Rob Draper is an artist, designer, lettering artist, and collage maker whose career has been shaped by an extraordinary sequence of reinventions. Growing up in Worcester in the 1980s, Rob was captivated by American culture, graffiti, and the visual energy of films like E.T. and Tron. ~

That early love of making things became the thread connecting every chapter that followed — from graphic design student to art director, from redundancy to sign writing, from teaching in prisons to painting coffee cups that went viral. In this conversation, recorded live at All Flows  Festival, Rob talks about the courage it takes to start over, the strange peace that comes from creating without knowing the outcome, and why being a "creative" — without further definition — might be the most honest title of all.

Takeaways:

• There is now space to simply be a creative — no single specialisation required — as long as there is a genuine thread running through your work
• Rob's graffiti beginnings in Worcester gave him confidence, community, and a visual language that quietly shaped everything that came after
• Redundancy forced a reinvention that included sign writing, teaching, prison workshops, and eventually coffee cups painted with messages that were — by his own admission — mostly aimed at himself
• The coffee cup project was never designed to go viral; it was a shop window that became a movement, built on consistency, authenticity, and small acts of showing up
• Collage was the most controversial and most creatively liberating pivot of Rob's career — uncomfortable precisely because he couldn't predict the outcome
• Creativity served as escapism at every stage of Rob's life, in both the dark chapters and the bright ones
• Rob's approach to education is rooted in simplicity: you are on one side, your dreams are on the other, and the middle is just work
• Making universally pleasing work produces the blandest possible result — finding a specific voice and committing to it is always the better path
• The greatest insight Rob carries from his career is simply gratitude — for having creativity as a tool to process, express, and survive whatever life brings

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Rob: I don't think there was a role before that was called a creative, and I think now you can be a creative and that's enough.

If that makes sense. You don't need to say, "Oh, I specialize in illustration," or, "I specialize in Procreate," or, "I specialize in, oil painting." You can just be a creative and I think as long as there's a thread that goes through you. The challenge is always the same. The challenge is actually how you make money out of these things, isn't it?

Essentially. Do you know what I mean? But if you wanted to kind of use it as a career path, I think there has to be a thread that goes through you, whatever that is, whether you're doing a mural or whether you're, doing a painting for somebody. But it's completely changed.

Radim: Welcome to the Daring Creativity Podcast, a show about daring to forever explore creativity that isn't about chasing shiny perfection. It's about showing up with all your doubts and imperfections and making them count. It's about becoming more of who you already are. My name is Radim Malinic I'm a designer, author, and eternally curious human being.

 I am talking to a broad range of guests who share their stories of small actions that sparked lifetime discoveries, taking one step towards the thing that made them feel most alive. 

 Let me begin this episode with a question. Are you ready to discover what happens when you dare to create?

Radim: What happens when everything you've built disappears overnight and the thing that's left is the thing that you've always loved? Rob Draper has lived that question more than once. From painting graffiti in Worcester to art directing a fashion brand, to finding himself redundant, isolated, and painting messages on coffee cups that accidentally changed his life.

In our conversation, Rob talks about a Creative thread that connects every chapter. Graffiti, lettering, collage, workshop, and an honorary degree he never saw coming. We get into why finding your voice matters more than pleasing everyone, why collage terrified him, and why gratitude might be the most underrated creative tool of all.

 This episode was recorded live at the All Flows Festival in Milton Keynes, and if you're looking for tickets for next year's edition, you should, because it was a very special event.

It's my pleasure to share with you my conversation with Rob Draper Hey, Rob, welcome to Daring Creativity Podcast. How are you doing today? 

Rob: I'm good, thank you. I'm good. 

Radim: We recorded this live at All Flows Festival in Milton Keynes, and in my opinion, one of those places that's so beautifully curated as a festival because it showcases broad range of stories and also broad range of craft.

in your talk, you run through your life and your creative career, and it was a fascinating journey. for those who couldn't see your talk, tell me, who is Rob Draper? How would you introduce yourself? Who are you?

Rob: I'm an artist and designer, and have sometimes by design, sometimes not by design, found myself with a particular range of circumstances that has shaped my work and my outlook, essentially.

Radim : in your session, you mentioned that you have two dreams that you would love to achieve. Can you tell us which ones they are?

Rob: when I was young, I was desperate to design a range of BMX bikes, and I was also obsessed by American culture, and I was desperate to design for Nike. 

Radim : So for someone growing up in Worcester, 

Rob: how did you get into BMXs and American culture?

I think what happened was, just American culture in mid-'80s obviously, the films came over, music, fashion came over and, it was just so exciting. It w- didn't feel like anything else that was going on in the UK at the time.

And as a result of that, it just always stuck with me that I wanted to be part of that in some way, shape, or form. I was always artistic anyway. 

And I fell into graphic design because that made much more economical sense when I left school. and so they were always two goals of mine that were just-- I wanted t-to do.

Radim : At this stage on this show, I would normally go two steps back Let's go to the movies that you grew up with. 

Rob: E.T., Star Wars, Tron, Beach Street, all these, kind of era 

Radim : you have a sensation of the feeling seeing those movies and them having impact on you? What did it feel like?

Rob: I just 100% remember those because they were just so colorful, and they were so different, and obviously you have to look at these things in context now. and because of the internet now, you can look at anything at any point, any second across any point of the world.

But back then, that was all you had in terms of these things and seeing this other world that was going on that just didn't feel like anything that I was part of. It didn't feel like,there certainly wasn't anything like that in Worcester. 

Radim : Yeah, there wasn't anything like that in most places. now we've got the movies covered, but then BMX bikes. When did you connect the dots where you could be someone actually creating that sort of style graphics or designs in the future?

 did you know there was a pathway? Because a lot of people in our generation, they didn't even know that graphic design was a thing. You know, it was kind of almost us stumbling into something. We didn't know graphic design existed. So what was it like for you? 

 did you see a path ahead when you were growing up as a kid?

Rob: No, not in the slightest. I happened to speak about it. I've spoken about it a few times, how I wanted to do that, and I've just drawn and drawn and drawn and drawn and drawn, and putting that online and talking about it, and all of a sudden that opportunity presented itself from both a couple of different BMX companies.

 it was never that thing of, I never specifically did something to design a range of bikes or anything like that. I just put out work and talked about the fact that I'd like to do that. 

Radim : Right. Let's keep it still in the '90s and '80s for a second, because with the appeal of creativity, when you say you were artistic kid, do you remember, was it escapism? Was it a sense of expression of your soul? What did you feel when you were creating that identity that you had?

Rob: 100% escapism. And I think certainly I remember starting to paint graffiti when I was 11, 12. and again, in my early teens, it gave me adventures, it gave me confidence, it gave me a social life.

It gave me these adventures that you could never get any other way. And it was a time that when art at school wasn't particularly motivating or wasn't particularly inspiring, and so you could do this thing, and it was the most exciting thing ever, and it naturally led into graphic design.

Radim : I wanna learn about graffiti because once upon a time I was a scary tagger. You know, I had my little thing and I was really scared to do it, but I did it for a short while. But how was it for you? what was the introduction to the scene did you have mentors in graffiti?

 And how did you find out you can do it, and how did you get into it?

Rob: Well, there was a tiny scene, and pretty much if you ask most, 90% of the people who've ever painted graffiti in Certainly from that first wave in the UK, there was a book called Subway Art. and Subway Art was basically a catalog of, the New York, subway being painted, and that became like this absolute Bible to everybody.

 and that gave us these kind of weird starting points. but in Worcester it was slower to develop than obviously the bigger cities, but yeah.I always feel that with graffiti there's no rule book or style guide. How did you approach graffiti Was it a way of expression or way of artistic explorations?I never paid it the same attention as I would perhaps now, because it was more, certainly younger as well. it was just something you did with your friends, and it was adventures and all that kind of thing.

It's only, I think, as you get older you analyze it more what you were doing then, perhaps. 

Radim : So let me join the dots because I think it's the beautiful naivety in our younger selves when we don't overanalyze what we do. 

There's just this moment of now I wanna do this. I'm gonna get started and see where it takes me. In your talk, you had a slide about changing letter forms, that view and a career aspect. What's changed?

Rob: But I think, what's changed is context is everything now.

So obviously when I was painting in those days, you couldn't possibly have a career option out of it. There was no form of career or development or anything at all like that. I work with students now who want to do murals, who want to do street art, who want to do graffiti, and now there's, a thousand tutorials that explain how to do that.

And paint, and materials, and opportunities, and cities have paint festivals, and all those kind of things. So there's now opportunity for that. but certainly when I was young, None of that existed at all. So it was just something I did as a hobby and a pastime almost, if that makes sense, and, for my social life.

 but then I went down the route of graphic design, and so I parked it, and it was just something I did outside of my graphic design career. 

Radim : I think we live in a magnificent time where you can have people dreaming now at younger age about potentially being a mural artist and actually making a living out of it. Because when you describe it, at that time, it was just a hobby, right?

It was just an outlet

Rob: A hundred percent. I mean,I talk in my talk about when I left, university and was like, do I follow the career in graphic design or do I try and be an artist or anything at all like that?

And, it was quite defined then you were a graphic designer, you were an illustrator, you were a photographer, you were an artist. You can be all of those things at the same point You can be absolutely all those things. as long as there's a thread that goes through you as a creative, it just doesn't matter at all.

But back then you had to be one of those things. 

Radim : What you describe reminds me of a sentence which is normally printed across when people say, "Do one thing and do it well." When you felt like you had one thing, you had to do it well 

Because God forbid, you might actually might, you know, rock the boat and draw outside the edges. Because I think that's where the magic lies. I think we've got more perceived freedom in being able to just be more versatile, just to pursue the passions that potentially can influence our future

Rob: Work. I-- 100%. I don't think there was a role before that was called a creative, and I think now you can be a creative and that's enough.

If that makes sense. You don't need to say, "Oh, I specialize in illustration," or, "I specialize in Procreate," or, "I specialize in, oil painting." You can just be a creative and I think as long as there's a thread that goes through you. The challenge is always the same. The challenge is actually how you make money out of these things, isn't it?

Essentially. Do you know what I mean? But if you wanted to kind of use it as a career path, I think there has to be a thread that goes through you, whatever that is, whether you're doing a mural or whether you're, doing a painting for somebody. But it's completely changed.

Radim : In your session, you talked about difference between being an artist and a designer.

How would you take it from university? What did you study, and when did you go onto your first paying job? 

Rob: so I did a, like a foundation art and design course at art college.

I then went from there to do two years of graphic design. I then went from there to do three years, degree of visual communication. And so visual communication meant a bit of everything. This was mid-'90s, so I was obsessed by David Carson, and that type of,almost where type became image.

And so that was completely t-taken by that 

Radim : I guess that'd be the Design Museum 

Rob: Yeah 

Radim : absolutely. When you think about it, it was a type of a ride. It was something about the '90s which was so magnetic, right?

Rob: 100%, yeah. And it's interesting 'cause I think it's come back around now, and seeing a lot of the students' work now is referencing that.

But for me, I'd applied how I felt about graffiti, I could apply to graphic design. and it was really special to me at the time. As I say, David Carson being a good example, Tomato being another one. of these people who were kind of using type as image and really trying to push the boundaries of what communication was.

and as a student, that was the most incredible thing. So I ended up i- within magazine design as a result of 

that.

Radim: I

Radim : So after your studies, did you work in retail as a designer? Have I got that right?

Rob: No, the last role I found myself in was I was an art-- Before I became freelance, was I was art director of a fashion brand, What did that feel like at the time? Because the imagery that you showcased in your talk were very of that time. It felt like the creativity was liberated. it felt like kind of anything goes, right?It was great. I found it great because I was very, very lucky that I had a boss who was supportive of me. a boss who was like, "If you've tried something and it was cool," he was like, "Yeah, let's go with that." and I think that can make a massive amount of difference.

I think it helped the brand itself was quite, open to creativity, and so as a result of that, you could just try anything, and he would give me, a lot of creative freedom to do that. Which is why it felt so difficult when I got made redundant because I felt like I'd worked and worked and worked and got my dream job.

It was doing everything I needed it to do. I could, jump onto layout stuff and be digital if I wanted to, or I could go and paint walls at a shop fitting at the other end of the country if I wanted to. So 

Radim : So for the context of the listeners who haven't seen the talk, you mentioned the fact that the company was bought out and you were promised to be stay and put, and then you were told to move up north.

So I want to know in this situation, how was the life of the creative endurance and struggle? How did you keep yourself motivated? Because as I said at the beginning, there were quite a few story arcs which went up and down. and in that moment, was it at the first draw to regain creativity and kind of get yourself back on your feet?

Rob: It's both great and it's terrible, but you realize that nobody will do it but you, essentially. and I,absolutely felt that I was 

 too old to retrain. I felt like I didn't know what else to do, if that makes sense. So it was like what I'm gonna do is just throw... I had no idea what I was going to do, but I thought, "I'm just gonna throw energy at doing things and see what happens." And so at the time, I didn't know if that was gonna be...

As I mentioned in my talk, I went off and did some sign writing. I was teaching as well. so I was doing all sorts of teaching from graphic design. I was working with special needs children as well. SoI just thought if anything will come along, I'll just throw as much energy at it as possible, and I'll see what comes from there.

Radim : Do I remember rightly that you also mentioned you worked in prison?

Yes, I did. So I was doing sessions. I was doing workshops in prison, again, on art, and different forms of art in there. Question, how do you find yourself in prison? Do you pitch for it? Do you have a call? How do you do that?

Rob: Well, no, what had happened was I was senior designer for local authority in, Worcestershire, and as a result of that, some of the people from Worcestershire, had gone and worked in the, libraries section of the prison. So I got a call, and would I be interested in doing some sessions in prison?

Radim : I had a first understanding of, what it's like for people in prison when I've spoken to 

 Alison Black from Studio Craig Black, who actually used to be a mental health nurse in prison. And I got to really understand how complex those people are, because to the outside society, you might say, "Oh, you're just a bad person. You did bad things." But there are so many underlying issues that take people on the edge of the fringe of the society to really work out what do they really need.

 And she was telling me in a very similar way to you, she says she would be speaking to people and say, "Do you wanna draw today? Are you gonna do something?" Because creativity is an outlet that some of us can take for granted, 

We've got beautiful careers. We get to do whatever we want to do, whenever we want to do, And sometimes we even moan about not being paid enough for it or working late. And when you compare it to people in prison, they've got nothing.

So when Alison was talking about the fact that even giving these people some time to create and have a mental health break, get them to paint, Those moments became life-changing to that person

Rob: to that person. 100%. I mean, you've only gotta look at the statistics of people buying, art materials when COVID hit, Globally. creativity is just, it's a really important thing, and it's something that people should nurture. It's something we've forgotten along the way as well, of what it can actually do. And, I think it's incredibly important and no matter who that is, no matter who I'm working with, whether it's, as I say, children or adults or prisoners, you find that actually what happens is you become this, art therapist as well.

You start working on these things, and then people start opening up, and they start telling you their stories and, it's bizarre. 

Radim : Rob, what did you learn about yourself working in prison? Sorry, for still keeping you in prison. but was there any sort of deep sense of realization that may have changed a lot of things? 

Rob: There are some people in there who need creativity, who absolutely need creativity to get through. And I think become aware of how important that is, and how important that it's facilitated, and how important it's supported.

it's super interesting what you said. Some people need creativity because creativity was, in your case, something that showed you the light in where your next chapter could be. When you mentioned family issues, you mentioned sort of things falling apart, you started drawing on coffee cups, and that was unknowingly beginning of something much bigger that you could never imagine Imagine.

100%, yeah. 

Radim : What was the first thing you drew on a coffee cup?

Rob: it was the one I showed in the talk, "America, do your thing," I think. And it was a really strange because again, it's context is a funny thing 'cause Instagram isn't the place it was then.

-- Now, the work you put on Instagram is next to the funny cat falling off a roof or somebody doing a backflip on a motorbike or all these things. But back then, there was almost an area of Instagram which was just people doing like letter forms and creativity and things like that, and people were quite supportive and encouraging of that.

 and certainly at the time, it wasn't something I did cynically. I just put it online and it got all this good feedback, And again, I mentioned it in my talk, being a freelancer and deciding to go freelance at that time was incredibly isolating. I had no idea what to do.

I sort of felt like a failure as well because I was kinda like, "My job's over," and I had this career that I felt was doing everything for me. And so putting something online and finding that it somehow resonated with other people was like, "Oh, that felt like it was really good. I'll try doing that again."

and I think weirdly a lot of them are, if you look back and look at those cups, 90% of them have got some form of self-help on them. and 95% of those messages were aimed at me, and it wasn't until it blew up that it was just like I was just doing them and thinking, "This could be good.

 I think I was trying to use Instagram as like a shop window. So you would, go and you'd see these cups on there, and you'd go, "Okay, that's interesting. who's this guy?" And then you'd click and you'd look at my website. It was never the intention at all to be name-checked on anything.

I just thought I was going to be a commercial letterer or commercial artist or whatever. I just thought you'd look at my website and you'd employ me to do some things for you. and then it blew up. 

Radim : I'm still sort of tracing, visually tracing the nexus of you being graffiti artist, designer, sign writer, because all of these things, of course, culminate in what you create in on one of these cars. 'cause I have to admire for someone who's very sort of digitally orientated as a creative, I admire the skill and the craft and the patience that go into the most uneven surfaces.

You know, the way you draw, the way you create. Did you have an idea when you were drawing on the first coffee cup that that would be a door to somewhere new?

Rob: No. Good. Absolutely no. And if you look at the first one I did to the last one I did, there's a chasm of difference. But I think It's like playing the piano. So if you were to play the piano today, 

 you'd probably be bad, and tomorrow you'd be probably just as bad. But next week you might be a bit better, and the week after you'd be a bit better, and the week after. And then you get to a point where you can do a full tune. and I think it's very much like that. they started off, they were quite rough.

 There wasn't much to them. I just saw them as being this possibility that could generate me some work in some way, shape, or form, and that would only be people looking at my website. But over time, I just found that by going back again and again and again and again, what happens is it shifts.

 whether you realize it or not, you're naturally getting better at whatever it is you do. I think 

Radim: So there was an interesting change to your story because from an unlikely channel of media that featured your project, everything changed from there onwards, say. Daily Mail, yeah. Channel

Rob: I 

think it's just all come together now. it's just a different platform to what it was back then. 

Radim : And your mom got to discover properly about your project. What did that feel like? Because I feel it's almost like an old school validation of the work. 'Cause once

Rob: She did. 

Radim : upon a time, we celebrated creativity because maybe there was a bit less of it.

there were fewer people doing it and There was more outlets to celebrate it. But what was it like for you to actually finally see something that you put out there, as you said, basically just a set of messages? What did it feel like?

Rob: I think what happens is when you're doing things, whenyou feel like you're in the trenches a tiny bit, like nothing's going quite right I think you do things and you do things and you do things, and every now and again there'll be small points of validation.

and whether that's something external positive happens, somebody features your work, somebody talks about your work, you get a job opportunity, something like that happens. And I think certainly in those early days you think, "Okay, that's the path out of this situation," and as a result of that you try and do more of those things.

But yeah, it definitely feels good because again, from where I was, in Worcester, it's not the kind of epicenter of the universe. So as a result of that, having any form of validation, it was really important for me at the time. And I think it just puts more fuel in the tank as well.

'Cause you think, "Okay, I'm gonna carry on doing this. This feels like it's got possibilities." 

Radim : At that time, as you were showcasing your successes, the features, the coverage, on Instagram, you had a lot of negative comments from people who were saying, "Hey, how are you gonna make money from this?" You know, "Well done. What are you gonna do next?" But when you think about those comments, what have they got to do with it, right?

It's a bit weird.

Rob: yeah. I think what happens is, it's a strange thing, isn't it?

You would never go to an art gallery, and you would never expect the artist to be stood next to the painting- ... saying, "Well, I did this, and this person looks sad because they've done this, and I've used blue 'cause of this and everything." But I think social media sort of takes away that, and obviously a lot of these people wouldn't necessarily say these things to your face, but at the same point in time, they just want to just channel that. channel that emotion at you.

And, it's bizarre. 

I guess it's our window to the world of having it broken and there's other people who walk the streets around us, Yeah. I mention it in the talk as well, I understand that you might not like my work, and that's absolutely fine.

I understand that you might not like collage. That's absolutely fine. I understand you might not like lettering. That's absolutely fine. I just think either move along and find the thing you do like. There's a million, billion accounts out there, so go and find the thing you do or even better, if that's not out there, then just create that thing yourself.

It seems really strange.There was one woman at one point who was,really quite viciously, like really quite angry towards my work. and I was like, whoa. And came back a couple of times and I looked at the account and it was, somebody from America, and she knitted things.

And I was kinda like, I don't know what to do with that. it was like, are you saying that I should, retire and start knitting? and it's that weird thing. Do you know what I mean? But it is what it is.

Radim : Maybe she was too zen and needed some help

I don't know. I have no idea. But certainly at the time I was like, "Wow." Well, I've been publishing books for more than a decade and you can see a pattern of an Amazon unhappy shopper when they just slate everything. when you read a bad review, you will take it personally, but then 

 you can go and go through all the reviews they've placed, and they would say, "Oh, this toothbrush is shit, and this is shit." and you see that negativity and you realize, okay, it's not the product, it's mostly the person

Rob: Yeah. I think it is what it is, and that's why, I mention it as well, that I think you have to have some form of self-belief.

I just do something that I try to find authentic to myself now. and then if you tell me that's whatever you feel it is, then that's fine, but I'm just trying to make something that's authentic to me. And I think that's, that for me feels like that's the best way forward.

And I think for any creative out there, if you're trying to do something that is authentic and feels real to you that you want to do, then I think that's the absolute way forward. 'Cause I think if you try and please everyone, I think where would that go at the moment, it's almost impossible.

Radim : It's tempting to want to please everyone when you start in the creative industry because when you start being creative, you want the validation, you want the love, you want the hope that you actually can do this, you know, for a very long time. But I think that moment when you realize that this is only for half of the people that you know, or maybe even ten percent or even half of that, that is the moment of realization which can be so comforting and validating and realizing

 I don't need to be friends with everyone. I don't need everyone to like my work

Rob: I think if you did, I think if you made the work that absolutely universally everybody liked, it would probably be the blandest thing in the world as well, 

I think there is something about, trying to somehow find your voice, whatever that is, however that looks, and drilling into that and being as authentic as you possibly can. 

Radim : Very true. Very true. So your work through painting on coffee cups got you to work on some amazing projects, including Golden Globes and other incredible work. But then the pandemic hit

So we go back from the high to the low. What I think is remarkable about your career, Rob, is that the number of pivots and regenerations and resurrections that you've created, especially through the pandemic. Let's talk about that for a second, because there was, again, the thing you found another door and I think somewhere new

Rob: I just think, everything vanished.

Everything I was doing vanished, canceled, got postponed. and we were told we as creatives, we were non-essential in the UK and everything, and so it was just like, what do you do? but I knew that, I had materials now. I had materials and equipment. I had a little studio. So I'll just crack on and try and be an artist and see where that gets me.

Radim : You've mentioned again there was a negativity towards what you were doing back then. But that moment, you turned it around by a project that was called

Rob: Your Words, My Hands, yeah. So massively, certainly at the time because obviously as a lettering artist, if you're putting things onto social media, it has to say something, doesn't it?

as a lettering artist, you have to write something. And so You'd write something positive, and people would be like, "How on earth can you be so positive?" "Like the world's falling apart," blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So, you put something on there that was quite negative, and people would be like, "How can you be so negative?

You've got it so much better than other people." So you're just like, "I don't know what to do." So I'd worked in that particular style of this loose, expressive kind of, handwriting, and so I thought, "Well, I'll put it onto other people." So I formed the project, and it was brilliant for me 'cause it meant that I could carry on lettering.

I could generate money as well, and also if you criticized it, I didn't come up with them anyway, so it was fine. We've got to get to the next arc of your story, which was collage. Yes 

Radim : And what really surprised me, you had a little subset written saying, "Be careful about collage."

Rob: yeah. Weirdly, again, I never saw it coming, but it was by far the most controversial thing I'd ever done on social media. People were like just absolutely like, "Whoa." 

I really need to have a look at your followers because they're quite a bunch. But let's talk about the diagram that you had You had A to B, and the paths from A to B were a million times different than just a straight lineyeah. I think what had happened at that point is I think however you work, you get used to a way that you work.

No matter what that is, whether you're a painter, illustrator, fine artist, whatever. I think the second you change something in that, it knocks you slightly because in your head you're fairly accomplished and you know what you're doing, and the second you change one of those elements of that, you don't quite know where you are, and that was the case definitely with me with collage.

So when I started it, it was all different to me again. It was the same materials, and I could still use lettering and letter forms, but everything else was completely different. And so what it meant was before where I knew, I could see in my head when I was starting a job, I could absolutely see what the outcome of that job was gonna be, and all I had to do was put in the work.

And whether that was two hours, two days, two weeks, I could see where that was heading and what that was gonna look like. but with collage, 'cause I didn't know, I was deliberate. I'm a very much a sort of stay in my lane thing, collage has become quite popular again now.

But when I started doing it, I didn't look at anybody else's. I had no interest at all. I just wanted to try my own take on it. So as a result of that, I didn't know if I was doing it right, I didn't know if I was doing it wrong at all, and I just thought I'll just play and see where it takes me, And,it was a really, really strange time. 

Radim : I really like those two polar opposites because you're exploring something that makes you feel alive, and then you got something else that makes you doubt it

I think creativity is like any relationship.

Rob: You've gotta constantly try and find ways to fall in love with it, And I think otherwise you end up repeating the same patterns again and again. And I never really wanted to do that. I wanted to see where it took me, and sometimes that pushes me and my work into uncomfortable areas where I'm like, "I don't feel as accomplished with this," and, or other times it tends to work.

But I think it's just about trying to find different directions with your work. 

Radim : and can I ask you with everything that you've ever been doing, is it escapism? Is it about reinvention?

Rob: It's always escapism. 

 absolutely. and I'm very, very lucky because what happens is, if it's going really bad for me, I'll channel that into my creativity, and if it's going really, really well for me, I'll celebrate that by channeling it into my creativity. And so what happens is you end up with this situation where if it's going bad, you create.

If it's going good, you create. And I think I've been very, very fortunate, and I think any creatives, we're incredibly fortunate to have this thing. We don't realize how lucky we are to have something- ... that you can use, whether that's music or whether that's sewing or whether that's even knitting.

 but having this thing that you could have is just, absolutely incredible. 

Radim : I think having that deep sense of gratitude, knowing that what you're doing is a gift. Most people are not that lucky. Most people don't even know that's possible. And for us, you know

 I'm still quite interested about the fact that you see collage as escapism because there's this sort of creative discontent, like creativity and conflict, not necessarily knowing where to go, where again, accepting the fact that creativity isn't meant to be easy. It's about taking you places that become ultimately rewarding.

So when you start to experiment and started doing things that's pushing you in a new direction, did you ever feel there would be a commercial aspect to it? Did you ever feel that there is something that could be potentially therapeutic or almost a form of rehabilitation? 

Did you think that the medium and the process was something bigger than you imagined, at the time?

Rob: Time?

No, not at all. I just thought, I'll just do this thing, and it will hopefully help me along the way. 

Radim : simply that. The comments that came after you shared the work about a Flintstone Photoshop. Again, where do people find you? Because I'm surprised because as someone who grew up with Photoshop, almost digital native,

I kind of felt that I found the back of Photoshop with what I was doing. I found everything I could do with it. Of course, there's a lot more options, but then I moved it on to something else. Whereas I find what you do ultimately, from my perspective, so rewarding because you can feel what you're creating, right?

Rob: having twenty-five different layers in Photoshop is lovely because you can move them around real quick, you can scale them, you can do whatever you want. But the tactile nature of actually collaging, creating, cutting, pasting, rearranging, sitting with it, giving it time, that seems to me that it's so much more rewarding than Photoshop work Yeah. I think we've become obsessed with making everything as quick as possible, and I think obviously it's a slower way of doing it, and people seem to think it's better to make things just as quick as possible, which just seems insane.

There's 

Radim : There's something about it, having loss of innocence, where we might have been conditioned by the world to tell us or convince us that if you're not something tomorrow, you're missing out and that you need to move. But tell me about the Flintstone Photoshop because you've turned it into something bigger.

You're doing workshops and more. Tell me about that.

Rob: Well, again, I never realized that when I started it, that people would want to learn it and people would want to do it. So, luckily, some opportunities have come along the way, and I'm able to, go and do workshops with it.

It's amazing. Utterly bizarre. 

Radim : What is the sense of wonder to show someone the power of collage in a room that they've not been potentially exposed to it before, and now they have a power of creativity and imagination?

Rob: I think there's something that's really, really interesting in just getting a desk and putting loads and loads of materials on it, and materials that are creative they've never used before and said, "Right, go for it."

Let's see what they come up with 

some do and some just go completely, That's incredible. you also worked as an educator. I did, yeah. 

Radim : and you've got, honorary degree What did that feel like? 

Rob: it certainly wasn't something I was expecting at all. very strange.

Radim : When you got told it's coming, you've been selected for a honorary degree, did you have that sort of end-of-life flashback going through all the hardships, through all the chapters going, "How did that happen?" because it didn't look that way for a while at the beginning of your story that this would be actually, you know, part of it

Rob: day become that. Yeah, 100%. 100%. And I think, it's really strange 'cause you put it together and it makes a nice story, but it certainly didn't feel like that, and it certainly didn't feel as linear.

but really, really weird. Really strange. 

Radim : Speaking about education, what sort of patterns do you see in people that you can recognize your old self in some of them and go, "You know what? You'll be okay. It's gonna be okay." And sometimes it seems almost suffocating. They'll try to be someone really fast. What is your approach to education today?

Rob: I think it's explaining that it's really, really, really simple. the, and the simplicity is that you're on one side, your dreams are on the other, and there's this bit in the middle where you need to put the work in 

that's the same whatever age you are and whatever you want to do, whether you wanna paint a mural on a wall or sell a oil painting or whatever. There's a quote by Picasso, "Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working." and I sort of stick by that where you just...

By doing stuff increases the chances of something happening. 

Radim: That's a very nice way to put it. So where do we find you next? I feel like we've covered a lot of ground, a lot of bases. You know, again, your collage stuff, whenever I see it online, it amazes me that you can turn a Domino's pizza box into a piece of art. Your imagination is incredible with that. Where do you see your next story happening? Is it something that's already brewing, or is it something that you're just enjoying at the moment and thinking we'll find out?

Rob: A bit of both really. I think I'll just keep doing what I do and trying to find new ways to love it and seeing what happens along the way, and that feels like that's enough.

I think if you make the goals too big, or if you make them really, really specific, I think you run the chance of being really disappointed by not getting to them. So what I try to do is I just try and get engrossed in the thing and seeing where that takes me, and that feels like that's enough.

Radim : And there's one thing about creativity that you never thought that you would have learned when you were a young person you've dropped some incredible bits of wisdom already but What have you found about yourself and creativity that you didn't know as an 11-year-old graffiti artist?

Rob: That I just mentioned that I'm fortunate to have it.

I think it's simply that I'm fortunate to have it. seeing that the challenges And everyone, again, I talk about some of my hardships. I'm not unique. Everybody's got those things. And so to have something that I can use is really, really important to me.

Radim : Rob, thank you very much for talking to me today. I really enjoyed our conversation, and I've been really happy with your words on creativity and humanity and life. To have someone like you pushing and trying to create the best possible work,and finding connections and dealing with all the negativity that shouldn't really need to come with creativity, but it does.

Rob: Thank you. 

Thank you for listening to this episode of Daring Creativity Podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions, and suggestions, 

So please get in touch via the email in the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, Radim Malinic.

from Seven Million Bikes Podcast. Thank you, and I hope to see you on the next episode