Murugiah returns to Daring Creativity for a conversation that feels like watching someone step fully into who they were always meant to be. 

A multidisciplinary artist trained in architecture, living and working in London, Murugiah has spent the years since his last appearance developing a deeply personal body of work — acrylic paintings that fuse his digital aesthetic with a new emotional rawness, rooted in his Sri Lankan heritage and shaped by a decade of intentional craft. ~

 One email to the Quentin Blake Centre for Illustration led, against all expectations, to an invitation to open the entire centre with his debut solo exhibition.

This is a conversation about patience, pursuit and the quiet power of just doing the work — without waiting for permission, without chasing the outcome, and without needing the world to show up before you get started.

Key takeaways:

• Creating your own opportunity is not a strategy — it's a mindset. One email sent from a place of genuine excitement changed the entire trajectory of Murugiah's career
• Emotional heft takes time. The years spent developing a visual aesthetic were necessary before the personal, introspective work could emerge
• Following the fun keeps you present. When imposter syndrome strips you of the now, curiosity and play bring you back
• Tactility is a response, not nostalgia. Moving into acrylic painting was a deliberate turn towards what AI cannot replicate — intuitive, human, physical decision-making
• The journey is the reward. The hours at the table, the meetings, the exchanges — those are what you carry. The response to the work is secondary
• Radical empathy fuels introspection. Putting yourself in someone else's shoes — even a bus driver's — creates the internal awareness that feeds deeply personal work
• A debut doesn't need to come early to matter. Coming to it at 38, with a full life behind him, made Murugiah's show richer and more resonant than speed could ever have allowed

Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic

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Murugiah: I've had this opportunity in the new exhibition to explore some sculptural works. Now I'm thinking, right? Follow the fun. I had a lot of fun on these sculptural works. The paintings are a joy to make.

They've just, they've become part of what I do, so I can just keep doing them. Now, what can I add on top? And it's not about growing in that ego way. It's more fun to me. To explore things three dimensionally next you're turning these slowly and slowly.

These characters coming from the 2D digital screen into a more tactile, painterly way, into a more three dimensional way. What happens next? There's clearly, there's animation, there's 3D animation, there's live action film. Eventually I'll become a filmmaker. this is what you want to hear, Adam. At At some point I will make a live action film. Who knows? We'll see. 

Radim: Welcome to the Daring Creativity Podcast, a show about daring to forever explore creativity that isn't about chasing shiny perfection. It's about showing up with all your doubts and imperfections and making them count. It's about becoming more of who you already are. My name is Radim Malinic I'm a designer, author, and eternally curious human being.

 I am talking to a broad range of guests who share their stories of small actions that sparked lifetime discoveries, taking one step towards the thing that made them feel most alive. 

 Let me begin this episode with a question. Are you ready to discover what happens when you dare to create? 

Radim: There are artists who chase opportunity, and then there are artists who simply do the work so honestly, so personally, and so completely that the opportunity has no choice but to find them. My guest today is Murugiah, a London-based multidisciplinary artist trained in architecture, working across illustration, fine art, and design.

He's been developing a new body of work, acrylic paintings that fuse his iconic digital aesthetic with something far more emotionally raw, rooted in his Sri Lankan heritage and shaped by years of deliberate, unhurried craft. In this conversation, we talk about following the fun, the danger of chasing reward, and why the most personal thing you can make is always the most powerful.

It's my pleasure to share with you my conversation with Murugiah. It's so great to see you again. Welcome back to Darren Creativity.

Murugiah: Hi, Adam. Thank you so much for having me back.

Radim: You, one of the elite club of returning guests that had to come back. there's so much that you're doing right now, so much, but you push in on so many different fronts in personifying, embodying concept of daring creativity. I'm excited to talk to you today because you got something to reveal which I think is quite important pivotal moment in your career so far. So let's talk about it. But if someone didn't listen to one of my first episodes of second season, who's mur, who are you, how would you introduce yourself?

Murugiah: for new listeners of, our conversation, my name is Murga and I'm a multidisciplinary artist, living and working in London trained in architecture and I work in illustration, fine art design, and generally being a creative person. 

Radim: as you said for the new listeners of our conversation in our previous conversation, we covered almost your journey from the beginning to now or what was now then and now. I think we are gonna cover now to the future because I would like you to reveal what have you been working on since obviously since I haven't seen you podcast wise, I've seen you in person, but been working on something so important that I wanted to talk about it, like what goes into such projects.

Murugiah: when when did we last speak? What year did we last speak?

Radim: 24.

Murugiah: 24. at the tail end of 2023, beginning of 2024. By this point I had been making work with a new aesthetical influence from the years of 2019 up to 2023. I used the pandemic to create a new art style with the wealth of experience I'd gained from transitioning from architecture to illustration and art in 2012.

So 2012 to 2019 wealth of experience, developing what I liked, what I didn't like. And then when the pandemic hit in 2019, I developed a new art style, and that took me up to our conversation, 2023 beginning of 24. And in that time, because I had spent the last 2019 to 2023, developing the aesthetics of this style, this new style influenced by my Sri Lankan heritage, my western upbringing.

I started to think I wanted to get more thematics in place. I wanted to talk more emotionally and personally about the work. And to do that, I started to also move into analog production. I wanted to make acrylic paintings, trying to replicate my clean lines in flat colors of my digital aesthetic, and try and see what I could do.

What I could add with an acrylic painting. So I was doing a lot of things here, wanting to speak very personally and emotionally with each piece. And I wanted to see what I could do with acrylic painting. What kind of things could I add? So really trying to make something more personal at this time.

And I started making small a two paintings of very specific ideas. I, an early one was called Myopic and it was one of my characters surrounded by vines and. As you pan up towards the painting, you see these brightly colored flowers and faces, and it was a piece about being able to see the wood through the trees.

And you could climb up those vines and climb above those brightly colored faces and flowers, your mind would be clear. So I was trying to make a piece like this, which took a bit longer. So that would be the theme of the painting, the aesthetics. Moving to acrylic painting, I wanted to create something that was tangible, a little bit more textured, and addition to my bright colors and bright flat colors.

 So the way I did that was I do a digital drawing. I transfer it onto thick, heavy stock watercolor paper with red ink, because red ink is more forgiving when you paint. Then before applying these flat colors, I decided to do these acrylic drip texture washer. And I would drip this acrylic wash over the painting, over this transferred drawing onto this paper, and I would move the canvas around or the paper around and allow these drips to move across to create this textured background that only a human being could do.

This is a physical act of moving the paint around so that it drips in only ways that I can decipher and, determine. Then I would fill in my colors on top. So then you have this tangibly made, emotionally presented image. And then when I shared that on social media, I started my description of each piece with, ever feel like, and then I went into the description of the piece.

Ever feel like you can't see the woods through the trees. And then I would go on a little bit and then I would title the piece and present it. I would do that a few times. I did that over the course of, after we spoke over the course of 2024, oh, there's a cat. I would do that quite a few times.

And then in early March of 2024, I contacted the Quentin Blake Center for illustration. I had seen that they were developing a new center for illustration, a new museum gallery space, and on that site, and there's the main building, there's this very long building. on that site was a small windmill space with the, which they described as potentially a space for activations and small activities.

And I had contacted the center saying, oh, I've just started making these. Paintings, I've got this body of work. But I've just started making these small paintings in a two i'd. It's a cylindrical building. I'd love to exhibit them in this cylindrical building as a series. And one conversation led to another and many months later they came back and they said, look about that small wind be space and your series of paintings.

Instead of doing that, would you like to open the new center with a debut solo exhibition of your entire body of work that you've developed from 2019 to now?

Radim: I have so many questions. Larry, you made me think of so many things because I started this conversation with a blank piece of paper. I listened to what you got to say and find some dots that I want to join and ever feel like it feels like a sign of times because what you did, you have created your own opportunity.

The more I think about of what we do and how we do it, especially in now in 2026, to sit back and relax and wait for the world to show up on your doorstep is not gonna happen, and creating your own inroads and your pathways and actually saying, Hey, I want to be there. it's half of the conversation already not filled in.

 So what I want to know. What did it feel like, because , I'm gonna ask you about the transition from the digital into acrylic and physical and how did you get to it? But I'm gonna ask you that question later because I want to know about your hopes and your expectations from this email that you send off and say, I'm making small A to a is not small, A two a two pieces, and then you present, obviously, proposed it.

What was that feel like? did you leave that email at that time or were you hopeful? what was your expectations? That's what I want to know first.

Murugiah: I had no real expectations. I was just very happy and content with these pieces I was making, they felt truly personal to me. The work I was making from 2019 up to 2023 was about developing a visual aesthetic, but it didn't really have this very core emotional thing that I'm obsessed with , this connecting with your feelings, this sensitivity.

 I wasn't ready to put it in the work at that point. It was very much about describe or present a visual aesthetic of bright colors, busy compositions influenced by South Asian culture and Western upbringing. But now it's time to. Just turn dial up a little bit more and add this emotional hef to each piece.

So personally, I just felt very confident in presenting those ideas. So I thought it was the right time to speak to someone about it and see if I could share them with somebody. And luckily, very luckily, they responded in a big way.

Radim: this is the cure for anyone who really feels like that. One email is putting all your money on 32 blank because. You were in motion, this is an add-on to what you've been describing. Because if you're in transit, if you're developing, if you're looking at that emotional heft in your work, that's your main thought process.

that's your main activity. doing this is like an antidote, like sending one email. I'm not expecting anything that can still make you feel content because still moving forward. Whereas sometimes it can be that, especially in a social media driven world.

And I hate to say that made things easier these days and it means almost like if you don't get a reprise straight away, you feel almost instantly rejected if you don't have that sort of wealth of experience and slightly more maturity. 'cause your instinct will tell you if I'm not getting an email straight away back, maybe they don't like what I do, whereas.

People are busy. And that's the thing. And I'm loving the fact that it is the one thing that you wanted to do. You would regret not sending that email because where it's taken you to be actually opening , the Quentin Blake Center fe illustration in Clark Andwell, a top of the cv, it's the top of the career portfolio statement right now, because you are the one doing this, and it all started because you wanted to do it.

Murugiah: Absolutely. I think one of the other reasons that I was asked to expand my initial request into a debut solo show was because between the years of 2019 and 2023, I was also practicing illustration and art in a multidisciplinary way. And public art sculptures, festival, branding, personal work clothing, collaborations, everything, many different projects.

And I never stuck with one type of client. I always pushed for a different type of client every time. I think, I don't know this for sure, but I think the Quentin Blake Center had seen this varied portfolio and thought. Wouldn't this be an interesting way to open a museum gallery space about illustration?

Look at what we can tell young people, kids new career artists, mid-career artists, late career artists about what you can do with your work and the variety of things you can do with your work. So aside from what they would say, which is, I'm also very talented, which is very nice of them to say, but I think the main thing that they are trying to say is look at all of the different stuff you can do with this work.

Radim: It is interesting you mentioned the T word talented because I have never thought about you that, because I think you're very unique. You are incredible in your expression. Like when, I feel like when the ingredients and the elements are so one of a kind, the talent almost feels like that's just a benchmark, that's just a sort of foundation because the expression that you put into your work, it's like nothing else I've ever seen.

We are bombarded with thousands of images every day and what you've created and what you've developed, and as you said, like with the, you were doing so many different things in so many different fronts. That it feels like coming home to what you were always meant to be doing. Because I can only encourage people to listen to the other conversation that we had.

Maybe not just now, but maybe time of a time. Don't leave this conversation. Now, I'm trying to say to these listeners stay here. Because it was a long journey. You did lots of different things that made you physically ill, that made you feel they were not showing you delight to follow.

So when you mention it's a debut show, sometimes people can think I wish I had a debut show much sooner. Whereas I feel like the debut for better or worse, it's coming at the right time of your life. Because what you bring into the world right now is fucking astounding.

Murugiah: Thank you rather, a debut show at the ripe old age of 38 years old, having not decided to put on any exhibitions in white box galleries in West London or East London or wherever. But wasn't something I was looking for, it just happened this way. I mentioned talented earlier. it's a result of a lot of hard work.

It's not born from nothing. It comes from working extremely hard. And presenting the work after many years of developing it. that's what I call talent. it's hard work,

Radim: think it's hard work and. That decision to double down on who you are on. Sticking the knowledge, I'm not gonna use the word belief, but with the knowledge that you know, you've got something that you want to share with the world and you're not gonna let go until you get to that point.

Right. 

Murugiah: It's so interesting. I consume so many interviews with creatives and filmmakers and artists, and I consume a lot of documentation from what my other love, which is cinema and. I watched a clip of Bong Jho accepting his best picture. Oscar for parasite. I'd known Bong Jon Ho's films prior to him winning this award for parasite.

But he used his acceptance speech to say the most personal is the most creative. And then he pointed and he was like, that advice came from Martin Scorsese and he pointed to Martin Scorsese in the audience and the whole academy Award audience stood up because they understood that Martin Scorsese, who won almost honorary Oscar for the Departed, they understood that Martin Scorsese's influence on the world of cinema had been so big.

 it was amazing to see this acknowledgement of an entire industry to Scorsese, but that then passed on to a very different type of filmmaker, bong Jo Ho for Parasite. And Martin Scorsese makes very personal films about violence and religion and guilt if you think about killers of the Flower Moon.

But those things , he talks about in every interview being extremely personal to him. Like he talks about being in rooms growing up and seeing violence as a young child and putting that on screen. So it just, it spurred me on to make things that were even more personal with no real understanding of how they might be received.

Radim: It's beautifully said because how long can people stand? How long even have you been searching to find a personal, because there's a beautiful sort of statement of patience in what you've created so far because you were not chasing, as you said, white box galleries of here and there, and it can feel so debilitating to think, is it my time now?

Is it my time now? Is it my time now? Because the question is important, but the question that we are asking is am I am I ready? Have I got something to share? Because the fermentation that long process of creating word and mean something. That impact, as long as it takes to make, is gonna be also tripled the impact that's gonna come after this.

Because it's possible to do things quickly, but as quickly, as the things come, they also go. So when you think about a process of movie making, how many years sometimes it takes to make a movie, sometimes decades, and it's admirable how those people don't let go because they believe in something they, what they've got, because it's the personal reasons.

That's that expression that you 

can't fake. 

Murugiah: I just watched Sirat last night, Oliver Lasher's movie about I'm not even gonna spoil anything, but the trailers are about people who go to a rave in Morocco. I'll just leave it at that. What comes after this film is madness and something I was not expecting, but I watched an interview with him and he was like, yeah, I've been trying to make this film for 10 years.

I've been thinking about this film for 10 years. So I got asked recently oh, when's your next exhibition gonna be? And I'm like, Hey, got the first one, so just hold on. But my response was 10 years time, because you need time to develop new work. You need time to live life and express what you want to express.

And in 10 years I'll be able to put it all together again. And see, it's like going out and making an album. It takes a long time. Yeah.

Radim: you can shortcut things because we have created so many patterns that we can recognize in making work easier. But the good work that, that takes time. I remember Read and Kill Your Friends by John Nivan, which is a killer of a book. it's absolute blast. And somehow at that time, I think I read it about 15 years ago and I remember. Reading about the fact that they were turned into a movie and it's taken 20 years to turn into a movie. I'm not sure why they put James Cordon in it, but that's another question. These things take a lot of time and it's just believe and believe because that journey, as you say, what you put out into your work, more thematic know, more emotionally halved, like those things come with time and I feel they come with more reward because you immerse yourself in the meaning and the purpose in the discovery of who you are and what questions you're asking of yourself that you can transfer onto the media.

Murugiah: It can get very dangerous thinking about. The reward, what comes as a result of what you're doing? I did not expect anything from that email from the Quentin Blake Center. I just was like, I'm excited about this. I want to share this. The most important thing to me that I'm practicing every day is really just exploring my own understanding of life and love and who we are as human beings.

 What comes as a result? I think. I'm coming from a place of privilege here, but I've had now quite a lot of fun projects and it's so cliched, everybody says it, but the end result is actually not what it's about. the journey you've gone on to do that project or even just the process of making that project is much more fulfilling because you can remember the hours on the table, the hours spent writing emails or exchanging emails about a project or making the work itself.

That's what you go back and remember. I never understood it until now where we're coming up to installing this exhibition. I'm like, oh, all of the hours spent developing this work and having meetings and talking about it. It was the fun stuff, what people are gonna say about it or react to it.

 I'm excited to hear it, but it's not something that's important.

Radim: So this is what you quite eloquently describe it, is your personal experience of okay, what is the next thing? I was actually personally asking you what is the thing about, what's the outcome the work, of the creative expression, but where you've taken it links it back to my book, daring Forever, which is about the role of our brain in pursuing these things because. As humans, we don't really understand who we are, how we are hardwired, what's the vehicle that we've been given. And I've been looking at one of the chapters is the chapter on permission.

And I've been looking at like the motivation, like why some of us are more motivated, why some of us are no less motivated. Turns out just like the color of our eyes or our genetics, like the, our, dopamine receptors differ from one another. Some people got wider receptors. Some people actually got smaller receptors. But dopamine is the chemical that actually is the wanting the thing that gives us the happiest nowadays, the fuzzy feeling is actually opioids. This is why addiction works really well, because we are chasing for that warm feeling.

So the dopamine thing is that we were not built or designed for pleasure. We were built for pursuit. This is how we work as humans. So we are actually going after the pursuit as hunter gatherers, which were still undeniably in some form. Go after what's next, go after what's next, and we don't always appreciate it climbing up to the top of the hill and go, Ben. I'm gonna spend here a few years just to enjoy this. We're like, okay, this is this hill. Where do I go next? What is actually, what is the second hill? Where do I go next? So I think there's a lot of understanding we need to do, and partially one of the reasons why we need to write this book is how do we understand ourself in this process?

Because we've got so much on our thinking plate let alone to misunderstand how we are operating as humans. That when we have a clarity about the one which is the, what I call the vehicle, what we've been all being given the shell, we can operate our brains.

Then we can focus on am I in the right place? Am I doing the right thing? Because pursuit is ultimately when you think of your name, of your show, it's ever feel like, to me it feels it's a pursuit of the next.

Murugiah: The pursuit of the next. Yeah. I wanted to talk about real quick, you mentioned about questioning oneself and imposter syndrome, right? it robs you of being in the present. It robs you of being in the now talk, asking, am I doing the right thing? Just be. Another thing I've been fo doing is following the fun, which is it?

Which helps you be in the present, right? I've done these paintings now for quite a while. I've had this opportunity in the new exhibition to explore some sculptural works. Now I'm thinking, right? Follow the fun. I had a lot of fun on these sculptural works. The paintings are a joy to make.

They've just, they've become part of what I do, so I can just keep doing them. Now, what can I add on top? And it's not about growing in that ego way. It's more fun to me. To explore things three dimensionally next you're turning these slowly and slowly.

These characters coming from the 2D digital screen into a more tactile, painterly way, into a more three dimensional way. What happens next? There's clearly, there's animation, there's 3D animation, there's live action film. Eventually I'll become a filmmaker. this is what you want to hear, Adam. At At some point I will make a live action film. Who knows? We'll see.

Radim: I am very sure that you will, but I have to ask you about those two words you just said. Just be because how long would you say it is taken you to realize that just being is an option?

Murugiah: I've said it just now. I transitioned from architecture to illustration and art in 2012. But my true love was art and movies when I was 18. So it was 20 years since I went to architecture school. it's been a long time, let's say, to finally living in the moment, living in the present, exploring what you want to explore next.

But that comes with a lot of privilege, right? Like I, I have enough clients and work, don't get me wrong, I still struggle every month, every year. Brutal honesty. I made half as much money as I did the previous two years. This year I made half as much money. My income dropped from whatever to half of that.

And that is scary stuff that is a result of surrounding factors in the world as a result of politics, of wars, and all sorts. It did not stop me from wanting to explore painting, sculpture, personality, humanity because those are the core theme who I am underneath. So I will always find a way presenting this work in whatever way I can.

Radim: what you did, You have come to a junction in the road where you ask yourself, who do I want to be in the room? As it's easy to carry on straight ahead with the comfortable if I was to borrow from the Steve Jobs this quote just do your thing.

Don't bump to in, Don't bump into the walls too much, fit in and whatever. Whereas when you get to that junction, you go do I stay on or do I take left or do I take hard ride? is never gonna be paved with just as good conditions and the same sort of financial reward.

Murugiah: It is that nihilist penguin meme, isn't it? Do you know that nihilist penguin meme

with Verna Hertzog? 

Radim: Is that what I'm describing?

Murugiah: The Verna Hertzog is gone around the internet. It's a nature documentary. The Ner Hertzog is narrating and making, and he films a penguin deciding whether to join their tribe on one side. To food and warmth or to go towards the mountain certain death.

And the penguin like looks back at the crowd of penguins and looks towards the mountain and then just heads towards the mountain. And then Verna heard so is he just says, but why in this very thick German accent. And it is gone around the internet in this, in a, people have misunderstood it, but it is about nihilism and I think it, I dunno, mine, approach to the work.

Clearly. I think this junction where you decide to not stick to the one road and you go to another. Cheesy as it sounds. I think it comes from my love of American pop punk music that is deeply rooted in suburban boredom and an fu attitude a teenage angst.

It's I still haven't grown outta that. So maybe that's what's the actual thread of why I'm doing what I'm doing.

Radim: You actually, at that instance, you followed that dopamine. It was just why would I get up at six o'clock in one in the morning and work on this? Why would I send this email? Why would I do this? Because we can choose, and you've mentioned about privilege quite a few times. we know how good we have it.

this is a Disneyland. Like the thing. Even just being able to do this podcast to share with thousands of people across the world, you having your show, you've actually been able to have clients from around the world us do it. This is freaking amazing. And we go, but is there more?

Murugiah: the privilege to wake up in the morning, spend two hours painting, and then go for an hour's, walk in the sunshine and not have to answer to anybody. And then to come back and write emails, sadly. I don't know if everybody's built for this life though. Some people like to go to work and like to compartmentalize as the thing that they do to earn their living.

I just never could do that. 

Radim: if I can actually interject on that one. No, that's not for everyone. I nothing, that's why there's only few of us doing this because we need people to do the other jobs. We need other people to, be in the roles that kind of create a society. when you were saying, this made me think of a quote by Rory Sland who said, unfortunately, the world is full of people who don't believe in magic.

That's why you get corporate companies, that's why you get corporate structures. That's why you get politics. People don't believe in magic. And when you put yourself almost on the fringe of the society by doing what you really believe in what is almost the only option of what you want to do, you creating the magic for those who actually appreciate it.

Because when you add up your, day in life, it's like to some people, to most people in those jobs, you'll be like, oh, I wish I could do that. Even working for an hour in the sunshine. That's a dividend of this career choice because not everyone can do this. And is the gratitude for the smallest things that then filters back into your work and creates the sort of societal representation of the snapshots of how we see the world is that we need people like you to do that because the people working for Deutsche Bank or where India Les with JP Morgan, they won't do that.

Murugiah: it might also be to do with coming of age, turning 38. Do you know what I mean? I just had a, my birthday a couple of weekends ago. Getting to a point where a lot of your friends around you are having children and you are at this junction, another junction of deciding do you have children?

Do you pursue not having children, and just. Enjoying your life in a different way. it started me down the train of thought of all of this work that I've done, all of this enjoyment that I've had at work. Is that it, is that all that this life is I've got to live my dream.

I've got to, I get to go back mentally to the lonely little kid in the art room at school when everyone else was playing outside. I was sat in the art room because that's where I felt comfortable. I get to go back and tell that kid, Hey, you've done it, you've done it. And then that kid will be like, cool, what are you doing next?

You've done it, you've done the art thing. what are you gonna do next? that definitely means starting a family probably.

Radim: when you think about it, it's a perception. It's our perception of the world. Because you'll have people with seemingly, I'm gonna call it regular lives, and they'll be like, okay, you've got your show. What is your next show? They don't really think about the journey of how long it takes to get to this point of life.

Because you're not gonna ask someone with five kids. They're like, when you having a next child? it's enough. So I think we don't always have encounters with people who gone deep on themselves, and I think when you talk about a child in the art class, in the art room, not telling him you've done it, you've gone far.

That takes a lot of retrospection looking back and actually looking into yourself who am I? Why do I create this? Why does this thing come out? And where did these shapes come from? there's a, physical influences, there's a world of movies, there's a Sri Lankan heritage, the macab is in there.

But that's your unique mixture of things.

Murugiah: I'm an introspective guy. I think I just didn't really know. I was an introspective guy. Oh, I could, I didn't know I could be an introspective, creative person until recently. That's what's messed up. I wish I had done it from a long time ago. 

Radim: there is only one ingredient. Why happens, and that is time. we just gather more experiences, more view, and as you say, introspection in our own lives because you got to try to make sense of your own life. in a me of other souls around you, but to be comfortably with yourself on your own, to hear yourself what you actually think, what you want, to achieve.

That's a gift on its own. Because I have mentioned this a few times on a podcast, now you get people who are comfortable in chaos and then there's people who are too uncomfortable to be on their own, if that makes sense. Because there is a fine tuning in evil of the world.

Like it doesn't mean that if you want for the other, that you're doing things right because our societal view of artists or creatives, bankers, bus drivers, feels like if you X, then you must be feeling like the x I'm thinking, we don't always see the intricacy of the soul that what, The bus driver could be the most amazing artist, both thinking what's just the bus driver? 

Murugiah: what we're all is very woo But we're all just human beings trying to exist, and I find that life more fulfilling if I put myself in the bus driver's shoes and I go, I wonder how he's feeling today, or, I wonder how they're feeling today.

 Empathy, radical empathy for the people around you helps you as an individual be. Introspective later. 'cause you, I don't just being a bit more aware of your surroundings and then in turn it makes you more aware of your own internal feelings. Am I gonna become like a guru of some kind?

Radim: I think what you're becoming now, I think it is a very kind human being that actually cares about others because that's, believe that's where your word comes from right now. 

I wanna talk about, about a show? what, what's gone into the pieces that you're creating? Is there some societal response how you see the world right now? What is the sort of main body of work? What does it look like? What does it say?

Murugiah: Sure. I can't share too many specifics about specific pieces of work, but I can describe you what's going on in a wider context. There are three rooms in this show. The exhibition space that I have been given is a U-Shape exhibition space, which is a very unique exhibition space with multiple entrances and exits via lift or steers.

 you really have to think about what journey you are taking your visitors on, how you are separating the work. And yeah, the feeling of your visitors when they go through this space and the first room that you enter, we have created a directional motion visitors.

we were thinking about it being a, it's a u which can connect. So we were thinking about, oh, you could send people either side of the stems of the U and take them through to the curve of the U, but we've decided to take them one way and round the other. The first room is a room of how I build worlds with other people while influenced by my own personal work.

So it's the collaborations mixed in with some of my digital personal pieces. It's, a clear direction of here's what I've been doing personally and digitally at the beginning of this 2019 to 2020. Sixth period, and here's how it's worked with collaborators, movie posters, book covers. There's a magic the gathering piece in there, which is quite fun.

And then we transition into the second room, which is this giant U-shaped space, the bottom of the u. There is a very exciting, like large scale sculptural piece in there. And then as we go round the u we get into the next stem of the U to complete it. And that is where there is a lot of introspective painting work.

Some of that work that I first contacted the Quentin Blake Center about to exhibit, and that work has been expanded in a very big way. The paintings have gotten bigger. the detail has gotten finer and the exploration of theme of personal growth or personal theme has gotten even more introspective.

And there are some exciting sculptural works in there too. So it's a three room piece, three room exhibition, there's a lot of work on show in those spaces. And in addition to that. We've got an exhibition shop, which I've been working closely with the Quentin Blake Center to deliver a range of fun products to sell in the exhibition as well.

It's an opportunity I never thought I would've had. It's just so fun to just pinch myself every day and be like, this is what are you doing here?

Radim: loving the radical gratitude for the situation. I did signal earlier that I was gonna ask you about the actual technical skill. 'cause you talked about the canvases, the, paint the layering, the texturing. So let's put a bit more color on that process where you're responding to arrival of new gen, generative technology, AI and all of those things.

And you're taking it into almost tactile textured pieces where they mean so much more and they feel so much more. What was that physical learning of these techniques? Did you know them already or are you still constantly searching and learning new techniques?

Murugiah: The last time I used analog techniques was 16, 17 years old. I'd made a lot of lino prints at school. I made a lot of paintings and drawings I could draw incredibly realistically. I could recreate images in, in. Black and white pencils. So that was the last time I used them. And I was quite good at it when I was at school.

 And then obviously architecture training, very digital. you made You made a lot of handmade models in the CNC machine and the work, the woodwork shop, we would use our hands tactically. And we were actually, throughout architecture school, we made a lot of tangible items. They just weren't drawings.

There were books, there were models, there were physical pieces, one to 50 scale models. There were foam board and stuff. So I was lucky to be at university at a time where all of this stuff was encouraged to be made by hand. But then in 2012, when I transitioned from architecture to illustration and art digital products were.

At the forefront, I think wack on tablets and graphics tablets clients were demanding a lot of work digitally because of the quick turnaround. So I stuck to that. But I always want to get back to handmade stuff. Eventually I'll want to do lino printing at some point to further sit next to that kid in the art room and be Hey, now we're making lino together so I've always wanted to do it. and by after 2019 to 2024, I built enough of a client base in digital work that I thought, maybe let's try some analog stuff. But during that time of 2019 to 2024, I always chose projects that had a tactile part of the work. Either be it a book cover, which you could end with a physical copy of a book or a movie poster, which had a limited run of screen prints that you could make at the end of this process where you could decipher paper choices, hollow foil, screen printing techniques.

I was always focused on a tactile thing at the end of each project to the chagrin of my other, fellow movie poster designers who would take on digital marketing jobs where they'd get to design a poster for their favorite Fillmore TV show, but it would just be this social media thumbnail to advertise this.

And I was What are you doing? Hey, credit to you. You're making money from it, and that's good. You're earning a living. But I just felt so. Sad that this piece of art that someone had made for this film or TV show never saw the light of day in somebody's hands. So when it came to 20, 23, 24, I was get on, making things by hand for myself, personal paintings.

That's when I moved to the acrylic painting technique. And it just came naturally. It was very easy transition a digital drawing to a pay piece of paper. And then the tactile part of the process is the painting. It's the viscosity layering of paint. Do you keep this solid color that you're applying very solid, or do you only do one layer and then it becomes a little bit thinner so you can see the textured wash underneath and those decisions.

 That's the intuitive stuff. That's the stuff that AI can't do, right? It's it. It's human being, being like, oh, that blue looks more solid when it comes out the tube. That's great. This pink does not look as solid. I'm gonna layer this up a bit more, or keep it thin, 

Radim: that's interesting. I'm, gonna challenge you on what you just said because you say AI can't do that. I think AI can do a lot of things. It just can't have the reason for them

because when you talked about the tactile nature of the things that you've chosen to do, it's ultimately playing to our senses.

Like you want to have more than just one dimensional experience because I've used AI on various manual task of expanding artworks and whatever something that you would do as a recher and AI can. Fake it really well,

yeah, we're talking about like literally silly things, right?

Like nothing heavy. And you can feed a vector sketch and say, okay, I want paint texture to do, and it produces something, but it doesn't have that tactile feel. It doesn't have that what would you describe it? Because the purpose behind it, and the reasoning is what makes the piece unique.

It makes it personal because believe that's where we will always win. there's this huge chat from lots of corners, People talk about taste, but I'm thinking, where the fuck was the taste for the last 30, 40 years? We, always had the taste don't tell me that now taste is important because it always was important because it comes from us If you care.

Murugiah: When we won't win is when those robots get sentient and then they can make their own art and make their own decisions. And the AI that they've been training on gets put into them, into that sentient robot. And then they're just living beings. they're just other beings.

But I think we're quite far away from that singularity of sentient robots.

Radim: would you buy a robot painting? This is the

Murugiah: hell yeah. I would, I'd be so intrigued to see what a sentient robot would be making about their own experience and their, they're what their understanding of the world is because they're sentient. they're another being at that point. want to be hopefully respected because they also have the physical power to destroy us all.

Radim: wow. You have taken me somewhere I wasn't expecting.

Murugiah: You've seen Terminator, right? they fucked us up.

Radim: I would like to believe that I was still an imagination, 

Murugiah: I'm being silly. I'm being silly. Like at the moment. Yes. AI can't produce tactile intuitive decision making. It can't make a brush stroke, which is a choice of a human. It can't fuck up. It can't make mistakes. Like half the reason I make my paintings look the way they do is because I can't do certain techniques, right?

I've made decisions to go down the path of specific techniques. I think that's what ultimately human beings respond to. And we watch movies all the time, and the biggest movie of the year is Sinners. The second biggest movie of the year is One Battle after Another. They both have very visceral, tactile, looks and feels to those movies so we're still proving our love of tactility every day.

Radim: It beautifully brings me to what you just said. the founder of the Quentin Blake Center for Illustration, which is Quentin Blake himself, who says, I have long dreamt of permanent place with illustration above the door.and now the amazing reality is that we have it.

I'm proud to think that the center has my name on it. Illustration is a wonderful, universal and varied language. Here we shall celebrate its tradition and welcome, the astonishing diversity of visual language from across the world. When you talk about sentient robots and Quentin Blake, they couldn't be further apart, right? Absolutely. Further apart, because the reason why. Quentin is so many people's favorite illustrator. Why his career is so beautifully celebrated is because he comes back to tactile nature. It comes to that jaggedy the unpredictability that jaggedness, like that realness of it.

 his illustration is fantastic, but it's not too far from what you potentially or anyone can do. it didn't feel so far. 'cause it gives people hope that everyone can tell a story.

Murugiah: It come Quentin's work. It is about that scratchy style. It is about that irreverent humor, but also about capturing life in a very. Subtle and beautiful way. This is somebody who has been around for decades, who's been able to present this work, which is really about humanity and fun and silliness, and then also done it in this extremely intuitive human way, like the scratchy style it's beautiful work. He's just capturing life and reflecting it back and, presenting it to the world. In, his work. He also happened to have collaborated with ro dah and a series of books that captured the imaginations of many kids, right? So it's this combined thing of.

Commercial projects very personal work as well. So it's a mixture of everything. When it comes to comparing Quentin to robots, I, yeah, I, don't know. I'm sure a robot or an AI could replicate the style, but it can't make those intuitive decisions that make the work human, it's something that's very hard to explain.

You'd have to ask someone, a random person compare a Quentin Blake imitation drawing made by an AI generator versus an original tactile Quentin Blake painting. And you could see the difference immediately. you present that to a human being and they would be able to tell you. But the way they'd be able to tell you is that this one feels different.

Radim: I learned somewhere that our brains are just very good at spotting bullshit. we just know the difference straight away. And sometimes you can have a render, especially at a height of the 3D development people can do some beautiful things. You're like, yeah, you can tell, you don't even have to be an expert.

Just doesn't feel right. Doesn't feel real. There's, a sad thing that just, it just, your brain will spot. And in a way, when you talked about Quentin Blake, like he captures life and presents it back to you. That's what I'm getting from your work now. Like you capturing your societal commentary, the way you see the world and presenting it back.

And as I told you at the beginning of our conversation, the way you do it is so unique that it makes me want to know more about what goes into this, what do you see, what are the connections that we haven't made for ourselves? Because how did you feel presenting this, these pieces to the center headed by someone as, as important as Quentin?

 did you feel any doubt? Did you feel any did you feel like you were at the right place at the right time, which was to be established and you way, but did you feel any heaviness, any pressure from delivering? Or did you feel like, okay, it's my time, I can enjoy this?

Murugiah: Working with the artistic director, Olivia Ahmed and her team gave me nothing but support and joy and pride in the work. Proud proudness in the work. I know nothing about curating a show, right? So I just wanted to put as much work as possible because I have this South Asian mentality of more is better.

Try to prove yourself. All this. And the folks at the Quentin Blake Center were saying no, we chose you because these pieces of work. Stand on their own. They mean something. we want visitors to stand in front of each piece of your work and contemplate it and take it in. And that gave me a lot of confidence when they said that.

 It took me a long time to understand oh, no, Have blah, have pride in your own work and focus on each piece and make it mean something very important. What it meant, I think it worked, the, the imposter syndrome of presenting Quentin Blake Center of Illustration in this wider framing of your question, I don't think that will come until.

Reactions until the show is installed we see how it's responded to. That's probably where our, it'll suddenly dawn on me that I have a national exhibition where anyone can come and tell their opinion on this stuff.

Radim: Do the opinions matter though? Do they matter? Because You didn't create the pieces of opinions to present opinions. It just reflections. That's 

expressions. 

Murugiah: They didn't matter until you have a responsibility to present an exhibition to members of the public where you want to celebrate a newly presented art form. Quent Blake Center for Illustration is saying, we are a national museum, a gallery space for illustration. This is the home of illustration and that comes with needing the building to continue and to present future shows to be a part of this culture in the uk visiting exhibitions and going to art exhibits and national galleries.

Being one of the first people to be a part of that in the form of my show, there is a responsibility there, and you do require people to come and to enjoy and to say whether they like it or not, but you really need to get people through the door. So I feel an immense sense of responsibility, but before the show, before I even got the opportunity.

 I was making work for myself. But now that it's being presented in this form, there's a responsibility to get people through the door.

Radim: I think I can agree with you. I'm trying to search. For the true meaning because how many times you show up in a gallery and you don't know anything about anything and it's there and almost, it's almost like a good book. A good book is meaningful to you when they find you at the right time.

The show is not gonna find some people at the right time. They'll get it a year later they're not there yet. What you're doing incredibly well is actually you care of how you show up. You care how. You want people to feel you are very grateful for the opportunity, especially attached to such something so big. And that's where you get this cocktail of expression that's is gonna translate into something so remarkable in your career. and the illustration center that it'll be celebrated for years to come.

Murugiah: hope so. I think I care so much because I know what it was like to not have these opportunities to IE 27 years old when I was crying my eyes out in my little room, my studio room, talking to my partner saying, the work I'm doing doesn't make sense.

It doesn't mean anything to me. None of this is actually what I do. It doesn't feel authentic to me. 27 years old, just being like that upset about why this isn't working. So couldn't just look back at that time and be yeah, it's all fine now. Don't worry about it. Just, keep going.

You're having a good time. Just enjoy it. but the reason I can be so humble about it now and is because I know what it was like to not have it then.

Radim: what can I say? I think it's all happening. It's the right thing happening at the right time, and I can wait to be there to see the opening, to celebrate you, to support you, because yeah, it just feels like everything aligned at the right time in the right place. Well done.

And yeah, thanks for coming back to talk to me. And I said, can't wait to see your show. And I definitely encourage everyone listening to this to come up and view the show, 

So thank you very much.

Murugiah: Thank you so much, Len, for letting me come on your podcast and just ramble for however long this is going to be edited too.

so I'm looking forward to seeing you all at the opening of the Quentin Blake Center in a few days. I can't wait to see you all there. It is gonna be such a fun exhibition and come and say hi.

Radim: Fantastic.

Thank you for listening to this episode of Daring Creativity Podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions, and suggestions, 

So please get in touch via the email in the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, Radim Malinic.

The audio production was done by Niall Mackay from Seven Million Bikes Podcast. Thank you, and I hope to see you on the next episode