kind of what works for me and then go from there. And I guess I try and [00:18:00] encourage others to do the same. 

 you said something that actually really got me interested, you said. I, I just decide where and how I get involved 

Radim: what is your

process

of actually,

stepping back and not let the sort of mass uninformed hysteria of the, uh, early adopters? No wash over you.

Rachel: I think it's an exciting time. I think it can also be a dangerous time if you're not careful. And, yes, it can definitely become overwhelming for many. So,would encourage anyone listening to just figure out just what works for them and to not feel like they have to be fluent in everything that's going on.

First of all, that's not possible. And second of all,it's not going anywhere. I mean, AI is, UBI is becoming ubiquitous. It's in almost, it's going to become part of everything or a lot of the things that we touch. And,while it may be de democratizing some outputs in our industry, developing discernment through [00:19:00] practice failure, those are the things that remain uniquely human.

And so I don't think it's democratizing tastes, it's not democratizing, the right sensibilities as creatives. and I think so many. Things like I, I know taste tends to come up, but storytelling chops, a lot of craft,it's gonna become more and more vital. but it's always been important.

It's not like it's suddenly more important. It's just remembering what's important and, making sure that you understand the creative currency of the future. and, and then just take a breather. sometimes it feels like there's, it's happening so quickly now that it, it, it, you're on like a really fast train and it's hard to get off.

I would encourage people to, to get off the train once in a while. 

Radim: it's an important thought sometimes when you're on that train and it's moving fast and you feel comfortable,

 you thinking, stay for a bit longer. 'cause one of your mantras that you do and one of the things that you, actually [00:20:00] speak loudly about the fact is that you embrace the discomfort.

you're likethe messy process. And I think when you think about it, AI is exactly the opposite. Embrace, easy, embrace. No, I mean.

 It can be messy prompting, but how messy is ai? and as on a surface level.

so

 embracing discomfort, it's not for many people to say out loud that that's what they actually do and, metabolize it.

So in your processes, when you move to Facebookhow did you manage it? How did you navigate it?

Rachel: well, it's worth noting that I was given a chance early on to become a people manager when I was in my early twenties, and, it was at my dream job. I was at gq, they were freelance client and someone gave me this opportunity. the first day my boss told me he had given his two weeks notice.

Rachel: so this concept of discomfort for me started early because I, [00:21:00] it came out of necessity. I had never managed a team before, let alone a team of people who were older than me and more experience than me, technically on paper. And I wanted, I just, had to figure it out. I asked questions. I acknowledged when I didn't know the answer.

I,went on a listening tour talking to people, and, spending time with them, building trust, building relationships. And, I didn't necessarily get that advice from someone. but I, I guess I just leaned into this pretty awkward situation and I managed to survive two different publishers.

And got promoted a few times. It was, it was a wild time. But I guess those lessons early on then helped me navigate different big, seismic changes in culture or at companies. And [00:22:00] maybe I'm drawn to them is if I look back, I guess I, most people think that I would leave jobs or situations when things, people would be like, why are you rocking the boat?

things are good for you. And my answer was like, I don't know, it's just a feeling like it's too easy or I, feel like I, I wanna keep building. I, I like getting my hands dirty. and that's kind of what drew me to each role after that was like, something didn't exist or something was broken. And I really enjoy that messy process.

So I guess that discomfort inherently is. Embedded in those situations and it, it, I did not do it on purpose, but if I, if I look back, there's clearly a pattern in my trajectory.

Radim: That's interesting that you said that you got this role that it was, or originally a freelance client and you stepped into a, people management. That's a young age to be leading people who are older than you. Did you have [00:23:00] any prior data points, life experiences and your role models, or was it really just the sort of sink or swim moment?

Rachel: yeah, no, it was, I mean, I graduated college during a recession in the us I couldn't get a job. I started interning and then I finally got my foot in the door for, as a junior designer at a magazine called Travel and Leisure. So I was on a, you're maybe a more common path of starting through the motions.

And then because it was a recession, I had a hard time getting a job. I started freelancing really early and maybe that helped me develop certain skills really early on, like recognizing my own value, negotiating rates, building client relationships, kind of navigating my own time. but in terms of people management, like I had never had any, roles like that before.

And so I guess in terms of modeling [00:24:00] behaviors that maybe I had experienced before, I mean, I really barely had had any jobs. I had some internships, I will say throughout college. So I was exposed to other people, leaders and probably subconsciously, took notes of, certain leaders that I respected and then wanted to emulate their behaviors when I got that job.

but yeah, I was in my, I was maybe like 21 or 22, and I was really scared. I, I mean that GQ was honestly my dream magazine and I got this associate art director job and I was barely getting started in my career and they took a big chance on me, and I'll always be grateful for that.

Rachel: and it really, that's really, I think when I think about my career, that put me on a, a faster track than maybe, had I gone a diff in a different direction.

Radim: What was the draw for gq? What was the draw? If editorial why magazines?

Rachel: I [00:25:00] loved collecting print ephemera. I loved collaging a lot in high school and college. so mixed media, collage, print, ephemera. maybe again, like I was, I was less appreciative of growing up in Paris when I was younger. I,have a lot more, gratitude towards that moment in time, but be even being surrounded by art and architecture and, being able to develop certain design sensibilities maybe early on.

So I always, I would buy magazines. I had the privilege of, of traveling a little bit growing up due to my dad's job. And, I would always buy magazines for the flight. And so just generally was surrounded by magazines. And I, GQ specifically stood out to me because I loved the writing and the, design, DNA, that specifically Fred Woodward had injected in magazines during that moment in time.

 And he brought a lot of [00:26:00] his rolling stone. DNA two gq, and it was just fun and different and there were infographics and it was, I don't know. So ironically, so I never ended up actually working for Fred. He was there at that time, but I joined the marketing side of the magazine and I, so I ended up, kind of overseeing the marketing art department.

 But what was great was me trying to figure out how to build trust with the newsroom or with, with the editorial side. And because of everything that was happening with the emergence of certain technologies, I was trying, I would try to figure out what was happening with, again, at the time it was the iPad or even augmented reality.

And then would try to figure out how to make sure that GQ could. Stay on the forefront of innovation. It had already, it already had that reputation, but I was trying to uphold it. And I don't know, maybe because I was a bit younger [00:27:00] and curious and I tried to shake things up a little bit and really be a bridge between editorial and marketing, which if you remember that moment in time, it was very church and state, they would barely talk to each other.

So that was definitely something I was trying, trying to do. So yeah, gq, just the design and the approach, it really attracted me there. And, and that was my dream for a while and I'm so grateful. But eventually, I think I just, I created a new dream and had new goals and it helped me figure out kind of a, a certain path that took me on a really fun journey.

After that.

Radim: I mean, let's talk about our journey. I mean, before we do, you just reminded me of the fact when you say, I used to buy magazines for travel, and it was not actually, it was not uncommon to buy six, seven magazines like, just to buy a stack of magazines. And I, I haven't thought about it for 20 years,

Rachel: And then you'd leave it, right? You'd like leave it on the plane for the next person to maybe 

 read. 

Radim: they fall out, you put 'em in your bag, they come out, they just, because they're all like, they all spot UV gloss, [00:28:00] finished that. They're just little glide and stuff.

But,

 yeah. Let's, let's talk about what happened next because obviously you, you got exposed at quite young age to obviously big companies, big corporations, big operations, and big teams.

Obviously you picked up on a culture, you picked up on design, you picked up on a technology. And, I think what we should

Talk about is the fact that

Radim: you believe that you don't really need permission to design your career because you can do it yourself. Because five years ago you went to start your own, 

 solo consultancy and

you, I think,

what I'm picking up on

their

lives has been very exciting because you can really do things

to work with

Your diversity generalists.

and 

curious spirit.

in the way of helping, companies to do all sorts of different things. So

 on that way of

understanding

culture and embracing

discomfort and leading with compassion,

how did you, see that

when

you've realized that moment

that you

can put

all of this together 

and take it to the world 

Rachel: and create something, which is, in my opinion, almost quite unique 

Radim: set of skills together.

Rachel: Yeah, it's definitely a [00:29:00] mix of,publishing, social media. definitely bounced around even with some of my freelance clients across a few different industries. it's interesting because there were definitely moments even since college where I would ask myself, is this the right time?

am I, am I ready to, to do my own thing? I think I've always had a, an entrepreneurial spirit, so it's some, it's something that's always been in the back of my mind. And then it was a question of. Time. and so when I left college, I had that moment and I couldn't get a job. I said that, there was a recession, so I started freelancing, which in and of itself meant that I was technically, my own boss and trying to figure out where I wanted to spend my time and how I wanted to, build this freelance practice.

At least when I first got started. Then I ended up getting full-time roles and, what was interesting with just how I got started was the fact that, oh, if I can have a full-time job, [00:30:00] maybe I can also squeeze in a freelance thing here and there and still keep that going, and then keep developing relationships, whether I'm working at a company or, getting involved with, with passion projects on the side.

 And so I. It kind of became part of my, and again, these were my early twenties, but I would have a full-time job and then I would maybe take on one, one project once in a while, mostly, whether that was a book cover design or a, a poster for an independent film. And I would find myself attracted to certain kinds of projects, and it was, it was fun, but I would obviously be thoughtful about where and how my time was going.

And a lot of those full-time jobs did require a lot of time, especially because most often it almost felt like I was joining companies that were building something new. And so the, it was almost like a startup within a legacy company. and I would be involved as a founding [00:31:00] creative director at that moment in time.

Rachel: when I. Started to feel like I wanted something different. So after gq, I went to the New York Times, and again, such a privilege and I learned so, so much. And that was the boom of native advertising or branded content. And I think that was a mix of, having been in New York for a while, and then asking myself, if I went out on my own now, would I just be known for doing publishing?

Like I would only get projects within publishing or magazines, and how would I feel about that if I, if I did that? And so when the Facebook gig came up, I then thought to myself, well, maybe it's worth trying trying something else. what if I get, I get put in this tech environment and it's a whole new industry.

I would meet people, I would move to California. And maybe that will expose and help me [00:32:00] kind of round out certain skill sets. I guess I, I guess I, I think I, I had a fear that I would be pigeonholed into one kind of industry if I, if I left the times at that moment in time and started my own thing. So I did that.

So there were these like moments throughout my career where I would ask myself, is this the right time? Is this the right time? And so I guess it took a few more years. I was at Facebook for a few years and then I wanted to try agency side, so I went to a small design studio called God Food Out Partners.

And that was great for different reasons. And then COVID hit, which, I'm sure some people would not recommend starting a business, peak Pandemic, but I mentioned earlier I had some health stuff come up and I think between some of the health stuff. COVID as the backdrop. And then,you know what, the real story is that I got a job at Netflix.

No, not many people know this, but it's a fun story. I was recruited at Netflix around the time that I then ended up starting my own thing. [00:33:00] And right before I was going to start my job was, kind of imploded. My would've been boss got fired. she wrote me a message saying, don't worry, your job is safe.

I'm really sorry we never got to work together. And then I talked to hr and then they basically said, don't worry, your job is safe, but your job is now this. And they basically had demoted the role and changed the setup. And by this time I had already gone through interviews and negotiated. I even signed.

 An offer letter. So technically I was a Netflix employee, I just hadn't started yet. long story short, I was like, look, this is not the job that I signed up for. You know that I know that. So like, I don't think this is right anymore. And I, I negotiated a severance because technically I was an employee and I ended up using that money as like basically it gave me a safety net to finally go out and do my own thing.

So the joke amongst friends is that, Netflix [00:34:00] technically gave me seed money to start my own business. 

Radim: you said it a few times throughout your answer, but you said, am I ready? Am I ready?

And I love, I love hearing this because there are some people who will always push that day to another day because they don't want to be ready. Whereas I think there's a collective mindset of people who are striving, like, when will I work with bigger clients?

When will I take on something bigger? When will I do this? And I think that's a signal of that healthy hunger of I know I am destined to do something bigger, better, more fulfilling. So every time he said it, like, am I ready? I was like. This is a good sign and thanks for the exclusive, if Netflix actually, you know,funded your, your business, that's even for the better because I mean, the things you've been doing and, and the way you do it, I think it's again, I've said it before, it's so unique because as you said, you work between brown culture and tech and this is exactly the moments that, we've been piecing together these doors that we've been joining because the way you do [00:35:00] it, yes.

You didn't want to be just an editorial designer or be someone coming from, from that side of things. So having those. extra pieces of your armory, your skillset, your arsenal being put put

together.

I think is fantastic.

 So

 having

started on your own, having been doing your thing,

 I

know that a lot

of things that you've created for yourself is

based on relationships you've been Very much

a, a purveyor of

 getting out there

getting to know people, connecting with people, and actually be out there and actually be, be

known. because

 the more I

think about it, Yes, you were questioning yourself,

Am I ready? Am I ready? But you've been making connections throughout all of, most of your work in life, which

sometimes

it doesn't

matter.

What you do is ally what matters. the people know you, who you are as a person,

and the person that you know can actually understand what you can offer rather than just being skilled and build very

skill skillful in what you do. How

would you say the power of relationships changed your.

seed money from [00:36:00] Netflix into a business?

Rachel: it's a great question. I, what first came to mind was that early in my career, as I mentioned, when I ended up at gq, which, the only reason I even got that freelance job in the first place was because of an internship from the previous summer, at Conde Nast. And those relationships obviously changed my entire trajectory.

But because I started that job earlier, what was interesting was then I started getting emails or people at basically asking me for, do you know other people who are like you? Who, who could join our team? And and there was an influx of, requests. And I immediately had the, impulse to start a MailChimp newsletter that.

 I know this is gonna sound unoriginal, but it was called Creative Jobs, the list. And it was my way to essentially remove myself from the equation. And if people wanted to [00:37:00] get access to my network and the types of jobs that I was hearing about, that I would, there was not really a calendar cadence, it was just very natural.

I would, people would send me job descriptions, a title and a direct email address, and I would put together a list of these jobs and then send it to my friends. And it was all word of mouth. So the only way to subscribe was if you had the link and then people would share it with other people.

and then so organically it grew just to a few thousand subscribers. And I did not realize how much this would impact my community or network because I wasn't charging for this. There was no ego attached to it. I truly just wanted to, I don't know, I guess connect people and help people get jobs.

And again, as I said, it was a rough time because of the recession and people were eager to enter. Specifically, most of the jobs were within publishing, but they were kind of adjacent jobs as well. And even I got [00:38:00] interviews through it just because I would then meet people and then they would ask me questions and I ran that my entire time.

I was in New York up until 2016 and I moved to California. And I, little did, I know that that would actually be a big. devoting time to doing that then completely expanded my own community and people that I knew so much. So that one person that was a subscriber of that ended up working at Facebook years later, and he was the one who referred me for the job that I got at Facebook.

Rachel: so again, karma, I'm a big believer in karma related to relationships and really approaching them with kind of genuine, empathy and curiosity and really just trying to help others because you really never know. And it really has served me every job that I have had truly has been through relationships, whether that's a former colleague, [00:39:00] someone I met for coffee, I guess at this point in my career, maybe some referrals.

So someone who then, shares my information and what I do. And it really, I would say out of anything or any advice I would give to anyone is just making more time for relationships. And almost back to this idea that, that it's so noisy right now that people are, spending a lot of times on their phones or like,getting distracted really easily.

Just remember, again, some of the basics, which is just the more you're able to spend time towards building relationships and trust it really, can change your life. And I have seen that happen for me. And so by the time I went out on my own, my network, it just felt very organic and I was just catching up with people and then somehow, you know, that would plant a seed about a role or something like that.

it, I feel very lucky in that sense, but [00:40:00] it. It's not just luck, it is definitely time spent towards, nurturing and fostering relationships. so yeah,

Radim: what you beautifully described about building your network and creating this, this newsletter. It's, it's generosity and kindness. I think we, we've been. Seeing the, the change of community or following of like,Hey look, this is what I do and you can jump on. No, you can jump on and see me doing, doing what I'm doing.

Whereas when you reverse that process and say, Hey look, I'm here for you. How can I do this? there's one of my previous guest, Vicky Ross, is very famous.

for, just for, you know,showcasing others, lifting others up. And guess who gets the no, who gets referrals? Vicky Ross. Because she's actually sharing the kindness, sharing generosity, like actually being there for others. And this is the true meaning of community because in the age of self now we can see following as something which is quite not quite selfish in a, in a way. Like,Hey, [00:41:00] 

I'm doing this and What are potentially, what are people's intentions? You

know, like You

can have

random

tips and tricks

about branding,

There's five a minute or LinkedIn, whatever,

but Just showing generosity,

It just changes everything

And, and

and it's, again, it's a beautiful testament to what you said that most of the

things that you've, you've, been doing, like the referrals, the jobs, the commissions

 are from

 this connections, these

connections because

 how many code emails

land in

everyone's inbox every day going, Hey, team, this is what I can do. Like, it just feels really, really

sad. but

 it kind of takes us back to

 the thing

like you don't need permission to design your career but you can definitely need your accountability and focus to design your career because you can really do it. especially if you see normal almost selflessly. Because, scarcity mindset is, is complicated for many of us. But it's like, how do you let go and say, you know what? I don't care necessarily if I'm, if I'm winning today, but I wanna make my friends or my, my networks who win fast.

Rachel: [00:42:00] Yeah, it's, it's huge. It's really has been an unlock. I mean, so much so that even in my fractional practice, oftentimes in my proposal, I talk about how I can help a company go through change, but then. help them hire my full-time replacement at the end, which I'm not a recruiter, but I recognize that I am connected to a lot of people and if I help spread the word or can help a fellow, creative leader get a, get a full-time job, great.

And that I can be involved in the process and even help them, you know, get onboarded and train them. And then it's kind of a win, win win. Like company gets a new full-time person I can help kind of pass the baton, and then this new person, could get a job. And so I guess even though I don't run that newsletter anymore, I try to find ways to help others.

Again, this was not, it's not done in such a way [00:43:00] that it, yeah, I mean, I guess like it really is something that I, it's come so natural to me to help others that I don't even, honestly, I don't even think about it. so whether it's part of my fractional practice or, I do a lot of mentorship or o my calendar's pretty much open to anyone who wants to, ask me questions.

And I talk a lot about money actually. I talk a lot about, salary transparency and how much money I make per year and how I made it, and I publish that on LinkedIn. and so again, like, I guess part of that is because I wanna just expose,how I run my business, hoping that someone could then maybe make more money than they did before.

And so knowledge or sharing knowledge, I guess is another way that I try to, to maybe help the community, because if I can help others, then also, it comes back around. I also for [00:44:00] a long time, every year would, design my own, like holiday card and then I would write like handwritten notes.

And again, that was my way of just staying in touch with people. And I would send those to family and friends, but also clients. And, how rare is it to get a piece of mail that you actually is not a bill, or some reminder to, to do something. And, I have kept that up actually this year, maybe because of my upcoming move is the only year.

I haven't planned for that just yet, but I am planning to create one once we move so I can let people know that we moved. but yeah, I've kept it up and those are people still talk about the newsletter or the holiday cards that they get and, so yeah, finding your thing I guess is important and, and how, how you want to make time for relationship building.

And, it is something that again, takes time and, the more time you invest in it [00:45:00] and put care and I guess kindness and really just also listen and share knowledge. I do think that, than ever, I think it's important right now to acknowledge like how important genuine connections can be

Radim: what you mentioned about money was really interesting because it made me think of your definition of success and. I was getting ready for this conversation by listening to your talk from, design Thinkers, RGD, and this was the first time that someone has defined success in the most succinct and most impactful way I've ever seen it or I've ever heard it.

Because the way you've described it, for some people, success is a word. Some success is money. For some people, sometimes money is everything for some people. And I always think about what does success mean to me and what does success mean to other people, and what is the general idea? And the way you summarized it was beautiful sort of diagram [00:46:00] of five different things that sort oflead into one another.

And you talked about remaining small and necessarily not caring about money, just being able to do all of these different things. So what does success mean to you?

Rachel: thank you for saying that. I mean, for me, success really truly manifests as this harmonious blend, what you know, what you're referring to. So if I'm able to consult, mentor, teach, speak, and then spend a good amount of time for advocacy, which oftentimes is embedded in a lot of these other things I just mentioned, then it allows me to.

Spread optimism and then create impact while making a living. So it's what's been interesting is I, no longer think about climbing the corporate ladder. I really think about success as to your point, not necessarily scaling up. And that growth doesn't [00:47:00] always mean expansion. Like I can be a successful solopreneur and kind of define what those rules should look like.

So I'm very selective in where and how my time is spent. And I think obviously I can't ignore, I live in one of the most expensive cities in the world and my wife is also self-employed and a comics creator and works with a lot of nonprofits. Like we, we make it work. But, we're moving to Paris where we're hoping there's a slightly lower cost of living, but that we can still have, different, different types of work and clients and really figure out a certain lifestyle that.

Would make both of us happy. And so I, I guess I'm trying to, the reason why I talk about this on stage, or even in, some articles sometimes is I try to, I don't know, I guess poke holes in these older models and definitions where, especially in America, I think bigger is always better. And, for [00:48:00] me, when I have conversations, most hon honestly, even today, like near Silicon Valley, there's usually this conversation between that, that people can't have that they can't have financial stability and feel like they are spending time creating meaningful work.

Like it has to be one or the other. And oftentimes it's not something that they're, like they're not getting fulfillment or feel like their work has meaning and being able to support their lifestyle. so again, I, for me, it's, it's really poking holes in that, in that model.

And I don't know, maybe it's because I'm Parisian and grew up in Europe and there's this thing in me about, that work isn't everything and that, that whole thing of like work to live or live to work. And for me it really has always been about, finding just the right balance between, I am a [00:49:00] very ambitious person.

Like I, I have a strong work ethic. If I go hard on projects, maybe I go hard for a few months, but then I also make time for recharge and rest and recovery. And that both of those things are important to me. And, just, just look, my definition of success could evolve over time, but that is how I.

Define it right now. And, it really is in terms of, I dunno how to describe this, but, I guess it's about impact 

 figuring out what has meaning and then continuing to reflect on if the things that I'm doing are meeting those goals. yeah.

Radim: Yeah, I think it's interesting you said I'm poking holes in that concept because. You and I are both proves that you can do whatever you want, make it work.

 It's not always pretty, but it, it always works. And it's just like as long as you go and really follow the end of the journey or or the next

Checkpoint, you'll get

there 

because [00:50:00] the way you describe it, your success and the way describing what you do is,

comes from really much a deep place of empathy. And 

that's not always

 present.

people who are

thinking

that

they can't do one or the other, or that's for financial success is one thing, and therefore they sacrifice in their values if they have any, they're just going after it from a Muslim materialistic

perspective. Whereas

 what you decided to do or what you doing and

was to living proof that you can be 

person

of

 with multifaceted interest? multifaceted output, 

 and Putting it out there.

with generosity, kindness, and empathy because

you actually care about what you do.

And I think

 That's what I find your definition of success. So

refreshing because. both sides of

the pond or wherever, success is

Almost like

 one

dimensional because it's like what is it that success.

means? And usually it's money and how much, for some, 

 being able to wake up and just say, look, I'm gonna draw Swan and that's what I'm gonna do today. That's a success. that's, that's for us. you [00:51:00] can, we can do things that are almost challenging, the conformity of a normal perception of what success can be.

Rachel: Yeah, I, it's interesting. I, I think, we all experienced this big collective traumatic moment five years ago, and I think, people are now, we, we've now had five years and there's almost like people are kind of reverting back to. times before then, almost like blocking out how traumatic that was, and then approaching how they spend their time a certain way and taking things for granted.

 And, again, I've referred to having health issues. I, I kind of have a chronic health conditions now, but, I have experienced a lot of loss, like death in the family and close friends. I have had my own health issues, like some scary traumatic things. And I guess I'm just very conscious of my time on the planet.

And I don't mean [00:52:00] to sound like, everyone should be thinking this way. Like,seize the day, make sure that you're spending all time on the right things. I, that's not my point. But I do think that, spending more time on like deep reflection work, pausing more, listening more.

 Asking yourself if you're spending time on the right things. And again, you don't have to be an independent practitioner in order to do that. I think you could, you could have a full-time job and still ask yourself if that's, something you should be doing. And I, I guess I bring this up a lot because I don't know if this concept is universal or just in the area that I live in, but there's this concept, I'm going to totally butcher what this acronym stands for, but fire, have you heard of this?

 It's like financial independence retire early. And it's, it's this concept where you like, make as much money as possible so that you can retire by your, mid forties or something. again, anyone who [00:53:00] has that goal, I will not judge you. I respect you and I have a lot of friends who like wanna live like that, but to me, when you.

When you think like that, it means that you haven't really had like a traumatic event happen to you, that you're, like, you think that you even have time to do something meaningful after your mid forties, and that that's the time when you're gonna, fulfill your mission or whatever it is. And so why wait, I guess?

 I think it comes from a, a huge place of privilege to think that you're gonna even be alive by the time you're in your mid forties. And I don't know. There's, there's something that has happened to me that I can't unsee or forget easily. And I do think that a lot of people, if they weren't directly affected by COVID, and that was obviously a big, big traumatic event and it changed a lot of people's lives, but now I'm, I'm noticing that more people are like, get just getting back to whatever quote unquote normal and forgetting that that happened.

And I, I just want people to [00:54:00] remember that. Time is a luxury and, to be, I guess just being more conscious of where your time is going and your energy is going, and make sure that you're, you're spending it on the right things because you really never know what could happen. so yeah, that's, it is just something I think about a lot, maybe more than your average person.

I don't know,

Radim: I think it's a beautiful summary of our conversation because the question that you mentioned, everyone asked that question, everyone asks themselves that question. Only the lucky ones can ask themselves that question in early thirties or forties or fifties. Some people just realized it, before it's too late. And I think being able to really

cherry.

pick the, the benefits of where we live, how we work, what we can do, the technology, the elements of understanding from culture, from, from empathy, asking for help, that's The bit where

when you realize it early. I think that's the true value of, of creative [00:55:00] work, creative careers.

Because yeah, life can be absolutely incredible if you make it happen.

 Rachel? I, I really enjoyed listening to you today, learning even more than I, I knew, and really appreciate what you do and how you do it and what you, send out into the universe in a way, how you articulate some of these things that, can surprise, educate, inform, and influence, and actually have impacts on others.

So thank you.

Rachel: thanks for having me. I really enjoyed the conversation and I'm really nervous about our move back to France, but I'm hoping that I guess things will just somehow work out and I know it's gonna take a lot of work, but, yeah, I'm really excited. So again, thanks for having me and hopefully I'll see you over there.

Radim: See you soon. Thank you.

Rachel: Bye. 

[00:56:00]