Radim is joined by Freddie and Erik from SNASK — the Stockholm-based studio that has spent nearly two decades building one of the most distinctive, daring creative brands on the planet. ~ What begins as a conversation about music, inspiration, and origins unfolds into a masterclass in conviction, values-led work, and why making enemies is the most logical brand strategy there is. From their refusal to enter awards to a client who fainted getting a tattoo at a wrap party, this episode is a full-blooded reminder of what it actually looks like to stand for something — and never apologise for it.

Takeaways

• Build your brand like a rock band — with mythology, a manifesto, and the confidence to always play last
• Standing for your values creates both enemies and fans — and that is precisely the point
• Humour is far more universal than people believe; the fear of it not landing is bigger than the reality
• Making enemies isn't risky — having no position at all is the true creative catastrophe
• Great creative partnerships work by lifting each other's ideas further than either could reach alone
• "Fuck-off capital" isn't money — it's the courage to operate entirely on your own terms
• Holding clients through unfamiliar territory requires conviction and patience, not retreat
• The design industry desperately needs voices — neutral, inoffensive work doesn't just underperform, it disappears

Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic

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Freddie: I think it was very early, like second year of existence, we were starting to have people thinking like, "Oh," saying stuff about us, or, "They're young and naive, and they think they can do whatever they want," and blah, blah, blah. And we realized that we can't and, or will never want to please everyone. And especially what we do comes from value-based opinions that we stand for, then I think it's good that people then oppose themselves against it.

If they don't agree with our values, that's what they should. And also in the same way, people will then also like what we say because they agree with it. And the nightmare for us would be generic in the middle, and no one thinks anything about us.  

Radim: Welcome to Daring Forever, a podcast about being human, wired for wonder, capable of courage, perpetually becoming. It's about the waves that knock us under and the strange, stubborn grace with which we surface. My name is Rado Malinovic. I'm an author, creative, and an eternally curious human being on a mission to speak to incredible people whom I call Forever Daring Humans, those in pursuit of an extraordinary life.

Every week, I share an interview that is packed with amazing stories, value, and I can only ask you, how will you dare forever? . This podcast is inspired by my upcoming book titled Daring Forever, which is now available for pre-order out in October. 

 Today, I'm speaking with Freddie and Erik from Snask, two creatives who spent nearly 20 years building one of the most joyfully disruptive creative studios on the planet. And our conversation isn't just about design.

It's about conviction, about building a brand like a rock band, about the strategic logic of making enemies, and about what happens when two creative minds refuse to adapt to a world that keeps asking them to be smaller. With titles of a Doctor of Disturbance and a Daydreamer of the Highest Order, Freddie and Erik, they're exactly where they should be.

 And let's be honest, also the best two guests to kick off the new season. This is Daring Forever, and I present you my conversation with Erik and Freddie from Snask.

Radim: Hello, Freddie. Hello, Erik. Welcome to Daring Forever. How you guys doing?

Freddie: Hello. Thank you for having us.

Radim: it's been a pleasure and a long time coming

Erik: We are good. How are you?

Radim: Yeah. very good for seeing you both on this very sunny morning across different countries, across different cities. But whenever I was thinking for guests for this season, which is based on the title of my new book, "Daring Forever," which is about a pursuit of human creativity, of human passion, permission, gratitude, curiosity.

 You two came to me as one of the most fitting guests. Obviously, there's another 49 guests coming, but what you guys created and what you've been doing for the last many years has been remarkable because you've created an entity in sleepy Stockholm that's global, that's doing incredible work, and it feels against the grain of what you guys would normally be coming out of Sweden.

So for those who may have never heard of Snask, which I doubt there's anyone there, who's Freddy? Who's Erik? How would you introduce yourself? Let's start with you, Freddy.

Freddie: Oh, wow. I'm not sure. I'm a doctor of disturbance whisperer of disruption, and spokesman of disobedience

Radim: Erik . I hope you've got equally good intro

Erik: Yeah, I was like, "What the hell am I?" I'm a daydreamer, of the highest order. And otherwise I direct film at Snask. That's what I do

Radim: Excellent stuff. have I got it right that you two founded Snask a while ago, is that right?

Freddie: Yeah. Basically, yeah. we've been running this for fucking ages now, and Snask is now 19 years old, so we're celebrating 20 next year. So it will be a party, Erik? A big party

Erik: Oh, yeah. Yeah, it has to be a party.

Radim: the thing is, you're losing your teenage years and you're going into basically an adulthood. what I normally do on a podcast, I take things back to the beginning a little bit, and we sprinkle some of the nostalgia across to the journey to get to where we are today.

 what was your journey into creativity yourselves? Like what drove you basically creating Snask in the first place? What was your background, and why did you wanna do something that's different to regular?

Freddie: I think we had similar from music, but slightly different. I was started a club night with some friends where we were DJing and booking bands and someone had to do flyers, websites, et cetera. So that became me. And on from there it went basically. And then after that I started studying graphic design and kept doing clubs and kept booking bands.

And you were similar, but more... This comes from music as well

Erik: Yeah. No, exactly. I mean, I always played music and a lot of-- in bands and things like that. So that world of, culture, whatever, if it was filmmaking or design or music or whatever, was always the fun world and the world you want to be in. But it-- then the funny thing was, like, when I got a little bit older, starting to, yeah, like you say, at the 20s there when you start to go out in life more to, to and grow up, then, for me, it was something that was used for fun.

It was, like, impossible to have a life in that world. It was like, "No, you have to study and become something, serious or, the regular world." But then-- and that's how I discovered eventually this agency world and then, that was, "Wait, you can actually work with this stuff and have a job?"

And that was how slided into it. but then it's funny because then I thought that needed to be very serious 'cause you need to have your fucking role and everything and behave in that world. But then that's when I met Freddy and, the whole Snask thing happened. Then I realized, you know what?

We don't need to do that either. We can just be ourselves and have fun and actually have a living out of it yeah.

Radim: You mentioned music, and it came to me just now, like how much of a Swedish death metal I used to listen to and try to emulate with my bands. I think we can easily talk about like the mid-'90s death metal scene about Entombed and Dismembered and all of that 

 such a remarkable era of music that has just created so much good stuff.

Wolverine Blues is still one of the best albums ever. But what was the influence of music? Obviously, you had-- obviously, Freddie, you were saying DJing and what, What music did you surround yourself with, and how much influence did it have on your creativity?

And I'll ask Erik the same question afterwards.

Freddie: I think young people today have no clue what it means, like indie pop, indie rock. Today it's just pop or rock or whatever. But that was more like influences, everything from '70s rock to Oasis to, Beatles. I mean, a lot of what we created at Snask has been created from our inspiration from rock bands from Beatles interviews when they were lying in interviews, to reading biographies to, being on stage.

for us, we always wanted to speak last, and then we met a lot of speakers, designers, and they were like, " Oh, I, oh, I never want to speak last." because they think that the audience is tired then. But for us it's like the only thing you should aim for is to speak last. Everyone else is just pre-band, you know? For us, it comes from music or how we brand our company. It's like building this legend about our company or brand, like exactly like the Kiss has done, Rolling Stones, every band out there, Oasis. So a lot comes from there, I 

Radim: That's a genius thing. By the way, speaking last, I mean, I,I am always the guy who wants to speak first because it's-- you get it done out of way. And I always felt, I mean, it'sit's really good observation because you can see the ebb and flow of conferences or events that, sometimes people are a bit tired.

And for example, speaking last at OFF on Saturday, it's a bit of a graveyard shift, 'cause really, people are dying. But you're right, I think that's a great influence. Like Rolling Stones would never play first. They would always play last, and that's the same with every band. So I like that.

 Erik, what sort of music

Radim: did you have in your life that showed you the way?

Erik: well, when I grew up, it was all about the grunge and that rock world and some stoner rock music and et cetera. I, But, and Tune was there, and it was around. I've seen them Tune live, 2002 or something. I know whatever. But, it was a lot of great music here and around.

And I like... But it's like Freddy said, it was not the world. And It doesn't matter that much about the music genre. Like, I I listen to everything as well. it could have been some, whatever, more experimental or jazz music or whatever that was more inspiring in one way in, being creative or whatever.

Freddie: But, it's more like the people behind it and the whole thing, like how how they acted in interviews or how they, people just being, fun and creative and being a little bit rock star arrogant too, or being problem themself in a funny way or, you I think that, whole thing, the attitude of being political too, like today, we we have, the best,voices sometimes around, political things or things that are bad in the world are often musicians today, that stand on the stages and actually, say something and actually have an impact. They actually get people to think Yeah, and they use their stage to make an influence on the world. It's Noel Gallagher like Jarvis Cocker or Kurt Cobain, he did so many things that was political when he dressed up as a woman on stage, when he came in on a wheelchair, when he is in interviews, And he didn't have to do that, but he believed in something, and I think that inspires us a lot 'cause I think our industry is very nervous and tries to be very politically correct and very professional and not speak about their own opinions. But the world is fucked up, and I think the design world also needs voices

Erik: And now you have bands like Kneecap and, they're speaking out about Palestine and everything and there's so many other bands doing the same thing. That's the funny part. There's all these bands that have millions and millions love and follow, and they are standing there saying it.

But people are still afraid 

Radim: I think what you guys said was really important is to stand up for something actually, you get people who will be with you and people who will be against you, but at least you've got something that you can, stand behind.

Because as you said, really, there's nervousness because everyone tries to keep the lights on and everyone tries to do it in a way so it doesn't upset anyone. But then in the long term, are people being true to themselves? Because, I've spoken to people who say, "Look,I've got into the advertising world and quickly realized that I don't wanna be part of this."

I've seen an incredible presentation by Nina Hasham from Forti Mustakil, which is a studio based in Cairo, like really flying under the radar, and they've got real edgy energy about how they want to do stuff and how they don't want to do stuff. Obviously, it's just the Arab region, and so they've got strong sort of emotions about what's going on.

And I think that kind of feel makes you inspired and say "Okay, I might be standing for a lot of things, but always do better," because when everything's said and done, what have you really created? Because I think just that sort of safe world, how much we're pushing ourselves.

Because you mentioned, youfrom Galahad to Jarvis Cocker's, they've got voices and they are not scared to say what they wanna say, they don't have to, be friends with the brand manager at Coca-Cola. I mean that's a different story. But equally, those are the people who are being followed for the right reason because they open their mouths and they believe in what they say.

 So is there an antidote? not everyone's gonna be brave because we are differently hardwired. But h- how would you say that standing up, speaking up, and actually have something to stand up behind is important?

Freddie: it's super important because you-- as you say, you become a person, you become a brand, you become someone who has values and stand up for them. yes, we can work with Meta even though we don't agree with them. We take their money maybe, but then we use our stage or whatever we have to influence people in what we believe in.

It's the same Oasis have a, Adidas is a big sponsor. They're making jackets and they don't necessarily agree with what Adidas is saying, but then they use their stage to say other things, what they believe in. I think all musicians do this. But I think that it's super important to stand up for what you believe in.

Otherwise, who are you and what did you do in the world? if people see me and they say, "Oh, I hate that dude because I don't agree with his values," it doesn't touch me. I don't feel like, oh, that's bad because they don't agree with my values. But if someone doesn't love me and they say, "Oh, I love the guy because I agree with his values," it's just I get happy.

Erik: But if I was walking the streets and people are like, "I don't like him. I don't know what he stands for," that would be horrible, And the only thing fighting this is capitalism. That's the problem. 

It's all about the money, and then we don't say what we want because then we're afraid that maybe the money won't come, you

Freddie: we don't compete with our work unless our client really wants us to and tells us, which is not happening very often. And so we don't care about if we say something about someone in industry or a group of people and they get mad at us, we're not afraid that, ooh, they won't vote in Cannes for our project.

But we know several other people who says, we wish we could say what you say, but we c- we don't have a fuck off capital because we need these assholes to, vote for us in Cannes Lion or whatever." And we don't care about that at all. And then they ask us come you have this fuck off capital?"

 we use the money instead of entering awards. We use it to create our own projects or other things. So I don't know, just different views

Erik: We don't get it, but in another way, we're just, doing what we are doing. I, I think it'sI think it's everyone's just, putting themself always in a context, and then they're like, "This is the structure of this world, and we have to adapt and behave this way." But, we stopped doing that a long time ago.

We have a company, Otherwise, we just, do things. We can invoice, and people can invoice us. That's great. Then we can do whatever we want, in terms of what we say and what we do. it's... doesn't

Freddie: And people often think that Snask is its own brand and has its own values, so me and Erik might not agree, but that's just-- no, it's just, it's created from us. What we believe in is what Snask is gonna say and believe in. It comes from us

Radim: But you see what was really interesting about not putting money into submitting work for Cannes and actually making your own stuff, because that really goes back to bands and making your own merch, making your own things. when you think about... When I think about the tribalism of, the rock music of any genre, of any era, ofwhen you think about it, those were branding machines in a way.

because you never had a problem with understanding the niche because the niche was widely protected, and I'm very still talking about, the death metal and grindcore and, the stoner rock. if you did something different, you would lose your, fans or whatever 'cause they were loyal and disloyal.

 But when you think about, like, how many things were created to, to get band, the band's message across or the artwork, on anything, shorts and... I used to wear Cannibal Corpse shorts when I was 14. Why? But I think about it I feel like I feel bands were brands before the brands were brands, if that makes sense.

 Because you wanted to get your stuff to your people, and that was just a direct message. "This is the music, this is what I understand, this is what we believe in, and this is the stuff we can give to us." So when you talk about making your own things, yeah, I think it goes into eternal philosophy of we can make stuff that speaks to the people that wanna be, behind us, right?

Freddie: Yeah, no, for sure. it's, people might think The Beatles wasn't like this, but they were. their name was first Silver Beatle, and then they changed it to Beatles, just Beatles. They were discussing the name a lot, and then they took fake names when they went out. So Paul McCartney was Paul Ramon, for example.

Erik: They up these fake names when they went on tour, and they lied in interviews. Now, then Ramones came, got inspired by Paul Ramon ' cause his fake name, and they named their band The Ramones, and it just kept on going. But it's been there all the time in music. People have really been building brands, but most of them are doing it from their own values and what they believe in. And I think that's that's where all the energy comes from, So also the, it's funny with the merch thing or whatever, that, that was always the thing too, the bands could control themself. the labels had every-- had them in the clause about most things about the record sales or the, booking, the promoters or whatever.

They had them in terms of the shows But then with the merch, they could control it themself and they could be All right, how many did we sell?" They could put some money on the side that, "Oh yeah, we sold 1,000 T-shirts," but it was like 1,200 or, And they, they-- you could grab some extra money and actually some of the bands, I know loads of bands that were like the only way they make money from the touring is through the merch, 'cause they can do it themself, while the other things barely, goes around.

Radim: Speaking of store merch, I have been absolutely fascinated with what The Hives are putting out there because it's like the simplicity of the design, the messaging, it's beautiful. I'm not a mega fan, but it's one of those things that I appreciate the music, I appreciate the merch, I appreciate the graphic design that goes into it because it really speaks direct message to the people.

And you guys did a couple of music videos, and so much so that you got awards for them as well. How do you handle band like Hives next to more corporate clients that potentially have different requirements? Because if I get it right, it was that you guys pride yourselves in handmade stuff.

It was you're not very much about digital execution as much as about making stuff with your hands, making stuff physical. So how do you handle band like Hives the way of how Snask gets projects done?

Erik: no, but I think first of all, it's something completely different. And you can't really compare it because, when you do the corporate work, you still have to do some of the corporate process and lay-- that's just how it is. It's we're gonna be just as professional as other companies are in that world, But when you go and do a music video, you don't have that same pressure. You can be

quicker, more-- have more fun. You can be more direct about things. You can do a lot more on a set, et cetera. You have-- You know, the time doesn't go as slow. You can be, but then I think it's terms of that, style, the first times, we did-- were asked to make music videos, we were asked to d- it was for the Viagra boys and others.

We-- And then it was a bit like, " Oh, but you have that style, of building things and doing..." But it's just impossible with the budgets to be honest. to do-- At least if you're gonna do it, in scale. there's always been two things with Snask in terms of, yes, we had the whole, physical approach with the-- But that's more a visual thing about, there's-- connected to design and expression and that.

But we also had the other side for us has always been, like, ideas and standing out in other ways too. The best has always been when we can combine them, but, th-therefore it was more about, "Okay, we won't be able to do that, but let's put the effort in on creating fun, small stories and ideas that,lift that side things instead," And so we focused more on that than, doing it. it. So, so it would still, breed some Snask feeling of it, but not be, like, the visual side of it. 

Radim: If I could ask a question. So you mentioned obviously, like you guys are known for this very expressive, colorful style. Obviously, there is a Snask style, and it carries you so far that it's, precedes you in the world, which is amazing. But when you mentioned, did did the bands want to do something in that sort of more dreamier, pastel color style, and then realizing that the reality should be somewhere else?

Because what I want to really know, the question is, how much of that style is a asset, and how much could it be a liability to attracting new clients that potentially could work with Snask? But you know what people are like. They're like, you do that colorful stuff, but we want something different.

Can you do it?" Does it ever work that way?

Freddie: we rebranded Bang & Olufsen. In our world, they didn't end up very colorful. We work with so many banks, financial institutions that doesn't become Klarna, doesn't become that colorfulness. And to us, we choose color-colors, for example, a-according to the project, And Erik said, sometimes we have to tune down the colors, but then we can tune up to humor. Or maybe it's more fun to put the hives in a really boring office environment and have them rock the socks out of people, It's that is also for us Snasky, but I think for people out there, it's easier to see Snask style as very colorful, But we've done a lot of projects where it's not colorful. But yes, I don't think we will ever have a rebrand where a company wants to change and we'll dial down the boldness. I think that's not us. We'll... Somewhere we have to tune, turn it up. But there's always a balance

Radim: so this is interesting because you mentioned there's either a color or there's a humor. Like you said,when we dial down the color, then we go to humor. But what's really interesting, you said that it's always bold, like you always create bold work. And when you think about it, it's a bit like a DJ set or band set, when a good set is good, when it doesn't have the middle part, like everything's going strong all the way to the end.

Do you ever feel that the studio's kind of dialed out to, basically turned up to 11 all the time? Is there a craving for something which is more minimal, or is it the bold style, the, the 110% kind of going on all the time? it's Snask 110%, and is there ever opportunity to do something less? 'Cause I know, as you said, you did work for Bang & Olufsen and different stuff, and Bang's basically that is potentially, slightly less intense, but it's still Snask, right?

So do you ever look for something that's a bit more minimal, or it just, it's Snask all day long?

Erik: I don't think we look for something, but, it will arrive anyway. like we don't need to go searching for it. But I, it's that 110% too. Like,for us, it's one thing. For you, it's another thing. For the client, it's a third. what that means is like, you mentioned the Hives, like for them, those kind of the music videos to come with some idea that's more out there, they might be What?

Freddie: Come on. we need to push this further. This is nothing," you And someone else would of course be like: This is insane. We can't even be close to this. why did you even show this to us?" So I think it's in that way we can if it's Bang On Lu Sam, wecan be 110% with them, but it's a completely different measurement than with other clients, you know?Yeah, and then it's you mentioned before that we don't look like s- classic Scandinavian design studios or whatever, but if we would dress a person to go to a party, and we would indeed choose the a more boring navy color of the suit, we would demand it to be sartorially perfect.

 But we would always then add, do you n- do you then need to have wigs and some banter because to make it more charming, then this outfit works. While there's a normal, classic, boring, minimal- minimalistic Swedish agent would just be satisfied if the suit s- was perfect in a navy color, and they wouldn't mind about the rest.

Radim: I think we would then want-- But then we need to turn up the charm, the humor of this person in order for him or her to stand out, Humor. featured a few times. I wanna s- II wanna know, how transcending is humor across, continents or, countries or cultures. Because what's funny in one place potentially is not funny in another. How do you, dial it to the right perfection, if you can, to make sure that it works?

Is it just market specific or, do you look into different variations if you do global work? Because we've had clients here that they were like, "Okay, we wanna, know, have a global rebrand, and how do we do Japan and how do we do, United States?" You're like, differently."

Obviously, there's no real formula. But humor obviously is something that we all can sense and feel and it's somewhat universal, but there's still nuances in humor that, can be offensive to some people, and some people might be finding is the best thing in the world.

Freddie: why do you wanna talk about Germany, Redding? 

Radim: Abhi, 

let's go. 

Freddie: no, but I think that, for example, if you take British humor, I think it's brilliant because it's almost never push someone down. It's more to play with them in a way. It's more playful. it can be dry, but it's always playful and with a wink when it's at its best.

And I think that works in many cultures because you-- I don't know, it's somehow charming in a way. But also, Ias we said before bands in interviews, when they're not being just arrogant, but when they're actually being charming, funny, like Freddie Mercury in his interviews, flirting with the presenter so he gets nervous, It's just like cute, funny, and sharp. And I think it, transcends. we have clients all over the world, and when we go and meet them, we always entertain them and hang out with them, et cetera. And humor, yeah, it 

goes through 

Erik: I think it's a bit of a lie a made-up thing that the humor doesn't transcend into different, cultures or worlds. it's I think it works more or less everywhere. like to, people wanna laugh, people wanna, hear funny things like that.

but then of course they can be completely ignorant around like,oh, if we have Westernized reference in the humor. like then of course people might not understand it in Japan or something because they didn't grow up with that thing, whatever it is that we're joking about.

So of course in terms of the work you need to be aware and not think that you are everything in the world, et cetera. but in terms of like just laughing and having fun, and sometimes it's more like that people are afraid.

Oh, no, that we don't think that we can't do that," but they, because they might be upset or, "We should not say this there," We heard that so many times, and every it's gone out anyways, it's been like a success. They're like, "Oh, wow, this actually worked," or, you We've also been contacted by companies from other parts of the world where things should not have worked, but they contact us because they've seen that work, and they're like, "We never get this here, so we want this." So I think it's more about that we are afraid of each other yeah,it's a actual problem

Freddie: Yeah, and also I think it's a lot about the deliverance of the humor. to deliver a good

humor, also you have to be good at it, you have to have timing, but you also have to know who you are and who the audience is. often when we go up on stage, people already have a view of us.

 We're a bit mischievous, a bit provocative, and so we're in Seville, we say that, "Oh, you guys mix up Sweden and Switzerland." and they're like, "Ha, ha." Yeah, that could be a bit dramatic sometimes, and then we show but here's your priests, and then we show a picture of Ku Klux Klan. We know that they're gonna think it's funny even though it hurts them.

And then we say, "Oh, sorry, wrong slide. I think this was your priest." And there's almost no difference, and they've been hearing this joke 100 times. People outside of Seville might think that, "Ooh, that's daring of you to do that." When we talked to people afterwards, they were just like, "Oh, that's funny.

we heard that joke 100 times." So you have to understand the audience and also know how you deliver it. If we were going up as very serious speakers, which is not wrong, you can be that, and then just said it without laughing, and p- then it might be wrong. you have to also know who you are and how you deliver it 

and who the audience is. 

Radim: when you think about how standup comedy works, some of those jokes, if we were to say it in a birthday dinner or something, or family dinner on Sunday, we'd be like, "What are you on about?" But it's just that setting where people can let go, they can be more relaxed and actually enjoy it, actually receptive to something new.

So I think the way what you guys been doing with your work let's say,let's use Klarna as an example. Like it, it's a work that is just in a beautiful way, it's odd. It's so unusual. But the elements inside it, as you say,Erik, as you say, like the humor is universal because it works almost everywhere.

What-- I I'm, reference in one of your projects where, there's a person sitting on what looks like space-like sofa from, Stanley Kubrick, some sort of soft porn movie if he ever made one, It's just it's the unusualness that you've got so much of a visual feast to look upon that, youit almost creates the setting.

Obviously, it creates the perception of something's gonna happen and something's gonna be different.

Radim: he's not looking like Brad Pitt. He looks a bit funny, and that's also an important part to make that more fun. If he was just like sexy, good-looking man, then it's like it wouldn't be as funny of him laying there in his ugly pajama, Yeah. 

Erik: Yeah.

or a half-naked woman, which is the most classic marketing thing that people do. you have to be a little bit different, in some aspects for sure

Radim: My curious mind is thinking about how do you get this across the line? Because having run a studio that's worked digitally in 3D for, 

Erik: best part of two decades, the flexibility of doing stuff digitally is, remarkable. You can do whatever you want, anytime you want. But what you guys create is physical, 

Radim: it's, and it's not just "Oh, let's pop to Ikea and get a couple of things and smash them together and paint it blue," or whatever. It's very bespoke, it's very unique, it's surreal. It's It's kind of I was gonna use the word psychedelic, but I'm not sure if I should take this one out.

 But obviously you've created the delivery of the humor so well that the attention to detail is remarkable. you stand up for something, but how do you get your clients to see the project? How do you mechanically deliver it that you can then produce all of this stuff, create these props and these sets, and then work on this?

Because obviously that requires imagination on your part. It requires you selling it to the client. So let's say selling it as in convincing them that's what they want to do, and them buying into it. How does that process work? Because it could be Klarna, it could be any other of your projects, it's as expressive.

But how much of a vision do you need to put into this, and how much conviction do you need to show, and how do you visualize it? And I, Iappreciate this is about seven question in one, but in terms of a production, like how do you get it across to ... 'Cause I'm, I'm curious.

Freddie: starting point is that you need the client to understand where are you today and where, do you want to go. and that difference for where they are today and where they wanna go is, the change we have to make. And then we go into then, how do we then change it?

And then we hold them by the hand through the process, and they will almost understand themselves that we need to push stuff. We need to push things, and then it's all about pro-protecting the idea. You would have been doing this a lot 

with clients, of course

Erik: and it's often also like why are we even working together from the first place? I mean, Sometimes they come to us because they are like, "Hey, we love the Klarna stuff that you do. We want it." You know,then it's like, " Okay, then we have to do it this way."

You you can often, reference, what we're creating and why did you like this thing?" it's often the answer's there in the actual work, it's in the project. why are we here, And and Freddy said, defend, inspire with the ideas. Have fun doing it, but it's not, super easy sometimes because what people don't understand is that, it takes time, and it costs money and, like the Klarna stuff had a lot of great budgets.

It had a lot of, great actual time to do it too and stuff. that's why we could into detail, and we could really, explore those worlds and find the extra whatever it was. just, the material or,the actual craft or if it was more, trying out ideas and coming up with that edge.

Erik: and the hardest part that, many people then come, and they're like, "Oh, we want that thing, but, we want it tomorrow." Or, "We have a fourth of the budget." then it's not possible in one way, 

 like... So many people, what we love and get inspired by is often the extreme stuff. So if you start like, what music do you love? Like, and most people have, these artists and bands and things that stand out and dare to do things.

And you, if you start bringing these things up and like, " What would this person have done in this case?" You know. Freddy said, when we work with, the brands from the start, we often try to find this persona with them, so we can make these type of decisions through that persona,

Erik: I think, it's half of the battle because when you push out a work that's so ownable and such of a signature style, obviously with the color, humor, and all of the, things in between, I think it's half of the battle to get clients who can see what you do and what you can do.

Radim: As you said, Erik, sometimes, they will come with quarter of a budget and 10 minutes to make it, and it's the education how to do it. It's sometimes, it's education to tell them that it's potentially not possible and there's a way to do it. But what I wanted to know, I think I've heard you guys talking to Eliza Williams from Creative Review on a panel which was beautifully humorous again.

Talking about clients, was there a client that ended up with a tattoo of something? 

What was the story? 

Freddie: we were working with, this huge company in the US and our prop master, he asked us like, "Should we tattoo ourselves at the end of the shoot at the wrap party?" We're like, "Yeah, sure." so he hid a tattoo machine in his budget, and he brought it out after the shoot, and we were like, "Wow, he really did this."

And then we basically had to... We never tattooed anyone. We never assembled the tattoo machines. We had to YouTube it how to assemble it. And this girl she was an illustrator. She had never tattooed anyone. She was like, "Yeah, I would love to tattoo someone." So she watched a video, and then she tattooed an orange, and then she started with tattooing me, and then Erik, and then the client came, who never had a tattoo in her life, and it ended up with her fainting.

The client manager was with a blanket on her and saying, "What the fuck did you do with our live client?" 

Erik: We really tried her not to get this tattoo, I just want to say. We weren't like, "Yeah, sit down." Like, no, no. we, this is probably not a great idea. This is just for fun. This is just us, you know, whatever." " No, I want one too." we had to listen to the client and step away, and she

Freddie: Yeah. But it did land us even more work because then the client moved to another company, and we ended up going over and doing even more work with her. And then she ended her email with the picture of her tattoo, that we had matching tattoos. So yeah

Radim: it makes it sound like the Uma Thurman moment. And obviously I'm sure there's less heroin involved in this situation, but it's Uma Thurman in "Pulp Fiction," So this is interesting. So let's talk about how are your sort of mechanics, because obviously you mentioned, let's say, your client with a tattoo ended up going somewhere else.

And how do you guys get new work? Because I would like to believe that obviously with the signature style of what you do and how you create work and what you put out there, how you speak, how you present yourself, it speaks for itself. And if someone's looking for something more expressive, they will really find you.

But is there anything that you have to do in terms of bringing in new work, or do you just-- have you done enough for the work come to you all the time?

Freddie: we've been trying to get work ourselves. It almost never works. Cold calling doesn't work in our industry. so I think just bringing out as much as we can of ourselves and what we do Then we never know what brings us work. we could do a talk in Slovenia that then lands us another talk in Azerbaijan, and then after that we got a work from someone who heard that from someone who went to the Azerbaijan conf.

Erik: It's impossible to know where it comes from. Or someone read our book and recommended it to a friend or, But everything we do with conviction, and we want to do it because we think it's fun, and we think it says something. We didn't do Shower Bear to make money. We did it because we were bored and thought this was a great idea, Yeah. we're not like amazing salespeople or businesspeople. That, not like why we went into this business, so to say. We didn't even see it as a business. It's more to have fun, and then I think the more we got our work out there, and we show, and we talk, and we do whatever,it's a higher-- obviously a higher chance that people see it and come to us to ask.

maybe when we have this, style and the, attitude in our work, it's always so much better obviously if people come with a idea that they want to work with us than the opposite, because we're not like the other big agencies and stuff. So for us to coming in from the side with no one knowing what we are and what we do, it becomes a little bit weird hopefully, people still reach out. 

Radim: Once upon a time, your talks featured a, even a live band. What was that like? did you keep them sober enough to show up to do their 

bit? 

Freddie: Sounds like you already know 

the answer to this question, Radan.

Erik: Yeah, 

Freddie: they ended up writing themselves out of that act by actually not being able to be sober for even one hour on stage. But the story is actually that we started bringing them on tour because we felt the keynote speeches in the design museum were not entertaining, and we came from music, and we wanted to speak last, and we felt like we want to entertain.

We want people to wake up, and so we're like, "We should have a house band on stage." like a talk show, and we also signed Erik's band, like kicked the trombonist signed the new the person and dressed them in a certain way and had them sing in Swedish instead of English, and then we brought them everywhere we went.

They've been playing in, on Colombian radio, and they've been all over US and South Africa, and they almost never played in Sweden, which is very funny

Radim: and I think you've got it absolutely right, was you always, I think you guys always look at the situation of what it is and what it can be and how much better it can be. Because I think with design talks you never really have the right template of what can be good, what can be interesting, because you've got 2,000 people in the audience and you've got potentially 2,000 different expectations of what it should be.

Humor's universal, color's universal a little bit, expression is universal, you got someone who will love it and someone who will hate it. And in a way, how much-- when did you realize that you need, actually needed to create something which is more entertaining? Like did you,did you have to sit through, a few conferences or did you know it right from the start going, "You know what?

We can bring a band with us. We can make it more entertaining."

Freddie: I think we instantly knew that we could make it better, and we wanted to make something different. But if you look at the first ever talk we did was Creative Mornings with Snask. The band that had played in this place the n- night before, they got too drunk and never had the energy to bring their drum set, and it's always very heavy.

And so they just left it there to pick it up a few days later. So when we went on stage, it was already there. So Erik dressed up as a bunny, and then he played with teaspoons. on that first ever lecture that is recorded Erik is already on stage playing on this drum kit with tablespoons.

 And that from there it basically was, "Okay, we need to do this all the time now." 

Erik: that definitely sparked the idea, I think, of that part. it was-- But it's, so stupid. It's just you suddenly see something, you're like, "Wait, we can do this. Of course." And then it was 

full on. 

Freddie: we never wanted, we always want to push it. We never wanted like,"Oh, let's have an agency band where Freddy plays guitar, Magnus plays bass, everything." We never wanted that like some people do. We wanted it to have to be a really good band, and it should be a real rock band, and that's why we signed Erik's band, and they are really good musicians.

but that's also why they're not with us anymore because they are real musicians and maybe also too happy with, drinking

Erik: I think that was also, it was like a fun, we did it for many years and it was super fun. we didn't even then do it at every conference. We did it at most of them. And I would also say we do even more conferences now, so it would be a mess to, it would be so much to do.

But I, I, think it's like with most things in life, whatever you do it for a time, and then you feel oh, it's super fun or whatever, and then after a while you want to do something else or a little bit different and whatever, you know?

Radim: I think it was Noel Gallagher who said, obviously he's always funny in his interviews, and he says, "There's a reason why there's very few bands now, because the record labels don't want a group of guys drunk on a Tuesday being totally useless," because you get people... And he used itas the example of Harry Styles, and it's like, "Shut up, wear this, do that, sing this, do that," 

And I think hit it on at the beginning of a conversation. You got more people who are more obedient to the system, it's easier to go with the flow and do something of yours. yours. And, and again, I'm not saying that Harry Styles is getting it wrong. obviously I think what he's created recently is really good, even though I wasn't a fan before.

 But it's that sort of pack mentality when we talked about the music and I'm like, how do you get, I don't know, a band of men or band of humans together believing into something? Because I don't think there's anything better in life than creating music with people. having been in bands before as a teenager and, young adolescent, there's one of-- To create a song with people that you've, that you're friends with and you create something out of nothing, it's a different level of creativity and it's almost four or five senses that come together.

Not that you can taste it, there's something in it. And I think just to put it out there and have it as a group of people is remarkable because I think we are heading towards this sort of slimmer margin of how many people it requires to make music, and it's normally just one, and there's a sort of this greediness of attention where anyone can do anything with all the tools.

So I think having that element that you guys had in the past with a band and having people adding the extra element I think is remarkable. What I wanna know, how do you... I think in the words of John Hegarty who says, "Every McCartney needs their Lennon or every Lennon needs their McCartney," how do you two work together?

How do you vibe with each other and complement one another or how do you annoy each other like Lennon and McCartney?

Freddie: Erik inspires me so much, and we are, of course, similar in so many ways and where we want us to go, but also we think differently in many ways as well, which is very inspiring for me because I think that it would be boring to have someone who thought exactly like me, you know?And I think that when I look at Snask, I can really see that the genius of Snask is our two minds combined, that-- I can come up with an idea, and Erik can then twist it into something a hundred times better that I wouldn't have been able to do without him or vice versa. I think that's, something that is, yeah, really interesting for us

Erik: Yeah. I totally agree. it's a funny dynamic in that, but it's often like that... I think it's that thing that maybe it's also-- it's difficult to be edging the forefront of things or do, it's like it's-- everyone's just thinks this is to be, just do it how- whene- whenever, however, like it's not...

like it's fucking hard work because everything is gonna be against you. It's always gonna be the norm to do it in some other way. So often when we have ideas, it's can be start of something, but then maybe the other one needs to come in and lift it to like,because it's like, yeah, it's good, but it's normal now or like it's not, we should do it even further.

and then I think that's where we are good. We're like-- we're both much like yes sayers in that situation. but then also to be honest, like we we don't work that much with the clients we do different things in the comp- like we don't...

Our roles, if we want to see it our day-to-day, is not something that you do work-- you don't work together in those roles really. but then it's also because it does become more difficult with the client. then you have to take them or what they're saying you need to figure it out more, and that's when it can become trickier, I think, because that's when it becomes a third thing going on, and you have to adapt to it, and then we might not agree with each other, what to, how to, in what way we should approach this the client feedback or whatever, While when we do our own things, which we do a lot, then it's just there's not much breaking going on, or we don't need. it's amazing. 

Radim: In your manifesto, when you talk about stuff it's amazing that one of your sort of main messages is actually make enemies. like this is almost the antidote or the swimming against the current in our industry because you will get people who says, "Oh, we're doing it for the fans."

why? And who are your fans?

Erik: in our studio down the street like, we have that on the wall make enemies and gain fans. And then there was like one time it was a woman who came in middle of the day, and she's like: "Why do you have this? Why do..." We were like: "What? What do you mean?"

"This is Trump. This is what Trump... You, you made Trump." " And we were like: "What?" you mean?" She was so angry with us that she thought that Trump had taken our strategy and our saying and made the world worse. But we were like: "Okay. It's true that he has done that, but we can't,

Radim: yeah,I think there's a difference between enemies. I think how you understand stuff, because again, you got that reality of, 2,000 people and everyone will understand it differently. And I remember I used to be represented as an illustrator by an agency called Jelly, and they had a poster from Alison Carmichael, which spelled in hand lettering C-U-N-T.

And in England we were like, "Ha, isn't that amazing? This is really funny." And I remember my agent Chris took the posters to New York and they were Off the table now. Now, just get rid of this. Like this, this doesn't work." And I think that nuances of like how do you get people revved up or excited, I think it's always so interesting because you can show two people the same thing and one of them will love it and one of them will not.

But when did you come to believing in the fact that, some people really need to dislike your work? Not necessarily that you're gonna make them dislike it, but when did you realize it's okay not to be loved by everyone?

Freddie: I think it was very early, like second year of existence, we were starting to have people thinking like, "Oh," saying stuff about us, or, "They're young and naive, and they think they can do whatever they want," and blah, blah, blah. And we realized that we can't and, or will never want to please everyone. And especially what we do comes from value-based opinions that we stand for, then I think it's good that people then oppose themselves against it.

If they don't agree with our values, that's what they should. And also in the same way, people will then also like what we say because they agree with it. And the nightmare for us would be genErik in the middle, and no one thinks anything about us. And I think that's, that's what we believe in with branding as well, that brands need to have opinions and stand up for them.

And if they do this, they will get enemies, but they will also get fans. And if you have 1% of the world as your fans, you will be extremely successful as a company. So people are afraid of this, but it's not logical. It's not a logical thought. they think it's too risky even though it's not.

So I think for us it's came a lot from there

Radim: referenced Rory Sutherland quite a few times on my podcast, and he said that in one of his the world is run by people who don't believe in magic, Or run mostly by people who don't believe in magic. And I think when you see someone who's created something, almost including your guys, and when you see something that has really pushed into new realms, that initially...

It's a bit like an album by someone you love and they create something different. You're like, "What's happened here?" People say, "I was expecting something different." And I'm thinking, "What has it got to do with you?" Because it's not your output, you're not the artist. It's like, why would you expect that?

But obviously it's that belief and as you said in your word before, a conviction to actually create something that would push people, that would make them think something.

 That would be, yeah, definitely the way of pushing ideas and how do we move forward?

Because in the current world of branding, everything's so homogenized that you can have an amazing brand from Buenos Aires and from Japan, and they can look exactly the same because the template's been out there.

Freddie: Yeah. No, exactly. we were inspired by Tibor Kalman who said, "When you make something no one hates, no one loves it." And he was stood behind like United Colors of Benetton's all these campaigns that people are like, "Oh, this is so controversial," when they showed three human hearts and said "These are from-- We all have the same heart.

Doesn't matter the color of us." And people thought it was extremely provocative. But it's like, what is provocative about it? But it's great advertisement And we thought that's so true. Like, when you make something no one hates, no one loves it. And why do you want to make art or poetry or music or anything that no one cares anything about?

It's doesn't make any sense

Radim: yeah, good old Thibault Kaeman. I think that, that quote is wakes you up sometimes because the making of a modern creative is like You want to do work that you want to enjoy, at least from what I'm hearing on, from younger generations.

Radim: they wanna do work they want to enjoy. They don't wanna work on something that they would disagree with, and they would like the work to be universally accepted. Only then to realize that such work doesn't exist most of it. And then, like, how do you recalibrate to the fact that, it's actually nice to have some people not to like your stuff because when you allow yourself that self-acceptance, it's a part of the book, " Daring Forever," that I've got a chapter on literally on acceptance and like realizing, "This is who I am.

This is the type of work I do, and some people will like it and some people will not." 

Freddie: and I don't agree, I don't like Zara Larsson's music, but I do love the way she upholds her values. recently she made a joke on her Instagram about... 'Cause she's, of course pro-abortion. She ma- just made a joke about it, and then people were like, "Oh, you're gonna get your whole tour canceled."

And a big sponsor pulled out from AmErika from her, and then she just wrote another thing and said, "I don't fucking care. This is fine. I lost this much of money. This is how much they were gonna pay me, and that's fine now because I say where I come from is my own values." I think that's, refreshing in a world where at s- at least pop artists are supposed to say nothing 

and 

be afraid 

Erik: when we were talking about before with, this, everyone is just, t-thought so hard that you cannot s-- do something like that because if you do, you will lose money and power, and that's what it's all about. about. You know, if you do this, it's over.

it's so-- you're so crazy how they managed to,go in and, own everyone in that sense now it's the World Cup. It's all the football players. It's the same thing. It's all about money. It's all about that world. and if you do anything that will har-harm that, then you're over.

 so I agree, with Sara Larsson. It's amazing that she did that and can actually show that it's possible to lose something, and it's okay, You s-so you can stand up for something that you believed in, it's so hard nowadays for people to, accept that,

I 

Radim: I think we can spend another hour talking about money itself because I Googled yesterday that Ronaldo's worth like 1.3 billion. It's like, why? do you need that much money? What are you gonna do with it? it's just like when you think about like where is the end of the strive, greed, this is just, mad.

Freddie: he's worth that much money, and then this morning I read that, he gets a question about Lionel Messi, and he refused to answer it and turned away. He's bec- like a child think about all the success, all the, again, the money, everything, but it's all comes down to being a little, boy inside, a little human that only has emotions and only, goes about that, know? So That's what it's all about. I'm sure he would trade everything against, being the highest goal scorer in World Cup ever, And he's like, his life is sh*t. even though how much money he has no friends. If you anyone watched a documentary about him, it's just fucking sad. 

 but then we have Jonas Olsson, a Swedish kind of not super great defender in West Bromwich for a while, and he got the question in British media or something like, 

Who would you want to be if you could be anyone in the world? Would it be Cristiano Ronaldo?" He's like, " What? No, I would not. I would want to be Bob Dylan." Like, why the fuck would I want to be Cristiano Ronaldo or Lionel Messi? They have shitty lives, and they don't think of anything about anyone.

They don't know anything about the world. And he was just blatantly blatantly like, " No, I would like to be Bob Dylan." And I think that's refreshing in the football world. It's like, why would you want to be Cristiano Ronaldo? It's 

Radim: Yeah. this is a whole another debate. But guys, it was so great to see you and get a flavor of what you guys do on this 

because You've been unmistakably snusk right from the start. I think you'll be unmistakably snusk forever, and I love what you guys been creating.

Commercially, I was gutted I never got a hold of your shower beer when it was in circulation. That was a shame. But yeah, I really wanna see what you guys do, especially in the spaces where you can play, where you can be just snusk and just, have that punk rock attitude still again.

what does the world need? what can we create? where we can take some of the corporate budgets and actually create magic because, yeah, you are definitely more than just an agency. You're definitely more than just creatives, and it's always so great to see you. So yeah, thank you for today.

And stay where you are. It's amazing.

Freddie: Thank you so much 

Erik: Super nice. Thank you. 

Radim: Hey, thank you for joining me on this episode of Daring Forever Podcast. As always, I'd love to know your thoughts, questions, and even suggestions, so please get in touch via the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, Radim Malinic. The audio production was done by Niall Mackay from Seven Million Bikes Podcast.

 thank you for being here, and I hope to catch you on the next episode 

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