Robert Hodgin is an artist and head of research and development at Rare Volume, a design and tech company specialising in large-scale installations that blend technology with artistry. 

His journey began at a science and math boarding school in North Carolina, where he quickly realized his heart belonged to art rather than physics. After attending RISD, Robert discovered a unique space where his dual interests could coexist by visualizing data in artistic ways. His work combines cutting-edge technology with human-scale aesthetics, creating immersive experiences for venues. 

Robert shares candid insights about the challenges of client work, the importance of staying true to creative vision, and why following the flock of birds sometimes requires more courage than jumping out of a plane. He reminds us that even at the highest levels of creative practice, the struggle for artistic integrity remains universal

Key takeaways

• Find your intersection: Robert thrives at the crossroads of art and science, proving that seemingly opposite interests can create unique opportunities for innovation and creative expression
• Question traditional paths: Despite parental expectations and aptitude in science and math, Robert chose art, demonstrating that conventional career paths aren't always the right answer
• Human-scale technology: When working with cutting-edge tech, Robert prioritizes creating experiences that feel human and accessible rather than overwhelming or intimidating
• Data can be beautiful: There's tremendous opportunity to present data in art-forward ways rather than just functional graphs, opening new creative territories for visual storytelling
• Creative integrity is challenging: Even successful artists working on prestigious projects face clients who say they want artistic freedom but ultimately impose their own vision
• Vulnerability creates connection: Speaking authentically about failures, fears, and challenges resonates more deeply with audiences than polished perfection ever could
• Not every project is a win: Robert acknowledges that some client projects get "butchered" and you have to accept that sometimes you take the money and move on
• Embrace failure as learning: Dropping out of astrophysics twice became part of Robert's story rather than a source of shame, showing how setbacks shape our eventual path
• Scale matters: Robert's most satisfying projects like the Samsung three-story video wall and Barcelona installation demonstrate how working at impressive scales can amplify creative impact
• Stay curious about tools: Robert's approach to technology is playful exploration, testing what feels human about new tools rather than chasing trends for their own sake

Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic

daringcreativity.com |  desk@daringcreativity.com

Books by Radim Malinic Paperback and Kindle > https://amzn.to/4biTwFc
Free audiobook (with Audible trial) > https://geni.us/free-audiobook
Book bundles  https://novemberuniverse.co.uk

Lux Coffee Co. https://luxcoffee.co.uk/  (Use: PODCAST for 15% off)
November Universe https://novemberuniverse.co.uk (Use: PODCAST for 10% off)

Rob: [00:00:00] So I remember sending Luca, a few of these midjourney outputs 'cause he had been paying attention to what I'd been working on.

And, I, I simply typed out the words, why bother? And he, he wrote me back this really lovely, statement about how we, we bother because we find value in bringing to life something that lives in our mind. And, and ended his statement by saying, if I threw away those mid journey images, nobody would care because they took no effort.

And things that take no effort are hard to value. And, that, that sort of set me straight hearing, hearing somebody say that somebody who's half my age, he's 25 or 26, he talked me off of an interesting ledge because it made me realize that I need to, appreciate the journey and not be too focused on the [00:01:00] destination because the journey is the fun part. 

Welcome to the Daring Creativity Podcast, a show about daring to forever explore creativity that isn't about chasing shiny perfection. It's about showing up with all your doubts and imperfections and making them count. It's about becoming more of who you already are. My name is Radim Malinic I'm a designer, author, and eternally curious human being.

 I am talking to a broad range of guests who share their stories of small actions that sparked lifetime discoveries, taking one step towards the thing that made them feel most alive. 

 Let me begin this episode with a question. Are you ready to discover what happens when you dare to create? 

Today I'm speaking with Robert Hodgin, an artist and head of research and [00:02:00] development at Rare Volume, a company specializing in data visualization and immersive installations that make technology feel human. In this conversation, Robert talks about projects that combine tech and design equally, and why he believes that there's Tremendous opportunity to present data in art forward ways rather than just readable graphs. He also opens up about the challenge of working with tricky clients. Bud talks also about those who let him execute his vision without interference and why he thrives in space in between the analytical and the artistic by not fitting in evil world.

 It's my pleasure to share with you my conversation with Robert Hodgin. 

Radim: Hey, Robert, welcome to the show. How are you doing today?

Rob: I'm doing good. How are you?

Radim: Yeah, excited, excited to speak to you But, for those who might have never heard of you, how would you introduce yourself?

Rob: My name is Robert Hodgin. I am an [00:03:00] artist living in Brooklyn and I'm also the, head of research and development for a design and tech company called Rare Volume. And we are headquartered here in Chinatown in Manhattan, but also have offices in Austin 

Radim: what problems do you like to solve with rare volume? I think

Rob: our sweet spot is generally anything that combines, tech and design and equal measures. So, even though we're, perfectly capable at doing really nice motion graphics work, I think we excel when there's a level of tech involved, whether that's doing, you know, like smart signage for, for, large venues 

Or museum installations that require some amount of interactivity. especially if there is, interesting data that can be, um, visualized as well. We're very good at taking large data sets and finding the story in it and presenting it in a beautiful way. So that's where we, find most of our jobs.

Radim: Finding slight [00:04:00] dissonance, or should I say miss much between the words I'm an artist and then talking about large data sets? Because it's not usually what artists say like,Hey, I'm an artist, and by the way, I love large data sets. I mean, those are kind of like a yin and yang, like, you know. 

Rob: Yeah, it's, not surprising to hear that I went to, a, a science and math boarding school because I showed aptitude in science and mathematics. But once I got there, I, I realized that I, felt like an artist at heart. I was, I excelled at the art classes and I was sort ofokay at the science and math.

 And then I ended up going to risd, the Rhode Island. The Rhode Island School of Design, after high school. And it was there that I discovered that I was really interested in the sciences again. So I seemed to always be bouncing back and forth between the two. And I think that's why I like visualizing data in an artistic way because, it, it's not uncommon for, Data visualizers to be sort [00:05:00] ofin the, science bucket where they're not really too concerned about the aesthetics. They just want the data to show up on graphs and be readable. and, I think there's, there's more opportunity there to present the data in a way that feels more art forward. and that seems to be how I spent a lot of my time lately, is just finding interesting data sets and then finding non-traditional things to do with them.

Radim: I really like where you're going with this because as you know, the, the theme of the season is called Daring Creativity. And I love talking to people like yourself who try to stay away from conformity because it's something that feels, you know, too easy, too comfortable, too fortnight, too, too achievable, or too, too accessible.

Just feels like why bother? But before we go to that bit, You said you were in a science and maths boarding school. How does that happen? Who, who, who decided that that's where you're going?

Rob: I did. That was, uh, that was in,so I grew up in [00:06:00] Fayetteville, North Carolina. It's, it's a town that exists because it's next to an army base. and my, my dad was in the military, so that's where I grew up. And, I definitely did well in, in elementary school and junior high school. I, you know, I wasn't valedictorian, but I, I held my own, a's and B's and I was definitely interested in math and the sciences and, the opportunity to apply to this, boarding school called the North Carolina School of Science and Mathematics, appeared and I thought.

That would be an interesting way to get out of the house two years earlier than I normally would because it's 11th and 12th grades. you know, it's in a totally different city from where I lived. So I would, I would live in dorms and I would take college level classes. and, so I applied and got accepted with a enough of a scholarship that it seemed feasible.

 And so I, I moved out of the house at the age of, 15 to go study way too difficult [00:07:00] classes. it was a bit of a shock to get there and realize that I was not ready for college level math and science classes. I, I remember, uh, have an interest in astronomy, so I saw that they had an astrophysics class, and so I immediately signed up for it.

 On the first day, the teacher basically explained what prerequisites you needed to have in order to even participate in this class. And you needed to have some understanding of calculus, which I did not. And you needed to have some understanding of basic physics, which I did not 'cause those classes weren't offered at my high school.

I, I dropped that class and decided that I would take it again as a senior. So I did, and within the first week, I dropped out again because it was just way too difficult. So I might be the only person who dropped out of the same class two years in a row at the North Carolina School of Science and Math.

Radim: your dad was in Army. Did you guys move 

around a lot? 

Rob: he was in the Air Force, the, we were next to Fort Bragg [00:08:00] Army base, which surrounds a smaller Air force base called Pope Air Force Base. so he was in the Air Force for 22 years. We did not surprisingly move all that much. I spent two years in Japan from the ages of three to five, but I don't remember any of it.

It was way too young. And the rest of the time we were in my house on Dandridge Drive in Fayetteville, same house that my parents still live in. Some 60 years later.

Radim: your mum is a first gen, Japanese immigrant, was the influence of her culture on you as a, as an artistic kid when you were, when you were young? Was there any sort of clear influences or was it homogenized American upbringing?

Rob: It ended up being a pretty homogenized American upbringing. she tried to teach my brother and I Japanese at an early age, and at some point we both rebelled and said, why do you know? Why do we have to, you know, spend hours indoors drawing these funny looking characters when we could be outside playing?

 So [00:09:00] eventually we turned our back on it, and I regret that to this day. I wish that I had stuck with it. to be bilingual would be amazing, and to be able to talk to my mother in her, in her, you know, her original tongue would be phenomenal. She's since forgotten a lot of her Japanese language because, she just doesn't have the opportunity to use it much.

and so a lot of it's just fallen by the wayside in terms of, Her impact on my creativity. I, I can't think of anything concrete other than, being fascinated by aspects of Japanese aesthetics. but, my, my decision to be an artist came at a shock to both of my parents, who I think expected me to follow a more traditional path, that promised a bigger paycheck, like lawyer, doctor, accountant.

Rob: and I wanted to draw pictures all day, which, at the time, they thought maybe was a waste. But now, they're my, my biggest supporters, and I'm sure they're glad that I didn't pursue the more [00:10:00] boring careers 'cause I've done pretty well for myself.

Radim: So Despite your homogenized sort of cultural upbringing, you wanted to be an artist despite, your parents' wishes of that time. So what was your influences like? What did you, what breadcrumbs was, as I call it, what breadcrumbs did you follow that you realized, you know what I wanna draw, I wanna draw something as good as this, or something as good as, you know, certain influences.

Like what was your, what was your way into, creativity and how did you discover that ability?

Rob: Yeah. So, uh, my brother collected comic books for a while, and I remembered really being interested in the, the art, usually the covers. I found the covers to be really exciting and I was always impressed that somebody could accurately draw. A character and get the fingers just right and the pose really dynamic.

And so I, I started to, to redraw, not trace, but to transcribe over [00:11:00] my own version of the, the, the covers of these comic books that were the most interesting to me. and that made me think that I was a decent artist. But what I was actually doing was more of I was a decent, interpreter or a copier because, anytime I tried to draw my own content from, from my imagination, it always felt lacking.

And so, you know, fits and starts, I would, I would give up on it 'cause it was too hard, and then I would just be drawn back to it again. And so I got more interested in the mechanical aspects of drawing, things like, the science of perspective, you know, being able to draw. A grid from any angle by, you know, marking the two perspective points and drawing guidelines.

And so I liked that aspect of art. The really rigorous, it doesn't require too much imagination. It's very math forward. And you know, looking [00:12:00] back, 'cause I have not thought much about this. I guess that's why there's that sort of bridge between science and math for me, is that, I'm interested in the specific, details of how drawings work more than I am interested in, you know, coming up with my own visions, if that makes sense.

Radim: so from the boarding school and obviously dropping out from the same class twice, how do we get to,your first commercial creative work out there that you got paid for?

Rob: So, I went to the Rhode Island School of Design thinking that I would be a painter. I had spent a few years between high school and then eventually going to risd, trying to paint. I I was really interested in landscape painting and I was really bad at it, but I was, I was invested enough in it that I felt like I was paying my dues and I would eventually get better.

So I went to risd and once I got there, I was surrounded by people that were just so much better than me. And at the same [00:13:00] time, I was exposed to all these other disciplines that I just wasn't really, they weren't on my radar. illustration was the first thing that caught my eye. I thought I should, instead of trying to major as a painter, I could major as an illustrator.

As a side effect, that would probably be more monetizable. It'd be easier for me to find a job doing illustration than it would be for me to sell paintings probably. I mean, it's, it's, you know, it's impossible to say. But, so I thought, I'll, I'll do illustration and then, I don't know, I just might, I kept seeing things that intrigued me, like people in the glass blowing department, you know, making these really beautiful glass things.

And I was excited by that for a while. and then eventually, I decided to switch my major to industrial design, because I've never heard of this before. people have to design objects that exist in our world to be used. That's crazy. so I switched to industrial design and I was an industrial design major for my sophomore year.

And then by the end [00:14:00] of that, I decided to switch to sculpture, which was my major for my junior and senior. In my senior year, I realized what I really wanted to do was make digital art. 'cause it was around that time that some of the earliest, flash websites were coming out, and I was overwhelmed at how, forward thinking and impressive it was that I could just go to this URL and see someone's art and, you could reach, you know, potentially millions of people through this newish medium.

So I convinced my senior thesis advisor that instead of me working on a body of sculptures that I probably would've half-heartedly succeeded. that I wanted to spend my senior year learning, Photoshop learning, flash, learning the basics of HTML, just enough to get a website up. And luckily he, his brother, either worked at or was really, Tuned into the 3D [00:15:00] software called LightWave, which I don't think exists anymore. And so he understood that digital art was a path and RISD did not offer digital art as a major. So he thought that it would be a good use of my time. So I focused on learning flash and Photoshop. And then when I graduated, I followed a friend to a very small startup that just made like, I think it was just banner ads for other people's products like you'd make a little animated GIF banner ad, and you'd have to make sure that it was 10 k or smaller, and then you'd have to make six different sizes.

And so I did that for a little while. I showed an aptitude at doing that type of work, so I got hired by another company called Circle. circle Interactive. they got bought by the ad agency, Arnold, and all this boils down to me being put on a project for doing a Flash website [00:16:00] for, Volkswagen, the re-release of the Beetle in this new colorway called Timonium.

So I worked on this Flash website, which was the first flash website that Arnold, the advertising agency had worked on. And it ended up being a phenomenon and it went on to win either the, or one of the top awards at, at the can advertising, awards that year. And so that, that sort of really propelled my career because I was the Flash guy and nobody else in the agency knew Flash.

So whenever they needed flash anything, they would come to me. So it helped me establish roots in the advertising world pretty early.

Radim: I wanna go back on the point, no would illustration be more lucrative because it really is about what you put your heart into because then the universe will actually sense that what, that's what you stand for.

You put your soul into what you do. 

Rob: I was a pretty bad painter though. I'm glad none of my paintings exist, at least I don't think any of [00:17:00] them exist. I don't even have photographs of 'em because, I, I have this bad habit of aiming way too high, way too early. So instead of developing the fundamentals, I like to go for the, the finished final piece.

And that's bitten me a few times. Like I played classical guitar for something like 30 years, Spanish style classical guitar, but I can't play a single song. And part of the reason is, is because I never learned to read cheat music effectively. I could do it sortnote by note and figure out where that finger goes, and then I memorize how to play patterns instead of being able to just read.

And there was this song called The Usher Waltz by Nikita Kin, which is. Incredibly difficult and it's six minutes long and it's all over the fretboard. And you know, it's the type of song that you perform at your Julliard graduation performance. And I heard that song and I thought, I need to learn how to play it.

And so I spent years and [00:18:00] years and years trying to play something that was way beyond my skill level. And it turns out my patience level. 'cause what ultimately would happen is after getting to a point where I felt like I could do, you know, like maybe the first, I could play the first minute really well, I would just play the first minute over and over again and never move on to the second minute.

And then I get bored and I put the guitar down for months or years and then I pick it back up and the first thing that I would do is try to learn that same song again from scratch. And so I never succeeded in playing it all the way through. And I've got. You know, it was 30 years of fairly regular playing and I've got nothing to show for it because I,I didn't pay my dues, I didn't learn the basics.

And that it's probably less meaningful when it comes to something like painting. 'cause you could be really expressive with paint without knowing the history or the [00:19:00] techniques. But if you're gonna play, top level classical guitar song, you better know how to read sheet music and you better understand proper picking technique.

'cause

 I mean, I gave myself carpal tunnel from bad hand positioning. but, you know, I'm sure you're gonna find the, the sunny side of that story.

Radim: I'm with you on this one. I mean, even got people like John Mayer, who's Vitu Ozo, he can't read in music. 

 BB King never could read, 

there was a lot of famous people who, successful people who were just like, it's all done by ear. And I think that's that thing that, again, is the expression of your soul. Because 

 I love the dedication when you say Hey, I have been toiling with that song for long time, which is pretty, pretty, pretty impressive. But let's go back to work, shall we say? because you got some of, some of your other pieces of work are still, for example, you did a visualizer, like audio visualizer for, for iTunes and that still lives.

[00:20:00] And the first app, you did on one of the first iPad app that you designed ended up on as the Copper Hewitt, digital acquisition. So. There's a lot of things that are ticking boxes quite early.

Obviously you are quite at, obviously at the right time and the right place because I don't think the visualizer has been rewritten for iTunes many times since If, if at all, you know, and some of the things, obviously the first iPad app is now one of many millions, you know. So did this feel like achievements?

Did you feel like you were fulfilled with your work or was it plain selling or was it not?

Rob: think every one of those examples you mentioned definitely felt like an achievement. It, like the visualizer represented a time in my life where. Things just kept falling into place for me creatively. I, I, I'd spent a lot of time messing around with particle simulations and it wasn't until I started working with flocking simulations and coming up with my own style of [00:21:00] flocking simulation, which became magnetosphere, which is an iTunes visualizer that, I started to really have fun with doing creative coding because, I, you know, like a lot of people, I listen to music when I'm working and, working on an audio visualizer is a lot of fun because you're, you're seeing the results in front of you reacting to the music that you're playing while you're working, and it becomes really hypnotic and you just get lost in it.

And then next thing you know, it's, you know, three in the morning and you've gotta go to bed because you've got some ideas that you want to try out the next day. 'cause you've, you're keeping notes and everything just seems to make sense. And I really love those, those periods in my life where it seemed like.

 Every new day, there was already 20 things I wanted to try out. And, that was also true for the iPad app. planetary, which was a poorly conceived in that it was meant to be for people who listened to music on their iPad, which turns out wasn't very many people. but as a concept, it was really [00:22:00] solid.

It, it would analyze your, your music library and it would create a galaxy, really beautiful representation of a galaxy. And every star in that galaxy is, a musician, a band or solo artist, whatever. And, you click on the star and it would zoom down to the solar system level with the star at the center.

All the planets represent different albums by that musician. And then you click on a planet and all the moons around the planet represent different tracks for that album. And, I see looking back, I think working on this project was probably the most fun that I had in, developing, creative code aesthetic because there were a lot of questions that we had to answer.

It was me and three other people at a, a startup that no longer exists called Bloom. And, anytime we, we stumbled into, an aspect of this app that we didn't understand how it was gonna work, eventually we found just an amazing, elegant solution. And it was [00:23:00] so much fun looking back because, an experience, it worked beautifully and it was, it was, really fluid and it was just a lot of fun to show off to people because you just fill your iPad with music and then you just.

Exploring through this galaxy. And, oh, and one aspect of it that, like the, the moon orbiting around the planet, the time that it takes to orbit is equal to the track length. So you can use that as, as a way to scrub through the playback. and the metaphor was just so much fun to expand on and it ended up being a really beautiful project.

And then randomly, I think a year or two later, we were told that, the Cooper Hewitt was going to acquire the code base and it would be their first, digital acquisition for the Smithsonian Design Museum. And that was unexpected and crazy because, I don't know that any of us thought that, it would go that far.

'cause as an app it didn't do great. 'cause like I said, people just weren't putting music on their iPads. They were generally listening to it on their [00:24:00] laptops, or their phones. So it didn't quite get the use that we wanted, but it definitely achieved, nice long-term status by being memorialized at the design museum.

Radim: So tell me about a coding language, it obviously played a huge part in what you do today.

Rob: Yeah. So, in Flash there is, at the time there was a very rudimentary scripting language called Action Script. And you could use that for pretty basic things like telling the playhead where to go and, you know, really minor, high level things. it just wasn't very powerful and it wasn't great for doing what I was interested in, which was pushing a lot of particles around.

'cause in the, you know, if you're messing with particles, more is almost always gonna be better. It was around that time that a, a couple of my flash piers were using this new thing called processing. The things that they were able to show off were so much more impressive to me than what I was able to get done in flash.

So, I started to explore processing as a [00:25:00] creative tool and that was my first official coding language that I endeavored to learn. And it was, it was rough. It was a lot harder to pick up coding languages back then, 'cause you had to ask questions on like bulletin boards and stuff. There wasn't AI to give you the answer, you know, in two seconds.

it was often tracking down the person who might know the answer to this obscure math related question. So I spent a lot of time with processing and, and got pretty good at it. That exposed me to a little bit of how OpenGL works 'cause I wanted to be able to draw graphics faster. 'cause faster is also better when it comes to doing particle simulations.

Rob: and it was around that time that I met Andrew Bell, who was the co-author of the iTunes Visualizer and my current business partner and the head of, he's the director of Tech at Rare Volume. He, created a coding framework called Cinder, which is a c plus plus framework, a wrapper for making, it easier to [00:26:00] create new c plus plus projects with an eye on, more visual projects being created with c plus plus.

 So I would ask him coding questions and often he would say something like, I don't know how to do that in Java, but in, in c plus plus, you do it like this. And so he dragged me kicking and screaming into the world of, of coding with c plus plus, which was, hard and painful and wrapping my head around pointers versus references.

All these things just. So foreign to me. But, after many, many years of that, I started to help him with writing cinder tutorials. and so in a sense I became like a co-creator of Cinder through doing tutorials, which were geared specifically for people that were moving from something like processing into something more powerful, like c plus plus.

And then, at some point I hit a wall with c plus plus because it, I, I kept wanting things to look more [00:27:00] rendered, I, you know, multiple light passes and subsurface scattering. Like I was able to get sortof a basic aesthetic, but whenever I wanted it to be more lush and more believable, I would just end up spending weeks researching, faster algorithms for doing, you know, all number of different lighting and shadow techniques.

And I hated that because. I stopped being an artist and I became more of like a, a researcher for myself. and it just got to a point where creating with code just felt like it was, holding me back. And so Andrew also again, seems to know what's best for me more than I do myself. He told me I should look into Houdini as a tool for doing creative coding. And, that was an interesting and painful transition because, if you're not familiar with Houdini, it has one of the hardest learning curves for, for 3D software because it's for, its specialty is for doing smoke and [00:28:00] fire and water sims that you see in, in movies. And I'm not interested in that.

I'm interested in just using it as a creative coding framework. but a lot of the tutorials you'd find online were geared towards learning how to make the most realistic building explosion and, It just, it just ended up being incredibly challenging to get up to speed with it. And it took several years before I felt like I was finally at a point where I was, I was, back when I was still doing c plus plus Dev.

Rob: and so it was a huge step backwards. And then now I feel like I'm in a really good place because, Houdini's great for doing rapid prototyping of ideas. And if I want a slick rendered look that's there for me and it's really easy, you just drop some lights in the scene and hit go. the trade off, of course, is you, you lose the, the real time interactivity, which I do miss.

Radim: when you meant telling me all of this, it brought me back to few words that our friend Bert Burton Ra mentioned on this [00:29:00] podcast when he was talking about you.

 And it was a quote that he, he heard you saying it at, at Paradiso. And he said that quote hit me like a, you know, punched to the gut. I was like, okay, what was it? And he said, well, Rob, you said you said things that make no effort are hard to value,

Rob: yeah. Well, I, I should, I should offer that, that wasn't my quote. It was what was told to me by one of our employees, Luca, who is wise beyond his years. I had been working on, Creating these procedurally generated Japanese stone lanterns in Houdini. And it was a couple months in and it was starting to get to a point where I felt really excited about it 'cause I was, procedurally growing moss and all sort of the shady bits and, and making the surface look really weathered and cracked.

And, and it was a lot of fun. And then I would hit, you know, render and then go to sleep and I'd come back the next morning and see if it looked okay. And it was around that time that I [00:30:00] thought, I wonder what mid journey would be able to do with this prompt. So I typed in, you know, aged Japanese stone lantern, you know, moss, whatever, and immediately got back four beautiful Japanese stone lanterns of all different designs.

 And, made me angry. I didn't know what to think about this because the desire to continue working on my version of it evaporated. It's like, why would I, why would I spend the time now? When it's gonna be so easy to, to jump to the end. It's like reading the last page of a book. You don't then wanna read the book 'cause you know what happens.

 So Midjourney showed me the end of my journey for this particular project and it was really frustrating to me because, I was really excited by the project until I saw that AI can generate good results pretty quickly, without any of the struggles. So I remember sending Luca, a few of these [00:31:00] midjourney outputs 'cause he had been paying attention to what I'd been working on.

And, I, I simply typed out the words, why bother? And he, he wrote me back this really lovely, statement about how we, we bother because we find value in bringing to life something that lives in our mind. And, and ended his statement by saying, if I threw away those mid journey images, nobody would care because they took no effort.

And things that take no effort are hard to value. And, that, that sort of set me straight hearing, hearing somebody say that somebody who's half my age, he's 25 or 26, he talked me off of an interesting ledge because it made me realize that I need to, appreciate the journey and not be too focused on the destination because the journey is the fun part.

Being done with a project is not gonna be as fun as working on the project. and, so I'm glad that that quote landed for Burton because it definitely landed for me. And, [00:32:00] I, I make it a point to incorporate that story into my conference talks of late because it really had an impact.

Radim: You made really amazing comparison. And by the way, Luca seems annoyingly wise 

Rob: Yeah, he's one of those guys who, who refused to get a smartphone because just like, why would he need, you know, a computer at his fingertips? And he had to buy one because I guess the building that he moved into, you couldn't operate the washer and dryer without having smartphone access.

 So he had to reluctantly get pulled into the 21st century.

Radim: I like that. But you made a really amazing comparison when you said, mid Journey showed me the last page of this story by creating this amazing thing. And you're on sort of youreavesdropping and you're jumping in sort of mid, mid journey 

 until towards the end journey. And yeah, you kind, you persevere with actually creating your own code. Ultimately, you own your code, you own your ip, you own your process. [00:33:00] And what I really wanted to know, like how difficult is it to actually code moss or how difficult is to code texture in?

It's 

Rob: well, the mathematical brain kicks in and you start to think about, Like first, where would the moss grow? And so I did these sort of very rudimentary rainfall simulations, which would show me where on these randomly generated structures, there would be the most amount of pooling water.

 And also, creating an arbitrary light source just to see where the shadows would be. And so my logic was, I'll start where there's the most water and where there's the most shadow, and that's gonna be where the moss begins to, to grow from. And then from there I started to research,infectious growth solvers, which would.

 Start to slowly cover the form. and, and then you pay attention to things like gravity. Like it's more likely the moss is gonna be on the top of an object than on the side. And I don't know if any of this is true. I don't know if moss favors sunlight over shade. It probably [00:34:00] does. It would need to in order to grow.

Rob: and I don't think moss has any problem growing on the sides or the undersides of objects, but it was just through looking at reference material and, and seeing it out in the real world and just breaking down what I think would need to happen in order for me to reproduce this. Of course, tutorials go a long way.

There's a few tutorials online for doing this style of, of procedurally generated plant growth. So, you know, you, you dive into those and you figure out what bits of those apply to what you're working on, and then it's just a lot of trial and error until you get a look. That feels right. And then once you do, you, you exploit it as much as you can and and create as many variations as you can.

Radim: We are very much back to science, math, boarding school.

 It just, basically, I'm sticking with my problem. I've created a space for myself. It's science, it's math, it's art,

 Like you're looking at pretty much the [00:35:00] science, the nature, like the ways how do we make the, the real life references. Even more desirable, like how do we create a hyper, well, how do you create, not me, but how do you create that hyperrealism that can actually push your work into new realm?

And actually not kind of running away from that conformity of like what is the status quo and what can we do with it? Because, as you said, using Houdini, not for water simulation, not for mo simulation in this case, but it's a creative code that transcends the program and I kind of almost uses it for what it was necessarily designed in the first place.

And I think, and I like that because it, it creates unprecedented and unexpected results that inspire other people to do something different with it. So how long do you normally perceive a project like this? Because it's not a quick result. I mean, obviously you know your tools, you know your ways, obviously, you know where to look for for, for ways to sort oftroubleshoot things, but.

 That's a determination. It's been like the athlete that shows up on track every [00:36:00] day, you know, because they're obsessed about the thing. They show up in the gym. They obviously, they work on themselves to learn, teach, learn, understand, you know, observe, and then put into practice. So how much of dedication have you put into your work?

Rob: It is, I mean, I don't wanna say it's all I think about, but it's certainly a large, portion of my day is contemplating things that I want to understand better. and I think one of the or original examples of this fascination I had with seeing fox of birds, murmuration of birds, you know, millions of starlings flying over Rome or wherever it might be.

 And, my natural instinct was to want to understand what was going on, to have a sense of, of what each bird is paying attention to in order for millions of them to create this cohesive hole that feels like a living creature. And, So I [00:37:00] spent a really long time exploring, how you could reproduce that effect in code.

starting with Craig Reynolds original Boyd's algorithm from the 1980s. And then just building on it, through trial and error, through, just taking in a lot of reference material, just watching, as many videos of these bird flocks as possible so that I could have a more intuitive understanding of the science behind what's actually happening.

 And, that, that just, that's just how I pass my day. And I happened to be thinking about the Japanese lantern in my mom's backyard, which had been there, you know, for several decades. And I thought the shape was really evocative and I wondered what it would be like to create a system that could just generate these shapes randomly, not abstractly, but believably generate Japanese lanterns of a variety of shapes. So I started to research the history of, of these [00:38:00] particular type of Japanese lanterns, see all the different design styles over the, the centuries. in the back of my mind, I'm constantly thinking, what would I need to do in Houdini in order to create this shape?

Or what would I need to do in Houdini in order to understand, how to handle, the moss growth. and it's just something that I think about all things. I wanna know how things work. I wanna, I wanna have a better understanding of how the things that interest me work. And that's, that's usually how every one of every single one of my Houdini projects begins.

Radim: love the fact that. we, I guess we as humans, we go through this dissonance of life. oh, I wanna be creative at a moment when I'm not creative, especially in our younger years, you know, like,oh, I've got this idea. I need to make it now. Otherwise it's never gonna happen.

 Would you beautifully describe, is this space to think, to absorb, to, to, to analyze, to observe? [00:39:00] Because you talk with such grace and eloquent about like how your, interests or, sort of small obsessions take you to, to understanding this thing, that you tried to portray it with code.

Because you've told me you had a sort of, before this conversation, you told me that you had a sort of bout of sort of imposter syndrome

 and I'm like, but how you, you know. So much and, and you can do so much more than a lot of people. I can combine with a large number of people I can combine, but yeah, imposter syndrome and elements of doubts and imperfection can can come through the cracks and, take over.

So, would you be happy to tell me a little bit of how, despite everything you know of your achievements, you got to find yourself with imposter syndrome?

Rob: especially after, getting to know Burton better, and hearing his podcast episode and seeing his talks, it's, it's become even more obvious to me that it's just, it's something that [00:40:00] most people go through, I assume, and if not, then they're probably secretly narcissists, that think they could do no wrong.

And that is definitely not me. So, the imposter syndrome moment that really sticks out for me was, I was, Pretty regularly doing conference talks through the two thousands and early 2010s. And, I started to get pretty good at it and I enjoyed doing them. And it, it was not uncommon for me to be chosen as the, the final speaker of a lineup because I've definitely put a lot of effort and time into crafting brand new talks for every conference.

I, for some reason, I got it in my head that I should never do the same talk twice, even though it would be for, you know, audience in Europe versus an audience in San Francisco. Like,there's not gonna be many people that are in both audiences. But I didn't want to ever get the same talk twice, which was a silly limitation I put on myself.

That just made my life much harder. And, I [00:41:00] started to get a little burnt out doing talks, but, at, one talk, I don't remember exactly where it was probably Brighton, I think it was in Brighton. I met, Stephan Sagmeister and we chatted a bit 'cause he really liked my talk where I think I broke down the logic behind flocking simulations and how they work and how I work with them.

 And so we got to emailing and we would occasionally meet up, for meal and just chat. And, he sent me an email one day and it was to invite me to a conference that he was organizing in India and he wanted me to be on a panel. And he said that the other people on the panel were going to be David Byrne and Peter Gabriel.

 And, I immediately said, yes, of course. I said Yes. 'cause that's, you know, like how exciting. And then the sort of the doom of it all set in. And I talked about this at Paradiso. this was my. My intro [00:42:00] statement about how I said no to Stephan Sagmeister. I lost sleep, I had panic attacks. I couldn't understand what I would possibly have to say on stage next to Peter Gabriel and David Byrne.

 That would make any difference. I would be the guy that people would point at and say, who's that? Sitting next to Peter Gabriel, he looks terrified and he hasn't said a word. And, after many sleepless nights, I eventually sent Stefan an email saying that I just couldn't do it. I don't even remember if I gave him an excuse.

I think I just said, I can't do it. I'm sorry. I can't do it. And oh, the relief, like hitting send on that email immediately all the clouds lifted and I just felt like I could breathe again. And that sort of ushered in this very long period of me not wanting to do public speaking anymore because that moment.

 Was so frustrating to me that I just decided to avoid anything that would trigger those feelings again. So I said no to conference after conference [00:43:00] until people stopped asking. And finally 10 years later, I feel like I found my voice again and I want to do it. So I've been trying really hard to speak at conferences and do these types of podcast episodes because now I enjoy them.

They don't feel like obstacles to my happiness. They feel like just interesting things to do in my journey. And so I, I'm not gonna say I conquered my imposter syndrome, but I'm certainly paying less attention to it now because it just, ultimately, it doesn't matter what I think other people think about me, as long as I feel like I'm making strong work and I'm keeping myself entertained as I go, then just focus on that.

Radim: I like that you said that people might be thinking, who's the guy over there? He looks scared and he said nothing, but I know there's always a what if, but imagine David Burn looking at you going. How'd you do that in Houdini? Because I never heard of [00:44:00] Houdini. You know, I mean, it was funny 'cause I think it was interview with BJ Richardson who said, you know, at Paradiso, what'd you tell Stefan Sagmeister in our, in my talk?

And I was like, well, it turns out there's a lot that Stefan Sagmeister doesn't know 

 because he doesn't think about these things, you know? But we put ourselves in such angio pressure going thinking, well, why would I, deserving of that space. Why would I be doing this? And then you realize there's the people who know half of the stuff, a third of the stuff, and they go like, Hey, sign me up.

I wanna do this. I'm like, you sure you wanna be of any value? Of course, I, I'm, but you know, this is that, that conviction where people said like, well, Iwell, I can do it, you know, and I spoke, I spoke it off, off 2015 myself, and it was somewhere upstairs. And yeah, I spoke there, but again, I thought the same.

Just like you, oh, I need to do different talk for everywhere. I go, I need to do this, I need to do this, I need to do this. You make it difficult for you on yourself without anybody even noticing whatever you've done, how you did it. You know, unless you speak on the main stage at every festival every [00:45:00] month, 

 that is, no, you should really freshen up the talk.

 even, for example, Stefan I think ended up talking about beauty for about three years, and 

then he talked about something else for about three years, and no one was like, oh, it's just the same

Rob: I know. And that makes, that makes perfect sense. And I think it was Mark, it was either Marco or Hector who told me that the way I should think about it is when people go see bands that they like perform. They don't get disappointed when that band performs songs that they've heard already.

 They get excited because they're familiar with the content and it means something to them. So I'm trying to embrace that aspect of it. I'll still try to mix my talks up and not just use the same keynote for each one. I want it to be a little customized for each conference, but I'm less concerned about coming up with a full new 50 minutes, you know, every two months, which is just draining.

Radim: Yeah, no. 'cause you will find yourself like really chiseling the next talk. you know, doing it for the first time, being a little bit nervous 'cause you it for the first time and then you get bit, you know, the likes of Stefan or, or, or, or grappling just doing that [00:46:00] one talk they've been doing for the last 10 years.

It'd be like, well that's a lot more fluid than 

my talk, you know? 

Then you realize, yeah, because they've been doing it for 10 years. Word for word. But the thing is. It's about what you wanna get with it because the more vulnerable stuff you put out there, and we don't advise anyone to be rewriting their talk for every event because you know you wanna put some care in it.

Again, things that take no effort are hard to value. Obviously you wanna put something on the stage that people be like. I needed to hear this and sometimes is that the moments of vulnerability, the re revelation of like fear of shame, you know, like having love sort of shame, resilience, all of that stuff.

That's what really resonates with other people because you can talk about architecture from, hundreds of years ago we're like, well, some people like it, some people haven't got a clue what you're talking about. But being out there, being open, which is one of the reasons why we are on this podcast today and why what I'm doing what I do is actually being able to shine a light on some of these [00:47:00] topics and make it really clear how we are all equal in life and creativity.

We do, we do have our own stories, we have our own tools and ways of working. But I've said it many times before, you see some really accomplished people having so much anxiety about their work and you're like, well, you are 300,000 followers. Don't really think that, you know, like why would you be worried?

 I think we need that sort of defense mechanism. I think we need those sort of anxiety senses and alarms going off because we can't just, take it easy. Like sometimes, like if it's way too easy, if you're not pushing enough, then are you really creating value?

Are you really pushing yourself? And are you growing? Are you are you moving forward? And I think that's the question. And I've, that's kind of whole idea of daring creativity. Like daring creativity is nobody about jumping out of a plane, it's following the flock of birds.

I thinking I'm gonna do that Houdini.

Rob: I love it.

Radim: I wanna talk about rare volume before we, before we wrap up. So. You told me you [00:48:00] like putting things on the big screens. How difficult is it to start with a vision and see it delivered in a way that doesn't compromise, breaks the mold, fierce conformity. How difficult do you find the agreement of what excellence means to clients, the production team, the creative director, all sorts of stuff.

Rob: Yeah. Yeah, that's an interesting question and it's, it's something that I'm not great at. I've seen many of my ideas get butchered, by, clients because, you know, they're, paying us to execute their vision most of the time. and, I'm not the most,calm and, and collected about those moments because I do have this sort of inner, diva that thinks that because I had so many successes in my life that they should treat me as if I know best.

 And I know that that's a silly thing, especially in [00:49:00] light of, relationships with clients. it's an interesting, it's an interesting challenge. The projects that end up frustrating me are the ones where the clients show up and they say, we want you to do what you do 'cause we love your work.

 We want it to be art forward. we're gonna stay outta your way. And then you show them something that you're happy with. And the first thing they do is they show you, like some deck or mood board their creative came up with and said can you make it more like this? and that just happens so much.

It's, it, it's gotten to the point where if I hear the phrase Art Forward, I'm gonna assume that, it's not gonna be, and they already know what they wanna see. They just, they're, they're too afraid to dictate it during the call, I guess. there's been some projects that, that were fantastic. we did I think our first project as rare volume was to do, content for Samsung for their flagship store in the Meatpacking district. The content was on a, like a three story video wall. It was huge. And they [00:50:00] stayed out of our way. We got to execute our vision almost to the letter with minor notes. because what they wanted at the end of the day was art. They wanted big, beautiful moving art on their big beautiful three story video wall.

And they didn't need to throw the Samsung logo up on everything and, you know, dictate brand guidelines. They wanted us to do sort of alove letter to New York City as viewed through like a Samsung lens. And so that, that was an example of a project that I think, is, you know, is up there with ones that I feel most strongly about.

Rob: we did another project for, for Barcelona for the big, torte Glos tower, the, the, the sort of big phallic tower in the middle of the city. we have an installation in the ground floor, that you walk through in order to get up to the roof deck. And it's this huge. Expansive. Very, very wide projection wall.

 And, we did a series of art pieces for that project that are little data stories. Ones about, the wind, like how strong the [00:51:00] wind is moving at that very moment is visualized with this rippling cloth. And, another that shows what stars you would be able to see if it were suddenly dark and there was no building in the way you'd be able to see this specific star field and all the satellites that are passing by.

 That was also an, it was a challenging project, but I think ultimately, I feel really strongly about how well it turned out because, it just looks fantastic and it looks, the, you know, the, the scale of the piece is just kind of overwhelming and, and then there's plenty of projects where I'm just like, you guys were wrong with your decision.

You should have listened to us. But, I guess we gotta take the money and, and just. Pretend that you knew best when I know secretly, we would've executed something much nicer than what they got if they had just stayed out of our way.

Radim: So you remember me saying how we discover how we are equal in life and creativity. So the things that you produce, the level of complexity that [00:52:00] know the clientele, the executions, the displays. You still get clients who come to you and say, Hey, I love what you do. Can you do something for us?

 This is kind of universal language of oh shit, this is, this is the red flag. And it's amazing that even with what you do and how you do it, it still happens to you too because it happens on so many levels. I think everyone's had that experience and It really drives it home how we are all equal.

And it all happens to us. Robert, thank you for talking to me today. I've, I've, I've really enjoyed learning so much about you your work. it's beautifully complex.

It blows my mind. You've got lots of fans of people who, who love what you do. So it's great that you're coming back on, the speaking circuit and sharing this with lot of people. And 

Rob: sure. 

Radim: thank you for talking to me today.

Rob: Thank you Adam. This has been a lot of fun and I was looking forward to this because, people seem to enjoy themselves when they talk to you, and now I see why you are a very gracious host.

Radim: Thank you so much. [00:53:00]