Pablo Honey, Head of Design at Automattic (WordPress), shares his extraordinary journey from a small Galician village with "more cows than people" to leading design teams across 23 countries. Born in Spain but raised in Switzerland, Pablo embodies the "Third Culture Kid" experience—never quite fitting into traditional boxes but finding strength in the spaces between.

His path began with award-winning short stories about escapism, led him through Flash festivals in Barcelona, three years working in restaurants while building his design career, and ultimately to prestigious roles at RGA New York working on Nike campaigns. Now managing 80 designers remotely, Pablo reflects on how his multicultural background, sensitivity to overwhelm, and philosophy of "ruthless hospitality" shape his creative leadership.

Key Takeaways

• Embrace the in-between spaces - Not fitting perfectly into any category can become your greatest creative advantage and unique perspective
• Third Culture Kid identity - Growing up between cultures creates rich, diverse thinking but requires learning to navigate belonging and identity challenges
• Moving forward vs. present moment - Balance the drive for "what's next" with appreciation for current achievements to avoid constant restlessness
• Success is seasonal - Your definition of success will evolve from portfolio pieces to financial goals to human connections as you mature
• Ruthless hospitality matters - Treating design as an experience of guiding people through communication applies restaurant service principles to creative work
• Humble beginnings fuel ambition - Coming from no creative references or higher education can motivate you to work harder and inspire others
• Sensitivity as strength - Being overwhelmed by stimuli and visual noise can enhance learning speed and ability to see details others miss
• Remote leadership requires kindness - Managing distributed teams across languages and cultures succeeds through choosing gracious, kind people over just skilled ones
• Home is a state of mind - When you've lived in multiple places, home becomes where your feet are rather than a fixed location
• Craft vs. management tension - Even as a leader, maintaining hands-on creative work keeps you connected to the core of what you love
• Escapism drives creativity - Early writing about breaking free from constraints often reflects deeper desires for creative and geographic movement
• Technology as life-changer - A single Flash presentation at a festival can completely redirect your career path and geographic location

Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic

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[00:00:00] 

Pablo Honey: Success is such a tricky concept, and you're right and agree that, it means different things, to different people. The more I talk with friends and family even, whatever it means for them, it changes over time. So at an any given time of my career, maybe, having or creating a project for my portfolio that was success.

So the creative endeavor was success. some other times was,certain financial threshold. other times it's really connecting to people or reconnecting with friends and family. It really [00:01:00] changes for me. It has changed and it keeps changing every maybe season.  

Welcome to the Daring Creativity Podcast, a show about daring to forever explore creativity that isn't about chasing shiny perfection. It's about showing up with all your doubts and imperfections and making them count. It's about becoming more of who you already are. My name is Radim Malinic. I'm a designer, author, and eternally curious human being.

I am talking to a broad range of guests who share their stories of small actions that sparked lifetime discoveries, taking one step towards the thing that made them feel most alive. 

Let me begin this episode with a question. Are you ready to discover what happens when you dare to create?

 today I'm talking to Pablo Honey. [00:02:00] He's a designer, creative director and educator. Born in Galicia, raised in Switzerland. He's also resided in Barcelona and now New York City. For over two decades, he's been working for fortune hundred companies and startups. From traditional media to emerging technologies in constant flux.

In our conversation, he talks about his award-winning short stories about escapism, about early pursuits of Adobe Flash, how he spent three years working in restaurants while building his design career, which ultimately led him to prestigious roles and campaigns. Pablo also reflects on his multicultural background sensitivity to overwhelm 

And philosophy of ruthless hospitality that shaped his creative leadership. It's my pleasure to welcome Pablo honey.

Radim: Hey Pablo, how you doing?

Pablo Honey: How are you excited to be here? 

Radim: So, for those who have [00:03:00] may never heard of Pueblo Honey, How would you describe yourself?

Pablo Honey: my name is Pablo Honey, and if we go through the traditional professional roles, I suppose. I'm a designer, creative director and currently head of design at Automatic, the makers of WordPress and other creative tools, to be on the web. I work in between multiple disciplines of design, from technology to branding and other things in between.

Though I'm not sure, I'm all of those things. it's just what I do. I'm just a human, like everyone full of fears and curiosities and what defines more who I am, I guess, is traveling in between those roles and concepts. so sometimes I'm more of a designer. some other times I'm more a creative, others, a manager, an artist, and so on. 

Radim: I love the [00:04:00] way that you say I'm a human, full of fears and curiosity because you're already setting the bar in the place where I love these conversations to be. You know, they're human conversations because as you said, like whatever you do defines you at the time when you do it.

But after all, we are human trying to sort of make these dots join and make some sort of sense of it and make a journey. Where did it all start? Because you were born in Galicia, but you were raised in Switzerland. whenever I see your output, whenever I see what you do, I feel like Switzerland has had very big impact on what you, become creatively.

Am I have I got it right.

Pablo Honey: Very much. so I was born in this region, in the northwest of Spain that historically has been, quite poor. So people migrated out. they were migrating out before the second war, mainly to the Americas. and after the second War, they were moving up to rebuilding Europe. [00:05:00] And my parents migrated in the last wave of that, migration in this case, to Switzerland.

And that's where I grew up. it was 10 years, of happy childhood, and so on, surrounded by things that I only recognized much later in my career. When looking back, even traveling back to Switzerland, I was recognizing a lot of things that I. Loved, architecture, typography, general design and books and signage and so on.

And I did, realized, much later how much of a impact that childhood surrounded by all,good design, how that affected my understanding of the profession Later on. 

Radim: what you're describing is very much formative years. Like you are at that time a sponge like as [00:06:00] you said, almost like a subconscious sponge.

You know, you picked up on another things that made sense a lot later. So what was the age and how was the surrounding, 

Pablo Honey: I moved as a baby when I was a few months, in, and, was in, in burn the capital of Switzerland until I was 10. a little bit above, 10. So it was, 10 years of being the sponge of design and design culture. Again, you're not aware when you're a kid, but then, when you are older and follow this path and this profession, you start to self-identify with certain approach and certain sensibility for, creativity and design. 

Radim: I'm just trying to find out concoction of these influences. 'cause obviously you've got your roots, you've got your Spanish roots, you're in Switzerland. And you are on a trajectory to become a, creative, curious human, designer creative director.

[00:07:00] So I'm trying to find the ideas of what was the initials of, of the creative spark.

Pablo Honey: You know, this has been a theme for my entire life. there's this concept that maybe you've heard of, called Third Culture Kit, which is basically, this state of mind of people who were born in one place, but were raised in a different culture and they live in between those. And there's almost like a limbo space where like they develop their own, which is a mix of both.

 In my case, it's even a little bit more drastic because. Beyond that, duality of Spain or Galicia and Switzerland. Then I moved into different places. I lived in Barcelona many years, before moving to New York City where I've been 12 years. New York City has been actually the longest I've been in a place.

So there's all these, tensions in between cultures that ultimately [00:08:00] have, formed, my own profile, my own way of thinking and my own way of being. But it has to be honest with you being always. a challenge too because I was too Spanish to be a Swiss and I was too Swiss to be a Spanish, and I was too gian to be, in Barcelona.

And I am too Spanish to be in New York City. Translated to disciplines and perhaps we get to it, but, I also understand the profession of design, in less of, boxes and more in between. so I find also myself, two interactive for the graphic designers, two graphic designer for interactive, folks.

And it's quite funny how, I enjoy being in between, but also has been a challenge belonging to groups, [00:09:00] cultures, and. Concepts.

Radim: I love how this is all making sense now. you and I have met a couple of times. We had conversations, but I've never heard of the term third culture kid. Would you describe then, being to Spanish, to be Swiss, be to Swiss, to be Spanish, to do Gian, to be in Barcelona to a certain degree matters to some people.

And to a certain degree it's a benefit.it's a gift of life because some people are just too catalan to be Catalan, don't wanna stay Catalan. Some people are just basically hardcore New York. They will always stay hardcore New York.

But I think the way you describe yourself, like the curious human that is, hovering over these different disciplines. It makes sense because I feel that what you're describing here is definitely a gift of life. it's not always a smooth sailing thinking, where is home?

Where is my friends? Where is my tribe? where do I belong? Or where do I fit in? But in a way has given you what I'm sensing [00:10:00] so far, this incredible gift of actually being a curious, human being that transcends these disciplines into something that other people wouldn't potentially have done it.

I love how you described it like two to this for that and two this for that. Because I don't think you feel that anymore, do you? Because you're not, you know, 10, 20, 25 anymore, because it doesn't really matter what people think, right?

Pablo Honey: I appreciate you, you say it elegantly that I'm not like, so young anymore and I, Yeah.

I'm not really, so it doesn't matter too much now. And I do agree with you fully that I appreciate these life experiences as something that are part of me. And it allows me to have perhaps a diverse set of perspectives or a little bit of richness in the thinking and making.

I do embrace it and, and so on, but it hasn't been smooth. And especially when you [00:11:00] are, Looking for your own identity and forming who you are, what you want to do, and so on. It's, challenging, to not, fully belong to anything, any group. but it is something that I appreciate today.

Radim: I'm gonna try to trace a creativity in your life because there's a sort of culture of mixture of all sorts influences dissonances and conflicts and fictions.

Pablo Honey: Where does creativity come into this? I don't know really. It's been a strange experience and case, I suppose I come from a very humble background. They had to migrate, one generation back. They were very poor. so there were no references for me to hold onto in for this creative career or, [00:12:00] develop these creative curiosities. There were no books at my parents' house.

Fast forward, I'm obsessed with books now,to an extreme case. I love reading. I love being surrounded by books and so on. No one in my family went to, higher education. So I was the first one going to college in my entire lineage, which was a little bit dizzy, to be honest with you.

And not having these references, invite me today to.

actually speak up a little bit more and being a little bit more public to see if there's someone out there, maybe in a very small village, like the one that I come from that can maybe hear us, talking and, relate to and just, have a little bit of a push forward, for them to pursue their curiosities.

I really don't know where mine comes [00:13:00] from. Really. I was a writer as a teenager. I would write a lot, I would read a lot. I was, interested in books and magazines. I was, back in Galicia, I was, we were, living in a very small village. Like there are, maybe, there are 50 people living there, there are more cows than people.

And I was subscribing to magazines from New York City, mainly design and creative magazines. One from the School of Visual Arts, how magazine and so on. And now I laugh about it because, someone was sending these magazines to this,little village in Galicia. so I had this curiosities all the time about film.

Films and,stories and that, I'm not sure where they come from really because I didn't have that, that those references at home.

Radim: it's really interesting that in a village where there's more cows than [00:14:00] people, you find your way of escapism and started looking for what might be out there in the world. Because sometimes we hope that there's a sort of societal influence or there's, someone who will show us the path or even try to emulate someone trying to be, as good as someone like to show us the ways.

But you talk about school of visual arts. And the loop, mostly the full circle, is that what, no, you actually ended up working for School of visual Arts later, which is a beautiful full circle. when you say you were the first person from your lineage to go into college, did you have a pushback or did you have a support or how did that feel?

Because the reason why I ask this, because there's often people on this, on the show, talking about almost come go going against the tide. Like people are not always happy for someone to sort of go, Hey, don't do this thing. because people come up with their own and have life problems at this situation, go Hey, you gonna do this?

Pablo Honey: Are you sure? Because to them, security looked a [00:15:00] lot different to, the unknown as presented. So how was it for you? Did you have that support? Full support. I was very lucky to have the parents and the family, I have because they had this vision without knowing, the to support?

me in this, journey. So they were fully supportive of me going to college,and doing what I've done later. Even just quitting my job in Alicia and moving to Barcelona without a job.

And they were super, super supportive despite the pain of them seeing again, someone in their, lineage moving out, right, migrating out. that was a little bit painful, especially for my dad, because they, that generation, was dreaming of coming back home and like developing a life there without their, their kids to, needing to move [00:16:00] out.

But the,I had a lot of, support from my family,beyond, their understanding. And I, again, I celebrate this, duality I've experienced and I have from this esoteric rural, context to this modernist, fast city of New York City. And I try to embrace both. and both are where formative and are part of, who I am and how I understand, the world and even the,profession. 

Radim: You said you were a writer in your teenage years. Do you remember what stories you were writing? What was it? What was the narrative that you were putting together? Was it escapism? Was it projections? What did you write about?

Pablo Honey: Both were about?

escaping actually. So I had,I had, and I say both because I wrote a lot of things, but specifically two short [00:17:00] stories were published. when I was a teenager. They were part of a contest and they made it to be finalist. And then they were published in subsequent books and,which I was very happy about.

And that, inspired me to perhaps pursue a writer career. I realize as you speak that both stories are about es escapism, just,being discomfort with,staying boxed.

Radim: I think what have you described so far? It all makes perfect sense. that those stories were reflection potentially of the subconscious trying to come out and go, there's something else waiting. So, and again, you were award-winning for a very young age, now being chosen to have your stories published.

that's remarkable when you think about it. just because the longing is pushing out, it started something. So I have to ask you from creative side of things, do you remember the very first thing that you ever designed? 

 [00:18:00] was that first breadcrumb that you picked up and go you know what, this is quite interesting. I wanna do more of this.

Pablo Honey: It is funny that you ask this because I've been in a recent journey of, it's almost like a, an archeologic, journey of compiling all my work over 2 25 years. And as I'm compiling all that work and archiving all that work, I found this.

very first, logo that I designed like ages ago. And I see today so many mistakes ma made, but I still like it.

There's something fresh about it. there's something. Unapologetic about it. And, you know, without knowing even there's a lot of that connection with Switzerland, there's a bit of Vin CRL in it, and so on. So, I [00:19:00] look at it, I might actually fix it a little bit just for, self-indulgence I suppose, but, I was very surprised to, to see it and still like it today. 

Radim: Love it. Absolutely love it. I mean, I'm very impressed that you've got the very first logo still somewhere, because I'm somehow personally quite happy to have got rid of all the evidence I used to suck. or maybe I was a genius who know, who knows. But let's talk about the first logo a little bit more because.

How did you get to do that logo? Somebody has to, somebody must have asked you to do this and to do this, you must have told someone, I can do this for you. So on the concept of daring creativity, step one, how did you get your first logo? Commission?

Pablo Honey: I think I was perhaps like,first year of college and I was a little bit of a weird guy back [00:20:00] then and I was doing a lot of video experiments and I was starting to play around. video performances and things of that nature. so you can see that I was like, getting into strange places, even, with no awareness and understanding of the medium.

But in that context and as well connected to the short stories, I,I had written someone, who became a dear friend and we were friends, you know, for so long, found those stories in a library, in a local library, and realized that this, that he needed to meet this kid, that was writing this, strange stories and was doing this strange things with video.

And, he was involved in, Gian, I guess, I don't know what the translation [00:21:00] exactly is, but is a association of vets in Galicia, specifically for cows and like larger, animals. And they were creating this association and he asked me to, create some branding for it, I guess before we understood what branding was or I understood what branding was.

so that, there I go, I create this logo. Fast forward, I create this flash presentation for the whole association, which I do have a video of, and I'm a little bit embarrassed by, but it's still like pretty, fantastic to be able to. to have less constraints and, be a little bit, free with the medium back then, when I suppose the web and digital were a little bit more fun.

Radim: I mean, what a story, and I mean, what an assignment, an association for beds, you know, [00:22:00] specializing in livestock, obviously in a place where there's more cows than people on average. that makes all perfect sense. But flash, I mean. It almost feels like a sort of this Twilight zone that flash could have came caused chaos.

Riot, let everyone rip loose. I mean Flash was basically, I think invented so designers can show other designers what can you do with Flash in a way of showing of flash scales, confusing everyone, everybody else.

But flashes I think is a perfect segue because you moved to Barcelona because of Southern Festival and it was only the other day I found out that of stands for Offline Flash Fest. What was it? Offline film. Offline film. Flash, festive off, something like that. I think that's the actual definition of off.

' cause I'm thinking what a cool name. I'm like, what does it stand for? And I literally just a few days ago I was like. Oh, that's what it is. Which reminds [00:23:00] me, FITC was flash in a can. there was a lot of flash festivals and there are still festivals where flashes nowhere need to be found. So a complicated, silly segue into you moving to Barcelona because of festival called Off.

Right?

Pablo Honey: That's pretty much it. Yes. before finishing college, I already had a job at a small graphic studio, graphic design studio. You know, I had a. Regular life. I had a job. I had, you know, family, clothes, car home, whatnot. but I was still involved with this video experimentation, vj, doing video installations, interactive, installations and,and so forth, and decided to visit Barcelona to attend this, crazy event.

called Off, that a friend of us, founded Hector aso, and now is continued by Pep and I attend this festival [00:24:00] and suddenly I see this Japanese guy, on stage, Yugo Nakamura, known as Yuko. presenting these visual poems. It created in flash, interactive pieces of graphic design that were moving and reacting to input.

And it just blew my mind for some reason. You know, sometimes like something just triggers a your mind and it kind of made me move to Barcelona. So I quit my job, quit my life in Galicia, and moved to Barcelona knowing that I had to pursue something similar to what Yugo was, doing. I 

Radim: How did that go?

Pablo Honey: pretty good, I think. I moved to Barcelona without knowing anybody and so some [00:25:00] fears hitting there, but I had a very raw and. A different profile and portfolio even because I was not coming from traditional graphic design school and started to show my portfolio around really while I was working at a restaurant to survive.

So, worked at a restaurant, for about three years. even when I got a job and I had a job, I had a job at an agency and I was still working at the restaurant. So I worked for three years. I worked, every day of the week basically going between the agency and the restaurants and the weekends until the point where I got an offer to teach at the institute, of European design.

And then I had to choose, I had to choose a career and I chose, you know, design and creativity and I was teaching at, and also at the agency. And an agency that was very, [00:26:00] pioneering back then with, flash and interactivity called, w. 

Radim: Who.

Pablo Honey: So

in general it was pretty

scary to move into Barcelona without knowing anyone and so on. But then after working hard, being in the right place, having a little bit of luck, I developed my career in that agency and the work that I developed there got the attention of RGA New York and, At the peak of the agency, they made me an offer to come to this fantastic city to work for Nike, which I couldn't refuse.

So overall, that experience and of triggered a step forward and emotion, forward that brought me to this day.

Radim: So think it off, but mainly thinking to flash. I mean, flash was the enabler flash. I mean, flash produced something you saw on a screen or on a stage, fell in love with [00:27:00] it. Okay, I'm moving here. This is what I'm gonna do. And I'm a big advocate of moving to places where you dunno anyone. Because you can start the story afresh.

You know, you can actually focus on what you want to do. 'cause you don't have that stability, that security, it makes you, I think, work twice as hard. I mean, in your case, I mean you were working in a restaurant for three years. and it gives you that foundation. I think it'll be wrong to say, like it makes you a bit more hungry actually.

It makes you more determined to make it happen because you can't almost take it easy. What I really want to know is what have you learned in those three years of being in the restaurant? Because you come into, sort of famously come into contact with the public every single day. What was your role and what have you learned that you actually still use today?

Pablo Honey: first of all, I feel a little bit old as we talk about flash, but, moving from it, and without nostalgia, what I learned at the working at the restaurant, which is still my family, actually, I call [00:28:00] them my Catalan family. And every time I go to Barcelona, of course there, the whole neighborhood, is appreciative of, Of me being there and vice versa. So I have a love story with, that restaurant still today. the restaurant, by the way, is called Anos Five Brothers. it's in one of the,larger neighborhoods in Barcelona and the north of, of the city. And the two things perhaps that I learned is first of all, hospitality, being welcoming, nice to people.

Comforting. and it quite connects to the work I do in design and we should be thinking about design and how to, how you guide someone through experiences, how you make someone understand communication and so on. So walking and working with people, to have wonderful experiences. [00:29:00] So I think ruthless hospitality almost, that's one learning.

The other learning is that you gotta work hard and perhaps that's something I am still inheriting from my parents, as a mental program where you have this survival mechanism that makes you propel, forward constantly. And we have to, check on that, right? Because, it can be also, risky to only move with that survival mechanism.

but I think one thing I learned, as well is the, that you gotta work hard. And I never believed that I had,something more special than others. In fact,joining RGA from a small village, from not fancy co schools, and, it was an adventure, but, one thing [00:30:00] I had is, the hardworking spirit and that, you know, I inherited, as I said that from my parents and my family as well as from experiences like working in a restaurant.

Radim: I love that you used the words ruthless hospitality. Which makes me believe that you haven't heard of the book about hospitality, which is called Unreasonable Hospitality, right? 'cause you was ruthless. And what was really interesting 'cause the day you were doing a talk at Mocho, just a few weeks ago, I was walking, to Mocho a few hours earlier to have a lunch with, Pablo, another Pablo. And I was trying to decipher, I was, I wanted to announce my new book, do Want me talk about on this podcast, wanted to announce it. And I had this idea of a complicated cover, like sort of move in words and that kind of stuff. And I saw a Spanish copy of Unreasonable Hospitality looking at me from some bookshop on my walk.

And I'm like, yeah, it's time to keep it simple. It's time to keep it simple. this cover can just do with the words being [00:31:00] written. You don't have to do any nonsense. Like just keep it simple and unreasonable. Hospitality, which I've read not that long ago, is a fantastic book about just like how you do just that one thing so much better than anybody else.

what'd you get known for and what'd you do? So the way you said ruthless, I quite like it because that kind of takes it another step, you know, like a step forward. yes, it's meant to be ruthless. I love how all of this is sort of beautifully taken us into, you know, your new chapter with IGA, because that's a step up, right?

We are going from someone who, again, I love the fact that there's more cows than people. I don't, this is the last time we're gonna say it, but we are going through that setting, which you would not see yourself being in that position, potentially thinking I'm sure you might attest to it. I potentially thinking all of that work that's amazing is done by some other people.

There's no doubt by people like me or by a lot people like us, or people from this place only to find yourself getting an offer going, yeah, we're going to New York, [00:32:00] saying, I'm not that special. Whereas there is something special about everyone who gets the offer like this because it wouldn't, it would employ a fool or someone who's not into ruthless hospitality or into working hard kind of thinking, I'm coming to here and actually do really good work.

So. We are now in New York. RJ offers accept there's a Nike account. What happens?

Pablo Honey: I don't know. Sometimes I don't know what I'm doing and I'm just like moving forward. I, it was quite a journey. It's, RGA has been formative as well, and, I moved really quickly with my broken English and my naive view of the city and business and so on. but again, I think being curious, being hardworking, be being open as well, to learn and being a sponge constantly is, something that I [00:33:00] continue doing at RGA.

And,I was there for about six years, and moved quite, quickly through it,launching and making really, good work with other people and learning from others and also helping, a lot of, young designers to develop their own path. 

Radim: You said moving forward. Moving forward is one of the titles, one of the, working titles for the book moving forward, because this is what we do. I'm trying to sort of, sort of think about it out loud right now, but if you are not thinking about the next step, you are almost falling behind, if that makes sense.

I mean, I've learn to be careful about the words sometimes when you see other people and thinking, why don't you want to do this? Some people are just happy to be the thing they're now, and they're more happy to be doing the thing for the next 20 years because we need people like them. But I think we are aligned on this philosophy as moving forward and [00:34:00] doing it with the way that like, there is something else.

that's another thing 

 there's something about moving forward that is undeniably positive and there's also a dangerous side of it. I think you and I alongside, Stefan Tag Meister, we talked at Paradisio not so long ago about chasing the next and why we are so obsessed of it. And I do find myself relating to that dichotomy of moving forward and as well, like questioning yourself why we are yet again, thinking about what's next.

Pablo Honey: I had a lot of next already and I need to check myself when I am propelling my mind forward too much, and, thinking about the next ambition versus also enjoying the present. And, So I don't have a lesson to [00:35:00] give, but it's still like a good discussion to, to continue, because we are in today's society, we are a bit obsessed with next. 

Radim: you said you don't have a lesson to about this, but you said it's undeniably positive. I think that is the lesson. I mean, yes, we are obsessed with the next, if we are sort of impatient about it now, but having that something about the next, like seeing the two steps forward of seeing, and I call it like a driving in the dark versus, you know, seeing head for a mile like.

Moving forward could feel like driving in the dark. But when you know that there's a destination, you're getting to actually looks after that happiness because I think looks after that satisfaction. It looks after our definition of success. Because if you dunno what you're getting, it's almost like an example of like short term projects.

You know, people who have 50 short term projects will dream about one long-term project. And there's a,[00:36:00] person with a long-term project longing for 50 small projects because they don't have that dopamine head about finishing something, whereas the people with the 50 are like, this is chaos.

I need some order to this. You know? So it's just again, we on those scale of life, never really been happy with one or the other because you always want the other thing. Whereas on that mission of moving forward and thinking, 

 it actually being accountable to yourself and saying, and thinking. There's another thing that makes me excited and what is the price to pay or the price to, to give for not doing so because you said I need to check myself if I'm thinking too much ahead, and I'm like, okay, if it stops you from enjoying the present, maybe, but I see it as a gift.

Pablo Honey: It could be a gift. it's, also fun and entertaining to project yourself, somehow. But, I do try to force myself into enjoy enjoying [00:37:00] more today and the present and what I already achieved or what I did or the people I inspired perhaps,and try to appreciate both, the present and also still entertaining myself with projecting into the future.

Radim: the panel that you mentioned between you, me and Stefan was titled, are We Afraid to Be Happy? Are we bending the flatline of our own Success? And success is such a diverse, multifaceted word when you think about it. Like the success should be, should mean just one thing, but success to everybody means totally different thing.

In your case, what is your definition of success?

Pablo Honey: Wow, 

Radim: You got all the time you want.

Pablo Honey: do we have another hour? 

Radim: you can have couple if you want.

Pablo Honey: Success is such a tricky concept, [00:38:00] and you're right and agree that, it means different things, to different people. The more I talk with friends and family even, whatever it means for them, it changes over time. So at an any given time of my career, maybe, having or creating a project for my portfolio that was success.

So the creative endeavor was success. some other times was,certain financial threshold. other times it's really connecting to people or reconnecting with friends and family. It really changes for me. It has changed and it keeps changing every maybe season. And I'm currently in a phase where I am appreciating a lot, [00:39:00] connecting and reconnecting with friends.

people. That

share, certain fears and curiosities. and also people that don't agree with me. so I'm in this process of maybe coming out of my cave a little bit, because I've been quite shy and focused on my own work that I forgot that there's a world out there that I can, be part of and share a story.

as I said, maybe inspire someone who is in a small village. 

Radim: I love how you thinking about it. I love how you go through the stages because success initially could be very selfish, and then you can be a little bit generous with like, how you perceive success, and then you realize that success is totally unre reliant on other people.

Totally unre reliant on anything else because again, you've said it beautifully, so success changes. Like now there's a different sort of definition to [00:40:00] it. 

because we look for that extent of validation so much at the beginning.

And you mentioned, success would be like creating something in my portfolio and like how much we are obsessed about portfolios. so, so, so much and you're like, have you got portfolio? it doesn't really matter anymore because I believe my current definition of success outside of family life is actually being able to speak to people, actually share.

The philosophies and make sense and work on storytelling and actually do more with just sharing of our ideas and sharing of our experiences, because that's gonna give someone a lot more inspiration or potentially take someone even further beyond just a pretty piece of work that might look obsolete in 5, 10, 15 years.

You know? So I think,what we do currently as a, as an industry, especially with the circles that we are connected with, I think that is a success. I think we are really opening doors to that sort of emotional [00:41:00] sharing sort of economy, if that makes sense, by inspiring people actually going and doing something for their benefit.

 Because in your work. And every time I see her, I have to ask her like, you really managed people? No. You really manage 80 designers. Especially when I found out that in 23 countries working in 25 languages, I'm like, right, you just call yourself shy or used to be shy. How would you do all of this?

Because that's a hell of a people to do, to manage and, keep inspired, keep in check, keep them more motivated. Of course, I'm sure don't speak to every single one of them every day, but like you and I are a design leader and I wanna know how you do it.

Pablo Honey: Well, first of all, probably not excelling at it.

I'm still a craft person at heart, so there's always that tension between the management and being a craft person. at a given moment, you can find me designing an icon or, you know, what, whatnot. and [00:42:00] that might take time from managing. I'm also lucky enough that there are like other people around that, are better at It and, also, share the responsibility of guiding, such a large team.

On top of it, it is fully remote. So it,it's quite,hard at times because we, we or I miss a lot that, live connection and that life, creativity that sparks when we are together and so on. And we still try to do that, like flying, a lot over to places where we can, meet and work together.

so I think how do I do it or how do we do it? we probably need to document it, at some point. but I think the key of it is probably shared by many others that you interviewed so far, is having. Great people, and I'm lucky that there are great people at automatic, [00:43:00] not just skilled and talented, but also gracious and super kind.

it's probably like the kindest group of humans I've ever worked with. so that makes it quite easy. I think it's sometimes hard because there are a lot of silences, in a remote, culture. And, I'm also shy myself and so on. but it's much easier when you, choose, or they choose you, but, you choose the right people and the kindest people.

I.

Radim: It is a beautiful thing that you said. No, it's the kindness of even that you're surrounded by kind people. that makes everything half as difficult as it should be, which, you know, that's already a definition of success. 

You said you are shy quite a few times, but I've bet you when you did talk just, you know, in the earlier slot at, of Barcelona in front of a few thousand people, we organ [00:44:00] nerves. We don't want to be on the stage. We dream to be on the stage, but something makes, something, helps you to break for that barrier.

So would you say that your definition of shyness is connected to that cian kit in Switzerland or Swiss, like Kit and Galicia? would you say there's some sort of way of being perceived by others that makes you think that way? Because the more I think about shyness, it's, there's something else behind it.

there's more vulnerabilities and more potentially shame, but. You've made it far enough that you've broke through that no, broke through that seal. So do you have an understanding where that come from?

Pablo Honey: I certainly have two modes. One in which you've seen me on stage in front of 3000, 5,000 people, and I can breeze through it, especially if I know what I'm talking about. And [00:45:00] the story is something I can own and I understand and likely I've built and so on. So I feel confident in what I do. There's the other mode that is this kid from Galicia that grew up in Switzerland that is often, and perhaps not many people know this, but is often overwhelmed by a stimuli.

And I'm very sensitive to visual noise. Noise itself and so on. So I don't enjoy crowds, for too long because I'm constantly scanning and listening to what is happening. And if you think of it, it becomes really tiring after, some time. So I retreat myself into my silences [00:46:00] and, my meditations and, my solo times to recover from those busy instances in which I'm also happy and I enjoy being around friends and, people I learn from and so on.

But it does, force me to find these two modes, where, and, you know, I can be in a Busy environment and also I need to find those, quiet settings.

Radim: I think a lot of people, if they got this far in the conversation, which I hope they have, will find a lot of value in this because the overwhelm. Again, is another multifaceted beast. You know, it comes in all sorts of shapes and sizes. Most of it is self-inflicted. Sometimes you just can't really do anything about it because you want to be part of that conversation.

You [00:47:00] go to a place which is busy, noisy, you know, overwhelming because that where the next chapter might be. And in your case, you know, I mean, when you talk about busy place, I mean, I can only think, for example, my experience is off. You know, it's just it's a Disneyland, it's incredible, but the recovery time from that, it's just over stimuli, isn't it?

it's over stimuli. There's so much yet we need it, but like, how do you tap in into the right amount of what you can do with it? Because yeah, it's like a balance between. You know, when I'm thinking like for our gymnastics, you know, the perfect dismount, you know, you've got such. Degree of precision, you know, it's just if you get something wrong, like it, it can look not wrong.

I mean, I'm talking about this month when it comes to creative crowds, but it's just it's so to get this right. it sometimes could be out of its own, you know? I think, yeah. I envy sometimes envy the people who go to off and they there for three days. They go home on [00:48:00] Monday and I'm like, I'm already flying Saturday evening.

I can't do even that, even the third day, you know? And um,so that is that. But,I'm glad you talked about it because it, I think it's so relevant, because sometimes people dunno how to perceive the shine, shyness, perceive as sort of their own being in that busy, not busy space or with authoritative people in the room, you know, because I think things like shyness and imposter syndrome and inverse is often misunderstood.

Sometimes it's undiagnosed and unspecified and I think. Be self label sometimes in a way that it's helpful because you don't have to deal with it for quite a while and that's when the escapism comes in and potentially can be sort of creatively helpful. But then we go back in and we're like, yeah, I can't do this because, you know, I'm still shy or I'm introverted.

But because you said what was interesting, what you said, it was like, I can do the talk because I know what I'm talking about, but when I don't know the situation I'm scanning, you know, I think this is two things. you know, you can hold your peace and go hold your story [00:49:00] 'cause you're in control of it.

And then when you're not, it's like it's all up there and exhausting.

Pablo Honey: It can be very exhausting.

at the same time I see a positive flip to it because it helps you, at least it helps, it helped me learn much faster. because you're constantly scanning and listening actively and digesting a lot of information at the same time. So there's a learning upside than the other aspect that I see.

Positive is something I experienced often with people I work with where I'm reviewing a piece of work or we are collaborating on something and I can see a lot of things at the same time. so there's always a flip side to it. over, over the years I've been able to manage it much better. and at the same time, I think it has that, flip side that allowed me to learn much faster [00:50:00] and also provide, feedback and guidance, on a lot of details at the same time.

Radim: I mean, it's beautiful. It's beautiful. My last question to you in this, I'm processing it what you've told me for the last hour because it's. It's, I love it. But my question is before I let you go, is, it kind of goes back to the beginning. You were too gian to be Swiss to be Gian too Spanish.

No, too Gian to be Catalan, then too Spanish to be in New York. Where is home? what is the definition of home for you? And is there something new on the horizon? Or are you happy where you are and keeping yourself in check by your current successes and current place?

Or is your mind, onto the next thing? Where's home?

Pablo Honey: Do we have another hour? 

Radim: You can take as long as you 

Pablo Honey: I think, it's a fantastic question. home to me is where my feet are, [00:51:00] and at the same time it means that I feel at home in motion and I. I feel at home on a plane where I am very creative and, feel very comfortable, unlike other people,

but it goes by stages. I suppose. I can call New York City home. it's the place I lived the longest in my life, and despite some distance with certain things, like I, I feel very comfortable here. and I'm lucky enough to be working, with some freedom to move. And I spent a fair amount of time back home in Galicia and Spain, where I also, feel at home.

So it's a difficult question to answer when. Home is not a place, but it's a state of mind and, always in [00:52:00] transition.

Radim: you may have called it a difficult question to answer, but you've answered it peacefully because home is by your feet are, is gorgeous. absolutely gorgeous. And I am so happy we've met. I'm so happy we've had this conversation and all the other conversation we had in the past and the conversation we'll have in the future, because there's so much we have in common and I just hope that, you know, people have listened to the conversation all the way to here because there's, yeah, it's been beautiful.

So thank you. 

Pablo Honey: thank you so much. I enjoyed it very much and I hope to see you.

soon. 

Radim: Thank you.

 Thank you for listening to this episode of Daring Creativity Podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions, and suggestions, So please get in touch via the email, in the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me. Rad Malid.

The audio production was done by [00:53:00] Neil Mackay from 7 million Bucks Podcast. Thank you and I hope to see you on the next episode.