Laura Cibilich, co-founder of Run, a design and advertising agency in New Zealand, shares her journey from naive graphic designer to agency owner guided by Māori values. 

Laura discusses how indigenous values aren't separate from business—they're fundamental human principles. She reveals how becoming a parent forced strategic thinking, leading to winning major clients like Niue Tourism despite being up against agencies with cafes and corporate perks. 

The conversation explores navigating neurodivergence in creative partnerships, the courage to say no to misaligned clients, and why human creativity will always matter more than AI-generated shortcuts.

Key Takeaways

• Creativity isn't taught out of people—it's about maintaining curiosity and finding the right environment to express it naturally
• Not knowing the formal rules can be an advantage, allowing you to break conventions and make unexpected discoveries
• Starting without a perfect plan isn't failure—it's part of the journey, and going back to employment to stabilize isn't defeat
• Having children forces you to think strategically about life and business, often providing the catalyst needed for serious growth
• Smaller agencies can win against corporate giants by offering passion and guarantee of being the client's priority, not smallest account
• Defining and writing down your values creates a guiding compass for decision-making, hiring, and client selection
• ADHD can be a superpower in advertising where constant idea generation is the job—understanding neurodivergence helps rather than hinders
• Indigenous values are fundamentally human values—about relationships, environment, kinship, and treating people with genuine respect and care
• Saying no to lucrative but misaligned work gets easier when you're clear on values and positioned for right-fit clients
• AI tools have their place, but human creativity rooted in culture, values, and tactile experiences cannot be replicated
• Being one of few women founders carries weight and responsibility, but sharing your story helps pave the way for others
• Long-term thinking helps navigate setbacks—bumps in the road are temporary when you maintain vision of where you're heading

Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic

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[00:00:00] 

Laura / Lauren: Yeah. I mean, we didn't start out in this niche really. but. We gradually over the years,it was moving towards te Maori, like the Maori worldview and incorporating, an indigenous lens across our work.

and that was driven by us, like as a family, me and my husband being on our journey, him exploring his culture more. And his, genealogy, wha papa we call it. and, just exploring that. And at the same time, more and more clients were coming to us for that lens as well. 

Now it's kind of part of every pitch document we receive, RFPs, the Maori culture is woven through work here in, in New Zealand, so it, very much comes from all that. [00:01:00] 

Welcome to the Daring Creativity Podcast, a show about daring to forever explore creativity that isn't about chasing shiny perfection. It's about showing up with all your doubts and imperfections and making them count. It's about becoming more of who you already are. My name is Radim Malinic I'm a designer, author, and eternally curious human being.

 I am talking to a broad range of guests who share their stories of small actions that sparked lifetime discoveries, taking one step towards the thing that made them feel most alive. 

 Let me begin this episode with a question. Are you ready to discover what happens when you dare to create? 

Radim: Today I'm talking with Laura Sibilich a co-founder of Run a Design and advertising agency in New Zealand. She shares with me her [00:02:00] journey from being a graphic designer to agency owner running a studio guided by Maori values. And how does indigenous values un separate from business? Their fundamental human principles, Laura, reveals how becoming apparent for strategic thinking leading to winning major clients, despite being up against much bigger agencies.

Our conversation explores navigating neurodivergence in creative partnerships the courage to say no to misaligned clients and why human creativity will always matter more than AI generated shortcuts. It is my pleasure to share with you my conversation with Laura Sibilicj.

Radim: Laura. it's great to have you on the show. How are you doing today?

Laura / Lauren: Yeah.

Radim: I really wanna know what it feels like to be, a creative in [00:03:00] New Zealand in 2025 and how does it influence your world?

How much of focus do you put on your local culture? I wanna know all of it but for those who may not have heard of you and your studio, how would you introduce yourself?

Laura / Lauren: Yeah, hello. I'm Laura. Laura Sibilich. I run the design and advertising agency called Run, based in New Zealand. and started it about 17 years ago. now run it with my husband Raymond, INE Mackay. And, yeah, we work a lot in the cultural space. He's Maori. It makes us one of the few indigenous owned agencies, probably in the world.

And, we lean into that, so that inspires a lot of our work,and brings clients to us as well.

Radim: So tell me about your philosophy behind your agency why you started and the positioning and the work that you do.

Laura / Lauren: Yeah. I mean, we didn't start out in this niche really. I have, a background in graphic design, so was a graphic designer many years. still think of myself as a designer, although I'm probably not on the [00:04:00] tools anymore, really, sadly. but. We gradually over the years,it was moving towards te Maori, like the Maori worldview and incorporating, an indigenous lens across our work.

and that was driven by us, like as a family, me and my husband being on our journey, him exploring his culture more. And his, genealogy, wha papa we call it. and, just exploring that. And at the same time, more and more clients were coming to us for that lens as well. 

Now it's kind of part of every pitch document we receive, RFPs, things like that. yeah, a lot of the Maori culture is woven through work here in, in New Zealand, so it, very much comes from all that.

Radim: So here's my question. You said it's kinda woven through every RFP on every pitch. Is it a collective awareness? Is it, is there sort of amplification of the values, like we need to look. local first before,bringing anything else.

Laura / Lauren: Yeah, I think so. A really [00:05:00] nice thing to bring in the indigenous culture, it very much feels like we've embraced it. And here there is a treaty t so that was signed in 1840 when, I'm not the best person to talk about all this because a lot of history and involved in it all. but yeah, when people came here, I.

it was a big thing signing in this treaty and, there's just a lot in it and, but people are, driven to include it through their work and incorporate it and it makes it, unique,genuinely from New Zealand. and that kind of makes it special.

 The new. Zealand's got kind one of the youngest populations 'cause it's only sort of 800 years old. 

Radim: It's fiercely protective of its identity. Maori arch was very much built on kinship.

It's very much like how people stick together and how they look after one another. And I think what we slightly touching on and what you're telling me so far is it feels like that kinship is very much that running theme through what, what you guys do right

now.[00:06:00] 

Laura / Lauren: Yeah. Yeah. A lot of it is about, yeah, kinship, I guess, relationships, treating people right. And also how it links into the environment as well,yeah, it all comes back to that. So I think that's quite, common across indigenous cultures across the world. it all links to the environment.

 So. It really is special and New Zealanders are really connected to the environment anyway. we're close to the ocean, we've got lots of land, It's just beautiful and it's great to incorporate that through the work as well.

Radim: it's a fascinating thing to actually look into the history because 

 that's created this societal cocktail of influences that must be unique like never else.

So. I'm gonna bring it to graphic design. Now, talking about you obviously growing up in, in place like New Zealand. What was your introduction to creativity? What was your background? What was your upbringing and that kind of stuff? Because you find yourself, well technically from, [00:07:00] to me, on the other side of the world, and I wanna know what it was like.

Laura / Lauren: Yeah. I mean, to me it was just normal, I didn't know anything else, so, doesn't matter that I'm on a little island at the bottom of the world. just grew up, loving art, loving creativity.  I believe that. Everyone is creative and some people just get it, almost taught out of them sometimes, kids get it taught out of them, which is really sad.

but I kept that and just have always been passionate about art and creativity and loved it. did like lots of coloring competitions and I was little and things like that. Lots of drawing all that was, I was that kid. and. And then just through school did art through school.

Laura / Lauren: and then took a year off to decide what I wanted to do, and did some, night classes and things like that, like photography and things like that. but yeah, decided design was it. That's what I really wanted to do. And from there, studied a, diploma in graphic design and weighed up, Doing a diploma over [00:08:00] a degree. so I could get those extra years of experience working rather than studying. Yeah. I.

Radim: Did you have any influences? was there a particular moment that you felt like, okay, I wanna be as good as this, or this makes me move like this. This is something that I wanna be the enabler, the conduit to this communication. was there anything like that?

Laura / Lauren: I kind of came into it really naive and I didn't learn about the world of graphic design or famous designers till I was studying it really. I did in my high school years, I think, end of high school I did, visit some, thinking that I wanted to be a designer, visited some studios.

asking for a, a job, part-time job or an internship or something. none of them gave me a job, but it was just, even just going in there. Some would sit down and talk with me, and even that was inspiring to me, just being, around it all and feeling the creativity in the office and I, just loved it and got inspired by that, I think.

Radim: You mentioned that you started your business [00:09:00] or that you've got your business with your husband. Is that right? So you met, a fellow creative soul.

Laura / Lauren: Yes, it.

Radim: Um,what was that like? I've had lots of recent conversations about like relationship partnerships, business partnerships on, on, on this show, and it's very much like the opposites attract and thrive.

 what was it like in your case?

Laura / Lauren: Yeah, that's probably us. and when we met, we were quite young. we weren't in this industry at all. he was a Postie and I was in retail during that year off. everyone thinks we met in the industry, but we did a little. and I think, I was quite clear on what I wanted to do and he was figuring out what he wanted to do.

 He from the advertising background. So he did like an advertising creativity course, degree. And I did the graphic design avenue and I, I started the company in 2008 and he joined me a few years later as he was freelancing and coming in more and, it [00:10:00] just grew from there.

Radim: I'm loving the plot twist. I'm loving the plot twist. It was like he was a posty. I was in retail. I was like, Hey, there's a graphic designer and there's a guy coming from ad background. No, he was a posty. I was in retail. I think that's potentially the best way to actually find that. Joined curiosity and of what do you want to do?

And that sounds super, super exciting.

Laura / Lauren: and linking to your kind of like the opposites attract kind of thing. we very much are opposites. Like I'm quite detail orientated and, love the finer details or the designs and he's just all about, ideas and big thinking and, the big ideas and, he's actually a DHD, so his brain's going a million miles an hour and constantly, onto the next thing and all that.

So we are very different, but it works.

Radim: Oh

yeah. I love that story so far. I'm gonna go back to one thing that you said just a few seconds ago, and you said that creativity sometimes is taught out of people 

 It's [00:11:00] something I've been thinking about a lot recently. I'm working on my seventh book based on this theme of this podcast, and I'm thinking. Is this the reality? Is it excuse? Is it a loss of curiosity? 

Because I'm thinking if the creativity was taught out of us, there would be no creatives. And it's usually the people who are know a posties or in retail that even, obviously you get your graphic design and a degree, but I'm thinking. 

Would you think that it actually depends on what's deep inside us that drives the exploration of creativity? Because yes, we can always have more creative subjects in school. But then some money is to run the bank

Laura / Lauren: Very

Radim: then maybe their degree in watercolor wouldn't be that.

So I just feel, we're not gonna say, well, because you go to graphic design, the business acumen is taught out of you. So, it's not me challenging this is me running this as an open research and Robin questions like, [00:12:00] what do you think about this? or how much of accountability when it comes to creativity, do we really need.

Laura / Lauren: Yeah. Yeah. No, I love the thinking. It's nature versus nurture,and yeah, when you think back to kids, everyone is curious. And I guess maybe that's the creativity that I think of or see, experiencing the world for the first time. every single experience for the first time.

 And it's that kind of leads into the creativity or inspires the creativity. But then I guess, some people are just naturally, gravitate more towards design or accounting. So yeah, a bit of both, I guess. I've never thought about it

Radim: yeah.

Yeah. Because in your case and your husband's case, obviously you started your agency and he joined you. ' cause you wanted to do this together. Like, you wanted to explore creative work, 

let's go to 2008 and you've started your own thing. What did that feel like? what was that change from [00:13:00] not being agency owner or not having a creative business to having a creative business and then realizing, oh shit, I'm running a business. what do we do next?

Laura / Lauren: Yeah, well I used to go to the creative conference, semi-permanent, I'm not sure if you know it, but it was on every year, semi-permanent. And I'd go there, listen to all these amazing designers, show their work, and they were, it seemed like they were all, freelancers or business owners or had their own studio kind of thing.

 And I always left it thinking, God, I just wanna quit my job. start my own thing And I'd think that every year. And so finally one day I just did it basically. which is crazy. I, did end up, I didn't. Plan it as a business or think strategically at all at that time. So probably if I was going to do it again, I would plan it out a bit better.

Laura / Lauren: I did end up having to go back to work a little bit part-time and get contracts and things like that as I built it up, over those years. But that's how it started.

Radim: how did you feel like when you, [00:14:00] as you said, like you have to go into employment, obviously, like how did you feel that, obviously you wanted to start your own thing, but the dreams of the semi-permanent, stardom conference, emulating the others didn't happen straight away.

What was that like for you? did it feel challenging or were you like, that's just a part of a job?

Laura / Lauren: I think, it's just part of your journey really. there are ups and downs through life and it's just one of those things, and I think, I think very long term in general, and so it was just. one of those bumps in the road. I always knew I would get to running a studio, but it just took longer than I thought maybe, and needed a few more steps along the way.

Radim: No, it's one of the things I'm really trying to help novices and newcomers

Laura / Lauren: Cool.

Radim: not even help. just to say, look, it's okay to start again. It's okay to do this. No,slowly. when you watch, I was watching just before our conversation, I was watching an interview with Les Claypool from Primers.

[00:15:00] Musician for 30, only nearly 40 years. It was like, look, we took years and years and years to get good. we played shitty gigs, we played small rooms, we did this, but we learned bit by bit and we stuck to what we really thought of doing. Whereas the world moves much faster right now. at least we like to believe that it moves much faster and it feels like not getting things wrong.

 the end, sort of fatal blow, okay, this is it. Whereas in fact we've got so much more information and so much more resources and more people to talk to and we are so much more connected because as you said, when you were growing up, it didn't make any difference being on the island, on the other side of the world because that was your immediate surroundings.

Whereas now we've got bigger V of the world is a bit more scarier.

Laura / Lauren: Yeah. Is it too much? Is the thing like, is more necessarily better or is being, naive? The way to go because you don't know, the other side of it. and I quite like that. I'm not hugely qualified [00:16:00] technically, so I didn't do that degree. So I don't have the knowledge of people that have, but I think not knowing the rules, you naturally break them and youmake discoveries along the way, which makes it all, you know, even more.

Awesome.

Yeah.

Radim: you got your business moving. you got a business a as strong enough that was supporting you to not need an a additional income. How was your work developing? what was it that you started your own thing with?

It's easy to dream about the freedom, then the artistic expression, the card blanches that we demand as a young designers. And then you realize, oh, this is a reality and I need to find something that I really want to enjoy doing. 

What type of work did you wanted to do, what you didn't get to do, and how did that sort of shape the way of that led you to build, run to what it is today?

Laura / Lauren: Yeah. I guess the real driver to it becoming, serious and it needing to work as a business was becoming pregnant. about 12, 12 years ago, I think. and there's nothing like having a baby on the way to actually [00:17:00] make you think seriously about life and what you're doing with your life.

Laura / Lauren: and so that was real motivation for me. I really felt that. and then when I had the baby, like brand new breastfeeding in the middle of the night kind of thing,A pitch came up for Neway tourism to be their sole agency. And, they're a small Pacific island, country. beautiful by the way.

 And I was just thinking oh, imagine if we won that. and long story short, we actually did win, pitch for it won and that set us off on a, yeah, on our journey and. established us as a real agency 

Radim: let's talk about a pitch because

Nothing gives you more focus than having children because you have to step out of yourself and go right, okay. I was enough of an idiot wondering about, number one. Okay,what did the others need?

So how did you guys work on the page? and how did you have to change to, your working processes to, to make it happen and put that extra effort into, winning the work?

Laura / Lauren: Yeah. I [00:18:00] guess nothing, nothing changed. I was still, I do enjoy being a designer. I love working, so I didn't really have time off, Couldn't afford it either, but,it was Just part of the process of getting work. we hadn't done any major pitches before that, but it was just part of it.

Laura / Lauren: and I wouldn't have possibly before kids, I probably wouldn't have even pitched for it thinking that we are too small or wouldn't win, but we just positioned ourselves. I think we even said in that we might not be the obvious choice, but we think would be the right choice.

and we were up against, really big agencies with cafes and in their office and everything like this, but I think they saw something in us as well. and maybe it was like the passion, like we really wanted it. Love, love the Pacific Islands too. We've got a few Pacific Island clients now as well, and I love the ocean and everything like that.

and I guess they just saw that passion in us and that we were, they didn't want to be the [00:19:00] smallest client and with a bunch of big clients, they, I think they knew that they would be our biggest client. and that because of that we would put all our energy into it. 

Radim: you don't get qualified as an agency just because you've got drinks for it, in, in

Laura / Lauren: Yeah.

Radim: in the lobby.

But it's really interesting what you said, like you don't wanna be the smallest account with the biggest agency. Well, because as you said, it was the passion. They saw something in, in you that you guys did, that I wrote a word, fearlessness.

like it's when you, and I think the parenting aspect is so. Guiding in a way because as as a parent, you just have to get stuck in and you you're working with the unknowns all the time, and the unknowns change all the time. 'cause as some, as someone said, like it doesn't get any easier, it just gets different and it's very much applicable to the creative work.

It doesn't get easier, it just gets different because if it gets really easy. [00:20:00] Are you really doing the right thing? So if I may ask, obviously you've been working with your husband, what I'm looking at about 15 years from about 20,010. Right. And you mentioned that he's A DHD and we are getting to know and understand more about A DHD.

We're getting more people with diagnosis. We are getting more people with neurodivergent, diagnosis because. I feel once upon a time as a society, global society fooled ourselves that everyone's pretty normal. Some people do stand out a little bit more, and that's the people we need to lock up because they're a little bit too mad.

And the more we understand about ourselves. We are realizing that no one's normal. We all go we are on the spectrum in some way. So what I want to know is when did you guys know that he is a DHD and how does it sort of work with your personal and working relationship? Because you've got, you're connected [00:21:00] in more than one way.

and how was it for you and how does it work? Because I think this kind of information could be really beneficial to people being heard and seen.

Laura / Lauren: Yes. And I don't think there's any right way to do it or approach it or anything like that. So this is just my story, personally or our story. and we only, he only got diagnosed about, two years ago actually. and it was from, I'm not even sure I really believed in it before that. I thought, we all, it just put it down to personality.

I guess everyone has different personalities. and I hadn't really looked into it, didn't give much thought, and then this, like a meme or something popped up or a video on my social feed and it. Was a husband talking about his A DHD wife and I was just like, wow. Every single one of these things that he does is what Raymond does.

It was like, oh, maybe there's something in this. looked, Googled it a bit, got him to do an online test like, A DHD New Zealand had a [00:22:00] test online or something like that. Got him to do that. myself as well, and I just, I don't know, got like a one or something and he got really high scores that said like he is most likely A DHD.

 And then from there he explored it. But it took, about two years for him to, go through that process. It was quite difficult here in New Zealand, I know, dunno what it's like in the rest of the world. But, it took a few steps to get diagnosed. and then from there he's tried different drugs at different times, medication and stuff.

Yeah, this is interesting. So just before I get to the next question, because

Radim: you said it's personality, sometimes you think it's just a personality, it as a character, is that something that you don't understand?

with Raymond's diagnosis and the follow ups. Has it changed the nature of your work?is there a way to utilize the diagnosis and do you, now we know what it is, does it potentially cause less friction 

Laura / Lauren: do you see this as there any sort of benefits to it? [00:23:00] Yeah.

Radim: like, could it be like a scene as a weight of your shoulders?

Laura / Lauren: yeah, there's kind of two sides to it. having the diagnosis does help explain it, and give a reason for why he's like that. But then, and this is more the husband, wife thing, sometimes he'll use it as an excuse of oh, that's just how my brain works, so I can't, kind of thing.

And I'm like, but you can, just push through and do it. So it's a love hate thing. I think he does think of it as his superpower. and it has just, While we're on that kind of journey of learning about it, it has helped. Definitely.

Radim: Fantastic. Yeah. 'cause I think, I mean it's, I think we can go both ways. There was a joke by English comedian who said, Hey, Like she said, my friend was diagnosed with A DHD, but earlier I think you are also are any h adhd, HD. And she's really? It's not a pyramid scheme. not just because like we are gonna get everyone diagnosed, but it's, I think it's live in a very, it's the right adjective to use, I think privileged, [00:24:00] beneficial, I dunno what the right word to use, but I think we should be.

 appreciative of the fact that we understand more about ourselves because we talking about the history of New Zealand, like being 800 years, and there is history of our world, like we know being 3, 4, 5, 6,000 years old, yet it's 2025 and we are just about understanding what A DHD means.

Like what is all of this little bits because. I think it's what we need for us to understand ourselves, and you get idiots from the right wing sides, they'll be like, oh yeah, everyone's no special. It's no, we are just understanding who we are, how we work, and how to use it as, as a superpower, as a benefit, as a, something that, pushes us on.

Laura / Lauren: yeah, you just lean into it, I guess. and for him, I think he's lucky that he found advertising and it's perfect for him and how his brain works too. And I think it does work for him because he is constantly coming up with ideas and that's the job that he has and [00:25:00] advertising to come up with ideas as a creative director.

So it, it does go hand in hand. And he's naturally found that, yeah.

Radim: Excellent stuff.

Laura / Lauren: Yeah, and over time we've met, we meet so many people with A DHD now, and I think his conversations with people has even led to people being diagnosed and stuff. And we'll meet them later and they'll be like, oh, thank you for talking to me about it.

I've, realized this about me and I can explain why I think like this and things like that. So, it's good.

Radim: So here you are on a podcast talking about history of New Zealand, talking about your husband, and we haven't really talked about what you do for work. So look, you said earlier that you're a graphic designer, but you're not on tools as much as you used to be. Let's talk about a grow, because I want to get to the, not get to talk about what you guys do as your agency, as your advertising and design agency, and what kind of problems do you solve, but your growth from the person who started the business needing to go back into employment.

Re no. [00:26:00] Getting things ordered up properly now, being in a leadership role. as a co-founder and a design director, how do you see your own growth? Because ultimately, as the theme of this show is daring creativity, like you pushed yourself to keep growing and going forward.

So how would you say, you were a different person to the person that started in 2008?

Laura / Lauren: Yeah. Oh, good question. when I started, I mean, again, very naive and you don't know what you don't know, so just fumbled along, grew it organically without much planning or, Yeah, thinking about it. and then over time figured out what we're doing and what.

 work we did best or what work we wanted to do more of. and Structured our values. And I think that was a big thing for us. once we had the values set and written down, that really acted as a guiding staff for us, And we've still got really similar values today.

[00:27:00] A, a few years ago when we, well, quite a few years ago when we kind of first got our first team member, and. Yeah, that guided us and then thinking to now it's a very strange feeling like being one of the few, women founders, like I think, definitely in New Zealand and the world, there's, stats you hear of 1% of agency owners are female and things like that.

I'm not sure if that's. But it's accurate, but it's just crazy. and I do have the feeling of people look at me for that now as well. And I have the weight of that and the pressure a little bit, but also at the same time wanting to give back and share my knowledge and my story to help others, hopefully pave the way for others and things like that.

So, yeah, hopefully it helps people.

Radim: Is the word values, when the word values is mentioned. It always makes me remember that I never have my values defined. When I started, I was very much, my value was like, let's do a really good work and we [00:28:00] work hard to rest. Right. The rest will somehow slot in.

Right. But obviously you mentioned the word values and how we guides you and you. On your website you say you are crowded in ary values to benefit and enrich our clients and team. It's such a guiding style when you talk about it. Like when you actually make it clear to yourself what you're going to do, what you're not going to do, and how you're going to do, and how you're not going to do it.

Laura / Lauren: Yes.

Radim: It's already 50% of the battles solved because you know what you're gonna hand and when you're not. So tell me about your values, like how have you got to form them? How you got to inform yourself on those and how they guide you on the next journey and the next step.

Laura / Lauren: Yeah. Well, again, I think it may have come about when I was having kids as well, like thinking of my personal values, how did I want them to grow up, things like that. and then talking with, there was three of us at the time with our first staff member talking as a group about, the kind of work we wanted to do and the values, we shared.

So [00:29:00] grounded in al Maori values, indigenous values. while also being grounded in creativity and innovation too as a design and advertising agency. and then, just human values too, open and honest. being positive the way we. We wanna be, growth and knowledge.

That's a big one for me. Like always, constantly learning, growing. Doesn't matter if it's a formal qualification or just, just life and life learning, going to things, absorbing as much as you can from everywhere. Family friendly, obviously. That's a huge one for us. We've grown the agency around our kids, and responsible, like that's not only personally being accountable, but like to, to the environment as well.

Linking back to that indigenous knowledge. Yeah.

Radim: Yeah,

I am coloring in my. I, a lack of knowledge about the R values, and I just looked them up and what I'm getting from this conversation so far from seeing what work did you do and looking at the actual list of values now. Okay. It makes sense now because you talk about care and [00:30:00] hospitality, right?

You talk about environmental guidance here. We could talk about kinship and relationship self-determination, and I pronounce Aroha love. We can talk about that. when you bring it down to the human level,

I think of like any idea of a bullshit goes totally aside because this is what cares. I'm seeing this, obviously I'm new to this and I'm, and I like having these aha moments with these conversations because. I'm getting to know you. I'm getting to know more about you, what you do, but seeing these values being ingrained, woven into the tapestry of what you guys do, it makes everything so much right?

I mean, I would like to believe it makes everything that you do a little bit more grounded. Simpler because you don't really No. With those values, especially when you say, like, when I was, when I had my kids, I had to change, I had to understand my values and that it feels so wholesome. And so, it feels like a hug for the soul.[00:31:00] 

Laura / Lauren: Yeah, exactly. You've got it. Like it, it really does ground us. and we've got a full-time Po. Maori cultural director is her role. and she likes to say,Maori values or indigenous values are just human values. when take it back to just people, to people, it's those human values and the way people are just being real.

Laura / Lauren: that's what it comes down to. Yeah. Strip, strip away everything else. It's, yeah, just quite pure.

Radim: Did you have an idea that you would be appointing a cultural director when you were started in.

Laura / Lauren: No way. No. And even that happened organically. she was a teacher and we, yeah, kind of, gradually asked her more and paid her on the side. And then it just became too much, too much work, too much payment on the side and just said, can you come in full time and join us? And she left her teaching role about four years ago now.

So very lucky to have her.

Radim: That's amazing. So I would like to know more about how you lean into those values and how actually influences your work and mostly now, [00:32:00] seeing more of.

What's the right word to use? This is a good one. how does it influence your work now and leaning into it and getting on that journey when you realize that when you trim off all the nonsense, let's say, or all the extras, lemme put it right word to it. When you trim off all the extras, you can really focus on something which is, for the benefit of people really.

Laura / Lauren: Yeah, it is. And that's where we find a lot of our work, for the benefit of people or planet really. It's the kind of work we're aligned to with those values, I suppose. And it, really does come back to that. And they help our decisions, for who we work with too. we don't say yes to everyone now at the start.

You just take any work you can get kind of thing and figure out what you're good at. and. Now it's like we are positioned for people to know the kind of work we do, and so the clients that come to us are the ones that are generally pretty good fit, but we are still not scared to say no to those who don't align to the values and aren't right for us.

Yeah.

Radim: I wanna know about it. the situation when you [00:33:00] say no, because I believe when you live and breathe what you do and what you want to do, the universe will know exactly what you stand for. But. Everyone runs a business or most of us run a business and say yes or no. I call it the anatomy of opportunity.

Like is a yes, really a yes or should the yes be a no? And is the no a yes or should it be a no? like it's a little mathematical equation. no. Do two negatives equal a positive? No. If you do rubbish work with rubbish people, you're gonna get a

Laura / Lauren: Yes,

Radim: of rubbish work with rubbish people lined up.

So

you as a business owner, business founder. How do you process metabolize now, hopefully it's easier with being leaning into your values, but 

Laura / Lauren: no to something lucrative.

Yes.

Radim: What goes into your mind? what is the process in your agency? How do you guys do it to say no?

Laura / Lauren: it is hard. we don't say no often and now because we just, put it out [00:34:00] there, what we like as an agency, what the kind of work we do and our values. so, organizations that aren't aligned generally don't come to us. we don't do a lot of kind of product stuff. we wouldn't do any kind of fossil fuel clients, things like that.

 And for others it might not be a no, it might just be a not yet as well. So, Things like that. there's one example where there was a brand, an alcohol brand,we looked at their social content and it didn't align with some of our values and thinking, and we just said, we're not,not gonna be a great fit.

Laura / Lauren: but it's not a no, it's just a not right now. So maybe in a few years we'll see. But yeah, on the flip side, it is hard as a business owner, you've still got bills to pay, people's lives to pay for all that. So you do feel the pressure of that still commercial side. yeah, so it's just trying to balance it out and get more of those clients that are, wanting to work with us in values aligned.

Radim: I think it's very important to be honest and transparent about the fact that. [00:35:00] You got values that you want to know, that you lean into, the values that you stand for. We don't always choose our opportunities that come our way. We can hope to sort of create some of them vi sort of visualize and manifest at what we want to, what we mostly want to get out of this.

But sometimes it's like you get to hear of agencies who put on a really sort of shiny, Kind of conscious look of what they do and then you get to hear sort of stories of oh, all right, that, that is that the hidden secret of what you guys really work on? And I think it was Havas, the, yeah, I think it was Havas, the agency who was like once upon a time B Corp.

And they were like, yeah, we working with Shell. It was like, yeah, you can't be a B Corp. But

Laura / Lauren: There's

Radim: I guess,

yeah. And again, like you can't really point fingers or judge people because. As many people as they are, they have different values. Of course, we have sort of societal values and I mean, when I, when I, the Maori [00:36:00] values, it's like things that you sort of, I'm gonna say sort of rudimentary, it's just, it's the basic principles of human society that guide this.

Because when you. Whip it up into the sort of hyper capitalists,sphere. People talk about values, people talk about all sorts of things, but ultimately the engine, the machine is going a hundred miles an hour and to make any kind of change for is almost impossible.

Laura / Lauren: Yes.

Radim: don't wanna get too heavy on this,

but.

Laura / Lauren: it. Yeah, and I mean, I guess we're small enough that we can, be so strongly aligned to our values and say no and things like that. with those kind of things, it's like, where is the line? And then ultimately, if you think bigger picture, does it really matter in terms of big thinking,is a few job losses, or not worth it, either way. So, Would the planet thank you for it or is it just about the money? That kind of thing. [00:37:00] So we really lean into, trying to be responsible and looking after that and all those things.

Radim: What I want to know, what is the project, if you can think of one, that you would've never thought in 2008, that's what you would be doing, and it's something that you're so proud of because that's how you've grown as an agency, as humans and as creatives that you would have never imagined. We could be doing that, and obviously you know that was the page that you never thought you might win, but what is the project

Laura / Lauren: Yes.

well, we try not to do pictures, so this one did get handed to us, but from our previous work. and there's, I mean, there's been so many awesome projects along the way. There's so many I could mention, but one does come to mind and it was, for the United Nations, so for the food and agricultural organization of the United Nations.

The FAO, and for the huu forest. So that's, a forest that makes up about a quarter of the country of new air. And so obviously got that through new air tourism a few years [00:38:00] later. and it was just like, amazing. we did, a big project, huge contract that was horrible to read.

Never seen a bigger contract than one with the un, but, we did. we had to, as part of the contract, had to, subcontract scientists, like a science organization, who was way bigger than us at the time as well. And, traveled over there with science and researchers and photographers and things.

and ended up, doing branding. if typeface a whole lot of signage across the forest and the trails, and utilizing, wood from the forest as the post for the signage and things like that. and a touch screen thing at the InfoCenter and airport graphics and all these things, all these pieces that were part of it, but it was just such a, an awesome project and beautiful to work on. Never thought I'd be doing that.

Radim: That's amazing. That's amazing. 360 moment because it's just like where you start and when you travel and where it takes you ultimately you wanna [00:39:00] do great work because that's, most of us who start in this industry go I really want to create something that makes a different, makes a difference, and that satisfies my soul.

This is my expression. and when you can bun, when you can layer all of these other reasons and causes on top, it's that's the good one because. On our journey through sort of creative self-acceptance and getting external validation from, the public peers, the industry, media, press, whatever you're thinking like, oh, okay, if only if I was to do the next LeBron shoe or the campaign or the t-shirt graphic or whatever, I will be the dawn of this industry.

And then you realize. It doesn't matter where you are in the world because the magic happens when the real soul

Laura / Lauren: Yes.

Radim: values actually come out. Right.

Exactly. Yeah. That's so true that those shoes wouldn't excite me at all. I wouldn't wanna do that. That would be a no. it's more than that. It's the, yeah. The feeling you get that it's so special. Fantastic. 

 how do you plan for future? Like how do you see, the future [00:40:00] of creativity in New Zealand and with what you guys do, changing, evolving, or what is it that you would like to as a problem to solve?

going forward?

Laura / Lauren: Yeah, it is a hard one, like thinking it into the future, and I do, I do learn a lot about ai. I'm on a micro-credential learning about AI at the moment. it's massive. And then all these different avenues you could go down for the future, you know? Will the world get taken over or will it?

all the things, the su super human intelligence and all that kind of stuff, it's very scary. But at the same time, it's almost still like day by day. and the industry is changing. what will happen to our industry? I don't know. I can't see that far ahead.

and we will, we do already lean into AI tools. but like you said, I feel very lucky that our work is embedded with this culture and you can't replicate that and real people. and so. I come from a print background, so I love [00:41:00] the idea of like physical tactility of things and I don't see that changing, the physical aspect, and so I'm still really excited about that part of it. 

Radim: It kind of reminded me I was watching. A broadcast of a cycling race called World Espania. And it had a, an ad for a bike by a company called Pinarello. And the bike was meant to be symbolizing. The fact that it can take you anywhere, right?

It can take you to a mountains, it can take you to the cities. it can take you anywhere. And I'm looking at this and I'm like, okay, so every single background was generated with AI and it looks, basically, if I was to be brutally honest, it looked like a shitty coloring book. It was like, okay, so you made an ad for bike that's just been released that cost thousands of pounds, dollars, or whatever currency you want to apply.

Laura / Lauren: It just looks like a kid's project. It looks like, you and I will remember like when we used to have clip art, and you're thinking [00:42:00] like, who created this? and why does anyone use it? And, but people were like, put a clip art on this. this is good enough. And you're thinking what I can do so much better by using my own creativity, using my sort of tools, features, presets, understanding, logic in creating something that will make.

Radim: People see that as a value in one of this. Because if someone was to sell me a product, which is really expensive, why on earth would you just lean into something which is just a quick fix? Because it shows, and I think with the world of ai, I think we really get to see the people who cut corners and people who don't, because I think there'll be a resurgence of very much human creativity.

With some sprinklers of AI for production or productivity, but I think we are going through that sort of technological peak and we'll go into a plateau, even though of course the AI tools will get better and whatever, but I think it, I think we have a shake up and see what it is, because ultimately when you're [00:43:00] trying to appeal to people, you're not gonna generate AI voice and say, Hey, let me tell you a story, because you're gonna tell them the story yourself.

Laura / Lauren: Yeah. Yeah. It's both, weird and exciting and scary at the same time. yeah. But I liked your, the resurgence of human creativity. Yeah. Hopefully nothing replaces that. Yeah, it's, I just dunno what's gonna happen. It's an interesting one that we will.

Radim: Yeah, it's an interesting shakeup because. there's a lot of noise. AI is, AI has made a very good amount of noise because in certain way, AI tools have been part of what we do in our daily lives. Technology for years and years and years. It was just those two words, artificial intelligence, because machine learning's been around for decades of machine learning, like what is the machine learning?

And then, hey, it's artificial intelligence and it can replace you, be like, Am I panicking now? No, because what you've told me is leaning into values will always [00:44:00] stop you from panicking. It is like your safety kid. It's like your first aid kid and is anyone bleeding?

No. And okay, let's take a breath. Let's see what's going on. Because there is a lot of valuable questions and discussions about, the future of work. Ultimately, there will always, in my opinion, there will always be in our lifetime, in our generation, enough people to care about the creativity, about the work, about a customer, about the audience, about us to say.

I'm gonna buy the music on vinyl. I'm gonna sort of go back to where things feel real rather than going, well, here's the new nugget of interesting. Let's see if this is gonna be even applicable tomorrow. And I think when we sort of scale it back, and that brings me back to your no Maori values, it's just like when we stop the nonsense, it's so much easier to actually feel fuzzy inside and go, we'll be okay.

Laura / Lauren: Yeah. I think so, and I hope so. I mean, I'm an optimist, so yeah, I think we will [00:45:00] be, and the vinyls survived. There's still, photographs around Polaroid cameras. They might be a bit more niche, but, people still love those, things, And it kind of comes back to what makes us human too.

if we're replaced everything with machines and AI and all that, what have we got? So, it's a funny one.

Radim: I'm really sorry 'cause I've come to ask you lots of questions about what you're doing and I've given you more questions to think through.

Laura / Lauren: No, all good.

Radim: I do think about a bit at the moment. Yeah.

Radim: it's been a real pleasure talking to you and learning more about what you do, how you do it, who you do it with, and for what reasons and with what values. Because I've learned a lot, I've learned a lot from this conversation by however far you are in the world, and wherever you are, we got so much more in common.

And so much more to learn from another. and it's fantastic the way you run your agency and the way you do business and where you think about creativity because that's what we, [00:46:00] that's exactly what we need right now. So thank you.

Laura / Lauren: Oh, thank you. Thanks for having me. And yeah, I mean, it doesn't matter where in the world you are, like,it's so well connected now, we can do things like this and it's just like we're almost in the same room, yeah, it's awesome. So, Great to connect. Thank you.

Radim: Thank you.

Radim: Thank you for listening to this episode of Daring Creativity Podcast I'd love to know your thoughts questions and suggestions So please get in touch via the email in the show notes or social channels This episode was produced and presented by me Rad Malid The audio production was done by Neil Mackay from 7 million Bucks Podcast Thank you and I hope to see you on the next episode [00:47:00]