In this conversation, copywriter and brand voice specialist Vikki Ross returns to discuss the intersection of authentic creativity and AI anxiety in the modern marketing landscape. 

She shares her approach to finding distinctive voices for major brands like JLR (Jaguar Land Rover) and Formula E, emphasizing the importance of simplicity, curiosity, and human connection in copywriting. Ross candidly addresses the fears surrounding AI in creative industries, arguing that the noise about AI replacing copywriters is louder than the reality, while acknowledging that brands and creatives need to focus on what makes human communication irreplaceable: genuine understanding, emotional connection, and lived experience.

The discussion explores how brands can navigate an increasingly fragmented and polarized world, the dangers of chasing viral trends over consistent authenticity, and why showing support for causes requires action beyond logo changes. Ross reveals her "nosiness" as a professional superpower—immersing herself completely in clients' worlds by experiencing their products, researching their audiences, and understanding their competition. 

She advocates for practical, accessible brand guidelines that empower non-copywriters to maintain consistent voices across organizations, proving that simplicity is the outcome of reduction and deep understanding rather than minimal effort.

Key Takeaways"

• AI cannot replicate the human heart—creative work that moves people comes from lived experience and genuine emotional understanding
• True curiosity ("nosiness") means immersing yourself completely in a brand's world, experiencing their products as consumers do, and understanding their audience deeply
• Simplicity in brand voice is achieved through reduction and testing, not minimalism—it's the outcome of hard work, not the starting point
• A free focus group exists 24/7 on social media—ignoring how audiences naturally express themselves about your brand is foolish
• Brands should avoid sounding like wallpaper—saying the same things as competitors provides false comfort but prevents differentiation and long-term success
• Effective tone of voice guidelines are instructions for action, not lengthy descriptions—non-copywriters need practical "how" over theoretical "what"
• Jumping on viral trends only works if it's already embedded in your brand personality—otherwise it's embarrassing, late, and damages long-term strategy
• Generosity and showing interest in others' work creates more opportunities than self-promotion—relationships matter more than portfolios
• Consistent action supporting causes matters more than temporary logo changes—one-hit campaigns feel empty and leave audiences feeling empty too
• The AI anxiety narrative is largely unfounded noise—clients who value good copywriting still need human copywriters, and those who don't never valued it anyway

Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic

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[00:00:00] 

Vikki Ross: social media, is creating anxiety not just in individuals, but now in brands. And they think that they have to get this quick hit to have any success, but it's just, it's not gonna land with all of your customers. you've probably got a really wide range of customers of, different ages, and not everyone is chronically online.

They might not know what this trend is that you are buying into or jumping on. So the whatever you're communicating is not gonna, mean anything to them. So that's damaging in the long run. But going more into your world on the visual side of things and talking about how brands react when brands change their logos to support a cause, I think most people would be off the mind that, show me that you support a cause. Don't tell me for a start. 'cause it's all about actions, not words. don't tell anyone I said that. Now I'm joking. A copywriter saying it's not about words. But,every black [00:01:00] History month or pride, if you keep changing your logo to show all the causes that you support, what is your logo? 

Welcome to the Daring Creativity Podcast, a show about daring to forever explore creativity that isn't about chasing shiny perfection. It's about showing up with all your doubts and imperfections and making them count. It's about becoming more of who you already are. My name is Radim Malinic I'm a designer, author, and eternally curious human being.

 I am talking to a broad range of guests who share their stories of small actions that sparked lifetime discoveries, taking one step towards the thing that made them feel most alive. 

 Let me begin this episode with a question. Are you ready to discover what happens when you dare to create? 

Radim: Today I [00:02:00] welcome back Vicki Ross, a copywriter and a global tone of voice specialist to discuss the intersectional authentic creativity and AI anxiety in the modern marketing landscape. In our conversation, we talked about our approach to finding distinctive voices for major brands, emphasizing the importance of simplicity, curiosity, and human connection.

In copywriting, Vicki openly talks about the need to focus on what makes human communication special. It's the real understanding, emotional connection, and personal experience. We also talk about how brands find their way in a world that feels more divided. 

 why it's risky to chase viral trends instead of staying true to your brand and why real support for causes means more than just changing your logo. It is my real pleasure to share with you my conversation with Vicki Ross.

 Vicki, it's so great to have you back. How are you doing today?

Vikki Ross: I'm good. Thank you. Thanks for having me [00:03:00] back. how are you?

Radim: Yeah, I'm ground. It's great to see you. You were my guest, number two, And I thought you need to come back because what I'm seeing, what you put out in the world, how you perceive the world of creativity, the world of copywriting, the world of, advertising.

There's always valuable, insights for me. So I was like, okay, you need to come back. You need to talk to me and let's see what we can do. In the world of ai, emergencies of AI and this sort of uncertainty for creatives, what can we potentially instill and make people slightly less panicky?

Radim: that's made me sound like I'm a bit of an AI pro and I'm absolutely not.

Vikki Ross: we'll find out. you're a pro in the world of copy, Yeah, and I have opinions on ai, so yes,

Radim: And that's exactly the reason why you're back. for those who I may not listen to the episode number two or don't follow your LinkedIn at other places, how would you introduce yourself?

Vikki Ross: I always say I'm Vicki and I'm a copywriter. And everyone always says to me, that is nowhere near close enough [00:04:00] to describing who you are and what you do. but I only ever wanted to be a copywriter, so that's always what I say. I guess if I was to elaborate, I am more than a copywriter. I'm, a brand and tone of voice consultant.

So I find a voice for a brand and help them, express themselves. I'm not very good about talking about myself and what I do. Can I write it down? I'm much better at that.

Radim: You can write it down and I'll put it in the show notes, but I think I always say, if you have a problem to explain yourself, you're doing something right. Because sometimes people are very set. Oh yeah, I'm good at this. when people say, like when they're quite clear about what they are and what they want to do, I always feel like, is there deviation?

is there a leeway? Because if you've got problem to explain yourself, I think that's a good problem to have. 

I just like to keep things simple. and I think if you know what a copywriter is, then I don't need to tell you much more. I think sometimes if we can, if we get ourselves wrapped up in describing who we are and what we do, we may [00:05:00] be lacking confidence in what we do. I dunno. Now I sound like I'm lacking confidence in what I'm saying.

Vikki Ross: Anyway, let's move on.

Radim: actually no,I won't let you move on just for a second because you said if someone knows what the copywriter is, they know what I do. But when you meet mortals in a social setting and you say a copywriter and you meet Gary Di, plumbing engineer, whoever, how would you explain the meaning and power of words to someone like him?

Vikki Ross: when I meet normal people and they ask what I do, I say I, find a voice for brands. I don't even say copywriter. and they glaze over. 'cause that doesn't really mean much to them either. 'cause I don't think normal people think that brands are talking to them in a certain way. which is why it's so important that we have a voice that, stands out as a brand and means something to someone because yeah, people aren't thinking, I wonder what Sainsbury's is going to say to me today and I wonder how they're gonna say it and wasn't their choice of words really interesting.

Vikki Ross: so yeah, then it opens up an interesting conversation because as I say, [00:06:00] people don't realize that's what goes on behind the scenes. and then. They might say, oh yeah, actually. 'cause I did notice on an email that I got from them. it was really friendly or something like that. So yeah, then it turns into a conversation about how they feel a brand, fits within their lives.

And I'm really nosy and I love it when the conversation goes that way. And I also like talking about other people more than I do myself, which doesn't set us up. It's for a good conversation on a podcast. Does it?

Radim: No, no, I think it does. I think I, I like it when you say I'm nosy. I

think that's, that's a first, 

Vikki Ross: I'm so nosy.

Radim: that's one of the reasons for this podcast, full stop. because nosy,it's a slightly bolder name for curiosity, intrigue, It's just, that's, I think if you always try to know, what's next, what's around the corner?

I think that sort of sets you up for a super interesting career, because ultimately it can also make you feel like what you create in, it's not always enough. You feel like you can go further, you can potentially, improve. You can [00:07:00] find that different voice for a brand. You can find a different way how to speak to people, because yeah, the curiosity is replaceable.

How would you describe your curiosity?

Vikki Ross: so my nosiness, ends with the job. I'm not nosy in real life, like whatever's going on in other people's lives with none of my business. But when it comes to work, I want to know everything about, a brand and where they. Been and how they got to where they are and where they're going and who works there and who does what.

I need to feel like I'm part of the furniture because as a consultant, and I'm sure you will feel the same when you're working for a brand that you haven't, been, I don't like saying journey, but on the journey with, for years, you're not part of the team and you dunno all the, insider info you have to get on board as quickly as possible to think and act like you do.

 Otherwise, whatever you create on behalf of that brand is gonna be really light touch and it'll show that you don't know much about [00:08:00] it. so yeah, I suppose my nosiness is, I wanna feel like I work there when I start working with a new client.

Radim: how do you get under the skin of the brand?

Like how do you do this? 'cause you said, I want to be, part of the brand. I want to understand as much as possible, what are the methods for you that, would help you to do that? Like, do you have certain checklists or certain processes, certain ways of doing this?

Vikki Ross: I don't have a process or a checklist that sounds like, I, I should have, it's an organized way to start a project, but no, I will ask the client to send me everything they feel comfortable sharing. strategy, documents, Any reports that they've been working on, any meeting notes, any presentations that have led them to the point where they will contact me.

and then I'll do my own research. So obviously we can always look online and social and find all sorts of things about the people that we're working with. I say people, the brand. but I'll also experience their product or service if I can. [00:09:00] So for example, I'm in the middle of working with Formula E at the moment and when I first started working with them, it was really good timing 'cause they were just about to host their, e pre, their grand final in London.

So I went and I, there's just no way I would've been able to write what I've written for them had I not been to that day. and the same goes for. any brand that I've worked with, you just experience it on a different level to what you are being presented with. I guess it's like the creative technique show.

Don't tell. So the client can tell me anything they want, but it's not until they show me or I find a way for it to be shown to me that I can fully understand what's going on. And also, at the epr, for example, experiencing it as a consumer, as a fan. So again, not the client telling me what the experience should be like, but me seeing how the experience is affecting the people that are there, the real people that are there.

Radim: when you were talking about the fact that you are asking clients to send you everything, were they comfortable sending you, [00:10:00] how much of a social listening do you do with brands? Because I found myself recently had a talk about fandom, where there's a sort of hidden fandom for brands and, how do you show up on Reddit and Discord and elsewhere?

That was like, oh, wait a minute. That's a very good idea. Do you do any of this sort of, research on brands?

Vikki Ross: Yeah, I do. Maybe not as deep a dive as a fandom. Professional would, but I do have a good look around because as much as it's important for me to know what a brand is up to, it's equally as important to know how a consumer or a fan is thinking and feeling about the brand or the product. 'cause if I'm trying to find a voice for the brand to talk to them in, it's gotta be in one that's going to mean something to them.

so yeah, I do a lot of that. And then when I do talks and workshops, I do always say to whoever I'm talking to, you have a free focus group at your fingertips 24 7. You can see what your, audience is, as I say, [00:11:00] thinking and feeling at any point. So to ignore them when they're expressing themselves without you asking them to, is foolish.

Radim: This is interesting. Yeah. Three focus group, 24 7.

have you found brands that were unwilling to listen to this? Like unwilling to take on feedback and actually stick into a particular voice that is not always open to, a dialogue?

Vikki Ross: No, I don't find clients unwilling. I do find that a lot of them need a reminder of everything that's available to them in getting to a successful and effective result. for example, the social media thing that we just talked about, but also just knowing what your competitors are up to. I've been working with a lot of streaming platforms and. They all want to say, and some of them do say all your entertainment all in one place, all your football games all in one place. Everything's all in one place. And it's amazing how many don't look to the side at their [00:12:00] competitors and see that they're all saying all in one place as well. Why would you want to say the same thing as another brand?

And I get that in this weirdo world that we're in of massive anxiety, that there's comfort in sounding the same as somebody else, but I just don't think there's a place for that in, for a brand and in a world where you need to stand out and, and make money. If you are in a category that looks like wallpaper and people can't tell the difference from one brand to another, you're not going to succeed in the long term.

And you could argue that the product does a lot of the heavy lifting, and it does, but so does having a communication and a connection, with your audience. So I'll quite simply, like I said at the start, I like to make things simple. Quite simply just put on a page. I'm very much a Word document person, by the way.

That's about the extent of my, techno technology skills, which sets us up for how we're gonna talk about AI soon. but I'll just put on a, in a Word document, brand name, slogan, or positioning statement, [00:13:00] and I'll do it for however many I can think of or find, and I'll present it back to the client.

And very often they're like, oh my God, we just haven't seen this or looked at it. It takes five minutes to see what your competitors are up to. so yeah, there's a bit of a reminding job going on sometimes when I work with clients.

Radim: one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you again is that 

 you've got this collection of posts with the theme of that aligns that AI wouldn't write. And it's an incredible collection because sometimes we think that it needs to be pure excellence, like AI wouldn't write something excellent, but most of the things that you post are very much just about that soul, about like, how does it speak to another person?

 So I know that in the past you've been running Easter Bingo and Christmas bingo and that kind of stuff, and now we talk more about AI because how much of a shift have you seen in your part of the industry and copywriting and obviously generative ai, especially with tools like Chad, GPT, and [00:14:00] Claude and all the others, obviously that has shaken up the foundation a little bit 

 what's the general situation, and how have you seen the last few years changed it, the part of your industry?

Vikki Ross: I think the biggest change is how much AI is talked about. I think the noise is louder than the reality of what's going on. 

I think social media has a lot to answer for in all sorts of ways, in everything. But with ai, in particular, I think the vibe is the economy is shit. Companies don't have any money. They're not paying for creatives because they can use ai and so that makes the creatives think, oh shit. I'm going to be out of a job or because they don't have a job, they can blame that on AI and it makes clients think, oh, everyone's using ai, so I [00:15:00] should use ai.

But hardly anyone knows what to do with it. So I'm really enjoying the posts on social media that I see and that I've been seeing for the last six months. talking about copywriting specifically where a marketer has said, I tried using AI for a campaign and it just didn't deliver.

So I've hired a copywriter or copywriter saying I lost a client to ai, but they didn't like what happened. So they got me back and. It's that noise is not as loud as the noise that is screaming. AI is taking our jobs and the industry publications are not helping. I find it irresponsible and insane that the industry publications run headlines.

Like AI is gonna wipe out creativity because who is that help? It's not helping anybody and it's unfounded. And the reason I think it's unfounded, and I might sound really naive and optimistic, but I'd rather be optimistic than [00:16:00] scaremongering. I find it's unfounded because in 2019 I did a talk at a really big conference and for some reason, 'cause it wasn't in my wheelhouse at all at the time, I decided to call the talk.

The robots aren't coming in which I presented the case that AI cannot create adverts, and write copy like real people do. That was six years ago. That's six years in AI years is like 5,000 lifetimes. We're not there yet. I just don't, I just can't see that it's going to completely take over. it is just not good enough.

And you know what, the clients that do think it's good enough, they were writing their own copy or didn't value copy or didn't know what good copy looked like before the whole AI noise came about. So we didn't wanna work for them or we weren't working for them anyway. So I don't feel like we've lost much.

other [00:17:00] than, the effect on people's mental health has got worse.

Radim: there is an element, as you said, of irresponsibility from people who write the articles. You can give them the benefit of the doubt because most of the time they're just working out what the hell is going on, and they haven't got that 5,000 lifetimes,of experience and reflection and looking at this, because you said, maybe I'm naive.

When I look at some of these articles, they're showing up right now because it has showed up that you need to potentially change, adapt, or you might be out of a job because it's not ultimately things to ai, it's because of change. The change happens all the time, regardless. And I've been having wonderful conversation with loads of people on this podcast about like how this change manifest itself in a different way.

 How did it manifest itself before? And actually how we potentially got so much better outcome because of it. [00:18:00] Because it would've been lovely to do the one thing that you love over and over every day. How freaking quickly would you get bored? Because I'm from the group of people that I can't sit still.

if the one thing I've done yesterday looks exactly the same today, I need to change, I need to look somewhere else. I need to find my, I would call it my nosiness, my curiosity. okay, what is that? what is, what dopamine can I get out of this? Because ultimately, that's what moves us forward.

And I believe the people who are finding their hard to a, adapt to the change right now will, understand what's going on. Hopefully they want the change to actually happen because it will ultimately give us a progress. It give us ideas of like how we can grow and develop, because the work that you do now as a tone of voice specialist is part of years of change, years of development, years of evolution.

Vikki Ross: I think. brands have always found a way to talk. and that might have changed more [00:19:00] often, maybe per campaign. I think that there are more specialists in it rather than a whole agency. this is the client agency relationship changing, as well, But there might have been an agency that was responsible for how a brand showed up. and that's visually and verbally, but, yeah, there are a lot more jobs. I see. looking for a head of voice or,a voice specialist. Yeah.

Radim: how I would perceive the history of brand voice would be more of sort of individual headlines that would create these spikes. It's like,this is how we are trying to get your attention so you can notice our product. But I wouldn't necessarily not think that was unified document of this is what we say, this is how we look.

'cause social even didn't exist back then either.

Vikki Ross: Yeah, you're right. And also just filtering the voice through everything. So calling the terms and conditions, something that's more in line with the tone of voice and having copy on packaging,saying, open me or something. Yeah. that was all, non-existent or quite rare. So yes, you're right.

Radim: it's interesting because, yeah, with the [00:20:00] social, with what I would call like the fragmented marketing application where you've got so many different micro channels, making sure that brand speaks to almost everyone and anyone properly all the time.

'cause ultimately brand exists because They wanna manufacture this, that design, manufacture, sell. But marketing is such a heavy department now because if you haven't got it, ultimately you've really being left behind and people can make their own mind up about what you are rather than you telling them.

Vikki Ross: Yeah. And also I think as a professional working in these departments and brands, you'll have the business map of what's happening and where you're going. But when you come to express yourself and tell anyone what you're up to, you need something that has defined you, that gives you something to hang onto, and that gives the audience something to go on that helps you.

Express yourself. I didn't really express myself very well or clearly then, but I just [00:21:00] think you can't, every time you wanna say something, wonder, how am I gonna say it today? and then obviously there's the whole brand history, so you need to fall back on something that exists and run with the consistency.

'cause that's what's, making somebody recognize you as well. so yeah, I think that branding is there is here to stay, which seems like such a immature, ill-informed thing to say, like it's obvious. But the concern is that going back to ai, if copywriters are out of jobs,I don't believe that they are all out of jobs because of ai.

 There are millions and zillions of brands in the world that all need to say something at some point and they'll need a copywriter to help them say it in the right way. 

Radim: you mentioned one word quite a few times already, it's an adjective and it's,an outcome which is always so hard to find. And the word is simple

Vikki Ross: to find simplicity. We dream about simplicity and sometimes we think that simplicity is just because you don't put enough in, then therefore you make it minimal and simple.

Radim: But would you agree [00:22:00] that simplicity is very much an outcome of reduction and just prodding, try and testing and working out actually what it is? Because every road I've ever seen that sort of ended up with simple

was a long one. 

Vikki Ross: Yeah, and

it's actually, it's been a key thought for me in a way that I've been working. More recently, I found that big companies are coming to me to help them find their voice and. They have lots of people all writing something every day, and they're not always able to hire a copywriter because it might just be, a quick note about some work going on in the office, but it's coming from internal comms, so they wanna put it together quickly.

You're not gonna necessarily, unless you've got a copywriter on the team commission, a freelancer to write a paragraph. and so I found that these thousands and thousands of people, they're all writing all [00:23:00] different sorts of communications in their own voice. The brand comes, the brand team comes to me and says, we want a voice for everyone to write to.

And it's become obvious that in a situation like that, they're not looking for as much as I'd love to do it, some sexy, gorgeous, glossy, indulgent brand book with guidelines on how to execute a voice with loads of examples. They haven't got time to go through that. They need something that's really.

Simple and quick and easy to digest. So really they're looking for,my last client said, I just need a list of instructions. And so that was how I wrote the last guidelines that I wrote for them. And it doesn't mean that it's not something I'm proud of, and it's not creatively put together. it just means that it's going to be adopted really easily and everyone's gonna get on board really quickly because presenting tone of voice guidelines to people, I always think that [00:24:00] copywriters rarely need guidelines.

If you tell them what voice you wanna write in, they know what that means. So you're really writing guidelines for non copywriters, and they need to understand 'em quickly. So the in instructions are more effective than, paragraphs of descriptions,the how rather than the what.

Radim: This is interesting. so you mentioned a few things that I wrote down and you said there's hundreds of people writing something and then there's this overarching sort of big voice that said, big companies come to me to find their voice. And then you said, for those non copywriters, write instructions.

So it's almost like you write in a prompt for the human to execute in a way. Obviously like it, it's still giving the direction. And when you think about it, the people who are in those marketing departments writing. Hopefully, according to your instructions, there will ultimately always be a person or a designer or creative or writer that want to inject that little sort of unique voice within the, I don't wanna call it machine, but within the [00:25:00] organization or within the brand.

 They wanna say, Hey,I'm thinking this way, I would like to add my addition. I would like to add my two pens to this. I would like to be heard and seen, even though it's counterproductive, so how do you see those hundreds of little voices working towards one unified brand voice?

And how do you find potentially some freedom of expression 

Vikki Ross: I try to make the guidelines as, practical and,achievable as possible so that everyone feels like, oh yeah, I can write in this way.

And I generally find people are really excited by it and I think it's maybe a part of the process that gets everybody on board. Earlier this year I created a voice for JLR.

So Jaguar, land Rover have rebranded as JLR and they've got thousands of people in the company and they're all writing and they want one voice. and I spoke to, I dunno. Maybe a hundred people as [00:26:00] part of the process. So people in all different parts of the company doing all different things in all different parts of the world.

when I asked them to describe what they wanted the voice to be, they every single person on every single call said the same one word. And so then I was in no doubt as to what the word to describe their voice would be. I added to it and gave it some more, 'cause they needed something else to go on.

But it meant that they were all already on board with who and what their brand could and should be. There was nobody I needed to win over 'cause they'd all said the same thing when I presented it back to them. They all felt like they had their say and they'd been part of this process. So they were excited to then start writing in that voice because we'd come up with it to,I was gonna say, we'd come up with it together.

they did it really, I just wrote it down.

Radim: What was the word?

Vikki Ross: I can't tell you.

Radim: I'm so sorry to ask. See, I'm nosy. that's why I'm

Vikki Ross: Well, no, this is the problem with my job, right? I can't show anyone what I do. it's amazing that I [00:27:00] get any work 'cause I cannot show, all of my guidelines are under NDAI envy the,

people in our industry that are able to share guidelines that they've worked on. 'cause there are quite a few companies that do let them go out.

Monzo even put them on their consumer facing website. But yeah, I haven't worked with anyone where I've been able to publish them. so unfortunately, yeah, they all, I have to just keep them close to my heart.

Radim: Yeah. Okay. we can all imagine the word, but I think there's one thing you just said, and I remember that was a conversation we had last time. I, you said that after you let Sky, you had lots of working relationships with people who. Have taken you with them wherever you go. And in a highly visual 24 7 LinkedIn bragging sort of society culture, whatever you wanna call it.

I think a lot of people still believe that you have to show your work to get work and there's a per in it because you are busy as you've ever been, and you don't, you can't even show any work and you realize it's not [00:28:00] really what that is about. it's nice to see it out there and to see it's working because ultimately that's our job.

And you see sometimes people just saying they complain about the fact that, I can't you any work 'cause it's under NDA and therefore I'm not getting any new work. And I'm like, you don't have an NDA problem, you've got new business strategy problem. this is where do things go?

 Like it's just, we find a model that just works with the existing relationships because it was ultimately Drayton Bird in one of your copy cab talks, 

I love the man. I love that talk.

Vikki Ross: Do you know he's 89? I saw him post on LinkedIn the other day.

Radim: he said in his talk, everyone's obsessed about new business. There is a lot more business in the connections you already have with the clients you already have. It's just like, how do you guide them to that next evolution?

Like finding that way because it's messy, lo and long and tricky to get new business, but where when you double down and you become that trusted consultant or that trusted voice and trusted guide and taking the brand on a journey where they can grow and [00:29:00] evolve, you have find yourself a client for life.

And that's, I think that's the best part of it.

Vikki Ross: Yeah. Although there's a few things that you said that,probably interesting for me to pick up on what, or I said this bit, the bit about not being able to show my work. I don't think I'd show it even if I could, to be honest. It's just not like me to, Show off, Like anytime. I haven't done a podcast recording like this for a couple of years now 'cause I just got all I thought everyone's heard enough from me, I don't need to do this anymore.

And I've only just started doing interviews again and then, you get people saying, do you mind re-sharing the interview you did with us on, LinkedIn? And I find it really embarrassing. I love talking about. Supporting other people, but to be all like, look what I did. I just, I'm not, this is nothing on anyone else.

By the way, I'm glad that people do share their work 'cause then I get to see it. 'cause I'm nosy, but I just feel it's very British. I think of me to be so embarrassed to share my work. And then the other thing is the contacts that you said about Yes, I did say that when we last spoke, and that is how I've worked with so many more, TV [00:30:00] or entertainment brands because most people who've worked at Sky go onto another entertainment brand and they've taken me with them.

 But Jaguar, land Rover and Formula E, they're, they are not, jobs that I got through people that I knew. in the TV world or any world. They,Jaguar Land Rover, they came to me because they'd seen me talking about how car brands, I think car brands could do better at advertising. and I'd said that quite a lot on social media and.

I didn't think any car brand would take any notice of what I've got to say, but JLR did. And, we've been working together on enough for a couple of years now and I created The Voice last year for, or a new voice for Range Rover Defender, discovery and Jaguar. So all their cars, or car brand, sorry.

and do you know what it was? It was just a category I never thought I would work in or thought I would like working in. And I loved it and I think it told me that maybe as comfortable [00:31:00] as I was in the entertainment category and as excited as I am about TV and film, having a challenge, is good for you.

And I've probably did some of my best work with them.

Radim: Well, this is the interesting equation you just mentioned because you said, I don't really show my work, and even if I could, I wouldn't show it. But what you do is your generosity because you always. Talk about other people's work. you always point out like how things could be better.

And this is ultimately how you show up in the world because it's from a place of care, from a place of soul, and from a place of interest of like, how can you push this all together a little bit further? Because you are very active. you post and obviously you share and you, and you add your voice.

And I think that's how ultimately you show other people how you think and what you can bring to the table. Because let's be honest, lots of people can design, lots of people can write, lots of people can do lots of things. But who are you gonna sit next to at a dinner table is the person that you want to learn something [00:32:00] from.

So you're gonna go Hey, I'm here for you because I can learn something from you. So I think your strategy. If it's that strategy or if you, your nosiness, your intrigue and your generosity is ultimately what you put out there because I told you before our conversation because you were my second guest on my podcast and we've backtracking nearly to two years ago, we recorded this first episode.

And thank you for being back if you have taken a sabbatical from, these conversations.

Vikki Ross: Well, I like you. That's different. I'm, I was happy to come back and talk to you.

Radim: Oh, thank you. That's a nice compliment. and I totally forgot my question.

Vikki Ross: Sorry, I interrupted. strategy. I'm gonna interrupt you. I'm gonna carry on interrupting you. So yeah, you say about my strategy every week is to not be on social media as much as I am and every week I fail. because I think my nosiness keeps me on LinkedIn 'cause I wanna see what everyone's up to.

And then just in this. The AI noise. I think I've gone even harder on supporting others and sharing their work because I just think [00:33:00] why not? It takes nothing to help somebody else. I do it because I genuinely care about the craft.

and I want copywriters to stay valued and employed. And so if I can do anything to help in that regard, and that means being on social media all the time, then I absolutely will. So yeah, it's not a strategy, it's just, I wanna, I think I said this when we last spoke. I just like to see what's going on and I like to share stuff.

I work on my own. Social media is my place to talk to people. But yeah, I do, I am concerned every day that I post too much.

Radim: what you post likely is of value. luckily you're not, of a question of a character trying to justify your existence on LinkedIn or following a template or trying to gain followers. So you can tell other followers how to gain followers. But again, it's out there, there's a shape, there's a template and people can do whatever they want with it.

But ultimately, what is the outcome would you wanna bring to it? Because. Everything's all said and done. When you switch it off, it's what you've created elsewhere. When you own the traffic, when you own your content, when you own your [00:34:00] thinking, your creativity, that that's what matters.

So, I regain my thought because what you were talking about earlier, it's like it was giving people's space to be seen through your, let's say through your own channel just to get people to see whatever's. Because is that generosity is what makes you be seen visible and appreciated by others.

I think it's just showing that you're interested. I think people will wanna work with you if you're interested in what you do. If you don't show an interest and maybe you're not interested, I suppose you're not gonna want to work with somebody who always talks about what they had for lunch, unless you're.

Vikki Ross: In a restaurant, So that's as if I've had any strategy on social media. It's not to talk about my personal life, I just don't think, I make fun of my husband or I used to on Twitter when Twitter was fun. But, I don't talk about, yeah, what I had for lunch or how much sleep I got, which isn't very much at the moment if anyone's interested.

There you go. a, a, a sneak peek into my life. But the other thing is, I worked with Twitter a [00:35:00] couple of years ago when it was still wonderful Twitter and not what it is now. And I remember them very clearly saying social media is meant to be social. And I've just always kept that. However, social media has changed into what it is now, which isn't always a nice place, I still keep in mind that it's a place to be social.

So if I post anything and anyone comments, I will always reply. Or as much as I can, I'll reply, again, 'cause I work by myself and I haven't got anyone to talk to unless I do it online. I think it's just really nice to have all these relationships with people. Some people I might never meet. yeah,that I, I keep saying I don't have a strategy, but I suppose there are a few strategies in there that I've mentioned.

Radim: I think that was the last sort of topic of our conversation you said, and I've got successful career with no strategy and I think. Despite a popular belief, or experiences by other people. You don't have to have every single step outlined, like knowing where you're going. But you [00:36:00] mentioned Twitter, which is now something completely different

in the name and existence.

I'm trying to think like the role of brands in a highly polarizing world that the algorithms are blitzing in any kind of big bit of humanity, because conversations would have benefited from a wider lens from actually open conversations because ultimately, even though most of.

Those 2, 3, 4 sides, whatever you wanna see, subsets of movements. Most of the time we want mostly the same things from life, which just sometimes we are just directed by the voice there. Potentially it's just a bit louder because there's other benefit behind it.

So without making it too heavy, how do brands slot into this and potentially adjust their voice or, work in that. Such a sort of fragmented world that we've got now. Because a minute ago I talked about fragmented marketing, right? There's a lot of places to put a voice, but now we put it on a fragmented [00:37:00] society, or fractured society, shall I say, and it becomes something potentially even, bigger and more complicated.

Vikki Ross: I think that given the climate, there is a huge opportunity for brands to lighten up and entertain the world. and I don't just mean entertainment brands. I think, speaking from an advertising point of view, this is just, this is advertising. It used to be fun. Let's have fun. not every.

Category can do that or should do that, but in the main, if we're talking about, people's holidays or shopping or whatever, like, let's keep it light. when I work with a client and they say to me, what do you think of our social channels? And I have a look around and they're on Twitter, sorry, X now I think really in this, you're still on X.

Like, is that where you wanna be? but you said, let's not get too heavy or serious. So I'll just say this and then we won't go into it, But if you look into the background of what most brands are up [00:38:00] to, you could find something wrong somewhere. so I think, just focusing on how they talk on social is probably the least of their worries.

Vikki Ross: but yes, on, on the surface level and for my job, I think there's. every brand should have a personality, that doesn't mean fun or funny, but they have to have a personality to know how to express themselves and they should say something, and this is the rule. In any type of communication, they should say something that's really interesting.

And if it's right for the brand. entertaining and exciting too.

Radim: Would you say with those sort of micro trends, when you get, viral moments, with whoever shows up in ibi a in a Lego head and everyone goes around it, How much do you agree and disagree with this because, okay, I don't need to, I don't need to finish my

Vikki Ross: no.

Yeah, I posted about this just yesterday actually, 'cause I listened to a really interesting episode on the day one FM podcast about, brands connecting with culture, and how that phrase is mistaken [00:39:00] on far to a regular, basis. I think a lot of brands thinking that connecting with culture should mean they connect with whatever is.

Hot right now. so the Lego head guy and IBI or whatever it is, and it's just not right for every brand to jump on every trend. Also, more often than not, they're late to do it anyway, which just is embarrassing, so just leave it. but if it's already embedded into your personality that you are the sort of brands that A, does play on viral trends and B has something to say about Taylor Swift getting engaged, I dunno if you're a jewelry brand, maybe,then go for it.

But it has, for me, in my opinion, it has to be what's right for the brand, not what's right for the social media trend in that moment. That is not a strategy. it's not a, it's not gonna bring you long term success,and results. So just concentrate on who you are and what you do and how you say it, rather than what's going on online and whether you can [00:40:00] jump on that bandwagon or not.

Radim: when you don't have a strategy of who you are, what you say, what you're going to do and what you're not going to do. If you remember, once upon a time, we had every brand was celebrating the world wave for single people for what day, for, kittens and.

Coffee cups or whatever. I can't, I can't remember any of this, but it was like, if you haven't got a plan, you're gonna be talking about all of these things because those are the only sort of things you can hang on, and kind of used as a sort of pro to create content. 'cause when you know what you want to do and what you wanna say, then you stick with it.

Would you say that we are chasing that sort of, almost like the hits of dopamine in favor of damaging long-term, strategy or long-term value.

Vikki Ross: Yeah, absolutely. I think social media, is creating anxiety not just in individuals, but now in brands. And they think that they have to get this quick hit to have any success, but it's just, it's not gonna land with all of your customers. you've probably got a really wide range of customers of, different ages, and [00:41:00] not everyone is chronically online.

They might not know what this trend is that you are buying into or jumping on. So the whatever you're communicating is not gonna, mean anything to them. So that's damaging in the long run. But going more into your world on the visual side of things and talking about how brands react when brands change their logos to support a cause, I think most people would be off the mind that, show me that you support a cause. Don't tell me for a start. 'cause it's all about actions, not words. don't tell anyone I said that. Now I'm joking. A copywriter saying it's not about words. But, yeah, every black History month or pride, you, if you keep changing your logo to show all the causes that you support, what is your logo?

Radim: Very good question. it's a very good question. And also, you want everyone to support every cause, but then do you really support every cause? Because ultimately when you think, let's say charity has been supported by a number of retailers, a number of companies, they have a relationship. that there's a sort of feedback [00:42:00] between the two.

And obviously they're working together on partnerships, there's activations, there's experiences, there's things to actually make sure that that course seems genuine because putting the ribbon, just amending your logo of changing the colors. sometimes it look, it looks nice with the rainbow, but as you said, is it just a surface level, signaling rather than really going down and actually supporting the course.

It's a tricky world because the marketing department has to get it right whilst the manufacturing of whatever sales and logistics working on their bit, because there's a lot of responsibility and to change behaviors, actions, beliefs. It goes way beyond that. And I'm like, how would you do that?

Because that feels

heavy

Vikki Ross: Absolutely. And then I think it's a bigger discussion as to how much a brand should be involved in, things that are going on in the world. And, probably we're running out of time, but the short answer is there's an opportunity. But, I mean that in the positive sense of the word, not in the, or there's an [00:43:00] opportunity for us to jump in on something and also the minute you stop.

 Showing your support for something, does that mean that you don't support it anymore? So what do they do next? Because if they don't do anything, then where's the value in what they did in the first place? Or with logos that have rainbows in them. So when Pride month ends, you then change your logo back.

So it's like, right. We don't support Pride anymore. it's, this is a different podcast. I think

 in my opinion, we got fragmented world and it's gonna get even more fragmented because the way things going. yeah. How do you try to do this from a point of brand, which again, it's bit like creating or creating a visual work.

Radim: 50% of people will not like your brand or don't use your brand, or don't buy your brand, but you want to speak to those people potentially 'cause they can become a customer.

Vikki Ross: so we started this conversation with a little bit of a hint of talking about headlines that AI couldn't write.

Radim: If you were to inspire, that's a big word to say, but if you were to instate hope in human [00:44:00] copywriting. You used the word simplicity as one of the things, how would you encourage people to look further than they're looking now in a way to just be more human in a time of ai.

Vikki Ross: I think we've just gotta remember that we will always be human and AI will never be human. And so it will never be able to talk to another human, in a way that will be truly meaningful to someone. yes, it can, it can tell them something interesting, although that's debatable because you have to fact check what it comes out with.

but if we want to make a difference in people's lives, then we have to respect what goes on in people's lives and talk to the truth of that. And AI can only do that at a surface level. so yeah, I think everyone needs to calm down on, on whether AI is good or not. It is good. It's fine. it's good enough, but who wants good enough?

Radim: especially when you look at the fact when they say, currently it's got the mind of a [00:45:00] college student or whatever their level, they say it's as intelligent as that. obviously I'm not, I'm not cheapening the genius or I'm not doubting the genius of certain teenagers to write amazing copy, but 

You create, you know, visual campaigns or you know, write, you create art because it's a response to experience, response to society's response to how you feel about certain things. And that informs your decisions, influences, informs, and inspires. And I think with ai, it's just like a powerful calculator.

It regurgitates what you put in it. But if it's got the knowledge of a student with all sorts of conflicting informations, what you're gonna get out is just a conflicting student ideas. There's so many good uses of AI because there's a practicality.

my, my reason why I can do so many different things right now as a creative is because of the help of AI and automation because it's helped me save time so I can do things that actually no excite me, [00:46:00] but I would never think that, you should use it for creative work because ultimately you would put yourself out of your own job because you would think that's what you do.

Yeah, I think that there might be a risk of people who listen to creatives saying, we create because we love what we do and what we do comes from within. And it's something that we feel and it comes from our heart. And that might seem like creativity is some sort of vanity job for us. But actually in the consumer world, if you're trying to appeal to a consumer to buy something or do something, you need to appeal to their heart as well. AI doesn't have a heart, so it can't do that.

Vicki, I don't think we can do any better than that right now. Thank you so much for coming back and speaking to me again. I treasure our conversations. I love what you do, inspiring people. Be generous the way you are because you're making a a better place,

Vikki Ross: Oh, I feel the same about you. [00:47:00] Thank you so much for having me back. I love what you do too. I really enjoyed seeing you again. let's not leave it two years.

Radim: thank you.

 Thank you for listening to this episode of Daring Creativity Podcast I'd love to know your thoughts questions and suggestions So please get in touch via the email in the show notes or social channels This episode was produced and presented by me Rad Malid The audio production was done by Neil Mackay from 7 million Bucks Podcast Thank you and I hope to see you on the next episode [00:48:00]