Luke Woodhouse, Executive Creative Director at Ragged Edge, shares his 15-year journey from a four-person studio to a 40-person powerhouse creating category-defining brands. 

This conversation explores the evolution of branding from nice websites to transformative digital ecosystems, revealing what it takes to create work that generates immediate business impact. 

Luke discusses major projects including Wise's global rebrand and Solflare's bold cryptocurrency positioning, explaining how Ragged Edge works with clients who are "confident in the unknown" to create brands that users adopt and celebrate. 

He shares practical insights on keeping concepts loose while opinions stay strong, collaborating deeply with in-house teams, and why getting comfortable with uncomfortable is essential for breakthrough creative work.

Key takeaways

• Self-selecting clients are the best clients—when you stand for something bold, people who share your mindset will seek you out rather than needing convincing
• Keep early concepts rough and loose to invite client collaboration, which prevents teams from becoming too precious while helping clients feel ownership of the direction
• The concept should be the creative director, not personal opinions—focus on communicating the core idea in the strongest way possible rather than aesthetic preferences
• Testing for distinctiveness matters more than testing for likability—brands need to stand out, and uncomfortable feelings toward something new are often positive signals
• Build real-life relationships at project kickoff and during initial concepts when ideas are most delicate and nuanced conversations determine direction
• Deep collaboration with product and in-house design teams three-quarters through the project helps stress-test brand elements and find the balance between disruption and usability
• Case studies that explain why and how, not just pretty pictures, are crucial for winning new work because people love ideas and stories
• Separation of self-worth from work is essential—celebrate talented people pushing hard while maintaining a "no ego" approach where the work is what matters
• Different means new, new means unfamiliar, and unfamiliar is uncomfortable—getting comfortable with this discomfort is where breakthrough creativity lives
• The trend toward agency and in-house teams working as one unified team will continue growing, leveraging client expertise on their business to get great work launched

Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic

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[00:00:00] 

Luke Woodham: Yeah. So in terms of the initiative and like why we started it, it was because the change maker thing had become industry convention a little bit. everyone was talking about change, everyone's talking about change maker. We realized that we needed to stand out again. So that was like the main impetus.

Luke Woodham:  but also sort of when we did sort of relaunch the brand. in 2019 with that positioning, we sort of went for it. we pushed and we created an entity that was, I guess, divisive. Like even for me, like some days I loved it. Sometimes, some days I hated it. and I think over time we had realized we sort of, it didn't really reflect perhaps who we are now, because it was just going so hard and we,we felt we were a very different agency now I think, than we are sort of like the outsiders, the sort of challengers.

Luke Woodham:  and now we're sort of up there competing [00:01:00] with, the best in the world, Welcome to the Daring Creativity Podcast, a show about daring to forever explore creativity that isn't about chasing shiny perfection. It's about showing up with all your doubts and imperfections and making them count. It's about becoming more of who you already are. My name is Radim Malinic I'm a designer, author, and eternally curious human being.

 I am talking to a broad range of guests who share their stories of small actions that sparked lifetime discoveries, taking one step towards the thing that made them feel most alive. 

 Let me begin this episode with a question. Are you ready to discover what happens when you dare to create? 

Radim: Today I'm speaking with Luke Woodhouse, executive Creative Director at Ragged Edge, a [00:02:00] London based studio that makes category defining work. in this conversation, Luke discusses why the best creative work lives in the space where a client feels genuinely uncomfortable. How Ragged Edge makes the concept the creative director to eliminate ego battles by preserving creative ambition.

 He also opens up the two year journey To rebrand Rugged Edge itself. I got to hear about the process and the benefits. We also talked about real life relationship building with clients who are confident in the unknown during the process of making bold bets on the future. It's my pleasure to share with you my conversation with Luke Woodhouse. 

Hey, Luke, it's great to have you on the show. How are you doing?

Luke Woodham: Very good. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me on. long time listener. First time caller.

Radim: Luke, it's a pleasure to have you on the show because I am a big fan of Ragged Edge of what you guys do, how you do it, [00:03:00] and it was just about time to get you on the show to talk more about, you know, the evolution of Ragged Edge, the work that you do.

And I thought it'd be great to switch the gears today and actually really talk about branding, because you are right in the middle of it, of what's happening right now. So I thought, you know what? Let's do that. But if somebody hasn't heard of Luke Woodhouse or Ragged Edge, who are you? What you do, please introduce yourself.

Luke Woodham: Oh my goodness. Yeah. Who am I? yeah, so I'm,I'm Luke. I'm one of the executive credit directors at Ragged Edge. I've been at Ragged Edge for a long time, like I think it's about 15 years now. there was just four of us when I joined and now there's 40 incredible people. and I think, the team just keeps getting better and better, as we go on, as we figure out what the hell we're doing here.

Luke Woodham: and it's just a real privilege to be part of that and like just amazing to be part of this incredibly talented team that we're,we're building here.

Radim: Wow, you said 15 years and 14 people, I mean like literally four people when you started.

seen a real change [00:04:00] in pretty much well, how, how agency can no grow and change as well as seen a shift in branding for the last 15 years.

Luke Woodham: what was the jump to join Ragged Edge and what draw you to, to the outfit and what did it feel like 15 years ago to actually be at a, just something that potentially you, neither of you knew what you might be building.

Yeah. I think, so that was about 2009. and it was sort of, coming out the tail end of the big sort of recession. and I'd actually been main redundant like twice in eight months. And, as a result of that, I just started freelancing Round town. and I'd been at a few different places and I sort of landed at Ragged Edge 'cause they had this office in Mayfair.

They had some nice clients who were doing nice work and I could see that sort of, we, we sort of had a sort sort of shared mindset and the kind of work we like to do. So, honestly, at that time it was like, Quite modernist in principle and the projects at Ragged Edge, the typical project was just like, do a nice brand for a nice client [00:05:00] and create a nice website for them.

 So, just had this real nice cycle of projects where we'd just do the brand, do the website, and then go around again the whole time. We had some nice things from Greg Guz vodka, and so like the people at Ragged Edge, were great to work with you know, max and, Matt, the other founder.

Luke Woodham: it was just the work was really great. The people were really great and I'd just come from like really big agencies where there was like, I don't know, five creative directors all with different opinions and things like that. And I got to Ragged Edge and sort of, max let me sort of take the lead a little bit and I really enjoyed that.

and I guess having my own way with the work and sort of Max was Max Matt, I really supportive of that and I just really enjoyed that whole process and it was quite. Freeing to come to a much smaller, much agile, much more agile place. and we just built from there and to sort of just try to get better and better with each 

project. 

Radim: having been on the sidelines watching the progression and evolution of Ragged Edge, would you describe at the beginnings, like nice clients, nice work, nice output, nice website, that's it. But there was this [00:06:00] real shift when you guys came out with your ragged Edge 2.0

and said okay, we are here for the change makers.

And lots of conversation that I've had on this podcast with likeI or Simon, it was about the fact that you follow your belief, you follow your messaging, and you follow the principles and your values and your strategy. Then the rest of the world shows up and go, Hey, we are here for the change makers too.

 And you're like, wait a minute. You know, there, let's say Dixon and Backseat was about bravery line. Know, creating brave brands, 

changes the world. And you guys have done that in the past. And I like to believe that was quite successful at first. 'cause obviously what you decided to stand for was very much a statement to say, this is what we are here for.

Luke Woodham: Yeah, it was a real statement. I think that was a real moment for us. 'cause I think, up until that point, I guess, we'd been, in terms of how we presented ourselves to the world, we perhaps didn't necessarily put out a really strong point of view. And we were just like, I guess we were sort of arguably, looking at the [00:07:00] outside influences and things like that. and I guess we sort of always felt like we're outsiders in the way we had presented ragged Edge up to that point had been sort of almost trying to fit in with what a branding agency should be and look like. And it was quite nice.

Luke Woodham: but honestly, the way we sort of, the sort of work that we really believed in, the sort of work we really wanted to do, we wanted to do stuff that was really different stuff that really drive stuff that really drives like meaningful change, for a business. and we,we knew that to do that, you had to be sort of really bold.

You had to put yourself out there and you needed to push to, to do something, different. And that's something that we always like really naturally believed in. but perhaps we didn't, we had up to that point, we had never quite articulated it in a, in such a strong way. and so. was a real statement and we really went for it, and we really put out this really strong point of view and presented it in such a way.

Luke Woodham: and that worked incredibly well for us because, it meant that clients became sort of self-selecting, meaning that people who shared that mindset, people who shared [00:08:00] that belief and that ambition would come to us and we wouldn't be, it meant that we weren't like pushing this philosophy on them.

 They were already sort of believers and they already wanted to, work with people who believed the same thing. And so, yeah, for a period of time that, that positioning, that change maker thing that was working so well for us. And yeah, I mean, when we did it, honestly, we sort of built the brand around this idea of being a brand for change makers because no one else was using that language.

No one else was talking like that. And yet, after a period of time, it, everyone else seemed to sort of seemingly came to a similar conclusion, which meant that we had to like. Look for a way to stand out again. and that was the point of this latest rebrand.

Radim: it's interesting what you said about self-selecting clients. I think it's literally like when you stand for something. There will be some people for you and some people against you,

but that's okay because obviously you've got those people who actually can understand what you're trying to achieve, because how would you say the mindset of a natural change maker, [00:09:00] because of course we still have the people who are self-selecting or who are self

believing in them, being the change makers, but how is the mindset of people who are actually trying to do know things for the good of the planet or for the good of the human society? How would you say that the language and the belief and the philosophies of such clients has changed? Or are we in the 2.0 of change makers? How would you see that?

Luke Woodham: I think they've, those people have. Always been there and always will be. And there'll always be clients that just need the sort of safer thing appealing to a particular common denominator. those will always exist. but I think we know that those sorts of clients probably aren't for us or rather, we would rather be pushing for something different and more creative and interesting and all of that.

Luke Woodham: and so I think like the mindset that we always look for is first of all the people who are kind of confident, like in the unknown and and our trusting of the process that if we travel [00:10:00] across this sort of like unknown territory that we'll get to somewhere really good if we just sort of push forward with the, the idea and the strategy and all of that good stuff.

 So it's the sort of mindset is the people who sort of really believe in what could be and sort. Care less about, you know, what has been and what other people are doing. But also I think what we notice is that, on the client side, you need people who really know their own mind and are comfortable making decisions.

 And I think, also in terms of getting this work through on the client side, you need people who are willing to like really push and really commit to this thing and sort of arguably put their neck on a line a little bit.

Radim: said something really interesting. You said they need to be confident in the unknown, and that is a big ask.

 how much of the work sometimes do you have to do to make your people feel confident in the unknown?

Because the unknown is very much the unknown

Luke Woodham: Yeah.

Radim: labor and the obvious.

Luke Woodham: Yeah. I think [00:11:00] part of that is comes down to building really good relationships with the clients. And so, The start of the project's really important. The immersion's really important. I think we've found that getting together in real life, is kind of crucial at the start of a project to build that relationship.

Luke Woodham:  so we have clients these days sort of in all different parts of the world, but, and so it's, it would be easy not to get together in real life. but we found that is something that's really important when you want to sort of travel across these, unknown territories with people.

And you sort of have to have that relationship. So you sort of have really good conversations about, what it could be, where it could go, and sort of trust each other, that we're all pushing for the best of the work. and so I think being confident in the unknown just sort of means like trusting the process and knowing that we'll get through it together and working through it together.

Radim: I think we both agreed that the process of being a designer or being a creative or brand director on ECD,it's [00:12:00] part a therapist, it's part of a

guiding light of trust us, this will go well. Because there is something in our psychology when we are doing something for ourselves, we are doubting ourselves like, oh,this blue.blue. But when we are working for other people, most of us, I would, I don't wanna sort of generalize this too much, but there is an element of confidence and because you are focused,you're in your executive mind and therefore you focus in on the task ahead and you don't necessarily entertain it if, and but, and can this go wrong?

And kinda 'cause you're trying, you're there to deliver. And as you said, you know, traveling and seeing clients in real life, it strengthens that relationship.

Because what's really interesting, what you just said leads back to episode I just published this week. It was with Joel Pilger, who's an advisor to the studios. And he says You can work from anywhere, but you can't get work from anywhere because to make meaningful work, you need relationships, you need to travel, you need to work in client's shoes. 

how much of the travel and how much of the experience for you as an ECD do you get with these clients and how has it changed your process especially [00:13:00] with the travel and seeing clients? Because once upon a time it's, it's easy to get a brief through an email and going, let's do it, and hope for the best.

Luke Woodham: Yeah. to be honest, it hasn't really changed the process loads. We just sort of choose to do certain parts of the process in real life, and there are different parts where you get the most benefit from, being in the same room and doing the work together in the same room. So in terms of the process, that'd be like near the beginning, like in the immersion once you've kicked off.

Luke Woodham: and then another really important part would be, like initial concepts, whether that's territories for strategy or concepts for the identities. those are the moments where conversations you have and the work you do on the work is best had all in the same room because sort of, I suppose, because those are the moments when the ideas, at their most delicate and the sort of nuance in the conversation and being able to really understand everyone is so crucial to the direction the work could take.

because I think, you [00:14:00] know, on Zoom being remote, you know, things can get lost in translation. so yeah, those are the moments that we sort of choose to be in the same room.

Radim: So how does it work in practical way? when you're in the concept stages when the idea is delicate and there's a lot of nuance, is the client involved? Do they come to you or do you come to them for this initial period?

the reason why I ask this question, and the reason why I want to know the answer to this is that when it's delicate and is nuanced and it's messy and it's not there yet, and I'm gonna paraphrase Johnny, ive sometimes, ideas can be killed by people with opinions who try to prove their worth. So you getting people involved into a very tricky stage

where, anything goes, but is it too many cooks?

Luke Woodham: Yeah. yeah. I love that quote. That's a good one. in terms of how, like the logistics of it, sometimes we go to them, sometimes they come to us. Yesterday, we had a client in our office yesterday that had come over from Norway, and we had a really good workshop and went out for drinks and things last night.

Luke Woodham: And I think next time they're talking about taking us to [00:15:00] Barcelona for the next round of cre of presentation. And it's just, we just work it out and sort of take it in turns a little bit. Sometimes they come to us, sometimes we go to them, and just try to make it work for everyone who's on the project, like our team and their team as well.

So it's pretty, pretty relaxing. We just work it out.

Radim: 

so let's kind of forward it to where you are with Rugged Edge now because you've recently. Refresh your branding, rebrand it. the language has changed.

the visual stuff has changed and now the website says never be the same again. the first time I had Mackay speak in like 20 18, 20 19, no, that was before the 2.0. It was like, look, we are gonna rebrand becausewe want to do something for ourselves that we do for our clients.

 And as you've quite beautifully explained earlier, like, this is what's happened. And now you ended up in what? It's now 3.0.

mm-hmm.It's taken a while, I believe. Because

it's always never of, the process there goes fast. if we can start from the top, like where is the initiative?

What is the sort of review of [00:16:00] the studio so far, and how do you decide on, where do you go expedit it?

Luke Woodham: Yeah. So in terms of the initiative and like why we started it, it was because like, yeah, the change maker thing had become sort of, industry convention a little bit. everyone was talking about change, everyone's talking about change maker. We realized that we needed to stand out again. So that was like the main impetus.

Luke Woodham: but also sort of when we did sort of relaunch the brand. in 2019 with that positioning, we sort of went for it. we pushed and we created an entity that was, I guess, divisive. Like even for me, like some days I loved it. Sometimes, some days I hated it. and I think over time we had realized we sort of, it didn't really reflect perhaps who we are now, because it was just going so hard and we,we felt we were a very different agency now I think, than we are sort of like the outsiders, the sort of challengers.

Luke Woodham: and now we're sort of up there competing with, the best in the world, I think. and so we sort of needed a brand and identity [00:17:00] that sort of reflected that positioning a bit better and felt a bit more true to who we are. and yeah, so we were just, in terms of how we started with strategy and as Max said, we tried to do what we did for clients.

Luke Woodham: Intentions were good. We wanted to run it like a proper project. and it probably ended up taking about two years, like from start to finish. Um,obviously we weren't working on it the whole time. but as with anything internal client work would come along and that's the first thing to get bumped and pushed along.

Luke Woodham: so yeah, that's sort of like how and why we started and how and why it took so long.

Radim: How dependent is the rebrand for new business? Is it something nice to have or do, did you see it as an important thing to have?

Luke Woodham: It's a, I would say it's a very important thing to have. It's pretty crucial. And, I would say that it was quite frustrating. Like the delay was quite frustrating 'cause we felt like we knew that our, what our new brand was gonna become would work really hard for us. And so, yeah, I would [00:18:00] say it is really crucial.

yeah.

Radim: Did you ever think of getting a third party involved, like getting someone else's view, someone else's input? ' cause in, in the past I've seen design studios rebranding other design studios because someone

is too close to it. So that was my thought. Did you ever think of anyone to break the dead luck?

Luke Woodham: yeah, we did a little bit. we brought in a freelance designer who we really love working with, to like,help give us a little boost, sort of in the middle of it. and that was great 'cause it just meant that, we could, just have someone outside of the studio moving it forward for us.

Luke Woodham: they gave us a real good boost,and got it moving and then. Picked it up again with the team in-house. So yeah. that helped. and I sort of really love the idea of doing that. Like the famous one is biblio Tech doing moving brands identity, which is iconic. love the idea of it, but also sort of wanna do ourselves as well, you know, don't wanna give it away.

Radim: To be proud of what you've created. I'm gonna skip ahead before I come back, but obviously now it's out in the open. It was quite well [00:19:00] documented in design press. People talked about it extensively. Now we've established that it's an important thing to have.

what was the outcome? What was the sort of uplift on the business and results to see, oh, is it something that trickles down a bit slower?

Luke Woodham: honestly, it was kind of immediate there's a very direct line between, us launching our new website and it winning us work because we're in the middle of, rebranding someone. Obviously that's what we do all the time. But one of our clients saw our new website and just literally said, send us a quote for one of those, please.

Luke Woodham: and that, that's the feedback you want, right? immediate direct results that you can tangibly tie back to business impact. And that is, that was the best compliment. yeah.

Radim: As you know,the theme of the podcast is Daring Creativity, daring Forever, and I believe that very much will be self-initiate. Will we sort of sent out after the universe comes back to us? Because as you just said, we were rebranding the client. That's what we do all the time,

Luke Woodham: Yeah.

Radim: It's easy to be stuck in that sort of endless cycle because [00:20:00] you know so many studios, including yours, like I spoke to Max about like thinking, you know, are you guys launching your own products? Are you doing this or speak to other sort of founders? They're like, well, we know everyone. We know where to get stuff done.

We know how to do X, Y, Z. We can have zillions of our own products, but we never have the time to do it. So

 it's quite nice that when you, when everyone's got sort of refreshed, sort of boost of energy, there's a new brand like it, it feels very magical, right? I mean, that must

have been for like a, you've gotta finally do hit of dopamine when you press go website launched, everything's out there.

Thank God for that. And then seeing the sort of almost immediate response, because I always believe, and this is a whole idea for the podcast and for the book, it's like,do the thing that you would otherwise regret never starting. And I think, you know, self initiating this and actually pushing and knowing that you need it, and it was great to hear from it.

Not, and previous brand was divisive and you didn't always like it.

 On the outside, it looks like, Hey, that seems to be still out there. Maybe it's all fine by like[00:21:00] no one really knows what happens behind the closed doors.

Luke Woodham: Yeah. I think that's the thing with branding. I think, you said earlier that there's so many opinions kill great ideas, but I think the mistake that some people make is that, when you're creating a brand, it's not about personal taste or sometimes it's not even really about aesthetics. It's about the idea and the story you want to tell and what's the correct story that you want the brand to tell for your business.

Luke Woodham: and I think, yeah, following too many personal opinions. When you're doing a project like this can lead to weaker work like, and that, that's really hard to do.

Radim: I can imagine, what you guys did with the new website, I've noticed that you just added what normally marketing agencies would do. Just have a little stat or like a design agency

or company agency would say Hey, of 92% of days of no 50 million clicks on this and that and the design corner of our industry, we're like, oh, this is clever. And I'm thinking. And this is no. Sort of, it's not disrespect, [00:22:00] obviously, like no shade on this, like obviously what you guys did. Obviously you bring in elements of different industry and different knowledge and different

UX pieces together to say, you know what, this is the outcome of the work.

Because once upon a time, and I'm sure we'll agree on this one, a good rebrand was the one that was liked by a few people was like, okay, we agree this is a nice rebrand, and then whatever happens and in five years something new might happen. Whereas we live in a world where data is measurable, data's present, results are very much measurable. And this is ultimately what we working towards, like actually a rebrand of branding or enabling businesses to succeed is the primary purpose most of the time.

So with the, even just a little nugget of like thinking how do you present this to passerby to say, Hey, we do work that works.

Radim: what was the logic behind?

just adding these proof of success.

Luke Woodham: Yeah. I it did make us laugh that people picked up on that in such a big way. 'cause we're definitely not the first people to do that. [00:23:00] Like you say, likethat's something that we've seen in other industries and everything else. But I think like in terms of like why it's something that we've always like really.

 Believed in like the power of branding to like transform businesses. and honestly, it'sit's the motivation for me personally,using CRE creativity to in create this incredible value in real life and have these brands work in real life. like one of the, one of the things I most enjoyed when Rack Edge was just like four people doing a brand and then website.

Luke Woodham: the stats before and after were really easily trackable. And you could see that, you know, we increased conversion by 400%. Like sometimes with those small brands that we were working on back then, like the numbers were crazy often. and that is really inspiring to me personally. But of course, likethat's why we do it, everyone, it's really hard to attribute the value of brand to business results because it is, it's in the ether a little bit, isn't it?

It's in fe it's,it's all feelings. but we can sort of, we can try our best to track [00:24:00] that. And I think. The, trying to find the right stat that is, attributable to the brand work as strongly as possible is a bit of a challenge sometimes. But we see that, you know, a week after Wise launched, all the numbers are going up and to the right and the conversions have gone up 10% and the only thing that's changed is the brand.

So we all know it's real. and just trying to find the numbers that where we could prove that is, is the game.

Radim: I think what happens in a world of creativity, especially like if someone's too close to creating a brand. I think generally that's also a problem with creativity and humans, is that sometimes we are too close to it and we get too emotional about what we've created often in a vacuum. You know, I think if someone reacts emotionally to a change of feedback and takes it really badly, it's like how do you remove yourself?

Like, how do you understand that you are not doing it for yourself? Like,there's still so much verbal punch up across LinkedIn and Instagram client this and client, they've changed the color, they've changed this. But what we [00:25:00] are here to talk about is really the fact that it needs to work. You know, like the subjective feeling about this. Sometimes you just need to let go. And I think that's been one of the biggest sort of themes of this season, so far, is like letting go and focusing on the actual principles and business, application is something that really matters otherwise. You can really eat yourself alive if you think about it, that you know it needs to be just the way you thought about it.

Luke Woodham: Absolutely, that's like the age old conundrum for creative people really to celebrate, to separate your sense of self-worth from the work. And I think that's something that we will try and encourage. like, it's tricky because you've got like these insanely talented people pushing, working really hard to do the best work they could possibly do, and then asking them to like almost, separate any feelings from it, which is just, it's it's so hard, isn't it?

But I think what we try and talk about with like when we talk about our no egos approach to collaboration is that [00:26:00] it's just about the work. We're just talking about the work. Good ideas can come from anywhere, it can come from anyone. And all we care about is like really trying to do what's right for.

Luke Woodham: the idea, and we try and say that like the concept is the creative director. It's not about personal opinion. It's not about you. It's not, you know, sometimes it's not even really about aesthetics and what you like. It's about pushing to communicate the idea in the strongest way possible. And that's sort of like that.

I think that helps a little bit to, to get some separation where you can, but yeah, you, yeah, it's hard.

Radim: In the 15 years going from four to 40, how was it your jump into your role to, going from a designer to being an ECD and now having a team that, wants to instill, that sort of no ego collaboration and what happens when inevitably we get emotional and we want to push something through.

So how do you deal with that and how does it go?

Luke Woodham: I mean, it's a good thing, right? Got real, really passionate people and it's it's never a big problem or anything like that. [00:27:00] I think, one thing that we've found, that works really well with the sort of bigger client teams that we are working with, often the client teams we're working with come with in-house design teams who are incredibly talented and amazing at what they do as well.

 And so one thing we've found is that keeping the work rougher looser faster at the start of the project and inviting the clients in a little bit more so that they can help sort of feel like they are helping shape and direct and contribute to the work in a me meaningful way works in two ways, sort of, helps the client feel really part of the team, but also it does help our team sort of, Get less attached and less precious to something amazing that they've created, like right at the start of the project. so it's sort of easier to let go, I think. we talk about those concepts being, strong opinions, but loosely held. So we go in with big exaggerated ideas. They're strong opinions.

We'll try and talk clients into [00:28:00] it, but we hold them very loosely, so that we can, we're free to change our minds, as we learn, as we get more information, as we move through the work.

Radim: As you know, I would like to talk about some of the projects in a second, but I still have to stay for one more point on, uh, on the website because I had a look for it just before we started speaking. I had a look for it again, and all of the case studies are so rich and so deep and so full of storytelling and actually explaining what happened and how and why, how much of an importance is there on a case study these days to explain it to people. Going back to very initial sort of your responses yourself. You know, you said some of our clients are self-selecting with the mindset, you know, some of our clients are sort of relating to this. So how much of a work and importance do the case studies online still have in a world that works on more partnerships and collaborations and relationships on a business relationship?

So I wanna know that 'cause they are amazing. That's clearly ton of work gone into it. But, I wanted to know if from your, if you know, even from data, [00:29:00] like how much of these actually are a, are converters or just a, the elements that seal the deal when someone comes to you and just look for what you.

Luke Woodham: Yeah, the, there are marketing, they're important, like they're the case studies are what win the next project. And so yeah, you're only as good as your last project. Right.And sort of, that's how we see it. and sort of telling the story and the best way possible, is really important to us and sort of helps paint a picture for those new clients for what we could potentially could do for them.

 And sort of, I think, yeah, talking about why and how, not just, you know, the pretty pictures at the end is really important. 'cause Yeah. I think the way we work is very strategic, very conceptual, and sort of helping communicate the value of that behind. the work is really important and something that, people really like.

And people don't,people don't care about design. They love ideas and stories, and that's the stuff that gets you excited. Yeah, the design is just the vehicle for that. So, yeah, [00:30:00] they work, they're important to us and how we sort of win new work.

Radim: Yeah, because I've,I've definitely noticed they have grown bigger, bolder, richer since the last website. And I, the last website had a, some of the stuff saying, and it was real focus what Mark told me about verbal, sort of verbal storytelling and

verbal branding. And I think we've got, I think now there's a sort of perfect sort of split between the 50 50 that the visuals, they really do love some with heavy lifting and it's fantastic.

It looks really good.

So 

Radim: I wanna talk to you about some of the projects 

 let's start with, a project number one I can see on the website is for Palmetto and it's for, making and clean energy, irresistible. And what's really interesting when it goes to your tagline, never be the same again. When I see Palmetto, I'm thinking, you know, Vespas, I'm thinking something.

Very much a lifestyle aspect rather than renewable energy company. So let's go into it a little bit, like how did it come about and how did you guys work [00:31:00] on it?

Luke Woodham: Yeah. well, I love that project. I'm really proud of that one. I didn't,I didn't lead it. That was, Call out the team on that one as, uh, Andrew, Matt, Christie, fia, led that one. And I think what's really smart about that is that they have created a lifestyle brand for an energy company. And if you think about it really, I suppose the how you use energy is such a crucial part of your lifestyle.

Why? Like, why not? And I think the insight there is that, sort of renewable energy, conserving energy, doing all those things that are really good for the planet has been about, sort had a bit of a scarcity mindset about it. It's about always about using less. whereas I think the idea behind Palmetto is that this renewable, you can use it and not feel guilty about it, and you can do whatever you want and live your life in, the most abundant, way possible.

Luke Woodham: and this brand is there to facilitate that and make you feel good about it, rather than make you feel. Bad about the environment. you know, like that's quite a punchy idea. Some people might even find that [00:32:00] offensive, but I think the reality is that people are selfish and that will really speak to lots of people who, who wanna do something good, but also feel really good doing it.

Radim: With the work that you guys have been doing, obviously, like if you've seen a real change from heavily print based work, I would say, you know, from the world of branding 15

years ago now, to things that are more sort of UI based, more sort of digitally based. And I think with the example, let's say, of Palmetto, and I'm sorry, I picked a project that you didn't work on,

Luke Woodham: That's 

alright. 

Radim: just realized that, What is the evolution of brand and what's the evolution of working? Because you are working with different touch points, with different surfaces, different sort of applications.

 This wasn't an overnight change, but like how does this make the initial stages in planning different to what it was, let's say 15 years ago?

Luke Woodham: yeah, I think, sort of in rag edge's history, we've always done all of that. We've always sort of done the print things and had a hand in digital. That's a big part of our DNAI suppose. and so we've always had [00:33:00] this like aptitude for the digital side of things and digital products. And I think one thing that we've got really good at over the time is working out how a brand will show up in the product, in a digital product.

Luke Woodham: and working with design teams to really systemize that. So that, I think the sort of trend is with digital products, they sort of get, they sort of all start to look the same, don't they? It's all about reducing the cognitive load and being invisible and seamless, whereas with branding, it's about. The opposite is about disrupting your attention.

 And so we are quite good at finding the balance that works in those digital spaces. But in terms of like the planning and how, and the process and how that changes things, we do build in sort of moments for like quite deep collaboration with product teams, with internal design teams where we just have a little pause on creating new things and start playing with the things that we have and sort of push and pull and apply things to the product in a way that really stress tests [00:34:00] the elements in the brand codes to sort of see what's working, see what's not working, see if there's any gaps, see what needs to tweak.

Because I think with the digital stuff,some of the visual things that can make a big difference are tiny little details, that can make it, make a product feel really slick or really clumsy and crowded. And so, yeah, we just build in. Deep collaboration about three quarters of the way through.

 And I would say that's like a little difference that we've seen over the past, I don't know, five years. Something that we've been building more and more into the process.

Radim: I love what you said. You said balance in digital spaces. when worlds collide, when you think of a traditional designers now working in digital spaces or towards digital spaces, now the word product means something different.

So what it meant 15 years

Luke Woodham: Yeah, it does. Yeah.

Radim: and what you guys achieve with Wise is really remarkable because the product, the interface, every touchpoint feels very ownable. It feels like [00:35:00] nothing else. And you can never get lost with Wise go in what website am I own? Like it feels so much of its own kind. And reading, the case study like that has been rolled out in, 175 countries like. That is a mammoth of a project. 

 Let's talk about balancing digital spaces and how do you get to achieve them.

Luke Woodham: Well, yeah, it is. I mean, first of all, wise did such an incredible job of doing that. Like they've got an amazing team and Cam, Nikki, Josh, Kai, Priya, Rosie, all those people like did work so hard to push that through. and definitely wouldn't have happened without their commitment to doing that. It would've been much easier.

 It would've been much easier to do something easier. but yeah, in terms of, how do we make it work across all those countries, I think Wise has the benefit of A global team, like they've got sort of a team, a 200 person design team, all around the world. And so at different points, those people all contributed to the branding project in different ways, big or small.

[00:36:00] And so it meant that, they were all like aware of the path it was taking, the direction it was heading and were able to influence it. and that was really important to the integrity of it. What we're trying to do, we're trying to create a brand like a,a truly global brand. And having those input, the, those diverse inputs was crucial to that.

 sort of manifesting in the, uh, the final thing.

Radim: When I think about when the brand, what rebrand came out, it went from transfer wise to Wise, and it did, it almost felt like a rollout on the outside for quite minimal because the thing. I think it would be fair to say that there's always a rush to get a case study ready when the rebrands out there, it's very fresh.

It hasn't matured, and it is just got like, it's just, it's still quite a bit, sort of sometimes rough around the edges, but the initial spike of interest and the excitement is there. So with this coming out, did you feel that you are actually hitting something which is a studio defining project.

Luke Woodham: no, we had no [00:37:00] idea what the reception was gonna be like. We'd, there'd been some testing, but we were testing for distinctiveness. we weren't necessarily testing for, do you like this? and we had sort of. Put like wise and regulators, we'd put ourselves out there with what we had gone for is like incredibly bold and distinctive.

 I think people in the studio here who weren't working on the project was telling me, this is gonna be big, this is amazing. And I was like, oh God, I dunno. and yeah, so we had said no idea. And like,the client cam, the client had three scenarios for his career. If it went well or if it went wrong or somewhere in between.

He is we sort of just didn't really know. yeah. But luckily it went well.

Radim: That's incredible because yeah, I mean, sometimes you can be too close to it and even know, you know, if it's where it is. But it's been, I mean, you know, be all known. It is been a great success. It's been imitated endlessly.

Luke Woodham: I know. Yeah. It's so funny.

Radim: It seems like the world has adapt it just to one sort of color theme and it's just like,let's do [00:38:00] this. And

 sometimes you feel like, really why? I mean, have we just have, we sort of democratized the design and branding and the design system so much that it feels like it just becomes a new status quo effort.

That's where we all should start, because as you said, it was tested for iveness.

That worked, but then it just can gets hijacked by others going, well, if that was good idea, maybe we should have the same.

Luke Woodham: I mean, I think that's the thing, isn't it? People forget what branding is for and they confuse or they conflate like aesthetics with ideas and I think, hi, Gin Lane that aren't going anymore. But they're famous for doing things like hymns, which is like the fastest ever sort of startup to unicorn, Brand and they came out with this very premium, very slick, very beautiful, what we would call now a bland, but that's not what was clever about it. What was clever is they took this really sort of, sort of divisive subject matter and made it really accessible. And that's the clever bit, not what it looked like.

And then you had this whole trend of people copying that, the aesthetic without the clever [00:39:00] bit and that's not how it works. so yeah, it's quite funny to see people copying the aesthetic of wise when you need to start with the idea.

Radim: Yeah, I think, I think it's quite seducing, or what should I say, it's quite seductive for a designer or creative team with a, not to the depth of the knowledge,

 just to actually borrow that sort of veneer and say, okay, wellthis makes us look good.

Whereas, as you said, for example, with hymns, it's more about how do you define something in a category?

How do you do that? Because that, that requires a different way. sometimes you see a designer's trying to make things minimal and they just like that thing.

But again, like everyone's learning, everyone's growing, 

Luke Woodham: Yeah. 

Radim: sort of discovering, you know.

Luke Woodham: Yeah. We've all done it and it's very tempting. and it's, it is, it's hard to push beyond that. And of course, like for some things it'll be the perfectly,perfectly good thing to do. Just make something beautiful, make something simple, and, and it'll work. but yeah, with, with branding, it's the game is to be unique and stand out, 

so you get noticed. 

Radim: [00:40:00] Speaking of which next project I would like to talk about, which is the

one I know we worked on and we talked about in person about it when I saw you last, is the software. Because not only you talk about a whole new category of branding, which you couldn't imagine number of the team of four 15 years ago.

Cryptocurrency was nowhere near to where it is today. and as you know from my conversation and I,I'll bring in here on a record, I was like, I was fascinated with just. What you had to do in a way and how it was rolled out, like the whole intricacy of the application and the whole, let's say, all different ecosystem and sort of subset of branding that you wouldn't really expect years ago.

it's a project as, yeah, it's gonna blew my mind. Especially the more I spoke about with you about it got to see more behind the scenes of what this all entails. So since we got a chance to revisit that conversation, I think we should because I would say crypto will never be the same again

Luke Woodham: Yeah. Yeah. Maybe not. I think, yeah, I mean, that's an incredible [00:41:00] project, to have worked on because the clients were amazing. Like they knew what they wanted, they knew their minds, and they're incredibly decisive as well. so they're really inspiring people to work with. and they came to us sort of knowing they need to do something different.

I think the funny thing with crypto is that it's probably an easier space to do something different, because if you look at it as a whole, there's you know, lots of purple gradients and,and beautiful, simple sansa of things and yeah, it all,it all very much looks the same. So the sort of clear space, we're doing something different within the category.

there's opportunities there. and, with Solair, sort of, they knew they wanted to put out a particular, personality. They wanted to come,and really challenge what crypto is known for, which is, you know, often a bit of a lack of integrity and like things like rug pools and,and ripping people off and scammers and things like that.

there's a lot of that in that world, and Solair really stand against that. and they build a pro, build a product that is incredibly safe, incredibly [00:42:00] secure, and sort of has their users' best interests in minds at,at all time. Often at the expense of potentially, sort of bigger commercial results for software if they wanted to pursue the slightly shadier side of things, which they absolutely do not.

And they, they had some really inspiring stories for some of their users where crypto is like really important to their life because they might live in countries where. Their governments like, aren't as trustworthy and could sort of reach into their bank accounts at any moment. and crypto is like one way to keep their assets secure.

So there's like real important use cases out there amongst their, amongst their users, that were really inspiring to us for the project.

Radim: what a great story to actually hear, like,especially from someone who doesn't know too much about crypto, apart from, you know, the horror stories

and NFTs, um, yeah. How it can work towards, someone's security. That's amazing.

Radim: the tagline that you've got in here, which it says in every wallet, a kingdom on every head, a crown, is it something that you guys created 

Luke Woodham: Yeah. [00:43:00] Yeah. So I think, in terms of the concept, we landed on the positioning. we sort of defined the idea behind the Soul FLA brand as, uh, the stronghold of the free, so this like vision of perhaps what. banks used to stand for this incredibly high moral purpose, and sort of, so Flare has the safest, wallet on salon, and so we felt like they could credibly own that territory.

Luke Woodham: and the huge benefit with, so flare is that it's self custody, meaning you are, you own your own stuff and sort of if you have your money in a bank, they can sort of invest it without you even knowing about it. They use your money in different ways, whereas like with crypto and particularly with so flare, what's yours is yours.

And so sort of what that line really means is that you are the king of your own kingdom or queen or whatever, and you're in charge of your own stuff. So, in every wallet, your whole kingdom and on every head your own crown.

Radim: [00:44:00] I mean, it perfectly works because when I see the rest of the, the design system,That plays into visually into that storytelling, into that vision of what you can own and what, how you can feel, because in a way of creating these visuals, especially in such a, you know, purple grad and San Face, as you just said, creating something that has got so much of a rich storytelling, how much of that do you need to push to the client or convince the client, or was the client just going, yeah, we don't wanna be purple, can we just be something.

Luke Woodham: so those guys were pushing us to do something different. They, we knew they wanted to be brave, and. They wanted to really stand out and they knew that, they were challenging the category as a whole. and so they wanted to put that message out there. And so that definitely came very much from them and their direction.

 And we are there to facilitate and have, and push them as well. So I would say it's very much like a back and [00:45:00] forth, relationship in that regard. of course. Well, what we find is that at certain points in the project where the clients have to make a decision, they have to really commit to this reality that we are building for them, it gets real.

Basically it's at one at some point, and then you sort of realize that, oh, we're gonna have to go for this now or not. And that's the point where, We might have to talk 'em into it, or we might have to sort of remind them why they started this project in the first place. Or we might just have to, do some testing, which is what we did with Sola.

And so like we got to this point and the guys, video Vido, um, and Philip were like, oh my God, are we gonna do this? And, so had a little wobble, but we did a little bit of, testing with their users with some, some anonymized testing and different things. We tested it against whole bunch of different stuff and we tested it against the competitors for, we did test it for distinctiveness, but we also had to just test it, are you inspired by this?

Would you buy this? Do you [00:46:00] like this? Which is quite tricky to do with testing because it's just a bit of a lottery sometimes. But like the results came back really strongly in favor of this new brand. and it just gave them the confidence to press forward. Which was a really great thing to do.

And with these, with our clients, like often the founders, they have to be so brave to do this. And I have so much respect and admiration for our clients that do make these big, bold bets on the brand, working with us because it'sit's their baby, it's their business. Often they're working with Ragged Edge because it's already a successful business.

It's already going fine. and they want to shake things up even more, often for the benefit, but it can get scary. And the people, I've just got so much respect for the people that continue to push on and do that. Like it's amazing to see. and yeah, they're an inspiring team, so, uh, love them.

Radim: It was really interesting what you just said, and I liked the words big bold beds, and I'll come down, come back to them in one second. But the way you, Steve, as we talked about it a short while ago, [00:47:00] we talked about adding. Just the validators or the social or the, the,the work improves to your website.

Like,okay, you know, this has actually achieved some data. This is actually why this has been this. to have this testing, obviously at the stages where the founders might be a little bit, you know, having a wobble and thinking, oh, we have something new. And you know, it is again, the confident in the unknown.

It's just like,this is the new version where, even yourself couldn't really see how wise could be, 

good because you are in it, you obviously use product focus or your design focus with you in it, and you can't see outside. And our brains at that stage haven't really had time to understand and actually, you know. Grow the understanding of the work. And you know when something feels really different, I always feel that you're onto something because

 if it feels too obvious sometimes you're like, oh, this is safe. You know, we can borrow the veneer and this is safe. But when you're doing something different within the space, would you agree that it's sometimes a signal [00:48:00] that, you're doing something which is uneasy or feels weird, it is a potentially signal that you're on something.

Luke Woodham: Absolutely. And I think, different is new and like new is unfamiliar. Unfamiliar is uncomfortable, and that's a really good thing. so that, that feeling uncomfortable when you're faced with something different, that's a really good sign. And I think, the challenge there is to sort of remember the purpose, remember the job that this brand needs to do for the business.

And is this piece of work that we're looking at, is that gonna help move the needle and,and get us to where we need to get to?

Radim: When you think about uncomfortable, no one would just be like resilience. Like

no one, like resilience is important, but no one wants to feel resilient. Like of

course uncomfortable sound like a great idea, but who wants to feel uncomfortable?

Like, 

Luke Woodham: yeah, I think, I think getting comfortable, feeling uncomfortable is crucial and then you can start to enjoy it and then you can start to have fun with it. but remembering that,that is the whole point 

Radim: [00:49:00] yeah, because obviously with my previous question was like there was a validation. Obviously when you build business and you get the user, the testers, the focus group, whoever, like research validated, you're onto something that's obviously half a battle is almost one because you're gonna bring something to the market that potentially is gonna like to work.

Radim: With my real curiosity was when I was going through the case study, there's this whole element of the social media takeovers, branded

celebrations, all of that stuff. And you're thinking, oh, so you can create all your polished case study. Obviously the brand architecture is fixed and everything's looking great, fresh and new.

And then it meets the user, and it goes, wow, we're gonna take and we are gonna make our own. And you've got no controller of this. So whilst you're at the branding stage, obviously trying to control this, you know, working with founders, making sure that, when they make their big, bold beds, you know that part is right, and then it goes into the public and you're like, well, we just have to accept what they do with it.

Luke Woodham: Because [00:50:00] ultimately is what it means to them, is the true understanding of doing something. Right.Yeah, that was amazing response to see, and we absolutely loved it. I think, yeah, I, before this project, I didn't really know anything about crypto either. but what I've found is that the,the community, particularly on X as it's called now, So vibrant and so engaged and seeing the responses to the brand was so interesting because what we've done for Soul Flare is,is quite conceptual.

There's a rich story there, and they just picked up that story and ran with it and put their own spin on it and really embraced all of the ideas that sort of went into building that brand. And it's just incredible to see what they do. There's like nearly a new one, nearly a new meme created by one of their users, of one of their fans, like every day.

Luke Woodham: and it's just incredible to see that engagement and see people pick up on the idea like that.

Radim: Think there's no need for any future validation of the,of the system because

if you get people doing their own thing, of their own accord and so happily and with love and [00:51:00] support, I think that gets you validated that what you've done makes perfect sense. Look, It's great to have you here today to tell me more about what you do. we can easily, uh, unpick a few, more of your projects, but I know I need to let you go. thank you for sharing with me what you guys do and how you do it and where do you, youwhere we've seen your progression from 15 years ago to today and being excited maybe by the next 15 years.

So

I don't normally ask about how do you see future or where be heading, but I think yeah, that potentially feels quite adequate. in this instance, because you've seen the change for the last 15 years,

 how do you feel about the next 15 months, 

Luke Woodham: Oh, blind me. Yeah.

Radim: Yeah.

Luke Woodham: Yeah. Well it's, it is a big moment, isn't it, with the sort of all of the AI things coming through and how are we gonna make use of that? I think, getting good at utilizing those tools is gonna be really important and crucial to what we do. but remembering the core purpose of branding is to do something different, and finding ways to sort of [00:52:00] use AI to facilitate the creative process.

but like the, I dunno if it's just like the sort of clients we are working with these days, but I think seeing the lines blur between agency and,and in-house teams so that we are working a bit more as like one team is probably the trend I've seen gathering momentum over the last five years.

And I would see that continuing. and that's just a great way to work because, the clients are experts on their business. They're the ones that are gonna get this work through, get this work live, get this in the hands of the users. And so for us, like that's a big focus, like bringing those teams.

 Sort of into the project team more closely is probably the,the trend we'll be building on and maybe will be the biggest difference of the last 15 years. Like working more closely with the clients, I think

Radim: Thank you so much. Love it. Absolutely love it. And I'm always excited to see what comes up next from Rade, because you've achieved something which is some studios would almost dream about, 

what you've set out to achieve is happening, is working.

And yeah, it's [00:53:00] nice to have a conversation about it. And I've just said, I'm just looking forward to the next 15 months because the next 15 years, who knows what will change and what will

Luke Woodham: Who knows. 

Radim: But yeah,

Luke Woodham: Well, thank you so much for having me. It's a real privilege to be invited on and yeah, I love your podcast. yeah, been listening to it for a long time and yeah, amazing to be part of it now. So thank you so much for having me.

Radim: it is been a real pleasure having you. Thank you.

Luke Woodham: Cheers, Adam. 

Radim: Thank you for listening to this episode of Daring Creativity Podcast I'd love to know your thoughts questions and suggestions So please get in touch via the email in the show notes or social channels This episode was produced and presented by me Rad Malid The audio production was done by Neil Mackay from 7 million Bucks Podcast Thank you and I hope to see you on the next episode [00:54:00]