Nada Hesham is the founder and Chief Creative Officer of 40Mustaqel, an independent design studio born and based in Cairo, Egypt. Recorded live at All Flows Festival, this conversation moves between identity, rebellion, methodology, and the deep craft of building a studio that refuses to be a factory. ~

Nada grew up in Cairo — an intense, visually chaotic city she describes as a continuous love-hate relationship — in a family of doctors and engineers. She found her way into graphic design not through natural talent, but through the logic of typography: a discipline where obsession and method matter more than innate spark. That belief — that creativity is earned through rigour rather than gifted from above — has shaped everything from how she builds her team to how she approaches a client brief.

Over five years, 40Mustaqel became the go-to studio for Arabic script-led design across the region. But Nada is already restless with that success, pushing her studio into new territory: sculptures, exhibitions, publishing, and a deeper interrogation of what it means to decolonise design beyond the script's surface.

Key takeaways:

• Creativity built on method and obsession outlasts creativity built on talent
• Cairo's visual chaos is not a limitation — it is a creative inheritance worth claiming
• The research phase is where regional and cultural influence truly lives in a project
• Hiring small and intentionally protects the intimacy and quality that makes boutique studios thrive
• Leadership is orchestration — knowing who in your team holds which genius is the real skill
• Decolonising design is a process question, not just a visual one
• Being known for something is the first milestone; outgrowing it is the second
• The Trojan horse strategy — delivering what a client expects while quietly changing what they believe — is how cultural shifts happen

Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic

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Radim: I wasn't good at drawing classes and things that are liberal artsy leaning, and I found that safety net in typography because there was a logic to it that I can follow. There was method to it. And if you work hard enough, you get it. If you study enough, you get it. It doesn't really require this spark or inspiration or talent that you possess and nobody else does. And to this day, I still believe I am not the most talented or traditionally creative person, but I get very obsessed about things, and I get very logical, and I have method to how I do things, and I'm very serious about my research and how I approach projects. And I think there is similarity in that and in typography because again, there, you're not waiting for I fell asleep, and I dreamt about this, and the inspiration came from that lucid dream of sorts. Welcome to the Daring Creativity Podcast, a show about daring to forever explore creativity that isn't about chasing shiny perfection. It's about showing up with all your doubts and imperfections and making them count. It's about becoming more of who you already are. My name is Radim Malinic I'm a designer, author, and eternally curious human being.

 I am talking to a broad range of guests who share their stories of small actions that sparked lifetime discoveries, taking one step towards the thing that made them feel most alive. 

 Let me begin this episode with a question. Are you ready to discover what happens when you dare to create? 

We live in cities that shape us, be it loudly or quietly, but always make a mark on us. My guest today lives and works in Cairo, Egypt, a city that overwhelms, argues, but dares you to love it regardless, providing a perfect mix of tension for her best work. Nada Hashem is the founder and chief creative officer of Forty Mustakil, an independent studio based in Cairo, building some of the most culturally rooted, visually fearless work coming out of the Arab world today.

Nada's story is one of method over myth, rebellion over expectations, and a studio that grows by going deeper, not wider. 

 This episode was recorded at All Flows, a festival just outside London, gathering an extraordinary creative minds. If this conversation moves you and you get a taste for what they do, you can get a ticket for next year's edition right now. It's my pleasure to share with you my episode with Nada Hashem. 

Radim: , so welcome to Daring Creativity Podcast, live at All flows Festival. Welcome. 

Nada Hashem: Hi.

Radim: it was very good to see your talk yesterday, ... thank you ...which I think the guys who do the festival here, I think they are incredible in getting the curation of the festival to be multicolor, multinational, multiversional there. And your presentation yesterday was incredible.

Nada Hashem: Thank you so much. It means a lot. you. for those who may have not seen your talk, because this is for the listeners elsewhere, who are you? What do you do? How would you introduce yourself? so my name is Nada Hesham. I'm from Cairo, Egypt, and I'm the founder and chief creative officer of, independent design studio called Forti Mustaqbal, and it's based and founded in Cairo as well. 

Radim : Fantastic. your presentation showed quite a bit about Cairo's sort mixed visual essence, right?again, how would you describe Cairo? 'Cause in your, one of your photos, you had mixture of everything. Like, what does it feel like to live in Cairo, and what does it feel like to get these influences that, for example, for people here might not even think that's what's happening?

Nada Hashem: I think living in Cairo is just a continuous love-hate relationship. city's super intense, and there's something happening in every corner, basically. That's the way I would describe Cairo. And like any big city, and maybe specifically Cairo, you get used to the chaos, and you develop a love for it, but also while complaining.

So it's an intense city. It's quite visually fertile. So there's a lot happening if you pay attention, or if you don't, because it really does scream at you with all the visuals and all

buildings, the clutter. it's quite intense. And

I think any city in this side of the world, you grow up and you have- Almost like this critical eye towards it where you're like, "This is too messy.

This is maybe dirty." And then you grow into it, and you grow up, and you change perspective, and actually 

It started happening actually when I started traveling. So I got this out of my system where I'm like I've seen the cleaner, more grid-based cities-

 and then I'm falling in love again with Cairo and the intensity that it develops, 

like in you as a person, on a personal level and in your work. very

Radim: because

I wanted to know obviously is the detail about love/hate, but you're giving me both already. Like when you talk about travel, what is the travel, as you said, a bit more clean and grid-based cities, what does it make you feel? Like what do you take away from Cairo to the different places and do you compare? Do you feel like those are some sort of, references to one another?

Nada Hashem: I think again it's a natural curve whenever I was placed in out of context, I would tame myself on a personal level, not even my work. 

you probably develop your personality and your work becomes a reflection of that, So I would either try to dress to fit in or speak maybe quieter because in the U-Bahn it's ahush-hush, situation.

And, you start clipping parts of who you are- ... and the intensity and the hand movement and all of that. And as a reflection of that, your work is also a byproduct of that tamed as well.

And then I think there was a flip moment that happened gradually. I don't recall a moment where I'm like, "I'm going to embrace myself and my identity right now." but it happened gradually where I was like, " this is really nice." Like, these cities and these cultures are a thing, has a lot of things that I can learn from, but I feel like it's my duty to also look internally and look at the city I grew in and exercise that creative juice or endeavors or whatever you want to call them in a way that resonates with me.

It's interesting you say it's your duty. I like the word, that you feel like you're obliged to need to do it. I've got a habit on my show to always ask people their origin story, like how did they get into creativity. how did you become aware of the creativity? Do you have that feeling, do you remember memory of the first time when you realized that you can be creative, and how did you exercise it? I think I have the most boring - arc of becoming a creative. I come from a family that is all doctors and engineers, and i,just wanted to go against that. Looking back, I don't think I was entirely interested in the creative scene, more that it is what is the opposite of my family? Because I was quite a rebellious kid or whatever that means. and then I was like, "Interior design sounds like a good idea. I like furniture design." And I went full on thinking I will be a furniture designer or an interior designer, and then when I,got to uni, I discovered graphic design. And I remember typography class, specifically with a professor called Amir, who introduced me to the typeface design, I remember that I wasn't a good painter or, like, I didn't draw well. So I found a safety net in typography because I didn't need to be, skilled at drawing. and it was beautiful, and I majored in graphic design, and I think- right now, to me, it's just that it was an entry to creative disciplines, and The more I, grow as a practitioner, the more I'm loose about these definitions, and I'm like, 

I can explore different disciplines much more loosely now. Now. I like that. But on your rebellious when you said interior design or n- furniture could be potentially the path, Obviously, on the path of rebellion, did you get visually stimulated? Did you get visually guided to something like this? Or was it more like, "Okay, instead of being a doctor, I'm gonna choose that"? 

how did you make that decision? initially wanted to be a drummer. That was the intention of me being a rebellious kid. But no, I think actually my mom had, a good sense in, like, furnishing and interior design, and I picked up that. And honestly think it was just an intro to creative disciplines. maybe when I grow up, I want to be an interior designer after all. but it was just an intro into something that is not becoming what my family is in that sense, but it translated into... or like I found myself in it in, a way that is an intense, vocal, outspoken kid, and I think there is connection between you growing up being that kid and the creative industries. And just interior design happened to be there And then it developed into something completely different.

Radim: I'm gonna take you one step back. Yeah. I wanna know about you wanting to be a drummer. what music did you grow up with? what gave you the idea that you can be the next, drummer. Who was your idols, music?

Radim: think I was just an angry teenager. I liked Adam Lambert, I thought he's cool, and I wanted to be a drummer, and I wanted to drive a motorcycle. I do now drive motorcycle- again, I think every creative kid has that side to them. It doesn't need to translate in that, like, punk, way of doing things or like, I'm gonna rebel, I'm gonna ride a motorcycle. But you always know early on that you, like, the black sheep kind of situation, and then you pick up your arsenal. So mine was drumming, And also my family was a conservative Muslim family, and is a Muslim, family to this day, and to them that was so out of norm and so out of culture, and it's not, what a well-behaved Muslim woman would do. So again, maybe in different context, if my entire family rode motorcycle, I wouldn't b- have been so rebellious, and then I would have done something else. You mentioned you were angry. And then you said, well, the typography was a safe space. was the anger based in the fact that there's limitations in the place, the faith, the future,the expectations? Where did the anger come from? Sorry to ask. But I need 

Nada Hashem: I think the anger came from just a feeling of not fitting in within my family. looking back now, we get along like never before. Because you get the anger out in other different channels, and you become an adult, and you do the drumming, and you feel like- oh, that wasn't such a big of a deal. but back then i always knew there is something that's different about the way I perceive the world, the way I would critique things excessively. you'd be in a family gathering and then you have the uncle that would say something problematic, and then I would be the kid who's, like, outspoken about that. was like, "This is homophobic. This is I don't know what." 

Nada Hashem: it's just, again, you were finding an arsenal to express your I'm not like you guys- through these things that now seem trivial and stupid, but, like, back then they were just methods and trials to get your personality

Radim: that makes sense. And what, from what I'm listening sounds like a perfect making of creative director- ... from a young age. so let's fast-forward to the typography class where you find a sort of safe haven. What did it feel like? Because typography is obviously quite technical subject. Like, i, as a former graphic designer, I mean, I used to be in love with typography with everything, but I was always finding about typographers or font designers being very stern because they are quite clinical and the precision matters. And if you say something wrong about, "Oh, no, this is a terminal," they're like, "No, that's not a terminal. That's something else." 

You're like, Okay." I find it quite intimidating, and I've spoken to lots of people like Jamal O'Brien and Eleni Bevarato, who work with typography, and they're like, there is definitely that sort of element of get it right or don't do it at all. What was it like for you when you found that world, as a first step towards what you're doing today? 

Nada Hashem: I think I saw it the other way around because, like I said, I wasn't good at drawing classes and things that are liberal artsy leaning, and I found that safety net in typography because there was a logic to it that I can follow. There was method to it. And if you work hard enough, you get it. If you study enough, you get it. It doesn't really require this spark or inspiration or talent that you possess and nobody else does. And to this day, I still believe I am not the most talented or traditionally creative person, but I get very obsessed about things, and I get very logical, and I have method to how I do things, and I'm very serious about my research and how I approach projects. And I think there is similarity in that and in typography because again, there, you're not waiting for I fell asleep, and I dreamt about this, and the inspiration came from that lucid dream of sorts. So it gave me something to start my creative process without feeling the pressure to be traditionally talented or creative like the guys or the girls 

Radim: in the drawing classes. That's really interesting because obviously what you do now with your studio I think is incredibly creative and, there's a talent through and through. And your studio Fawzi Mustakel has been going for five years. How do we go between the five years ago, which is 2021, to the typography class? what happened in between, before you 

Nada Hashem: started your so I graduated uni. I worked for a couple of advertising agencies and branding agencies. It wasn't really for me. I didn't want to brand for big corporates. I don't... now that I look back, I was again angry at these agencies. 

I now have a bit more empathy because you have to do what you have to do s- to survive at the end of the day, but back then I was like, "I don't want to design for real estate companies, that sort of thing. I want to do something that's about, a bit more impactful." And then I went, ahead and I worked with, Rise up. It's a company for, that does one big event for entrepreneurs. I was the graphic designer and spatial designer then. it was quite nice. I don't have anything negative to say about that, but then I started freelancing and I think I was just talking to that, to an- another person about this.

It was a good idea to just have a full-time job without leaving that safety net of sorts and having a regular paycheck, and then I started freelancing on the side, things that a bit more with the cultural sector, things that are more art-leaning. and then I would still get my paycheck from the company I was with.

When that practice and when that, like, freelance career started kicking off, I could develop a client base that is reliable enough to leave my full-time job, and then it just grew organically from there. There were too many clients, and I had to hire someone to help me. Hussein came into equation in that, point in time. and then it started growing from there and just felt unfair to produce work under my name while there were other people working with me, hence the name and hence the studio, and also because you usually land bigger clients ...if you have 

Radim: and a studio. before we really, zoom in into your studio, I wanna know what's the influence of design and creativity like? how did you start forming your own identity as a creative?

And was it something that you can source from a local or, regional sort of sources, or did you see stuff happening around the world and choosing the bits that seemed the most applicable to you?

Nada Hashem: I think it's a mix of everything. Again, when I travel, whatever kind of inspiration I collect becomes part of how I see the world. It does not really work one-on-one asmuch as it is like you become a more well-rounded person altogether, and I think for a creative director, the more you feed your visual library, the better. And a- again, back to like methodology and having a way of approaching projects, I think the research phase and our references is the part where the region influence really shines. So we're very, very specific about the things we look at while doing our research and while we're building our mood boards and our stories behind our, the brands we work with, and we're intentional about them as much as we can. We look at, again, like manuscripts, big cultural moments in the region. even things that are like very specific to the region, like oral storytelling is something that is very huge on the region. We don't really archive the way the West archives. It doesn't need to. It's not that it needs or doesn't, but like the approach to storytelling is completely different. It's like you have this idea of an'ana, which means from that person to that person, the story has been told. And to follow these kind of ways of telling a story is something that I also perceive as decolonial in its essence because it's not that the final visual is decolonial. Like I cannot look at a final product and be like, " this is like purified from all colonial influence." It would be stupid to say that. But what we try to do is that we look at our process, and we try as much as we can to look into the things we also look at as part of our research and references.

Radim: Yeah. 

 When you approach a new project- ... where do you start looking first, and where do you go from there?

Nada Hashem: it really depends on the client that we're working with, and the... usually we have very extensive briefing sessions. Like I think I've mentioned in the talk yesterday, I take these very, very seriously and like knowing and understanding our client on almost like a personal base. And like we have a joke that i'm the best at reading clients. Like, so you understand the subtext behind what they're trying to deliver. you know how a cat like goes with a thread? So you- Yeah ... try to really get to the end of that thread because sometimes the clients would say things that are a bit more generic. Like, we want something that is modern and clean. What does that really mean- Yeah ... to them as well? Because our versions of the same word are very, very, different. And then I think the way we approach our research is based on these kind of intels and insights that we have from the client. So we take,threads, and we start again researching from them. And because of the nature of the work that we do, we don't only work locally. we work regionally, which means we get exposed to cities that we are not part of, we have never maybe visited. So really reaching out to people, our network, our friends from there, and validating that what we're looking at makes sense because it can very likely be, just a stereotype or a cliché of sorts. It's something that has been discussed extensively, and it's as fresh anymore. So again, I think just, basic research that is committed to the insight that you get from the client will probably open threads, and if you're again obsessive enough about them, reach something interesting.

Radim: so you mentioned your,freelance career has grown from you being just you, and you hired other people and decided to, give it a studio moniker. What did it feel like? 'Cause it was ... I think the situation that when you have too much work and you realize you need people to help you, did you let go easily or

with it? How did

Did you let go, or did you struggle with it?

How did it go at first? 

Nada Hashem: in my head I don't micromanage, but that's in my head, so we need to ask the team about this. again, the team is an incredible force. I didn't even, have the struggle of teaching, the team to be as good as they are. I was very, very lucky and very specific about the people I hire. So it wasn't of letting go as it is finding the right pace and rhythm with every person and every team member because they're quite different. some team members are really happy if we're, like, switching laptops and dropping files and this back and forth. Some other, team members are much more happy if they'rea bit of a solo dancer. And then they come back, and then we have a discussion, and then They need their space. So letting go in a sense that I would let go of my methods of working and really introduce myself to how another creative would work, would approach this exercise, and obviously, there's a certain quality that we need to deliver. There is, a timeline we need to commit to, so these are the things I keep track of. But I try as much as I can to have this malleable and flexible bone in me to let go to 

someone else's- .........method.

Radim: How do you find a transition when, obviously, as you say, you need to let go, and you beautifully said that you've got a solo dancer, beautiful words, and then you've got people who are more flexible. So these do require different ways of managing, and obviously every designer got this fear of actually growing and managing people, and I've asked some incredible names on the podcast. " So how did it go when you had to step into a leadership role?" And everyone said, "Badly." Everyone said, "Badly." So, from the point of human, caring, compassionate, empathetic, how do you attend to these different personality, the solo dancer or 

Nada Hashem: the flexible one? I think maybe I am a specific case where going back to not perceiving myself as an, a naturally talented artist or whatever that means, I actually specifically enjoy working with other people and finding the genius in them, not necessarily in myself. So I don't think I'm the best illustrator in the studio nor the best storyteller, but I know the best storyteller, and I know the best illustrator in my team, and I know how to make the best storyteller and the best illustrator work together well. So orchestrating this entire thing into a beautiful symphony, as cliche as it sounds , is the thing that brings me joy more than it is doing things by hand. So i- it's... I, think it's a skill. I think that on its own is a skill, that I claim to be good at. And I don't think... I don't know if this answers your question.

But- 

It fully answers my question because I was thinking of the word of conductor, and you said, "No, it's like putting together an orchestra." So it, makes full sense because I think it's quite rare to find an easy transition to be, employed by ad agency to be a freelance, and then actually go, "I want to put those best people together." ' as you said, finding the best storyteller and best illustrator how to work together, because you get the best out of each one of them. So I think to reach that point fairly early in your career in your studio remarkable because it's hard thing to do. sometimes I think our sort of imperfection and fears and vulnerability make us feel like, okay, I need to make lots of creative decisions well. I need to have my nose in it because I don't want this project to go badly because it will be, it's my name, it's my studio. it's, let's say, my client or whatever. So I think it's that sort of hung around of maybe I need to havea bit more of input. But as you realize, the most input you're gonna have is what you do, but actually let people and go and do their stuff. how did you find the first few years of your studio? Obviously, with the takeover, obviously you had to th- you, you decided to take on more people. Did you feel like you had to scale up the input of what, like the number of work, or did you have to then turn into sales or, networking, client management? Yeah. What was that for you like? I mean, there are two sides to that question. The first one, scaling is, has never been part of my plan, and it really ties back to my last answer. invest a lot in each and every individual, and like when a new hire to me is a new friend and And i'm not saying that in a sentimental, sensational way. I'm saying it in a way that, again, the, I use the word loosely, but the genius of the studio is that the persons behind it are well loved and well taken care of as creatives and whatever they're capable of is really maximized. So I am reluctant to just hire, hire, hire, and then not know the people I work with, and then it becomes a, like a factory-like,st- you streamline the process. And it, works for other agencies because maybe the scale of the projects they got, they get or the kind of work they put out there. But like to m- Maya moumen who's,who's the founder of a studio I very much admire, a Beirut-based studio, studio safar. Calls her work art-leaning design, which I think is a beautiful way to think about it. And if you are going to be this art-leaning designer, that means that things take a lot of time, take a lot of emotional toll on you, and a lot of human-to-human connection. So I am reluctant to scale for a reason, and I think the studio works really nicely on that like boutique/niche scale, and I don't think right now it makes sense to scale. The other side to that equation is that I'm also the business owner, and I do the business side of things. And for the most part, we've been very lucky with clients, kind of word of mouth, and it's a snowball once you get like, a good client base. it starts rolling from there. But it really is stressful, and i'm learning the hard way that I need to delegate these parts to someone else. Like my operations manager now is, the most important person in the studio ...because without her I become the operations manager, and then the studio doesn't really have creative leadership, and everything falls. So I need to learn to let go of for instance. but like I don't regret it because for the foundation years I feel like was good to have, an insider look into how the business is made and what makes the studio sustainable. Even if I to remove myself from that position, I think it was necessary to be in that position for the first years.

It's interesting that you mentioned it was, it's stressful. Like sometimes it can seem so peaceful and so, poetic to, "I've got a studio. We've got work. We've got clients. We employ people who are friends." But it's still a business, it's still a melee of things. So how do you hire a friend? how do you hire for a friend?it was a case-by-case kind of situation. Hussein and Mina were actual friends. the younger generation of designers were recommended by friends of mine. and it, the, what I mean by hiring a friend does not me- does not necessarily translate as to hire a friend of mine at the moment. But, I have to have the emotional and mental capacity for that person to be my friend eventually, and I have to be interested in them to be my friend. And have, they have to be interested in me to be my friend, because the intimacy we work with is very much like personal interests, their mental health and how it really affects the work. So that's what I meant by a friend. For Hussein and Mina, it was a bit different. They were actual friends, and the friendship took also some turns because of work. but I always say it's like,when you work with a friend this closely, it's like a marriage, so you have to accept them for who they are, and there will be ups and downs and everything is going to be affected by, like, so the interpersonal is going to be affected by work and the other way around. but we're all, I think, the same level of intense and crazy and it works beautifully.

Radim: You used the word intimacy of creativity. I mean, that's again another beautiful term of, like, how do you see the process of being all together in it, like, actually being, all for one, if that makes sense, that no one gets left behind. everyone's part of a project. So let's take a sort of random case study of, like, how would you approach projects, because obviously you've shown beautiful imagery that, is intricate, it's colorful, it's bold, the typography shines through and through. And how this becomes a thing. 

Nada Hashem: So now we know the research is obviously, is quite solid, is quite thorough. How would you then go in to turn into something like this, into a visual or a brand project? i think in a lot of cases it's just a personal interest of one of the team members that really matches well with the project. So this is what I mean again by intimacy, where, like, I'm also keeping an eye at what really brings the, this, the team members in general joy and what are the kind of obsessions and, like, pockets of interest they're developing at the moment. So for instance, Tasneem is really into mythology at the moment, and she's reading into that. So this is a tab in my head. Amina is into, I don't know, this intersection between cyber slash internet culture and, religions and folklore. They're usually very, like, absurd interests, and i'm keeping tabs of who is looking at what at the moment, and then we're introduced with a brief, and usually, like, the matchmaking of who is going to work on that project is heavily influenced by knowing their personal interests and where their eyes are at the moment. And from then comes, from then the research comes also naturally. This is how they get excited about the projects they're also on. And I also, like, do my job as a creative director of, like, poking things a bit here and there. I'm like, " haven't you been looking into this recently? I think it might be a good idea to maybe expand on that research," and so on and so forth. And sometimes we would go the extra mile to take on a project because I know that Nadine is into sculptures lately, and I feel like maybe if we do something that's a bit more sculptural for that project, it will be interesting. So it's a conversation. It's a back and forth. It's not just a channel of projects that we get, and then we figure it out from there. like accepting a client is also something that I think about based on where the team is at the moment.

Radim: I like what you said about a sculpture and is it good for the client because I wanted to know how much clients are aware of what your team might be into or what the skill set or the ambition might be because sometimes obviously as we all know, clients don't always know what they want and it's our role to say, "Hey, actually, you know what? We can do this." And we're like, "Can we? Yes, we can, and we can do it really good." So how would you get something like this with your interests of your team, let's say the sculptures? How would you then make it happen with the client, and how would you convince them? Because that is a good role of a a happen.

Nada Hashem: I think the clients come to us now with a bit more trust now that we have been working with them or we've been regionally recognized for the past five years. So there is a certain level of trust that really allows me to open up a bit and introduce things that weren't really part of the brief, or it's not exactly what the client would expect. But also we are known to be the typographic/Arabic script go-to studio, and now it annoys me a bit because I'm like- ...that that, means it's a joke and it landed, and what's next? So you get the first uncomfortable phase of introducing yourself and gaining that trust. I feel like we're in the second milestone of being uncomfortable of, I know you approach me when you're expecting exactly this, but I'm in, as an artist I'm in the second era and i'm trying to explore different things. Please trust me that this is the next big thing.

Radim: Yeah.

Nada Hashem: And it takes a lot of convincing and reduction, but the advantage we have right now is that we have five years in our pocket to refer to. we knew how to do this. You have to trust us that this new phase or the way we develop things now are a bit different, but we know what we're doing.

Radim: So what does the next look like? So obviously, 'cause as you said, a niche in worked until it didn't work. like being known for something. A thing is that when you said the art for designer, you wanna go and grow rather than go and rinse and repeat like, okay, we can do this over and over again and, be happy, smile, and get paid. But the development and growth in our careers doesn't, m- manifest that way. what is the next thing for the next five years or next five months that, want to push to go into new places?

Nada Hashem: I think like I mentioned, at the very first, like at the start of the studio, we were thinking about decolonizing design. That's the kind of the attempt or the identity of the studio and because the most obvious answer is the script. If there's arabic in a piece of design, that means it's arabic, right? It's, it comes from the region, and I think- n-not that I look back at it and I hate it, but I look back at it and I think it was a bit surface level. And right now, I think i'm much more invested in discovering beyond the script w- how can be a piece of design be decolonial or not have heavily colonial influences, and that can be in the process and the research, and it can be in the way we illustrate, and w- the way we pick our colors. So i'm trying to open up the space to, for that claim to come back again, but be re-rediscovered and reanswered through something that is not necessarily the script. So it's a question mark. I don't have an answer for it, that's why it's exciting.

Radim: having seen your work, there is definitely obviously the script based work, the elements of other typography and the imagery that obviously comes from the region, and it feels like they are almost working in this beautifully symbiotic space where they complement one another. How- difficult is it to influence the region that's been traditionally, rooted in particular imagery or particular style? I think what you create, I think, wildly sort of progressive in my opinion. I mean, 

 I'm, speaking of very little experience. But what i've seen is just like, oh, I don't have to understand what it says, but it makes me feel something. It's bold, it's colorful, it's moving. There's an artful element to design. is it difficult to get work accepted or to,be used or to, almost influence the future of the region and, the design?

Nada Hashem: at the start it was much more difficult because like I mentioned in the talk as well, having a latin-based brand was associated with high status basically. So if you're a real estate company and you want to promote yourself for, obviously someone who would be able to pay for property for this real estate company for ins-instance, you'd shy away from Arabic because this would signal something that you don't want to be associated with. And I think that was part was difficult to crack, and hence why the kind of work that we do is important because basically the premise and the promise was, I can work with a script and I can still make it cool. I can work with a script and I can still make it fancy if you want. So it was when you have like a child and like you want to give them the medicine and then there's something- ... it's inside the sweet juice. And I'm like, "I will give you the polished look, but let me have the script to be part of your branding." And then they'll, they'd see the end product and they're like, " this would still attract someone who's well off," for instance. So like we injected this idea and slowly it, people were almost trusting the process of you can be whatever you want and still include the script. So you can be this, , I don't know, an underground music party, which was previously associated with something that is cool, and the script is probably associated with something that's a bit more traditional. But we rework the script and we would reintroduce it to this kind of cool music gig in a funky, fresh way, and they're like, " you know what? It works." So it was like s- when the client starts seeing our ability to really use how flexible the script is to deliver whatever image they want to keep up with- ...is when the trust started happening. And then it's no question now. If anything, it became the cool thing to have Arabic script in your design now. And again, the hip cool kid if you have it in your poster for the next gig. So it, I think it worked out and panned out nice. nicely. Mh,

Radim: sounds like it. I have actually now linked it back to you being the wannabe drummer and the one that didn't wanna conform, because that sounds like what you're doing now. Obviously you've got the status quo of the region, and it's like you try to push it. You try to actually change what's possible. Because I like your idea of a Trojan horse. it's just like, "This is what you wanted, but hey, we've got also this," So I think there's, again, a beautiful way of, like, how you work and how you create stuff that cares and actually wants something to move and progress. So immediate future,where do you see your studio, in the next few months, a year, two years? 

Nada Hashem: i think I want the studio to do things that are less traditionally graphic design and really push itself into different media and disciplines, so we're looking forward for a couple of projects. Some of them are actually sculptures, and artworks and exhibitions. Some of them are publishing endeavors. So I think it's a good exercise to find other muscles as creatives and flex them. So that's what i'm specifically looking forward to the studio.

Radim: Nada, it was very nice to talk to you today. Yeah. It was very great to see your presentation, and I'm a fan of what you guys do. It's incredible, and I wish you all the success for the future, and hope it stays as passionate, as rebellious, and visually engaging as it could be. So thank you very Thank you So much for being

here. 

Nada Hashem: was amazing. Thank you. 

Radim: Thank you. Thank you.