Rob Brownstein is an American actor, teacher and coach. He has spent decades working in theatre, television and film. His path into acting started by accident. In 1977, when New York City went bankrupt, his jazz major disappeared over one summer. With nowhere else to go, he walked into a drama-building audition. He didn’t get a part, but he knew straight away that this was what he wanted to do.

In this conversation, Rob and Radim talk about why great acting is never about perfection, and how the craft is like jazz: improvisation, new keys and new modes. Rob explains why he sees acting as exploring “inner space”. He tells the story of nearly walking out of an audition room full of faces he recognised, and how staying turned out to be a turning point. He also explains why he now believes talent comes down to openness rather than ability. Finally, he talks about the quiet power of accepting your place in your career, and how that acceptance let him start reaching higher.

Takeaways

• Perfection doesn’t exist. The perfect creative moment is imperfect by nature.
• Courage doesn’t have to last forever. Twenty seconds is often enough to get you over the hump.
• Let go of expectations. After the first nervous days on a challenging project, the work starts when you let the moments find you.
• Talent is openness. Many people could act, but not everyone is willing to feel and to drop the facades they wear.
• Knowing a little can make you more afraid. Experience brings comparison, so fear has to be managed rather than avoided.
• The best people are generous. Real professionals meet you halfway, and they’re fans of other people’s work.
• Celebrate where you are. Accepting your current place is what lets you look higher.
• Great stories need the whole cast. Supporting players raise the level and keep the leads from getting complacent.
• Stay a student. Classes, readings, observing people and new challenges keep the craft alive.
• Tenacity and love for the work carry a long career, especially when success doesn’t come quickly.

Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic

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Rob Brownstein: What's interesting then is as a teacher, working with people, is kind of expressing to them that makes great art but great acting is not perfection. There is No? such thing as perfection. In fact, the perfect moment in acting is by its nature imperfect, which is a lot like jazz or rock and roll, 

and so I often said nobody sets out to do something bad. Nobody sets out to do a bad movie or do a bad play. they think they're doing something good. they do the best they can, and sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes great people do stuff that misses, and sometimes, people who are,beginners do stuff that hits.

​

Radim Malinic: Welcome to Daring Forever, a podcast about being human, wired for wonder, capable of courage, perpetually becoming. It's about the waves that knock us under and the strange, stubborn grace with which we surface. My name is Radim Malinic. I'm an author, creative, and an eternally curious human being on a mission to speak to incredible people whom I call Forever Daring Humans, those in pursuit of an extraordinary life.

Every week, I share an interview that is packed with amazing stories, value, and I can only ask you, how will you dare forever? . This podcast is inspired by my book titled Daring Forever, which is now available

 My guest today is Rob Brownstein, an American actor, teacher, and coach whose career spans decades of theater, television, and film. Rob's story begins with a jazz major that vanished over one summer and an audition he walked into simply because he had nowhere else to go. In our conversation, we talk about why great acting is never about perfection, how 20 seconds of courage can change everything, and what it really means to explore inner space rather than outer space.

 Rob shares the moment he almost walked out of an audition room full of familiar faces, why talent is really about openness, and the quiet power of celebrating where you are. This conversation is about craft, tenacity, and staying curious. Here's my conversation with Rob Brownstein

Radim Malinic: Hey, Rob, it's great to see you. Welcome to Daring Forever. How are you doing?

Rob Brownstein: I'm good. Thank you for having me, and I'm looking forward to this actually 

Radim Malinic: Yeah, Rob,I've just told you in our little pre-chat that this is more or less gonna be our improv class because we don't know much about each other. And I think this is the most sort of amazing part of what we can find out about one another because, starting with zero potentially, is the best way to do this.

So I normally say on this show, for those who may have never heard of Rob Brownstein, how would you introduce yourself? Who are you? Where are you? What do you do?

Rob Brownstein: well, I'm an actor,American. been working in television, film, and theater for many years. in this streaming world, you can find me on a great many TV shows. I'm currently in the Michael Jackson movie that's out, and, also I have an upcoming film called Rooster Prince. I'm also a teacher and coach, and, I coach actors and, I train them.

and I have a bunch of other things that I do. I moderate support groups. I'm, involved in a lot of stuff. And certainly here where I live, community is super important. we had the fires last year that, decimated a lot of my neighbors and stuff like that. 

Radim Malinic: Yeah. So for those who might not know where the fires were, you live in LA, California, is that right?

Rob Brownstein: That is correct. I live on the,east side of LA, on the border between Pasadena and Altadena. So we would have been the Altadena fires, the Eaton Canyon fires. but either way, they sucked no matter how you look at it. 

Radim Malinic: look, I've got this habit of taking people backwards a little bit to their origin stories, and you said, "I've been in the industry for some years." what was the first instance of you being aware of, that acting is something that you might be pursuing in your life?

where did that first spark come from?

Rob Brownstein: Well

like so many people who end up becoming, performers, I did s-stupid things that I forced my family to listen to when I was a little kid. "Sit down while I sing 12 songs." and things like that. I also-- in middle school, I performed poetry readings.

in high school, I was in bands and,played all the time, and I really loved that. It wasn't really till I got to college and,I'd started to go to college as a, writer and as a jazz musician. And, I was at,the City University of New York, which at the time was free,

and then, the city went bankrupt, one summer. And, when I came back, my jazz major was gone, and I was like, "Oh, hell, what do I do?" so I had taken some acting classes for fun, and I had to walk through the drama building to get back to the bus to go home. And they were auditioning for a play, and I said, "Well, why don't I try this?

I have nowhere to go." I mean, we're talking pre-internet, pre-cell phones. we're talking nineteen seventy-seven, And, I was like, "Okay, I got nothing to do." So that was it, really. So I stayed, I auditioned. actually, it would be a great story if I, got the lead in that play, but I didn't.

In fact, I didn't get anything in that play. but I thought, "Yeah, man, I think I could do this." And so, I switched my major, and I don't think I ever looked back. I think very quickly realized, "Yeah, this is me. I can do this." And so, yeah, I've done it since college. 

Radim Malinic: Amazing. 

 tell me more about jazz. Like, where did the jazz go?

 did you ever pursue it after not finishing the major?

Or did you just leave it behind?

Rob Brownstein: that's a great question. my parents were very into the arts, Also my grandparents. So we were always exposed to museums, music, Broadway musicals. Our house was always full of music and art. And, I was in rock bands in high school, and I was home practicing "Johnny B.

Goode" for the ten millionth time, a one-four-five progression on my guitar, to, because I think we had a gig or the band was gonna get together later. And I just kinda went, "I'm bored. I gotta do more," And,I was always listening to other stuff. it wasn't like,like it was only rock and roll.

But,you also have to understand at that time, all music was so cool. Rock music was so new. It was so cool, going through the late '60s, early '70s, Hendrix, all of these cool new things were happening musically. but I'd always listened to jazz. It was always around me, 

 my dad never jumped into the modern world, He stayed in his Mel Tormé and Frank Sinatra,world. and I don't know, I just started listening. I just started really, really listening. listened to classical, I listened to jazz, and then I picked up the trumpet and, played that for a little bit, said, "Nah, it's not a good fit."

And I pick up the alto sax and I was like, "Yeah, That's a great fit." and I loved the improvisation of it. I think at. the time I was listening to Coleman Hawkins. my first really, really, really great influence was, Gato Barbieri, but this is back in his Verve days when he was still playing a lot of free jazz with Don Cherry and those guys, and just beginning to play,with a Latin influence, b-before he got later on to become sort of smooth jazzy. and then it was just, one great musician after another. I can go down the history, Charlie Parker, every jazz great, Thelonious Monk. when I got into acting, one of the things that I really learned was that I could sit in a theater and never see the light of day for twenty-two hours, and it was great.

But I also was beginning to understand that as a musician, I liked playing more than practicing. And I knew to be that kind of musician, you have to practice and really practice. So, I never stopped being a jazz fan. I went to see everybody back in those days, Pharoah Sanders, everybody who I could see in New York, David Murray.

I don't know if these are, sort of your favorites. I was at Dizzy Gillespie's eightieth birthday party, with all kinds of great people. And then I would say that where my jazz went to is my daughter, who,is a jazz musician in New York. She's twenty-five. And,she also started playing rock guitar and then just moved into jazz real quickly and,she's a wonderful musician and is, finding her way as a young jazz,

musician.

So that's where, that impulse went because it takes a whole lot of time. I still play guitar, but, Like, I had a few students over the other night, and we did, a music night, where each one picked a song and I, backed them up on the guitar and everybody sang.

But that's where I'm at on the guitar nowadays, 

Radim Malinic: That's where you're at.

so this is interesting because I believe that jazz music finds you. you don't find jazz music, it finds you. Because albums like Wayne Shorter's "Juju," it's a cyclical thing. you just wake up every two years, "All right, I'm gonna listen to this for a month."

Like, this is on and on and on and on. And you mentioned some of the incredible musicians there. But I just feel like that it just finds you. I think there are phases and we got seasons in our lives. And, look, I grew up on death metal.

I grew up in the '90s. I was a teenager in the '90s, and I used to say, that was the best decade in the world. But no, you grew up in the '60s, '70s, that was the best decade for you being a teenager.

Rob Brownstein: I never got into death metal, I have to say 

Radim Malinic: it was the new. you can find chaos in everything.

I mean, when you think of like a free note and a bebop and like the free jazz all the way to this, it's just a similar sort of energy, but just with different distortion. what I've always liked about jazz music is the expression that every mistake is an opportunity. all of that goes there.

And I'm gonna segue this to acting in a way, because obviously we, find you now,choosing your major and never looking back. What was that world of, performance to you? then you stepped into it. did you go through all of that sort of that novice excitement and unknown in all of this?

Or was it, did you step into it confidently?

Rob Brownstein: the answer is yes, and the truth is I still live in that novice excitement and unknown. ah, dude, I'm still sometimes mesmerized by this craft and some of the people who do it and then, learning new things. I've talked about this before, it's nothing new, but I had a chance recently to,did this film that's coming out soon, Rooster Prince, and I worked with some amazing people, Melissa Leo, Jackson White, Shia LaBeouf, a wonderful director, Josh Sascin, and it stretched me.

They're tremendous actors. So the answer is yes, it was like jazz, I had to find kinda new ways to play, it's hard to explain to someone who's not an actor, but maybe through music, I had to find new keys to play in, new modes. and it was exciting.

it was scary. It was like, "Oh, shit. Man, look at this," And there were moments I was like, "Okay, I'm dead. What am I gonna do?" But then, I think this is the thing about the creative process that's so interesting, Right at the moment, the first couple of days, I'm like, "Oh," sitting there agog with my eyes wide.

And then the next day, I just let go I just totally let go and let the moments find me and let myself drift into the, and then things started to completely come up to their own. And sometimes our expectations can be super helpful, and sometimes we have to let go of them. And, I think in anything we have expectations.

We go, "Oh, this is the way I work. This is what's worked for me for, so and so years. This is where I am. This is what I think." and to me, that's what's exciting about it, 

Radim Malinic: yeah, I'm really curious because I would normally taken you from your early years to now, but you've taken us to now, and I'm gonna stay with now because you said, "This stretched me. I had to find different keys, different modes." Because on your scale you've got 12 notes and then another 12 notes with the seven note.

We have a higher and lower octave. That's the same with alphabet. we have 27 characters, 28 depending on the language. and then we repurpose them. But when you talk about, obviously with your career, if I got it right, you've been in the industry for 30 years, how do you find yourself in a role that stretches you, that challenges you?

what happens when you're working on a movie like this? what happens? where do you find yourself challenged and where do you find yourself, in your words, stretched, like e-even with a-after all those years being no surprised?

Rob Brownstein: Well, that's a great question, but I think,all artists, all people who continue to ply their art get to that place with almost everything they do, Some things are not as challenging, but everything has a challenge. And I think sometimes, the challenge is the character, finding this place inside yourself that's completely different.

sometimes the challenge is the depth and emotional difficulty in the material, this challenge was both. This challenge was very deep emotional stuff going on. and plus, working in a slightly different way with these actors, each of whom were bringing something else.

And, I think sometimes, it's not paint by numbers, every-everything is different. And,sometimes you get to work on a project where,everybody's stretched, and which is what everybody was, I mean, all of us, you know, the director of photography, all of us, we were stretched to make this film as true and to be these people as truly and as simply as possible, And, It was so fortunate 'cause the director, Josh,was so open in a way that in some ways it, it allowed us to stretch further and further and further, and reach for more. and all the actors were reaching for more. So, it was fantastic.

Radim Malinic: And then sometimes it's just the part is really difficult, and So you're searching for that. And, everything has its own place, that's kind of the best way I can explain it. So I've got a question.What are the expectations and what does it make you feel like personally when you have to go somewhere where you've never been before? So you and I reuse that expression stretched because you're pushing yourself, you're pushing your brain into a place where it hasn't been, right?

Rob Brownstein: That's what's so interesting. You're not recreating. you're making it brand new, and you're making it-- semi-autobiog- biographical story, so We could either try to recreate that or we could become these new people that are those people, And since you're not recreating it, you're experiencing it brand new, and now you have to live through this stuff, which is not easy and is really emotionally difficult.

but that's the fun of it, I hate to say it , but that is the fun of it, of this craft of being an actor, is doing all these cool and difficult things. And,whenever we see people who we all know talking about it, that's what they all talk about. "Oh, this film was a big deal.

This film was a challenge. This film was that." And everything brings its own challenges. but what's interesting then is as a teacher, working with people, is kind of expressing to them that makes great art but great acting is not perfection. There is No? such thing as perfection. In fact, the perfect moment in acting is by its nature imperfect, which is a lot like jazz or rock and roll, 

and so I often said nobody sets out to do something bad. Nobody sets out to do a bad movie or do a bad play. they think they're doing something good. they do the best they can, and sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes great people do stuff that misses, and sometimes, people who are,beginners do stuff that hits.

 The thing about creativity, and, I could see it in your book as you were talking about it, is, you kinda have to let go. You have to feel your instincts. You have to let go. You have to see the world in a different way. You have to trust your feelings, I hate to be so clichéd about it, 

 but you do. You have to trust your feelings. sometimes as a director over the years, sometimes I'll say something to an actor or a teacher, and an actor will say, "Well, why?" and maybe I'll explain it, or maybe I'll just say,trust me. I just feel it. Let's see. Do it, and we'll see, and we'll find out how it goes."

And sometimes we have to do that. We

have to just try and see and do 

Radim Malinic: The thing is, you mentioned this is emotionally difficult and that's the fun of it because how much of metabolization of these roles or of this cleanse of you go to work and you are straight, The emotion difficult part is your work, and then you go back to, normality for a few hours before you go again.

do you ever step out of the role? Do you stay in it? 

Rob Brownstein: If someone were to write this script, they'd be like, 'Nah, No

way, man. This would never happen.'" no, I get you. all storytelling is about incredible moments. 

 that's the truth of storytelling one way or another, they're not about those nice little moments where you're sitting at home in front of a fire reading a book with a glass of wine. That's not a very compelling, two and a half hour film. but in life it's really great, 

so I think that's storytelling, but I also think...the best way I can put it is for me, when I was young, I wanted to be an astrophysicist. That's what I wanted. I wanted to go out into space. I wanted to explore space. at first I wanted to be an astronaut, but I had bad eyes from the time I was eight, so I knew I was never gonna be an astronaut.

Rob Brownstein: so the best way I can say it is that as an actor and director and teacher, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, I explore inner space. I explore what it is for us to be human. and I think that's what the incredible fun of it is. That's what the storytelling is, is we're exploring what it is to be human and sometimes to feel certain things.

 I don't wanna make too much of a, statement about, our world, but I think it's no secret to me why horror is so incredibly popular. On the one hand, one could say, "Well, it's cheap." But on the other hand, people wanna be scared. because our world is so scary, and I think sometimes, we can't even connect to what it feels like, especially for young people.

I know in my time, and a little bit before your time, it was always the threat of nuclear holocaust, That's what it was when we were kids. I'm actually old enough that in elementary school, we hid under desks as if that was gonna help us if the bomb came, 

but that's what they tell you, So these kids nowadays, what are they living with? What are the fears that they're living with? So sometimes I think horror expresses all that in an odd sort of way, and it can get that feeling out. So anyway, 

Radim Malinic: Well, you've actually explained something to me that's been a great deal of,curiosity for me or intrigue. I never watch horror movies. I think I watched "The Blair Witch Project," and nothing else to be done. And potentially, the "Friday the 13th" 

But to me this doesn't appeal. Maybe I've got enough things to worry about so I don't have to watch horror movies.

Rob Brownstein: I don't love horror either. I, in fact, I haven't even watched the two horror movies I've been in. 

I have so many students so many young actors for whom it is so, compelling. And,I have an actress who has been one of the leads in two big horror movie franchises,

Radim Malinic: Yeah.

Interesting. 

Rob Brownstein: Yeah, Storytelling is so interesting, and how it gets out there. Now we have these weird little stories they call on TikTok. They're little tiny stories and, 

online that's all streaming. Those are all stories. Social media is all a bunch of little stories, to try to explain the world, which is literally what all storytelling is, 

 and I hate to do this and plug in your book here, but, 'cause I read your forward just before I came. But when you talk about those moments of having courage, when you have that fear to be able to take that step, it immediately brought me back to,this film that, man, I never forgot this when I saw it.

It's a, a Matt Damon film called I Bought a Zoo. 

 his character in the film talks about, how he met his wife, that, he's passing by this cafe and he sees this woman in there, and he says, "I gotta go talk to her." And what he says is, "I just had to have courage for 20 seconds.

Just had to have 20 seconds of courage, then I could go back to being afraid old me." And to me, that resonates so much, in taking risks in art where you have to take risks and sometimes have those 20 seconds of courage. Then you go back to being a scaredy-cat. But if you can take those 20 seconds to get you over the hump to meet that person, say hello to that person, try this script, audition for that,that audition, I think, I think auditioning is so hard, whether it's a self-tape or a live, to perform at a level where you're competing against, hundreds, maybe thousands of other people and win.

it's the same as sports. You have to practice, you have to get yourself going, and you have to have that moment of clarity and those 20 seconds 

Radim Malinic: I mean, I love that. 20 seconds when you think about it, that's enough because then you can just reset and do your other thing. But I wanna loop back to something you said because instead of outer space, you started exploring inner space, the human, and you worked with some incredible people on many incredible movies.

What was it like to learn from people on the fly, on the go and feel equal, if that makes sense? Because obviously the admiration and sometimes, those 20 seconds of courage are replaced with, 20 minutes of anxiety. And you are obviously you've worked with some incredible characters, incredible people.

What was that like to learn as you grow?

Rob Brownstein: it was growing. It was a growing experience, I've often said that sometimes the difference between a working actor and an actor who's trying to break in or the working actor goes into an audition with the expectation they might walk out with a job, whereas an acting student goes into the audition trying not to mess up, 

and I think, It's very validating. when you work with people that you've watched or you admire, it can be incredibly validating. And you learn. you really learn, and you learn how good you can be. and then, in my experience People are very generous. in my experience, the bigger the people, the more talented that I've worked with, the more generous they can be, in terms of meeting you halfway.

Not to say that they're gonna make it easy for you. because that's not the job. The job is their person has to make it difficult for you, so you have to win, But they're incredibly generous in terms of talking and connecting and being equals for this time, that we are working together.

that, that's essentially my experience, that people can be really generous and then sometimes they give you tips. I remember my second TV gig, I was playing a lawyer and I, was working, opposite this super veteran actor, who'd done a million things.

And we were on a break and he said, " Come here." And, and I walked over and he said, "Now listen Once you say your line, he was playing the judge and I was the lawyer. He said, "Give it a beat." I mean, once I say my thing, give it a beat before you say your thing. Don't just run over me, even though that's how we talk.

He said, "Because you gotta give the camera a chance to really come back to you and the way they're gonna edit to come back." And I was like, "Oh, thank you." and that, that sort of thing can happen a lot, the other thing is,I don't think people realize, but if you think about it, it's really true.

Almost all really successful actors, and I suppose musicians, same thing, they're all fans. They're not just these people. They're all fans. They watch everything. They know what everybody's doing, So, they're not living up there just doing their thing. they have seen everybody else work, And when I show up on set sometimes and the star says, "Oh, dude, gotta tell you, I saw you in this. You was really great." it, it tells you how much because they are fans, and that levels the playing field right there. Do you know what I mean? The, the fact that, we may be at different economic levels or things like that doesn't change anything.

We're fans of each other when it comes to the work, and I think that's the super greatest part of doing this 

thing, 

Radim Malinic: you asked me, "Do you know what I mean?" and I nodded yes, of course I don't. But Rob, I've got a question for you. You mentioned a student actor goes in into audition and hopes not to mess up, and a working actor hopes to come out with a gig. When was that break for you when you've stopped worrying about messing things up and hoping to come out with a gig?

Rob Brownstein: wow 

I don't know that this puts me in the best light, but I think this might tell you a little bit about something. So I had been doing plays in New York, and I came out here and, was still squirreling around. So I went for an audition,for a TV show and it was on the 

 Warner Brothers lot. and I walked in and I looked around. I had not been in Los Angeles that long doing television, and it was a who's who of faces that I recognized, And I looked around and I saw all these faces that I recognized from everything, and I went, " No."

And I turned around and walked out. And I went back outside and

I thought about going home 

Radim Malinic: And I'm standing outside on the lawn, it was a bungalow, and I said, "What are you doing? you're already here, man. come on." So I just stood there and, stay, just stay. And I looked around and I noticed this act-- I started noticing some of the actors preparing, and I started going, " Oh, I can beat him.

Rob Brownstein: I can beat him." And there was a guy down there and I went, "Oh, he's good, he's good, he's good. And I walked inside and I looked around and I started going, "Okay, he's not here for my part. He's here for a cop part. He's not here for..." Do you know what I mean? I started separating these faces and names of people I'd watched for years.

And, I was in my early thirties, and I sort of separated it down, and by the time I was done with everything, I had boiled it down to two people. That guy in the corner, a young guy, and that guy over there who was a name. And I signed in. So the guy who was a name went and auditioned before me, and I kinda heard his audition, and I was like, "Eh, I'm gonna do it very differently than him, so cool."

So I went in, I auditioned, and I left not quite sure what had happened to me, But something had happened. And I went home and I got a phone call, I think a day or two later, from my manager who said, look, they'd love to hire you, not for that part, but for another part." And I went, "Great.

Wow, terrific. Fantastic." 'Cause I knew they'd liked me in the room, And I went, "Great." And then I showed up on set, and it was the name who was playing the part that we both auditioned for, and I was playing this part, and I went, "I got it."

And I remember Ed O'Neill, the actor Ed O'Neill was the lead, and we were chatting, and, we knew people in common.

And I think that experience was maybe what you're talking about, even though it probably was a series of experiences. But I remember that one experience of like, yeah

Radim Malinic: 20 seconds of courage, man, of like, don't walk away. Stay. 

Rob Brownstein: when I was younger, I didn't worry about it. and I'm talking about being, thirty-one, thirty-two, so it wasn't that old. But, when I was in my twenties, I just went out and did.

Of course, I had tremendous fears, but I just went out and did. 

I think sometimes when you start to learn a little bit, that can cause fear in you because You know enough to be dangerous, we like to say. enough to be afraid. You're like, "Oh, yeah." enough to compare and, know when it's working and when it's not. So, that's another side of, I think, learning 

Radim Malinic: I've got an interesting question, I hope. So then my question now is, as a musician like you said, some mu-musicians that play more needs to have more practice. How do you keep yourself in shape, creatively? 

Rob Brownstein: I have a theater, that I belong to for

over 35 years. we do stage readings, performances, and so I participate in that. I teach. I was in an acting class myself for many years, my teacher passed and so, and sometimes I'll work with some of my students. some of my advanced students and even some of my less advanced students.

I'll just go do a scene with them, So in a way, I'm always thinking about it and I think, a-a-actors are always thinking about our craft. It's what we do, In the same way you were talking to me about,you can't stop writing 'cause you're a writer. You cannot stop writing.

I write one book, I'm finished. I gotta do another one. actors, we love to act. I think that's just really the truth. And,it is part of who we are and what we do, and it's part of our job, but It's also part of what we love in life. And so we play and we act And then, of course, there are auditions, which are an opportunity to act, which don't always turn into jobs, you know?

and then I think about it, 

Radim Malinic: It's interesting because, it was actually one of my friends who said that when you write a book, I think it was one of my friends who deciphered it for me. But when you write a book, it's almost like an open form of therapy because you're really paying attention to your surrounding. You're picking up sound bites all the time.

You're thinking in, connections and, you're joining ideas and you're absorbing actually what you get to hear or watch or see or out there. With your work, do you ever find yourself in a public space and go, "Whoa, I wanna watch this person for five minutes and see what they do,"

Rob Brownstein: Oh, totally, man. I'm always watching people. Totally. I mean, the interesting thing is,Stanislavski talked about, really observe other people, and copy them. I love to observe other people. I think that acting has progressed a little bit from Stanislavski to the point where it's observe other people to see how they behave, so you can now observe yourself and see what are the behaviors , that you do and how they would change if you behaved like that.

But no, I'm always watching. what's that scene about? you go to a cafe, you're sitting there having a cup of coffee, you look up, 

right away there's that couple breaking up. You can just see by the way one of them, whether it's the guy or the girl, is holding their head down and the other one's talking, but not really looking them in the eye.

You can see the couple that have been together a long time and really don't have anything in common, and you can see the couple that have been together for a long time and still just absolutely adore each other. You can see the people who are new. You could see the person who's behind on his homework.

these are the little stories, And you know what? The sad thing is, the crazy thing is, you can't stop. yesterday I was in a bookstore, and, it's a wonderful bookstore we have here, Vroman's. And they also have a bunch of other stuff, and I have some really good friends that just moved to a new house.

And so I was buying so- a housewarming present for them. And I went to ask this young lady to help me, and

There was something going on. I don't know what it was between her and her coworker. they were not talking to each other. They were, like, not looking at each other. and 

I kept saying things that were not being heard.

I could just see, like, she was in this place, where she could... So I wanted to ask her, "What's going on?" I wanted to say, "Are you okay?" Because I kinda had to say things a couple of times to her. But,it didn't seem appropriate at the time. But,it was very interesting.

 You can't help yourself. sometimes I do ask people, and sometimes they do tell me, and sometimes the next thing I know I've sat there and talked to somebody for an hour, because of what's going on. People are so fascinating, and, we can't stop, 

I remember I was auditioning for, Mad Men, and Matt Weiner, who's the creator of this great show Mad Men, this was my first audition, not the one that, that I got hired for. he kept me in there for 20 minutes asking me about my father, 'cause, as we were doing the scene, I said, "Wow, this reminds me of my dad."

So he kept me for 20 minutes afterwards just, "Tell me, tell me, tell me. What do you mean by that? What do you mean by that?" And I think that's, observing life. That's how, especially if you're an artist, a writer, an actor, a director, those things of life that tell you what,to do when you're working, you're doing it 

Radim Malinic: Yeah, what you're describing obviously is a different level of empathy. Obviously, you're looking for stories, you're looking for some, you get filled with oxytocin just seeing other people's life, and that makes you feel something. 

 But when you teach your own students, can you spot in the same way someone who's got it and someone who needs a lot of work? 

what do you tell them? do you ever find anyone like that hasn't got it?

Which is a cruel question, but...Can you make anyone 

 an actor?

Rob Brownstein: well, I used to think yes. I don't anymore. And it's not because they're not capable, but it's because I think sometimes they're not willing, 

change is an interesting thing, and growth. And,I've always thought that talent was the ability to be open to something, And, obviously not like physical talent, but,for this thing we do is you wanna be open to something. why does somebody become a guitarist, and then cannot stop? I think you're just open to this kind of music and it just opens up within you.

 and I think as I've worked with people-- the thing about being an actor is you have to use yourself. And the thing about living in life is we create a person to show other people, in a way, to interact with other people. And,there is that person who's really us, but then there are these little facades that we put on sometimes.

"This is my business person, this is my work person, this is my being polite to, that person at the,whatever store who's being really difficult." we have these different things that we put on or, "Ugh, I've got a work meeting and I..." you do all that. And I think some people work so hard at that, that it's very difficult for them to let that go and become somebody else, That's number one. the other thing is it's about emotion, emotions are not always easy. And, the thing about being an actor is you need to access those emotions, and I think some people don't want to, they don't wanna feel that. They have this idea that, "Maybe I can play that, but I don't wanna feel that."

And that's not gonna fly when you're working on camera, The camera needs you to be experiencing it in some form or another. And I'm, not saying that you're gonna feel all the things the character does, but they need you to be as real and as truthful as possible. You can't just pretend. And, so some people are just not open to it, but they'd like to be, but they're not.

 so the answer to your question is, if everyone were open, yes, they could be, But,you kinda gotta know yourself enough to be able to let go to bring out parts of yourself for somebody else.

And if you don't know yourself well enough, it's 

Radim Malinic: Yeah.

This is interesting because are people willing to change?Because I'm really fascinated when you said that people have a hard time accessing the emotions because they think they can act it on camera.

Rob Brownstein: If someone is willing to change, is it possible to access emotion? ten thousand acting exercises, many of whom are used in the business world or in,when you have a sexual harassment classes and they make you,role-play. I mean, those are just acting techniques. So the answer is yes, there's ten thousand techniques to access it, but you gotta be open to it.

You gotta be willing to go and do it. And,That's part of what training is, and some people are more open to it than others. Some people take longer. I try not to judge, as far as good and bad. That's something I think that's really important. It's not about being good.

and bad, it's just, are you open to it?

Can you do it? there's a lot of people who do it, just like there's a lot of great musicians, but they have to practice. You gotta learn scales, And some people are great and they don't know the scales, some rock 'n' roll people. That's okay too. However you get there is fine, but you have to get to a certain point to make it happen 

Radim Malinic: where you were at the beginning of your career and you see people now, are the expectations different? is there different aspirations to become, somebody?

I think we just live in a completely different world. I mean, when I started acting, I didn't even think about doing television. I just wanted to be in the theater, That's all I wanted to do was do plays, That was like my whole life. My twenties in New York were just consumed by the idea of doing plays and all kinds of plays, musicals, dramas, comedies.

Rob Brownstein: and then, I moved out here, and my world, kinda changed and opened up. also, there's so much more information now. I mean, when I was coming up, nobody wanted to talk to you about your career. Nobody wanted to give you advice. You'd go to an acting class, and all they wanted to talk about was acting.

Nobody wanted to give you any career advice. It was like it was this great mystery of how anyone became anything, Whereas now there's ten million jillion people who want to give you advice. Some of it is good, some of it is not so good, So I think that's, really difficult, so, you can get in the union now in ways that we could not. my gosh, I was talking with a friend of mine who's,a little bit older than me. But man, when we were starting out, you couldn't send an email to an agent.

you would have to go to the office, and there was a big sign on the door that said, "No effing actors."

"Do not knock." And so you'd slip your resume in a brown paper envelope underneath the door and hope that they would look at it and not rip it up. I mean, you had to find all sorts of ways to get in, and it involved showing up. That's another thing that was really difficult. Now you can do it all online.

We had to show up. we had to sneak onto the lot, if I had an audition for something over at, Paramount for one show, I would clear my entire afternoon, Because I'd get on and I'd go around to every casting director I knew and say, "Hey, I'm over there, over there.

I just stopped by. How's it going?" the meet and greet. stuff that now you just do on the web. So, it's really different, and I think there are more opportunities. I think there's more places to train, certainly here in the United States, I don't know in London, since you always had those sort of big four or five, if that's grown to, more than that.

and so I think those opportunities are there. I just think that, you just have to figure out what you want. I think anything in life is about figuring out what you want and how you're gonna get there.

Radim Malinic: I'm trying to draw a line between, your experience and the resilience that you needed to go from one experience to another. Because in my opinion, I'm seeing it from my industry or from my corner of the world of creative industry, the resilience is slightly harder to learn for some people because the rejection doesn't come as, in such plentiful amount as it did back then.

As you, for example, if you're describing doors with no, no effing actors and, just working it out as you were going along, that's a different story. If they're like you,resilience is never nice to exercise, but is necessary for growth. Do you see that difference in then and now?

Rob Brownstein: No?

I think there are people who are more resilient and have, the tenacity to do it, and there are people who don't, And I think that's Okay

too. that was a word. I remember being in my twenties, that word tenacity, just really stuck with me because you have to be tenacious.

You just have to be if you're going to be an artist and gonna become successful. Because sometimes it's given that you become successful right away, and sometimes it's not given, and it takes a while. And sometimes you have,a character actor's career like mine, 

you can't always know what the end result is gonna be, and you gotta be willing to go through it. and so it takes tenacity and it takes a love for it. 

Radim Malinic: Well, yeah, I'm really curious. From everything that you've ever done, what set and what movie or what role would you go back to play tomorrow again because you didn't want it to stop?

Rob Brownstein: Oh, dude, so many. 

Radim Malinic: That'll 

be for you. 

Rob Brownstein: seriously. No, I mean so many because,

I'm a supporting player, and so there's so many times I've been on set... Here's a funny one. I did a show called Bosch years ago, and,it was a detective show. And,I was on the first few episodes, and my character dies. Commits suicide, actually. But I became so tight with everybody on set, that I'm still friends with the star of the show now, on Facebook.

We're still, like, communicate. and I remember when I was saying goodbye, one of the other stars of the show was like, "We'll see you tomorrow." "We'll see you next week." I said, "We just took my body out." you just watched them take my body. So I think sometimes, you.

develop,friendships and families, and then certain roles are just so interesting, 

and It's funny because, I could never go back because I was dead, 

Radim Malinic: you mentioned you're supporting character most of the time. 

 Did you ever feel that was enough?

Did you ever feel that's something that you actually were very good at? Because sometimes when you think, like, for example, I was thinking of, Brad Pitt's role in "Once Upon a Time in Hollywood" when he was a supporting actor, and he totally stole the show because he was just so fucking good.

And I, for example, in, in my creative role as a, let's say, a branding designer, a designer or writer, you always try to obviously get in my opinion, to get a support- the star of the show and the supporting actor vibes in a way that they all get something really magical out of it.

you can surround a hero with great supporting actors that the hero doesn't even have to do too much work. 

Rob Brownstein: A-actually, there's two things you bring up to answer that. one thing for me was the answer yes. I did come to a place where I was like, Yeah

man, I am this guy. This is who I am. I've achieved this in my career. I've been consistent, professional. I've had a career as a supporting player, a guest star, and all of that, and, occasionally a lead," but so much.

And

Accepting that and celebrating that, for me Was a really important point because then it allowed me now to start to look a little higher at certain things, and look for different roles, and begin to look for different things and to aspire to certain different things, So that's number one. And I think sometimes, really being able to celebrate where we are in any difficult endeavor, is really important. the other side of the coin, and this is something that

We live in a world that is more led by numbers people than by creative people, And, in order to have a good piece of work, a good film, a good TV show, yes, you have to have that person who sells the product, the name, the face. But dude, for it to be good, you have to have a great supporting cast, And I've had so many times over the years when a series regular has thanked me or other members of the supporting cast for bringing our talents because it makes them work harder, because they can become complacent. It raises the level of the story, do you know? and I just think that's so important, 

you have to have all of it, You can't just have one thing. You gotta have all of it. And 

that's what makes the weave of a great story and a great thing,work, 

Radim Malinic: at the beginning you told me that everything that you did as a young man was because you didn't wanna get bored. Where do you see yourself now with the same mindset, with so many years behind you? what gets you excited? 

Rob Brownstein: Wow. I, I, I--Wow. I, I-- yeah, it's so interesting 

I still look forward to every day and every new challenge and every new possibility and what else-- do you know what I mean? In the same way. I think that the difference is that maybe my life is a little bit more comfortable as I look towards it.

my kids are grown. my youngest daughter is in college,in her last year of college. So I have a little bit more bandwidth for myself than I did when the kids were home, 

 I think that for those of us who do this kind of thing for a living, and maybe this is why you keep doing it, why you have longevity, is, you look forward to all these challenges, and you keep looking for new ones. And,I only get bored at certain things.

I don't get bored in life. I get bored if I'm at a performance and it's not working. 

I get bored when I watch the news. I get bored when I watch the politics that exist in our world today, which is just so full of crap, it's just almost ridiculous. I get bored when people talk to me and I know they're completely full of shit, But as far as life 

Radim Malinic: do you have a place or do you have a method for looking out for challenges, or do these challenges now come to you that you are more established and therefore you don't have to try as harder? Or do you look out for specific things that would push you still a bit further?

Rob Brownstein: both. Some come to me, and some I reach out for. some I look for. there's also so many other little challenges, I like to go hiking, and, physical challenges. I take my dog and, "Okay, we're gonna do this hike."

"We're gonna go do this. We're gonna do that. we're gonna hit that hill." 

So these are the interesting challenges in life and, meeting new people,trying new things, trying different parts, that's the fun of it.

I think that all actors need to be in class or in a theater trying new things. that's how you grow. Just like 

Radim Malinic: So

 Absolutely. So I've got actually one closing question for you because you've spent decades playing the doctor, the judge, the lawyer, the person who walks in, changes the scene, and walks out. If your own life was a script, what would be the scene that you would still love to play that nobody has casted you in yet?

Rob Brownstein: I don't know that nobody's cast me in yet, but at my age I would love to play The handsome Romeo 

Radim Malinic: Right. It was my real pleasure meeting you today and chatting to you. I, 

Rob Brownstein: same here, man. I really appreciate It, 

Radim Malinic: It, it's been really interesting.

Rob Brownstein: book very much 

Radim Malinic: Oh, thank you. 

 pleasure meeting you, pleasure chatting to you, and yeah, one day we should do this again.

Thank you.

Rob Brownstein: thank you. I would love that. Cheers. 

Radim: Hey, thank you for joining me on this episode of Daring Forever Podcast. As always, I'd love to know your thoughts, questions, and even suggestions, so please get in touch via the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, Radim Malinic. Thank you for being here, and I hope to catch you on the next episode