In this deeply personal conversation, branding designer Liz Mosley opens up about her creative journey from childhood curiosity to building a recognisable personal brand in the design industry. Starting with memories of making magazines with friends and being inspired by BBC's Blue Peter, Liz traces how early creative encouragement from her parents shaped her approach to design and business.

The conversation explores Liz's "rejection challenge"—a public project that transformed how she views failure and positioning in the creative industry. She shares how documenting rejections publicly helped her build confidence and attract opportunities, ultimately becoming her signature approach to making the design industry more approachable and human.

Liz discusses the evolution from feeling like an outsider in design to becoming a community builder who helps others navigate creative challenges. The dialogue covers the psychology of rejection, the power of storytelling in personal branding, and the importance of having clear purpose, goals, and values when making business decisions.

Key Takeaways

• Early creative encouragement matters: Supportive parents who allow messy creative exploration can shape lifelong creative confidence and willingness to experiment
• Rejection is part of the creative process: Expecting and normalising rejection makes it easier to handle and can actually lead to faster recovery and learning
• Confidence attracts opportunities: When you overcome fear of rejection, you naturally show up more confidently, which draws people and opportunities to you
• Community over competition: Actively participating in creative communities and making the industry more approachable benefits everyone, including your own career growth
• Personal branding requires clarity: The most successful personal brands communicate their message with crystal-clear purpose, goals, and values
• Storytelling follows a simple formula: Character + Conflict + Conclusion = compelling narratives that help people connect with your work and process
• Strategy doesn't need to be complicated: Having a goal, making a plan, and executing it is strategy in its purest form—don't overcomplicate it
• Know what you won't do: Being clear about your values and saying no to misaligned opportunities is as important as saying yes to the right ones
• Vulnerability creates connection: Sharing struggles and imperfections makes you more relatable and helps others feel less alone in their creative journeys
• Growth happens outside comfort zones: Taking calculated risks and pushing yourself slightly beyond what feels comfortable leads to breakthrough moments and career evolution

Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic

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[00:00:00] 

[00:00:10] Liz Mosley: I think the key is to not get sucked into having a victim mentality or a, just like a negative mentality about it. 'cause if you get sucked into thinking, Well, this was one of the things that I had to work through and process was it was recognizing that when I got a rejection, I would tell all these bad stories to myself in my head that weren't necessarily true.

[00:00:33] Liz Mosley: And so the shift that needed to happen was that I just chose to stop doing that. never completely stop, 'cause this is gonna be something that I gotta work on the rest of my life. But, I made a decision that I am not gonna let my brain go down that path telling myself a negative story.

[00:00:50] Liz Mosley: And instead I'm gonna be like, okay, this didn't feel good, but there's something that I can learn something from this and then turn it into a positive. [00:01:00] 

[00:01:02] Welcome to the Daring Creativity Podcast, a show about daring to forever explore creativity that isn't about chasing shiny perfection. It's about showing up with all your doubts and imperfections and making them count. It's about becoming more of who you already are. My name is Radim Malinic. I'm a designer, author, and eternally curious human being.

[00:01:25] I am talking to a broad range of guests who share their stories of small actions that sparked lifetime discoveries, taking one step towards the thing that made them feel most alive. 

[00:01:37] Let me begin this episode with a question. Are you ready to discover what happens when you dare to create?

[00:01:45] Radim Malinic: My guest today is my second returning guest and there's a right reason for her comeback. In this episode, I'm speaking to Liz Mosley and amongst many very relatable topics, we connected quite a few dots that have led her to [00:02:00] her rejection challenge. I. It's a public project that transformed how she views failure and positioning in the creative industry.

[00:02:07] Radim Malinic: She shares how documenting rejections publicly helped her build confident and attract opportunities, ultimately becoming her signature approach to making design industry more approachable and human. Liz discusses the evolution from feeling like an outsider in design to becoming a community builder who helps others navigate creative challenges.

[00:02:29] Radim Malinic: Our conversation covers the psychology of rejection, the power of storytelling in personal branding, and the importance of having a clear purpose, goals and values when making business decisions. It's my pleasure to welcome back Liz Mosley.

[00:02:44] Radim Malinic: 

[00:02:49] Radim Malinic: Hey Liz, welcome back to the show.

[00:02:52] Liz Mosley: Hey Radim. Thanks for having me.

[00:02:54] Radim Malinic: you're my second returning guest. 

[00:02:56] Radim Malinic: it's a special privilege. 

[00:02:58] Radim Malinic: I had to have you back [00:03:00] because you and I chat often and most of those conversations are not recorded.

[00:03:04] Radim Malinic: So it's time for everyone to hear what we chat about. do you need an introduction? Let's do one. because people know you, but if someone doesn't know you, who are you? What do you do? 

[00:03:16] Liz Mosley: I am a branding designer. so I mainly working on branding for small businesses, but then probably similarly to you, I like doing lots of different things. So I have a podcast called Building Your Brand. I do talks, workshops, do some sponsored work with different brands.

[00:03:33] Liz Mosley: I think the way I see it is that it all comes under the umbrella of helping small businesses with their branding and marketing. So everything links back to that, but it just looks different in all different ways.

[00:03:43] Radim Malinic: I thought about the fact that I don't really know much about your background.

[00:03:47] Radim Malinic: I know what you do now and I know what you stand for. I hear your name being mentioned in rooms where you're not, and you've created an incredible personal brand. But I dunno much about your background. I know.

[00:03:57] Radim Malinic: you've studied somewhere, you did something, but [00:04:00] I've got a habit of asking people questions like, what was the first encounter of creativity?

[00:04:04] Radim Malinic: Like, where does the spark of all of it started? 

[00:04:08] Liz Mosley: Oh, that's such a good question. neither of my parents were like particularly creative. Well, my dad was like, but not in his career, if So he was, he's an amazing painter and he used to love taking photos and stuff like that, but he, is actually a zoologist.

[00:04:22] Liz Mosley: So not particularly creative, but they always really encouraged my creativity. So whether it was like I'd seen something on TV and I wanted to try and make it, I was that, like that generation, that was like watching Blue PI dunno if you would've seen this watching Blue Peter.

[00:04:35] Liz Mosley: And then, like I'd see something and I'd be like, I wanna make that. And so I feel like ever since I was a kid, I've just been making things. I used to walk round. With a sketchbook. And I remember the other day, it's funny isn't it? How you don't necessarily connect the dots together, but like when I was a kid, I used to design this magazine with my friend and then we'd print it out, like really lo-fi and send it out to all the [00:05:00] neighbors and there'd be like little competitions that you could enter in the magazine and everything.

[00:05:03] Liz Mosley: I wish I had a copy. I need to try and find one somewhere. But it's funny when you look back and realize that kind of the things that you love now have often always been there. Like you just didn't know how to name them or what they were. And I feel like at that point I had no idea what graphic design was, but 

[00:05:21] Liz Mosley: I actually thought I was gonna be a photographer and I used to spend hours taking pho, black and white photos. I went to a school that had a quite a good art department and there was basically a cupboard that the art teacher turned into a, like a developing room.

[00:05:34] Liz Mosley: So I used to spend hours in the cup developing my own photos and they were usually of, reflections in puddles, ' cause there was loads of those in Cardi. So I went around, I'm taking these really arty pictures of reflections in puddles. but then I did, I did a foundation course, which is basically like a year where you can try all the different creative disciplines.

[00:05:54] Liz Mosley: And one of the things that I've always struggled with is niching down and [00:06:00] like picking one specialist area. And so I discovered graphic design and to me it felt like the discipline where I could bring in. lots of different things that I loved. even if I wasn't the person taking the photographs or doing the illustrations, like I did get to do some of that, but I was the person who was bringing it all together at the end.

[00:06:21] Liz Mosley: And so I think that's why I fell in love with it as a discipline. And then basically, yeah, studied it at for degree, and then I've been working as a designer ever since, which I think is really rare, is I feel like I have had quite a sort of linear career path on paper in my head. not so much like it's gone all over the place, but in paper it's I worked in an agency, I worked in house, then I worked for myself.

[00:06:45] Liz Mosley: Obviously it's not that simple and it isn't that linear, but a lot of my friends, who studied with me aren't working in graphic design anymore. So I guess that's a bit more unusual to have stayed in the same kind of, yeah, [00:07:00] like career path.

[00:07:02] Radim Malinic: Yeah. it's a nearly straight line, and it's a good line because youyou're making the volume of your knowledge, obviously broader and broader ever since. But I know graphic designers who are now in insurance or in music industry, there's a lot of people that have totally left the industry and started something completely different.

[00:07:21] Radim Malinic: I know, I used to admire this illustrator 20 years ago, and even to become a hairdresser, I was like, you are really good. Can you just make stuff so I can copy you? 

[00:07:32] Liz Mosley: I think what I've realized is that just because you are good at something, if you don't enjoy the process of the business, like that's not enough. Is it just being good at something?

[00:07:44] 

[00:07:44] Radim Malinic: none of my guests ever mentioned Blue Peter. that is a spectacular one. Because for those who don't know, how would you describe Blue Pizza? 

[00:07:51] Liz Mosley: It is I mean it wasn't just Blue Peter. There was a few programs, there was like one called Art Attack as well. It was basically just like kids programming on the BBC [00:08:00] where they had these sort of like daily or weekly shows, but there was always like a creative segment in it where they showed you how to make something.

[00:08:07] Liz Mosley: So it was like a tutorial. So it was like, go and get this toilet roll and go and get this and that and then you can make this thing too. And I just used to love following along with those and I was just always making things. And I think, my, like I do, I am really grateful to my parents because they were totally up for, if I was like, I wanna make this massive paper mache, thing.

[00:08:31] Liz Mosley: They were like, okay, let's do this, let's make this happen. And they would help me, get what I needed to do it. and I'm not sure, like all parents would it, it's a bit of a faff and it's quite a lot of work and it makes a lot of mess. I'm not sure all parents would be up for that.

[00:08:45] Liz Mosley: So I think I'm, I am very grateful that they allowed me to, explore and play so young. And then, like you said, the foundation course. the foundation course. I wish everybody, even if that you don't go into the creative industry, I wish everybody got to do it because it's [00:09:00] basically a year where you get to play like in a, with no pressure because yeah, you had to do a final project, but it wasn't your degree, so it was not like you were stressing about whether you got like a first or a two one or whatever.

[00:09:12] Liz Mosley: And so to be able to have a whole year of playing creatively with the sole purpose of working out like what you wanna do, like that is just unheard of really. It is. It is such an amazing idea.

[00:09:27] 

[00:09:28] Radim Malinic: hat off to your parents because we both are parents and we both know that know for 15 minute of kids fun. You got four hours of tidy up. it's literally, it's at least three or four hours of tidy up. But I love that, you were encouraged to do things and I've been reading a book about David Lynch.

[00:09:43] Radim Malinic: His parents were exactly the same. They were like, they wouldn't let him to have coloring books just to, so they don't stifle his creativity. They were like, you're not gonna be coloring within the lines. You just draw your own lines. You do your own thing. And I think as a parent, it just, it makes you slightly dissonant.

[00:09:59] Radim Malinic: No, or [00:10:00] conflicted. It's I want you to have as much fun as possible, but oh my God, I've hoovered five times today already. can we do this? But I wanna talk about your dad for now, because you said he was a painter, not as a profession. 'cause he was a zoologist, but he was a painter. 

[00:10:12] Radim Malinic: what did you get to see him do? Paint, create influence. You. 

[00:10:16] Liz Mosley: when we were kids, he actually did a sabbatical, his work offered a sabbatical and we went and lived in Spain for a year. So it was basically a year where he, could almost go and it was almost like a foundation course for him. It was like a year where he could go and explore something related to his career.

[00:10:33] Liz Mosley: So his specialist area was birds. So he was obsessed with birds, like watching them catch, he used to catch them in our garden and ring them, you know, all sorts. so we went to Spain 'cause he wanted to work on this sort of I guess research project over there. And so I went to school there and it was a really amazing year, but that where we lived, it was a place called Segovia, which is like a town maybe like about an hour from Madrid.

[00:10:57] Liz Mosley: And it's got this massive aqueduct and it [00:11:00] had this incredible. Castle, And my dad just did the most amazing painting of this castle. that's the most sort of defining thing that I remember seeing him paint and, like the light was amazing. And what was so nice is that he put it up in the house when we got back and it was just this really nice memento and like memory of this very defined year that we had in our childhood.

[00:11:22] Liz Mosley: so yes, stuff like that. But, he'd often sit and draw with me or,like he didn't get to do it that often, but he just really enjoyed it and was really good at it. But the same with photography as well, like he really combines his of photography and his love of.

[00:11:37] 

[00:11:38] Liz Mosley: nature and animals, so he is always got these like big lenses. He is off, like photographing some interesting flower or some interesting like bird that he's just, and like still to this day, we went on holiday a couple of weeks ago and we went to this nature reserve and we all had to wait for hours while my dad sat there taking photos.

[00:11:59] Liz Mosley: So, um, yeah, [00:12:00] it was good.

[00:12:01] Radim Malinic: I think you had a direct influence on what you, what you did next because you were taking pictures of, reflections and puddles in black and white. can you make a card if even gloomy? Yes, I can do that. Yeah.

[00:12:10] Radim Malinic: It's puddles, it's rain and it's reflection. You know what, let's make it black and white.

[00:12:14] Radim Malinic: Yeah, I don't wanna talk Ill of Cardiff, but it's nice to sort offind that link because as I said at the top of this conversation, like you and I talk a lot about various things, but I never knew on any of these things about you. that, that's really interesting 

[00:12:29] Liz Mosley: Those things I don't think I've ever shared anywhere, to be honest.

[00:12:32] Radim Malinic: you would like to think that you can influence your kids by being something you want them to be, but it's your actions,if you want them to be a content pianist, unless you play piano in the house, they really need to want it on their own so much.

[00:12:44] Radim Malinic: But if you show them the breadcrumbs, if you show them the way, if you. Almost liberate even more liberated creativity and create those open conditions that they can feel, so easy and creating, they can feel so easy and expressing and actually led them allowed to have almost every [00:13:00] emotion that makes them more wholesome, creative human, people, whatever you wanna label them for the future.

[00:13:06] Radim Malinic: But it's nice to know that's how the influence was for you. Because if you go if you get to learn from the young age, that no is mainly the answer, you're like, oh,really? What can I do? Because, why do kids misbehave? Because they want to make their own choices.

[00:13:23] Radim Malinic: They wanna have at least some decision, some autonomy about their little lives. And if they don't, they will, show you that there needs to be some decisions, made by them.The reason I ask you all these questions about your childhood is because the way you've put your trajectory of your career, you've given yourself permission to do lots of interesting things.

[00:13:42] Radim Malinic: you said you were agency side, then you've started on your own and I think you told me that you wish you had started sooner. your creative business. 'cause sometimes it feels like you might be feeling like, oh, am I behind or am I, as you can see, people who have already been doing it for a lot longer, [00:14:00] and you've started your podcast and through one of your experiences of getting guests on your show, you've started something which has become almost your sort of well-known manifesto in this industry.

[00:14:12] Radim Malinic: Because your name gets mentioned in the rooms, you're not in. And people are nodding. So last time I had you name mentioned in a room was Adobe Community Breakfast Meet Up, and Claudia said, oh, there's someone called Liz Mosey. And she started this rejection challenge. And people are like, oh, wow. Yeah.

[00:14:28] Radim Malinic: this seems really interesting. This is really clever. And it's become what I call singular. Like we all go for rejection, but you've decided to make it a public facing expression of your work and build a personal brand around it. So for those who may not have heard of your rejection experience, that sort of kickstarted all of this.

[00:14:51] Radim Malinic: let's start connecting the dots there. 

[00:14:53] 

[00:14:54] Liz Mosley: it's interesting. So can I tell a little side story before I tell you about the rejection? 

[00:14:58] Liz Mosley: So last week [00:15:00] I gave a talk and I, it wasn't about the rejection thing, but it was about my experience as a designer and I tried to make it really relatable and someone came up to me afterwards and they said.

[00:15:10] Liz Mosley: That they find the design industry really intimidating and that I came across really down to earth and that they really like, appreciated that, like it felt relatable to them. And I think that lit a light bulb for me because I was like, actually, if I think about it, all of the things that I share online come under this sort of like desire to make.

[00:15:32] Liz Mosley: The design industry, I guess like more approachable, more community focused, like less what it was when I was younger. I think the reason that I didn't start sooner with my own business is I just never felt like I belonged in the design industry. I never felt like I was a part of it, and I almost lent too much into that.

[00:15:51] Liz Mosley: And because I didn't feel part of it, I took myself out of it and I just plotted along doing my thing, but I wasn't part of the community. And it's only in the last sort of [00:16:00] five or six years that I've really thrown myself into the community, which has had a hugely positive impact. But I feel like the rejection challenge falls under the same thing where the,like I experienced a rejection.

[00:16:14] Liz Mosley: Processed how I felt about the rejection and then realized like, this is something that every single person's going through, but not many people talk about it because obviously we wanna like present, like our best, most professional, most successful selves. And so I guess I figured, maybe I can be the person who, or not the only person, but a person who reminds people that actually this is just a normal part of the creative process.

[00:16:42] Liz Mosley: Because I think if you expect something that's hard. It's a lot easier to deal with it, like knowing that it's gonna happen because you are like, oh, actually I don't need to worry about this. This is just part of the creative process. It's the same when, like, when I'm designing branding, I don't know if this happens to you, Radim, but I've, there's loads of memes [00:17:00] about it online, but basically there's always a part where I'm like, this is horrible.

[00:17:05] Liz Mosley: like it, I call it like the dark night of the salt, and it's almost like part of the process I have to go through. And I, when it happens now, I know that means I've nearly got there. Like I'm nearly there because I'm like, oh, this is, this is feeling hard. Oh. But that means that I've nearly found the sort of solution, and now it doesn't freak me out because I know that it's part of the process.

[00:17:27] Liz Mosley: And actually it means that I'm close. When I was like a young designer, it would send me off into an exec existential crisis. am I good enough? am I, is this terrible? like I'd really doubt myself. And I just think that with all of these. Sort of hard things that you have to go through as a creative, it's not about removing the friction and it's not about taking away the hard thing.

[00:17:49] Liz Mosley: It's about sort of processing and dealing with the hard thing, like in a healthier, better way. And so I, yeah, so I think, the reason that I [00:18:00] wanted to share about the rejection challenge publicly was that then people can look and be like, oh, Liz is getting rejected, so it's okay if I get rejected.

[00:18:08] Liz Mosley: so that, I think that's, I, a lot of this I've pieced together after the fact. I didn't think about all that when I started it, but now I'm realizing how it fits into the bigger picture, of what I wanna do with my career and how I want to share things.

[00:18:22] Radim Malinic: With the branding process, when you said, sometimes it feels really hard and now it's getting better, I feel there are certain phases of our lives where it just makes more sense.

[00:18:32] Liz Mosley: when you get more experience of this, you tackle the problem faster and with different perspective, different view because oh my god. I mean I, I've, I can tell you zillions of experiences when I just wanted to give up, but I found that in that mix of people I was in, I didn't speak enough for myself.

[00:18:54] Radim Malinic: I could have done more, I could have owned a process, I could have actually, I. [00:19:00] Look after the next step because when you're younger, you expect a lot of things to go well. It's like I'm finally in charge of my life. I'm in charge of my career, my creativity. I'm gonna do this and I'm bringing this to the world, and hopefully it will work.

[00:19:14] Radim Malinic: you don't even think that it's not gonna work, and then it doesn't because you realize, oh, I'm following people's orders. I'm following people's opinions. I'm here. I don't wanna speak out too you much in case they think that I say something stupid, but because you haven't spoken and you're waiting on somebody else to get it right, often things go wrong.

[00:19:33] Radim Malinic: And I found myself once and I don't want to talk too much about my experiences because it's not here for you, but I was once commissioned by an agency to do a branding for your nation's league, for basically for U afa. I had two weeks. I had, I. To do two routes. The creative director was not on my side.

[00:19:52] Radim Malinic: He found whole with everything. And I was like, this is a disaster. I didn't feel like I [00:20:00] had his help, but when I reflected on this, I was like, I should have been looking after this. I don't care like how well or how badly someone does it. I need to look after the narrative. Because when everything's said and done, how well did I do it?

[00:20:16] Radim Malinic: Like, how is the accountability? How's my accountability? I can be commissioned because I'm, considered to be good enough, but I need to look after the process. I need to do this. Aunties need to be in charge. And it kinda led me back thinking

[00:20:29] Radim Malinic: most of us started creative careers before social media.

[00:20:33] Radim Malinic: Before social media. We had websites and people could find us and anything you wanted to get or achieve, you had to go to it. Like you were not just waiting, saying, this is my beautiful shop window amongst 3.2 billion others on Instagram, or 4 million on behind.

[00:20:52] Radim Malinic: You had to go and send an email. You had to go and pick up the phone if you wanted something. It was, I believe, like it was a lot more proactive. [00:21:00] And because that was the norm, you were only gonna hear back from one in 20 people. Like it was just because, in books were full or other peoples in books were full, there was fewer people doing this.

[00:21:12] Radim Malinic: But I didn't even think about some of the stuff as a rejection because you were lucky to hear from anyone. 

[00:21:18] Radim Malinic: I think social media has changed things because like you said, we can share our work in a way that we never hadbeen able to before. I think the mindset shift that I had to have and that a lot of people. Have said the same to me, is this idea that if I show up and share my work, eventually someone will.

[00:21:40] Liz Mosley: It's like very not proactive, eventually someone will notice and the opportunities that I want will come to me. But for example, if you wanna be, if you are a designer and you wanna speak on a stage, unless you say that to someone, like no one's gonna put those dots together. and maybe someone might have seen you [00:22:00] on, somewhere and thought, oh, that person would actually be a really good speaker.

[00:22:03] Liz Mosley: But they're unlikely to go out of their way to try and give you that opportunity. So you need to find a way to say it so that the right person might hear it and give you that first opportunity. And I think it is about being proactive and I think in the past it was about, people noticing our work and giving us a platform, and now it's almost we have to make the platform ourselves and try and get in front of the right people.

[00:22:30] Radim Malinic: The beautiful thing about being young, you don't know, you're not ready, but you want to do everything. When you are ready, you're like, I can't be bothered. And this goes to so many different things, promoting yourself, especially like we're talking about pre-social, like sending our postcards, booklets, emails, trying to speak to people, giving out stuff.

[00:22:53] Radim Malinic: Like it was almost shameless. It was like, if I don't do this, nothing will come back. The number of [00:23:00] times I have asked to speak, the number of times I even paid for myself to speak, to go even to the other side of the world is because I wanted to be there. 'cause that's the opportunity, because not many people.

[00:23:12] Radim Malinic: can see the behind the scenes.

[00:23:14] Radim Malinic: I. But that may be, for me, might be misleading. Like how many times, have you got a lineup when someone's just holding the event on together by a shoestring, but wants to create something for the community, wants to give people an opportunity to be seen or to share a message. And it could be so misleading thinking people are like, oh,speakers should be paid for everything, or this should be done that way, or this should be done that way.

[00:23:36] Radim Malinic: It's like when you break it apart on a granular level, it's like the reality is totally different. It's like seeing a headline and not even reading the bylines or the article. So when I see sometimes you posting, stuff about Hey, you need to go, you need to go and ask. I'm like, what is the other way?

[00:23:53] Radim Malinic: Because everything I feel like from this side, like 99.9 things [00:24:00] I've ever got was because I asked. 

[00:24:02] Liz Mosley: But I don't think, I think there's a lot of people,

[00:24:05] Radim Malinic: that don't realize that, so that look at other people's opportunities, is that context collect, isn't it? Because we see. We see other people online and we see a part of the story and we fill in the gaps and we often fill in the gaps incorrectly.

[00:24:20] Liz Mosley: So someone might look at what you are doing rdi, and they might think, oh, RDI speaks loads. people must really know about him. He must be really in demand. they must just come to him. And it's all very easy. so they don't necessarily see the bit of the story where you've, like you've paid for yourself to go and speak at events to prove yourself, the work that's gone into that.

[00:24:42] Liz Mosley: And so I think that's, we all need that reminder like constantly is that we are only seeing one bit of the story is not the full story. And again, I think that's why I wanted to share about the rejection process, because I think, I've done it myself. A lot of people look at the opportunities that other people have got [00:25:00] and assume that they're just sitting around and there's a landing in their lap.

[00:25:03] Liz Mosley: And that isn't actually the reality. And I think what you've described. Is more accurate, like actually you have to go and ask for it. And I think it's really encouraging to hear, like someone like you who's spoken on lots of incredible stages. Like it's encouraging to me as someone who wants to do that, to be like, okay, Ratti went out there and he asked for it.

[00:25:22] Liz Mosley: That means I can do that too. Do you know what I mean? It's like you almost need to see it to know that you can do it.

[00:25:28] 

[00:25:28] Radim Malinic: I can't now go without a day hearing the word rejection and thinking about you like, okay, I'm gonna make this note about rejection and this note about rejection and this note about rejection. 

[00:25:39] Liz Mosley: It makes me laugh that's what people think about when they think of

[00:25:42] Radim Malinic: Butto be honest, It's singular because there has been obviously a lot other people dealing with rejection and doing public projects on rejection. But this is yours because we almost try to pretend. No, my understanding and the feeling from the industry, we try to pretend [00:26:00] rejection doesn't exist. it. should be sunshine and ice cream all the time. I've showed up, I'm here, I've got all the tools. I can click all the buttons. I've got my 500,000 followers, but it's not happening. So one of the nodes I've made was between conversation between Arthur Brooks and a rich role, and they were talking about, failure, disappointment, loss, that kind of stuff that sort of shake us up.

[00:26:23] Radim Malinic: And Arthur Brooks said, when something bad happens, loss, rejection, detachment, write It down and write the initial feeling. Then month later, write down what you've learned and what was the benefit of that rejection, because there always is a plus side, isn't it? 

[00:26:41] Liz Mosley: Yeah, absolutely. And I think the key is to not get sucked into having a victim mentality or a, just like a negative mentality about it. 'cause if you get sucked into thinking, Well, this was one of the things that I had to work through and process was it was recognizing that when I got a [00:27:00] rejection, I would tell all these bad stories to myself in my head that weren't necessarily true.

[00:27:06] Liz Mosley: And so the shift that needed to happen was that I just chose to stop doing that. never completely stop, 'cause this is gonna be something that I gotta work on the rest of my life. But, I made a decision that I am not gonna let my brain go down that path telling myself a negative story.

[00:27:22] Liz Mosley: And instead I'm gonna be like, okay, this didn't feel good, but there's something that I can learn something from this and then turn it into a positive. And I think it's exa, I think that's a really great process to do. write it down, the, the wisdom of taking a month so that you are like a bit further away from the re your rejection.

[00:27:40] Liz Mosley: You can then compare like what you're feeling, intense feeling was in that moment. And then what you are feeling is. once you've reflected on it and what I've noticed for me is that, I love like thinking about all of this sort of stuff, so it's probably quicker than maybe other people, but my process, my processing time, [00:28:00] like the time it takes me to get over a rejection or get to that good place is so much shorter now.

[00:28:08] Liz Mosley:  so in the past maybe it would've taken me a month now it might take me a couple of days bef and then I can see, oh, okay, I can see the positives here. I can see that this wasn't the right opportunity for me, or that actually there's something that I need to work on here. Yeah, it's hard to, it is hard to hear the negative, but now I've got some really useful information for how I can be better next time.

[00:28:30] Radim Malinic: It is great to hear when you talk about like that shorter time, like how do you overcome this actually, how do you ize it? How'd you get over it? in prep for this conversation, I watched, a Ted talk by someone, I can't pronounce their name, but the talk was called a hundred Days of Rejection. 

[00:28:47] Liz Mosley: Yeah, I, yeah, I seen that. 

[00:28:48] Liz Mosley: Yeah. 

[00:28:49] Radim Malinic: you, have you watched it? yeah.

[00:28:50] Radim Malinic: And it the whole thing fell apart on day three because. He wasn't rejected anymore. Like he'd ask for something ridiculous, which was donuts in Olympic colors. And it [00:29:00] opened doors to everything. It was like, oh, it was, I was on the news, I was in blogs, I was in media.

[00:29:05] Radim Malinic: It was just like, because someone made me Olympic color donuts and he made a video about it. I think the rejection and unfeeling of being rejected goes so much deeper than just basic surface level in most cases. Because we come with so much, in most cases, there's so much shame, vulnerability, anxiety, and security like through the childhood, through school system.

[00:29:30] Radim Malinic: You know, going through that big sort of washing machine of growing up in adolescence where we are not always told that we're doing everything right. We don't always have the right. Mentors and people, or actually, or even parents around to actually tell us, you know what, it's okay. this is fine.

[00:29:45] Radim Malinic: This is part of the process. So we have this sort of, the sort of almost legacy traumas. We also take on our parents traumas because some of our parents didn't even know they can actually fix what they've been through.

[00:29:59] Radim Malinic: So we carry [00:30:00] this.

[00:30:00] Radim Malinic: burden with us until we realized maybe I don't need to, maybe there's a way to actually allow myself to appreciate where I am, be actually have a immense gratitude for how far we got ourselves to and appreciate the moment because I remember

[00:30:18] Radim Malinic: One of your stories from Adobe Max in Miami when you said, I can't believe I'm here. 

[00:30:25] Liz Mosley: As it happened, I did a therapy session on, I can't believe, because through some of the journeys of in my life, I found myself achieving a lot of things I never thought would be possible.

[00:30:38] Radim Malinic: And I'm standing on a balcony or in my new house with beautiful family around me, everything's amazing. And I'm like, I can't believe this is my life. But I was deeply scared that at any moment I can lose it. 

[00:30:51] Liz Mosley: Yeah.

[00:30:52] Radim Malinic: And you're like, oh, I don't feel right. And my wife's maybe it's time to see, do another session.

[00:30:57] Radim Malinic: Which I do a lot of equine. I do equine [00:31:00] therapy as the thing right now. So I went to see a therapist and she took two horses and she's okay, this is your heart and this is your mind. And why? Why do you feel like this? Like you cannot really say, I can't believe this because that's a negative language.

[00:31:16] Radim Malinic: I can't believe this because we really have created up to that point of rejection. Up to that point. We've worked really hard on all of this, but do we really allow ourself to understand or appreciate our,our achievements? Because you were in Adobe Max Miami for very good reason, because you worked on all of it until that 

[00:31:36] Liz Mosley: Yeah. Yeah. And that is a really good challenge to hear. I think. like you, I've done therapy and there's still a lot to unpack and I think, it is messy, isn't it? It really is messy. And it's, the title of your talk,what's it, calm waters, how to find, yeah.

[00:31:55] Liz Mosley: In creative storms, like that really resonates that sort of language because [00:32:00] it's never, it isn't ever, there are periods of calm waters, but there's also the storm, you know, like you almost need those two things together to be able to appreciate the calm waters, like you said. So yeah, I feel like I've got a lot of things still to process with that.

[00:32:13] Liz Mosley: even last week I got to speak at Adobe Max London and there's still part of me that was like, oh my goodness, like I can't, yeah, don't say it, but, it was more that, I think what it was more that is the recognition that. Six years ago, I'd just come off my second maternity leave. My confidence was at an all time low and the Liz of six years ago didn't have the capacity to dream this big.

[00:32:41] Liz Mosley: And I think for me, what's been interesting is reflecting back on that Liz of six years ago, seeing how far I've come and acknowledging that I could not have dreamed this stuff. Now I can, now my dreams are like, wild and all over the place, but back then, just because of where I was in my life and what I'd [00:33:00] just been through and everything, like I, I didn't have the capacity to dream.

[00:33:04] Liz Mosley: So it's, it is less about, I can't believe I'm here and it's more about Liz of six years ago would've struggled to believe that this is where I would be. and that's actually a really nice sort of reflection to look back on. and there's I, to go off on, there's a couple of things I wanted to say based on things that you've said.

[00:33:23] 

[00:33:23] Liz Mosley: One of the things that I really noticed, so you talked about how that Ted talk, you watched, like after three days it fell apart because people just said yes to him. And what I noticed is that when I had taken away my fear of rejection, I had, I showed up so much more confidently in a way that I hadn't done before.

[00:33:47] Liz Mosley: And that confidence, if you have confidence in yourself, other people have confidence in you. And so then that's when the same as that guy that started happening to me, where other people would start to approach me and [00:34:00] I think it's because I showed up in a new way, like in a new, more confident way that they, were like, okay, like Liz, is that confidence?

[00:34:09] Liz Mosley: I don't know. There's something like magnetic about that, isn't it? Where it's like, okay, I. we can see what Liz is doing. She's showing up. We are gonna ask her to do X, Y, Z. And so what I noticed was, and actually what was really funny is that I've made a list of all the things that I wanted to pitch for and some of those people came and asked me to do it before I even had an opportunity to pitch for them.

[00:34:28] Liz Mosley: so that was one thing, like I think by going through a process like that, it helps you to show up with confidence. And then I think the other thing that links back to something else you said, like a big process for me has been getting comfortable with being uncomfortable. So I think, it's that willingness.

[00:34:49] Liz Mosley: I hate the whole push yourself out of the comfort zone messaging, because I think there isn't enough nuance to it. But I think it's that ability. To just push [00:35:00] yourself that to the next step. like it's not like you jump from over here. Never having done a public talk to oh, now I'm speak, like now I'm doing a TED Talk or whatever.

[00:35:08] Liz Mosley: that's not the trajectory, but it's like, okay, what's the next step? That feels a little bit uncomfortable, but I feel confident that I can get there. And I think for me, that has been recognizing that and almost embracing that discomfort has like really helped.

[00:35:27] Radim Malinic: So much to unpack. Love it. Absolutely love it. 

[00:35:29] Liz Mosley: It's like a therapy session. Radim. We have.

[00:35:32] Radim Malinic: I'll send you the invoice just after when we finish so much to talk about Fear of rejection. Fear of rejection, like when you think about it, it goes to a social exchange. So it's in Oliver Bergman's book, meditation for Mortals. Who uses an example 

[00:35:48] Radim Malinic: in his book who says, if I don't reply to someone's email, I hope that they understand I'm busy, but if someone doesn't reply to my email, I believe they hate me. 

[00:35:57] Radim Malinic: It's how we hold it within [00:36:00] us. And I think this is where we can change that narrative because Yeah.

[00:36:02] Radim Malinic: you, I made a note saying false narratives, like you tell yourself, am I worthy of it? Whereas there's someone on that stage who potentially shouldn't be on that stage and they are, they believe they're a hundred percent meant to be there and whatever they're doing potentially for them is the best thing ever.

[00:36:17] Radim Malinic: it's like almost having that sort of inner feedback. am I should, I would I? Because if you focus on going forward, it's a totally different story. 

[00:36:26] Liz Mosley: I don't know if you found this, but one of the things that actually really helped me as well was I get a lot of pitches for my podcast, and so thinking about the reasons that I reject people for my podcast actually helped me. Think quite often it's that I feel overwhelmed and I can't be bothered to go through the inbox with all the, all of the emails.

[00:36:47] Liz Mosley: I'm like, it's, it's one of those things I know I need to do, but I don't really have time to, or you know,it's that I've just covered the same topic with someone else or I just don't feel like I personally click with that person. Which doesn't mean that they're [00:37:00] not right for someone else's podcast.

[00:37:01] Liz Mosley: They just might not be right for mine. And so thinking of all those like different reasons just makes you realize, like it might just be that someone is ignoring their inbox 'cause they feel overwhelmed. it might not be that they hate you, which is obviously Yeah, I totally relate to that.

[00:37:17] Liz Mosley: 'cause that's usually my default. oh, they hate me.

[00:37:21] Radim Malinic: as I treat my pitches in my inbox, like pre-social media inbox. it's just I can't believe he even sent me to this. I can't even spend time. And thinking about replying because it's just, people should do better. it's not that difficult to work out how to get it right.

[00:37:36] Radim Malinic: And if someone wants to pitch on your show or my show, the only advice is be human. Listen to the show. Be human, and tell me the reason. What is it that you've got to value Rust? What is your value that you can share? what is your story? Because lots of people wanna show up and talk about themselves, which is lovely if you get the opportunity, but it's not gonna get too far.

[00:37:57] Radim Malinic: You might be on your friend's podcast, which is great, [00:38:00] but if you want to go and be a part of a bigger narrative, like what is your piece of puzzle that you can actually add to this? Because again, that takes us back to your core. It's not, let's call it core messaging. you've become known for this because you've been vocal and relatable.

[00:38:15] Radim Malinic: Therefore people found almost that little bit of solace in your messaging, and that's giving you a platform and a spotlight to actually talk about things that. We both wish that were in more and more prevalent and prominence 20 years ago when we really needed to hear this because industry was different.

[00:38:33] Radim Malinic: It was more about, look, we are amazing. We've got amazing clients, and this is our work. Whereas we've turned the table onto the fact like we are human and we also had to happen to be creative. But the human side of things connects with people so much quicker and so much easier. So my advice would be like, listen to the show and what is it that you want to be about?

[00:38:53] Radim Malinic: Because Yeah.

[00:38:55] Radim Malinic: you get lots of people, they're like, Hey, I wanna do more speaking. I wanna do more podcasts. I'm like, [00:39:00] about what? what is your message? Because there's lots of messages out there and there's lots of, there's even more non messages out there. You don't have to be everywhere 

[00:39:10] Liz Mosley: And this is where it comes back to branding really, isn't it? Because you mentioned, you mentioned at the beginning about having a personal brand. I think so much of the success of a personal brand is the clarity with which you can communicate that message.

[00:39:25] Radim Malinic: Absolutely. I agree with that. And I think personal branding from the perspective how I see your work. I don't particularly know who you've branded and what you did as a creative, but I know what you stand for and I think that's the more important part. And I feel like we've crossed the bridge between, oh look, I have to be amazing, creative, to be known, loved and cherished and appreciated and accepted.

[00:39:45] Radim Malinic: Whereas being verbal about a process, being verbal about what you stand for, what's your purpose, what's your values, gets you different seat of the table and it gets you the seat at the table much faster. 

[00:39:56] Radim Malinic: I think the philosophy of creativity and creative process [00:40:00] is a little more transcending now 

[00:40:01] Radim Malinic: Because there's more nothing on the personal and philosophical level, like how we connected and making sense of things around us through storytelling, through conversations, through all of this.

[00:40:12] Liz Mosley: Yeah, I was just gonna say storytelling. I think the power of storytelling, I think we don't acknowledge it, and we're not strategic enough about how we tell the stories because I interviewed, this amazing lady called Hillary Salzman on my podcast. It was all about storytelling and like she, she broke it down.

[00:40:31] Liz Mosley: There's a reason why we remember stories better. like it, it helps us process the world. It helps us process our experience. And there's a formula to those stories. And I think once you can recognize the formula, and often we do it naturally without even thinking. So like with the rejection challenge, I didn't go into it thinking, does this fit the storytelling formula?

[00:40:52] Liz Mosley: But it had it already because it was like, here's my problem, here's my adversity and here's how I'm [00:41:00] gonna solve the problem and come out the other side. And like the other day, I mentioned before I did this talk last is all fresh in my mind, which is why I keep mentioning it. But I did this talk last week and the reason.

[00:41:11] Liz Mosley: That it connected with people is not because I said, oh, here's this thing that I designed. It's because I told the story of the process of designing it, and it was difficult. And there were points, there was like problems that I had to solve. So I shared, again, it was like that storytelling thing of here's my problem, here's what was really hard about it, and then here's how I solve that problem.

[00:41:31] Liz Mosley: And everybody, that's how we all process the world and that's how we connect with things. So if you could, and it's, the thing that's crazy about it is it's actually such a simple formula, but once you can see it in everything, then exactly like you said, you can use your words more effectively to connect with people because you know what's gonna help them connect to what you're saying.

[00:41:56] Radim Malinic: That formula reminded me of a conversation I had with, an [00:42:00] editor from Creative Factor from New York. I called Martin Ew. And he, in my opinion, is a true storyteller. And he literally spelled out the formula of storytelling in three words. And I'm like. Why did I not know that? And he said, it's a character conflict, conclusion sorted.

[00:42:18] Radim Malinic: I'm like, oh, could you not have told me that 15 years ago? Like it. was like, because we can talk about like the number of articles that have been popping up for years. oh, designers should be storytellers. Okay. How, like I've read those articles, I felt intimidated by, because I'm like, at that time I couldn't even string a sentence together properly in front of a people, no, in the room.

[00:42:40] Radim Malinic: I was like, oh, how? Why? No. 'cause it's this weird narrative like, oh you should be this. Or Designer should code, A designer should do this. And okay, let's give it a go if it makes sense. But would you like to know. allude to how to do it? And I think, this is why being more open about it actually makes this [00:43:00] whole industry more liberated because.

[00:43:02] Radim Malinic: All of a sudden doesn't seem as scary or just, or as complicated or as weird because, there's always a question like, oh, should I be saying yes to this? Should I be saying no to this? is this the right choice to make or not? I believe there's something called like anatomy of opportunity.

[00:43:18] Radim Malinic: does the rejection itself, like obviously we talked about earlier, like a, the no can turn into a Yes pretty quickly and sometimes a yes, which should have been a no. It turns out to be a really toxic Yes. And you're like, I really regret making this decision.  So with your systems, do you have, a sort of measure of anatomy of opportunity?

[00:43:38] Radim Malinic: do you ever think how you decide, do you have a processes? 

[00:43:42] Liz Mosley: I think for me it always comes back to, like what my purpose of my business is and what my, so I think there's like purpose, there's goals and there's values. I think it's those three things that I use to make those decisions. like I mentioned at the beginning, my purpose with my [00:44:00] business is to help small businesses with my, their branding and marketing.

[00:44:03] Liz Mosley: So does it, is it gonna help someone? And sometimes it's like a, it'll be create, it'll be more niche down than that, but, does it help those people? So that's the purpose, the goals are like, more personal, what do I wanna achieve with my business? And then the values, like what's important to me, there's some companies that if they came knocking at my door, it would be a hard no because I know that their values don't align, with what I think is important.

[00:44:30] Liz Mosley: Whereas there's others, where it would be like an immediate yes. And I think that just helps me make decisions more effectively. And sometimes I still get 'em wrong all the time. there's so many times where you do a project or you work with someone and you're halfway through and you're like, I should have listened to the red flag at the beginning and I didn't, and now I need to learn from this situation.

[00:44:50] Liz Mosley: I'll be better equipped next time to make the right decision. But yeah, I think that's, I, it's not like a formal process or anything, but those are the three [00:45:00] elements that help me to know, what to pursue and also what to say yes to when it comes my way.

[00:45:08] Radim Malinic: Do you remember the opportunity that you nearly didn't take on, but it changed your career as it is today? 

[00:45:16] Liz Mosley: Oh, do I remember an opportunity? Oh, 

[00:45:19] Radim Malinic: Oh. 

[00:45:20] Radim Malinic: do I, oh, I didn't know. Is there, was there something that you would've said no to? You didn't say no, and then actually it turned out to be better. No, I can't think of one of those. I can think of a situation where, there was an opportunity that everybody, like from like an outside perspective, I looked crazy for saying no to, and it was totally the right decision for me to say no to, but I can't not, and then spring to mind. I think there must be lots of

[00:45:50] Radim Malinic: Is it possible to elaborate on that decision, on that project? What? the thing that you said no to, when people thought it was crazy to you, do you know what it was? 

[00:45:59] Liz Mosley: Yeah, I know what it was. I'm not [00:46:00] gonna share it publicly. I'll tell you about it later, but, it's not really, yeah, it's, it is not that helpful to share the actual thing. It was, but I can't think of one where I was gonna say no and then said yes and it would change because I think.

[00:46:14] Liz Mosley: I think I have got quite clearly on what my values are and but I get your point. Like sometimes I might be wrong on that. Yeah. Sometimes you have to take a risk, I think, and you have to try something. the way that I think, you know, we talked about that negative mindset and that positive mindset.

[00:46:32] Liz Mosley: I think even when things don't go well, like where I've ignored a red flag, but I've done it anyway and it hasn't gone amazingly. I try and see that as an opportunity to learn and an opportunity to refine my values or refine my goal. sometimes I, actually, okay, this kind of answers your question.

[00:46:52] Liz Mosley: I, there's been a lot of instances where I've done something. Oh no, this doesn't answer your question. No, I don't think I can answer [00:47:00] it. I think basically there's been a lot of situations where I've done something because I thought that I should, and then I've realized that wasn't actually my goal, that was someone else's goal.

[00:47:08] Liz Mosley: like I think that is part of the problem with it being in the social media world now, is that we see what everybody else's doing and we see what everybody else's goals are. And it is really easy to get distracted by that. And I've had so many situations in my career where I've thought, oh, I should, this is what I should do next.

[00:47:25] Liz Mosley: Oh, I should do this. And quite often I do them and then I'm like, oh no, this isn't for me. And then you have to have the confidence to be like, it's okay that other people want that, but I don't actually want that. So I'm all for experimenting and trying things. but yeah, I can't, I keep, I'm gonna have to mull that one over and get back to you.

[00:47:43] Liz Mosley: Radim. 'cause I can't think of a scenario where I said, thought I should say no, but I said yes and it changed my career.

[00:47:50] Radim Malinic: I'm glad to hear about your PGV purpose goals and values because. Essentially you're talking about a strategy for your personal brand, for your creativity, for your [00:48:00] business, because it's easy to be distracted even in the slightly pre-social media world because, there's big brands that people don't work with.

[00:48:08] Radim Malinic: They're like, whoever would want me, you would work with them. I found an invoice from 2012 for 254 pounds to Coca-Cola, 

[00:48:18] 

[00:48:19] Radim Malinic: who apparently had a day's worth of budget. It was for an agency, which I will name. They had a day's worth of budget to create a, literally a advertising campaign for like service stations, like how Coke can perk you up.

[00:48:34] Radim Malinic: And I knew there was like it stunk of BS straight away. I didn't have my values. I was just bamboozled by this fact. Hey, I can have Coca-Cola in my portfolio. And we all know what happens when you pro, not when you get work in your portfolio because of a big brand or because it promises everything.

[00:48:51] Radim Malinic: It never works out, and I remember it went on for 10 days, it failed. They want me to spend another 10 days fixing it. And I'm like, what is going on here? and it, [00:49:00] did I have my purpose goals and values? Yeah.

[00:49:01] Radim Malinic: My goal was to potentially have Coca-Cola, but I put my values aside. I put my purpose aside.

[00:49:07] Radim Malinic: I was like, I'm only here for myself. And that was the wrong thing to do. So when it comes to, I think, business strategy, I loved, mark Ion from Ragged Edge who told me on my show that, as a business, we tell ourselves what we are going to do and we're gonna tell ourselves what we are not going to do, and we're gonna stick with 

[00:49:24] Liz Mosley: Yes.

[00:49:25] Liz Mosley: Yeah. and the Cleary, you get on those things. when you were talking about, earlier. What was it that we were talking about where you were like people? Oh, the storytelling. So storytelling we often think of as oh, this mystical thing that we don't really understand.

[00:49:39] Liz Mosley: And actually it's what you said, the character, conflict and the. Conclusion. And I think it's the same with strategy. Like I think strategy is one of those words where we are like, oh my goodness, what does it mean? Like it's this, it's like this really like mystical,we could never understand it.

[00:49:56] Liz Mosley: And I get so frustrated with that word because it just seems so vague. But actually it [00:50:00] is really simple as well, where it's like, having those purpose goals and values, but ultimately strategy is having a goal, making a plan to achieve it and then achieving it. Do you know what I mean? Like on, in its purest form.

[00:50:12] Liz Mosley: That is what a strategy is. And I I think the design industry is definitely guilty of this. And I'm sure lots of other industries as well, where we try to complicate things that are actually pretty simple. I like to make ourselves look important or better or whatever it is.

[00:50:30] Liz Mosley: And I find that really frustrating. But 

[00:50:32] Radim Malinic: I, I, think the best way to summarize strategy and how to make strategy actually work is when you drive the goals, when you drive the purpose, when you drive the values. Because as soon as you open yourself to other influences, to other ways of not using creativity for sale, you have to give something away.

[00:50:50] Radim Malinic: it's not all, it's not yours anymore. And I think that's why people make mistakes thinking, oh, people showed up on my doorstep because I'm amazing. I'm like, no, people showed up. 'cause they got their business [00:51:00] goals. Like they, they want you to do what they want you to do. 

[00:51:03] Radim Malinic: we can talk about it again forever. Maybe there is a, another, a weight fixture for you coming soon,

[00:51:07] Liz Mosley: Maybe I'll be your first, third visiting guest.

[00:51:12] Radim Malinic: before I let you go, I wanna know if the painting of the castle from Segovia is still somewhere in existence. 

[00:51:18] Liz Mosley: is. Yeah. I'll go and find it. It's at my parents' house. I'll go get it. Share a picture.

[00:51:23] Radim Malinic: It makes me happy that it exists because you can always draw back to that memory and that feeling, because it is been great to learn more about you. 

[00:51:32] Liz Mosley: Oh, thanks. You asked such good questions. I've literally never talked about most of this stuff before.

[00:51:37] Radim Malinic: it hit me on my head today. It was like, I've never heard you talking about this. And as I said, we talk and we, and everything that we normally talk about a is being captured in this podcast in one way or another. But it's been great to join dots and 

[00:51:49] Radim Malinic: what you do in my opinion is singular.

[00:51:52] Radim Malinic: I celebrate you on that because I. Some people might strive to, to find that singular. Some people might not even know what singular, could be in their lives, [00:52:00] so keep at it. 'cause everything that's coming your way is it's very much,some of many parts of what you're doing.

[00:52:05] Radim Malinic: So well done. Thank you.

[00:52:07] Liz Mosley: Thank you. Thank you for listening to this episode of Daring Creativity Podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions, and suggestions, So please get in touch via the email, in the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me. Radim Malinic.

[00:52:32] The audio production was done by Neil Mackay from 7 million Bucks Podcast. Thank you and I hope to see you on the next episode. [00:53:00]