James Martin — designer, educator, and now double author of No Bullshit Branding — joins Radim to unpack why perception so often outruns talent, and what to do about it. ~

The conversation moves from why James wrote a deliberately slow, research-heavy book in a fast-content world, into his central framework: the gap between evidence (everything you've actually done) and proof (what you show the world so people can believe it). 

Along the way, they cover the "hidden geniuses" of the creative industry, the effort heuristic, and why chasing social media visibility without asking where your actual clients are is quietly (well — loudly) burning people out.

Takeaways

• Evidence and proof are not the same thing — evidence is everything you've done; proof is the fraction of it you make visible to people who don't yet know you
• Perception can outweigh talent: the effort heuristic means people equate visible effort with value, regardless of skill
• "Hidden geniuses" — highly skilled people with no visibility — lose opportunities to less-skilled people who are simply better perceived
• A brand is a recognisable reputation, not a logo or a content calendar
• The Five Idea Keys are sequential — you can't skip ahead without answering the question in front of you
• Minimum Viable Brand borrows from lean startup thinking: build small, put it in the world, test, then improve
• Ask existing clients how they actually found you before deciding where to spend your marketing time
• Human biology drives us to conform (Hotelling's Law) — awareness of that pull is the first step to resisting it
• A book (or any deliberate act of proof) can reset how you're perceived, separate from algorithmic visibility

Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic

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James Martin: I think it's really, really like, I mean, we'll just go into that kind of building, like the perception piece as well. And I think another really important thing about that is also,who you're spending time with and what you're doing.

So whereas maybe like three or four years ago, yes, I had a book, but it was predominantly my world. I could only ever speak from my own perspective because that's all I've got. I'd never try and tell other people what they should do. But,I realized that was becoming a problem for me.

It might not have been a problem for anybody else, but it was a problem for me. So what I wanted to do is I wanted to start putting myself in different rooms and create new opportunities for me. 

Speaker: Welcome to Daring Forever, a podcast about being human, wired for wonder, capable of courage, perpetually becoming. It's about the waves that knock us under and the strange, stubborn grace with which we surface. My name is Radim Malinic. I'm an author, creative, and an eternally curious human being on a mission to speak to incredible people whom I call Forever Daring Humans, those in pursuit of an extraordinary life.

Every week, I share an interview that is packed with amazing stories, value, and I can only ask you, how will you dare forever? . This podcast is inspired by my upcoming book titled Daring Forever, which is now available for pre-order out in October 

 Today on Daring Forever, I'm joined by James Martin, designer, brand builder, and now also double author with his latest book, No Bullshit Branding. James built social media following he never meant to have, and when he started being seen just as another internet influencer, he did the opposite of everything the algorithm rewards.

He slowed down and spent a year writing a book. We talk about the difference between evidence and proof, why perception can outweigh talent, the hidden geniuses he keeps meeting who nobody can find, and his five idea keys to turning ideas into action. This conversation is about building a reputation you can actually stand behind.

This is my conversation with James Martin.

Radim Malinic: Hey, James. Welcome to Daring Forever. It's great to see you again. How are you doing?

James Martin: Brother, I am great. Thank you so much for asking. How are you, Radim? How are you? Do you ever get asked how you are? Are you okay?

You

Radim Malinic: I'm grand.

James Martin: great. You look fantastic. 

Radim Malinic: James, we are here because I'm one of your fans in what you do, and we are going to celebrate the fact that you've got your new book out. It's been out in the open for the last few days.

And yeah, let's talk about what it's like to be an author, brand builder, educator, 

James Martin: as you know,I've got this line that I always say.

Radim Malinic: It's one for those who may have not heard of you, how would you introduce yourself? There's a lot of people who know you because you've got incredible following and incredible community that you've built. But if someone finds themself here by accident, who's James and what do you do?

James Martin: I think firstly I would say James is a, human being. I think that's the kind of thing that I like to call myself more than anything. I think that's an important thing to represent today. but to elevate a pitch, I would, say I am James Martin, not the famous chef. I a designer of 20 plus years.

I am now a double author, which is amazing. as you mentioned, the new book is just fresh out, which is incredibly exciting. We'll go into the reasons why I wrote that book, I'd imagine. but brand builder, educator, I try to mentor the new generation of creative people trying to build opportunity for themselves and trying to build their business.

and as you say, I, wear many other hats, which are design advisory board at Canva, creative partner at Lincoln, you know, writing for The Fast Company, running a studio,all of the bits and pieces that, are a part of my world. But I think as a creative that makes me happier. I've never been too good at dialing totally in into one thing.

Radim Malinic: So that is a really shit intro, but I've never been good at those even though I've done it a million times. But as you say, we keep evolving, so it keeps changing.Absolutely. mean, look, you started with the word designer, and then author, and then mentor, and then advisory board and all of that. And

James Martin: I think it was, Rob Draper who I've spoken to a few weeks ago, and he said, "Look, I think just the word creative is actually now encompassing a lot more to just being a specialist."

Radim Malinic: Like, we do the things that we've grown into this term, 'cause I remember people taking a real sort of aller- allergic reaction to the word creative some 10 years ago, whereas now that's what we are. Like, 'cause I think the world is changing and we are changing with the world, right?

James Martin: Yeah, I think, we're told to niche, aren't we? We're told to tell people exactly what we do. But I think creativity is so different for so many different people. to some, it could be art, it could be, the way they think about ideas, the, the value that they bring into the world.

But, my plumber is creative, my hairdresser is creative. one of the bigger problems I actually believe within our industry is that we think we own creativity, to be fair. I think that is, probably coming to the fore a little bit now, especially with all the new tech and everything that's happening in the world.

This kind of ownership of creativity as arty people or designy people, has, put it into perspective, hasn't it, really? But I've never truly believed that, creativity is ours to own. But, I do think of things. I do like to solve problems. I do believe I creatively find solutions to things.

but again, like it's a role, isn't it, we play. Would I say I'm a creative? I would say that's one role that I play, but I'm also a, dad. I'm also a friend. I'm also a, many other things. A bit of a twit. Do you know what I mean? Dyslexic. There's so many roles and things that I am 

Not a weird question to ask somebody, not that you ask weird questions, but it's such a difficult question to answer, isn't it? The, what are you? Do you know what I mean? I think it's a toughie. Do you know what I mean?

Radim Malinic: It's really interesting what you just said, because when you ask someone in the world of business, they say, "Look, I'm a trader. I work in finance. I do this, I do that." they're a lot more extroverted about their answers because we sometimes have, confidence issues or expression issues with the fact like who am I?

What do I do? Because some people don't have that problem because they say, this is what I do. This is who I am." And I think with the multicolor, multifaceted, world of what we can be and what we can do, sometimes it is hard to explain yourself until you really worked on it.

Because you said something which I had to write down. It says, we are being told to niche." And I'm gonna disagree with that. You can only be told what you allow yourself to be told because the world is giving you lots of signals.

There's loads of signals out there in what you can adapt, what you can listen to, because some people say, "Do whatever you want." Some people say, this is the one way to find it." And

Radim Malinic: you can absolutely be one thing to one type of people, and you can be exploring the creativity in a way like you are, to find the interest and to find the ability to find something that changes your future as it is.

Because your plumber is not really likely to be, writing the next, a symphony or, be creating a screenplay for something because he just finished plumbing someone else's house, So it's just like the linear path of their work is slightly different.

Whereas in creative world, we've got the ability to really invent our own dream future, which I think is one of the most incredible things we can do because I believe the life is what you make it. it's really for us to explore it because the ability to be anyone at any time is incredible.

James Martin: Yeah, I agree with you to some degree. but also... You'll know the challenges of being a creative person, and the multipotentialite and all of the other things that we,humans love novelty in general, but I think creative people are generally, looking forward a little bit more.

They see things that other people don't, and they crave that kind of difference. but there is an issue, and there has to be some sort of balance, I think, with that because you do have to solve problems for particular people to be able to survive as a creative. you do have to know what you do.

You do have to be able to articulate your value. So agree that, whilst we shouldn't niche ourselves into a corner and we shouldn't, try to edge ourselves and box ourselves into anything, I do believe that also when people don't do that, this is where business side of their creativity struggles because nobody knows what they do.

Nobody really knows how they can help them. And I think as creative people, we haveto find a balance, 

 a lot of creative people who are in flow doing all sorts of things with no real rhyme or rhythm to it, it's difficult to be chosen.It's too risky for people. So I think creative people do unfortunately have to find a balance with the business and the creativity.

and I don't think it's a balance any of us have found. I haven't found it quite yet. so, you know, it's still trying to figure it out. but there's a lot to learn from lots of other industries. I think that's potentially what I'm trying to say here is there's,there's so many good people in multiple different industries where we can learn from and bring hospitality thinking into my design business.

I like to try and bring, business mindset into creativity and, relationship building and psychology into my creative business. Hopefully I can still pay my bills and support my family and all the other shit we gotta do

Radim Malinic: Yeah.

 Absolutely. Because, when you think about it, I always feel that w-when you are novice creative designer, whoever you wanna be, you are very focused on who you are identity wise. Like obviously you've got this sort of this inward stage where you need to prove your worth and show the world that you've got something to add.

 But as you grow older, obviously like that lens is getting wider and wider and you actually realize that, unless someone's got a problem, you're not really working. And obviously you need to be almost selfless about solving that problem because after all, you are delivering the solution to somebody else who's paying for it.

 this is for some reason this analogy popped in my head. Imagine going, jumping on a bus and you're like, "Hey, can you take me to, the next, whatever, next train station?" And they're like, "Yeah, I'll take you there my way. We'll take you there and off route somewhere else."

It's like, no, no, no. There's a logic between A and B and that's what we need to sometimes do. What I wanna talk about is one of your hats, which is being an author, and I really wanna congratulate you on finishing and publishing the second book. it's incredible obviously, to see how you do things and what you've put into this and wh-where you want the world to be in a way to drive this knowledge that you've got to share is incredible.

So, when we talk about, obviously in your book, it's called "No Bullshit Branding: A Step-by-Step Guide to Discover, Design, and Deliver Your Brand." Take me to the beginning. where did the idea for the book come from? Why did you feel it needed to exist, and what did you want to achieve with this?

Because, the books, as you know, I'm on my seventh one now, you can always tussle with the reason, does the world need it? and then you realize it does, and here's the reason why.

James Martin: Great question. now,writing books isn't easy and it's not something, I don't say that to sound cool, I say that because it's really difficult. It takes a lot of time and it takes a lot of patience, takes a lot of research, takes a lot of thinking.

And I think that really, when you mentioned there, why another book, Does the world need another book like this? and this particular book I actually wrote for me. and what I mean by that is like I, I think we've all, especially over the last maybe three to five years, we've found there's so many things distracting us now.

There's so much noise. do this, you're not good enough, you're not earning enough. You should be doing this, you should be following this trend, you should become this, Kind of like what we were saying at the beginning. You should this, you should do this, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Not that we're saying we should do that, and I found myself, especially as somebody who is, an addict at heart, it used to be cocaine and alcohol, now it's, marketing myself and,trying to build a business and work, essentially, probably not gonna kill me as quick, but, could kill me.

But,we talked earlier about how you evolve every few years and I was kind of going through one of those evolutions where, I was maybe being perceived as something I didn't wanna be perceived.

 I think whenever you grow a community online, you kinda get, positioned as, the influencer or the twit on the internet. which I am, the twit on the internet a little bit. But,I realized that wasn't really something that I wanted for myself.

It's not something that I'd worked for 20 years to try and build, was to then be known as this thing. I was running a studio before even social media was even a thing. So it was something I accidentally fell into a little bit. So, basically the book for me was,what do I wanna be known for?

 It was a reason to slow me down. It was a reason to think deeper about the things that I wanted to talk about. research more, be more curious. I think in the kind of short form video creation world and the social media world and the email marketing world, it's all quite quick, and attention spans are quite short.

And I was like, well, this isn't really like... Mastery for me is a long never-ending process of something. you never get there. and the book for me was just another journey towards that, trying to bring a new perspective to my world of brand building. because again, being in that social media world, it's, got a little bit convoluted.

there's a lot of people saying things that I don't believe are totally accurate because they're learning from people who also don't know what it is. So I think for me it was like this, okay, well, let me just sit down, let me spend, a huge amount of time writing 40,000 words, designing a book, creating all the shit.

I physically had to slow down to think 'cause was like, thinking's gonna be so important moving forward. 'Cause this is when, AI was coming into it and all this conversation of automation, ChatGPT, and all this stuff, and I was like, golly, like I don't

wanna fall into that trap of like outsourcing my brain. I wanna use my brain. So essentially I wrote a book and that is where we are today. It was purely a selfish thing to stop me from getting distracted by a world that I didn't wanna be in.

Radim Malinic: absolutely love the end of the answer. Absolutely. Because there is something part selfish and part obsessive about creating a book, because I thought after book five and six, I did two books in nine months in 2023 or 2022, '23, and I just created those two books. I was like: "Look, I've got it. I know the process.

I've got everything." Book number seven, it's taken me longer than anything else to create it, because you got a different lens on the world. It's like, okay, what does the world really need? And actually, what you said, how do I slow down to think and how do I want to be perceived?

Because the beautiful part of, I think, of creative journeys is that you are always moving forward. You can decide to stand still for a bit, but you're always moving forward, and I think that's the magical part because that reveals to you so much more knowledge and so much more information that you can move away from, like you said, I didn't wanna be perceived as a, sort of internet influencer.

I didn't wanna be perceived as this." Like, you wanted to have something that actually is your own. Because you and I, met in person three years ago at Design Thinkers in Toronto, I was read- reading your newsletter at that time. I was like: "James, there is a book in those newsletters."

Like, what you were writing was so beautifully philosophical, like to take this broad,take on creativity, on life, on being a human, and I thought: "God, there is a book in it. You're already writing a book." And then you came with a book that I didn't expect to write, but then in retrospect, that's definitely the book you needed to write because it is something that's given you a unique space to to solidify, to cement it.

It was like, okay, this is capitalizing on 20 or in, 20 odd years of experience. How do you distill it to the now? Because personally, I wrote book on branding in 2019, and I wanted to project what we were doing at that time, writing it for myself, for my clients, to demystify the process. And again, the world didn't need a new book on branding, but it hella was, it hella worked because everything's moving.

the processes that, some of the old school studios were doing are no longer valid. We're moving with the way of thinking, ideation, execution, and delivery. So in your case, I was like: "Oh, of course, that makes sense." So in the process of putting this together, let's go on a bit of a step-by-step journey because,even setting the idea on a title or on a theme, where did you start with the ideation and where did you start with the direction?

James Martin: again, another interesting question. I can't remember. this was like 18 months ago. But for me, the fact that I got to swear on the cover was always a good thing. I do know what you're like, but I don't know what you're like in this particular process.

But when it comes to anything, I don't know if this is a creative person problem, and when I say creative, I use those air bunnies because of the plumber thing earlier. But, For me, a title, I'm not one of these people who can, write a lot and then, oh, the title will just come to me. I have to have the title before I go.

And if I don't have the title The title sets the tone for me. and the title is such a... It's almost like this ownership thing. It's the same whenever I've done a course. It's the same whenever I've built a workshop. Like, the title for me is that kind of tone setter, and it allows me to know.

It's something I can always come back to essentially and go, "Okay, is this no bullshit branding? Okay. If it is, it stays in. If it's not," this. And we talked,way, way back ago about like certain apps that you were using, 'cause I'm big on like I don't really know anything.

 And who do I know who writes a lot of books? So, oh, I know Radip. So we talked about like the different apps you were using and how you started to break stuff down, all the rest of it. And is it Script, Scripture or Scriptor? Script...

Scrivener. That's it. Yeah, as you can tell, I didn't even listen to you back then, but I've been using it for the last two years. but that again, was like a really good like, okay, so I've got my title, and then from the title it's like, okay, so what is the kind of things that I wanna talk about outside the obvious?

 So, then it's almost like chapter breakdowns. Okay, what's the story arc like? Is it gonna take somebody on a journey? Is it like... I don't want it to be like this kind of self gobble show where I'm just telling everybody how much I love myself and my work and my family and all this kind of stuff.

That's not really, my kind of vibe. And not there's anything wrong with that, it's just, this book is there for a reason. It's maybe, offer a new perspective or maybe change people's idea of something and not for me to be right, I think that's a big problem, and something I learnt quite early on, which is like, I actively like follow people online that I don't like, that I don't agree with because it allows me to challenge my perspectives and the way I think.

I never want to think that I'm right. And even if I don't agree with somebody, I'm always quite willing to accept it 'cause it makes me see the things I see in a slightly different way. It's more dots, as Steve Jobs would essentially say to, curating your taste and all the rest of it. So, you don't wanna get into your own echo chamber.

So, basically that's the reason why I wrote the book, was to try to offer a new perspective and to maybe help people see it in a slightly different way, because then maybe it will help them manage it or build their perception or their evidence or their reputation, which is something that I very much lean into in the book, is a brand as a recognizable reputation, 'cause that's how I have been positioning brand to my clients for quite a long time.

Because- as brand people have a very, unique language. And you only have to be on LinkedIn for 15 minutes to read people's bios to and I'm a brand person, 20, 20 years plus.

I read some people's posts and their bios and I go, "I don't even fucking know what you immersive counterculture experiential knobhead. I don't fucking know. I don't know what that means. Like, and so if I don't know, how on earth is your client gonna know?

Do so Even with the Made by James first book, it was logo process. This is more brand-based. So it's more so like how basically teaching people what I've learned and how I communicate brand to my clients, which makes it easier for them to manage and grab hold of, has become a very, very powerful tool.

And that's something that I share of in the book. And then how you can build that recognizable reputation, how it reduces friction, how evidence and perception work, and, all of these bits and pieces and how to do this stuff. But again, it's like, okay, with reference to the layout of a book, it's like, okay, so every good book, every good movie, every good story has a beginning, a middle, and an end, doesn't it?

And I am always trying to think about that. it's like scene setter, perspective shift, ideas, and then the practical elements of that. And then it's like the action. How can you go and do this? How can you go and action you know, I've always been big on designing your own way, and there isn't one right way to do anything.

And I think that's another thing that we've seen in our industry and the social media world, isn't it? Like, do it this way and you'll win. that's not really how it works. 

Radim Malinic: Again, it's, I think it's that perception of like what do we think we are being told or what actually, what we cherry-pick to hear because there's as many design processes as there are people. what I want to do next is actually open the book and kinda talk about some of the sections because I want everyone listening to this to have the book because there's some absolute gems in it.

James Martin: be lovely.

Radim Malinic: the three people listening to this... No, I'm joking. so, you obviously when we open up the book, it says that the branding has lost its way. How would you describe that section?

James Martin: How branding has lost its way. I think for me, language is probably, like, without going into absolutely everything, I think the language we use in and around brand building, branding brand, has, started to be misused or confused with things that it might not potentially be. and now that's not happened overnight.

That's happened over a, longer period of time. But,I believe that language, again, is probably the biggest, thing that I've seen that I could pinpoint, where it has lost its way. and I think we love shortcuts. I think that's what, the world we live in now, it's all about shortcuts.

And I go to enough conferences and I also go to enough conferences outside of our industry, and watch and learn how people use the terminology. And what they actually think. What is a brand? if

you asked, Radim, 20 great top studio owners on the planet what is brand, every single one of them would give you a different answer. There would be no consistency. So whoever you talk to, it's different answer. 

Radim Malinic: in a way so they should. because if everyone had the same answer, they might be producing the same work.

James Martin: Yeah

Radim Malinic: you talked about the language, it made me think about how we've lost the innocence at the junior or the student level, where you get people who are beautifully still young, still, still novices, but their CVs are populated with words like, "Well, I've helped the key stakeholders to," hit the,crucial KPIs."

And I'm like, "All right, pal, you just designed a menu." Like, it's okay to say, "This is what I did," because I think we have weaponized the language in a way of like who we work with. there is more branding work done for more companies, for more brands, for more organizations, and the language I think has been hijacked by the people who need to justify, their KPIs and their stakeholder, presence and all of that stuff.

I think it's been positive and negative influence because I think we speak better business, but also we speak better business before we speak good creativity, I think. And some of the times that's needed because if you're on your creative journey and I hope that, we can make that change somehow, you don't have to sound like you're an, an ex-CEO whilst you're looking for inter- internship roles.

it's okay to say, "I'm passionate about creativity. This is what I need to do." So I think you're right. I think the, the language in some way has been hijacked, has been weaponized, And maybe weaponized is the wrong word, but I think it's been unnecessarily made heavy and too official because ultimately what we're trying to do, we're trying to make nice experiences and nice products for nice people.

That's pretty much what it is, 

James Martin: Yeah. In its simplicity, isn't it? but when I, talk about language, I see it, for example, I'll go, "Love you, man." "Love ya." "Brother, love you, brother." to you, to my friends. But, like, that would never have happened 100

Radim Malinic: हम्म

James Martin: years ago. Do you know what I mean? You'd never tell another man you love him. You'd never tell somebody you didn't really know, "Love ya." You'd never do it to, a load of strangers, "Love ya." So again, the power of the word love has diminished. I think this, when I talk about that the same thing has happened with brand, you know. It's because it's continuously misused, people are struggling to... 'Cause like we, we talk about like every business is a brand. I design brands, brand, brand, brand, brand, brand. But that isn't something we get to decide either. Like, not every business becomes a brand. 

They're, the businesses and brands are very different things. So it's not again, being right or wrong, it's just understanding what the words mean. And again, like I'm not saying that people shouldn't have a different perspective on what a brand is, but our job or our role as designers or brand people or whatever it is, people who help people hopefully become brands, is to reduce friction for the people that we're trying to explain this stuff to, which is our clients.

And I think, again, with the world that we have found ourselves in over the last decade plus, there's a lot of designers speaking to a lot of designers. So now a lot of designers speak the way that they wanna speak to designers, but to their clients. And this is where the confusion happens, is because of this continuous echo chamber we find ourselves in.

We're asking our designer friends for advice on our website when you should be asking your clients. a designer's not gonna buy from you. You gotta ask your clients better questions. And I think that's the thing for me is like, I am in the job of friction removal.

Like my job is to make myself a safer commercial choice for my clients. It's to reduce risk, it's to create more certainty. I do that by using the right language. I do that by making the stuff that I do easier to understand. And that's essentially what I try to do in the book, is just to break that process down a little bit because, you coach people, I coach people.

it's quite, interesting the stuff that I see them create this crazy amazing content and then I ask them about it in private, about that piece of content that they created, and they can't give me the answer. They've copied it from somewhere. It's like, what is going on?

 Like this idea of building this perception as a thought leader, as this, as that, is killing careers.

Radim Malinic: In your chapter one, I think there's a really great summary of what you've just been saying, because in your chapter one, you're talking about history of branding, and you go from branding as a function in the industrial boom and the aspirational madman, and the key takeaway there, it says, "Branding turned into theater."

I think that's a good takeaway.

media circus. It is, it's all performance. and, or what I may be of personal branding, I mean, I've got my own take on that, but it's at best it's performed authenticity. It's not real. Do you know what I mean? And it's theater.

James Martin: It's a Um, and I think that can trip a lot of people

Radim Malinic: Yeah,

I think that's an interesting way of saying it because, yeah, you're right. When you think about the requirements for a brand or let's say a product or let's say...

James Martin: Lush who said they produced 800 piece cosmetics. But they said, "We're gonna go away from social media because they're no longer serving us." And there was a summary of what they did, and there was like eight to 900 pieces of content every year, three posts a day across multi-channel.

Radim Malinic: And you're thinking, "But you sell on the high street. You sell the soaps on the high street. Why do we need a singular store on the high street in every town in England to be producing, youup to a thousand pieces of content across all of the social media?" Because yes, of course, you wanna sell. you always need to replenish your audience, which you need to bring the stuff to new people.

But you don't always have to have an opinion about ice cream, an international ice cream day or friendship day or this and that, They realized that when they switched off the, the social media, it didn't hurt them in any possible way. They were still making the same sales in stores. they could focus in different places.

Because I like what you said. Like it has turned into a theater because when you think about the technological advances, let's say, and I think it was Facebook who started doing autoplays on their videos on the feed, then YouTube got caught up, then Twitter caught up, and everyone just did because it's about the retention of the eyeballs on the platform.

And you're thinking, "Are we doing the right thing here? Because are we really helping someone live a better life?" Because no, you're just stealing their time.

James Martin: Yeah, I've been doing a lot of research on this. I've probably already started writing my third book, Radim, which I'm already hating myself for. but it's this idea of, perception is such a powerful play, or such a powerful tool, word, whichever way you wanna look at it.

because- perception is essentially probably more powerful than talent or ability. I think social media has proved that to some degree, because if you can be perceived as somebody who is, doing lots of work and shows up and is busy, that person will get more opportunity than the incredibly talented pe- person that nobody can find.

 that is just the real, the realness of it. Now, with Lush Cosmetics, huge brand on the high street, got, the kind of foot flow, the people walking past it. I can kind of understand to some degree why,they could potentially pull away from that side of their marketing.

 and I think this is a really, really important thing. But for, and I'll be very honest, like I've grown a pretty hefty audience online. but a million people on Instagram don't buy from me. but it's when we talk about perception, it's what that creates.

Like, would I have had publishers reach out to me to write books if I didn't have that? No. Would I have got onto the board of Canva without that? No. Would I have got some of the clients and some of the opportunities I've had without that? No. So I think there is a real balance depending on who you are, what you do, and who you do it for.

I think there is a plan. I'm going somewhere here, and when we talk about this perception, I think the effort heuristic is a incredibly important thing for businesses, freelancers, anybody who runs their own business to be tapping into.

And for anybody who doesn't know what a, like a heuristic is or what the kind of effort heuristic is, a heuristic is essentially a shortcut in people's minds. Do youit's almost like this kind of people assume that because you're putting effort in, it means you're valuable.

 It's kind of that, that you're showing up, you're always there, and it makes it easier for them to choose you. So- social media is a prime example of when we look at these big like Jake Paul people, Kim Kardashians, and all these blah, blah, blah, blah, blahs.

I don't know them personally. They're probably really, really nice people. But what they've done is they lent into that kind of effort heuristic. They continuously showed up and they continuously built these patterns and made it easier for them to choose for a certain thing. 

And then they grew, and then they used that to grow these mega audiences, MrBeast and, the Kardashians. These are billion, billion-dollar companies now, I think. So I think what they did very well is they, whether they knew it or not, they were leaning into this kind of effort heuristic where they were, basically allowing people to choose them because they were familiar.

And I think, It's basically cognitive bias. Like it's essentially what it is. Like I think that effort shows commitment and people then, it reduces friction. And then makes it easier for them to choose. Like, the clients that I have received from, a social media post or a,podcast or whatever it is, like it's easy for them.

Like the amount of times they'll go, "Well, I saw this and I like the way you do that, and I like the way you think, so I want to work with you." If I hadn't showed that evidence, and this is, I could go onto that. I could go round the houses here with evidence, proof and perception.

But I think that's where we'll leave it for now because we've probably got a few more other things to talk about. But this effort heuristic and the social media-ness of our lives is here, and I think if you use it intentionally and deliberately, like Edward De Bono says, design is deliberate. 

Like you can use it to your advantage. I think personally.

Radim Malinic: Yeah. I mean, what you describe it obviously is, let's say 15, 20-year-old phenomenon. Like we, we didn't have that before. Obviously, you only had a selected few that were very visible. you had your Dieter Rams and all of those guys, Like they were known for particular sort of evidence, as you call it, evidence of what they've created, and they had a sort of high perception there.

But I think in the world of being able to amplify your visibility through, social media channels, we've given people a beautiful opportunity to be anyone at any time, anyone, anywhere, any time, to other people because we've created gatekeeping was obviously, it was removed and obviously it is democratized.

So anyone can take that opportunity. But it's not for everyone to really then to process it in the best possible way because you open yourself to totally different worlds that potentially can be clouding, as you say, the way of being perceived because a lot more people can make an opinion about what you do and how you do it.

And as you said at the beginning, like you wanted to create a book, so you actually changed the way you're being perceived, on the back of a basically big, big following. Because I always believe that the posts, the social media content, it lives and dies with the algorithm, dies with the time it gets posted, and then it's just a sort of digital dust somewhere in the background.

Whereas just like yourself, I've been a big believer in books. I believe that books are creating authority. they're creating us opportunities where other people don't necessarily go. I also believe that not everyone should write a book ' cause I mean, if everyone had a book they want to write, the libraries or the bookshops would be bigger than town centers with all sorts of crap in it.

So there's a reason for people to do this and that. But and definitely what you've created plays into your perception versus evidence sort of diagram or your perception versus evidence, theory, where you've got high evidence, high perception, low evidence, high perception. Obviously, you're talking about like how these things really play to the truth of the brand and how you can dial it up potentially on the way that people need to see it.

So it's something that I haven't seen done before when you talk about a diagram between how perception meets the evidence. where did that idea come from? How did you observe it? Is it something from your own practice, or is it from research, or is it just a

 part of the, back on the phenomena of social media and this came through

James Martin: Yeah, I think it's before we jump into that, I think it's really, really like, I mean, we'll just go into that kind of building, like the perception piece as well. And I think another really important thing about that is also,who you're spending time with and what you're doing.

So whereas maybe like three or four years ago, yes, I had a book, but it was predominantly my world. I could only ever speak from my own perspective because that's all I've got. I'd never try and tell other people what they should do. But,I realized that was becoming a problem for me.

It might not have been a problem for anybody else, but it was a problem for me. So what I wanted to do is I wanted to start putting myself in different rooms and create new opportunities for me. So, I'm very blessed now that I can look at my phone book now and the people who I'm texting, and ne- so that's not like a weird flex, but they're people that I really want to associate with and learn with now.

From like Debbie Milman, Lisa Smith, Radim. Eddie Do you know what I mean? Like, all of these amazing people I get to spend time... But I've worked really, really hard to prove that I am worth listening to and spending time with. And I don't just do that by creating social media.

I do that by, writing for Fast Company and doing other bits where it does open doors to other rooms. And I think you are, a result of the people that you spend time with as well, because you can use their trust as a whole perception game, I suppose they call it. But, you shouldn't totally like fabricate it.

But, if I stood next to a, Andrew Tate, people would look at me very differently compared to whether I stood next to like Paula Share, for example. I polarize for a reason because you can automatically make that assumption. Like if I'm seen next to this person, I'm seen as one thing.

If I'm seen next to this person, I'm seen as another thing. I'm the same person, but who I'm associated with and standing next to is very, very different. So you absorb those people. And I've always been very, very, very conscious of who I'm seen with and who I'm talking to. 

So that's the first thing. So back onto the perception versus evidence. this actually came from doing a lot of coaching and, I've tried real hard to help a lot of creative people over, the last decade really. and I noticed there was this particular segment of people, who I call the hidden geniuses.

Like who, again, like they're not really keen on playing this, should we call it the perception game? They're not really, Going on social media. They're not really into marketing themselves, or not marketing themselves in the way they're told to market themselves,I would probably say is a better thing.

they get a lot of work from referrals and a lot of work from word of mouth, and But apart from that, they're hidden. They're incredibly talented. They're like some of the best creatives, best illustrators, best photographers. I only know them because I know them, but nobody else knows about them, and they're these incredibly talented people.

Some of them have got no work. And then I look at what I see online, and there are some bang average people flying. And this kind of just got me thinking, I was like, "What is going on here?" There's something going on, and that's where, like this evidence versus perception thing came to me.

Because the thing is with evidence, Radim, is that not everybody has access to it. So for example, let's just take you because you're sitting in front of me. Like, nobody has access to all of your evidence. They don't have access to every client call, every email, every piece of work, 

 you've written seven books, but I guarantee If you added all the words up, there's probably 20 books there. You just had to cut so much stuff. So evidence, evidence, evidence, evidence, evidence. But not everybody has access to all of that. So what you've got to do is you've got to turn some of that into proof.

So there's a big difference between evidence and proof. So, and I think that's what people are doing with the perception thing, but maybe if they're going the wrong way. They're very, very big on let's say they don't have any evidence.

So what they're doing is they're taking this trend, or they're taking what this clever person says, or they're taking the work from this person, and they're talking about it. They're building this perception of somebody who knows what they're talking about. But because they've got no evidence to back it up, when a client does reach out to them and goes, "Oh, hey, you're really interesting.

I found you online." And you start talking to this person, you realize they don't have a fucking clue what they're talking about. And you ask them, "Can I see some of your work?" And they go, "Oh, it's n- none of it's real client work," or, "None of it's this." And then suddenly the client goes, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa."

To me, effort heuristic shortcut, you are perceived as somebody incredibly powerful. I call them hype brands. But in reality, they can't back it up. But then on the other side of that, you've got the hidden geniuses who have all of the evidence, who are incredibly good at what they do, high evidence, but their perception is low and nobody can find them.

So this is why I think you do have to have that balance of evidence and perception. You have to build them together to build opportunity.

Radim Malinic: This is really interesting you said. You got hidden geniuses with all the evidence, but no one can find them. And obviously that still points us to almost, let's call it ancient-like, business systems, because you're only as good as the people that know you. I think it used to be about the fact that, it's about who you know, now about who knows you.

But the thing is, you can make yourself visible. You can go to people and say, "Hey, this is not..." Let's use your words, like, "This is my evidence, and this is also me." Like, how do you want to be perceived? Because you can actually, I think in a certain way, you can engineer the perception of how you show up in the world.

Like you can do that. And before all of what you're describing was that we didn't have that, and people were busy because there was obviously different channels of getting work, different ways of establishing yourself. you had to go out there and do this. And I think,it still becomes very, very truthful and very important even for the world of brands, that some of the stuff they do, let's say on social, let's say, let's take Lush again, 

they were driving people from their social media into their stores. And when you think about it, like with social media, people think that they-- Sorry, I wanna not generalize it, but it can be potentially assumed that just because you show up, the world will come to you.

 Whereas the thing is that you're creating these breadcrumbs, obviously the world will find you bit by bit, or you show to the world your evidence that you can do certain stuff. And I've been problemizing this in my book, "Daring Forever," that you've read, as one of my early readers. Thank you. When I talk about permission and permission and acceptance, about the fact that you will never know everything that you need to know.

Sometimes you will have your bullshit patches where you'll be like, "Okay, I don't know how to do this, and that." But it's about being s-strong within yourself, say like, "This is who I am and this is what I need to be," because we can borrow all sorts of stuff from everywhere. But it's like how you process it.

It's like going into higher education. You're not doing the exams about what you've learned in the last two weeks, but you, what you managed to remember. It's about how you accumulate all of the informations and then realize, "I want to take this part of information with me on the next part of my journey."

And I think we've created a world which is so noisy and so complicated that making this a naturally just a first point of like, "Who do I want to be?" is so disorientating, isn't it?

James Martin: Yeah, it's incredibly disorientating. But, I think like you mentioned there something about,I think the default issue is people... Like let's take social media for example. I don't want this to be a social media rant because it's been, what it is. It has its, I wouldn't know you without it, and there's so many good sides to it.

But, we tend to prey on the bad side of it. But, I think the problem is the default system for me of like, oh, I own a business, I need to be creating TikToks, Instagrams, YouTubes, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, without any ever, without any thought or reasoning behind it.

It's just the logical thing to do. but it's actually incredibly illogical. The logical thing to do would be to figure out who you want to work with. Go and ask that person where do they find people that they want to work with, and then what you do is you just go and hang out there. 

'Cause like you said, like it used to be very, very different. It used to be, okay, well, I do brand building and design for boat companies. So what you would do pre-social media is you'd probably follow the boating logs, you'd follow the sailing, forums. You'd go to boat building events. 

Southampton Boat Show. I know you're a fellow Southampton dude way back when. that's what you would do. You would figure out where your clients are, and then you'd go and hang out there. But what's happened now is everybody's just hanging out in the same place, and they're not even asking whether their clients are,are even there.

And like, this is one thing I always ask people who I work closely with is like, "Have you asked your existing clients how they found you? Have you asked your existing clients the things that they read,the blogs they read, the newsletters they're signed up to, and all these things?"

And it's like, "No." It's like, but they're spending 10 hours a week creating content for a machine that's bringing them nothing, and they're getting burnt out, and they're getting sad and angry and all these other things because They haven't asked the right questions essentially.

So I think that's a really, really important thing. 'Cause for some people, depending on what you wanna do in the world, it's incredibly powerful, but for others, you probably don't need to be there. we do put ourselves into some of these situations by accident purely because human biology wants us to fit in, and to fit in, we just do what everybody else does.

 That's Hotelling's law at its very, very best. we all gravitate towards the same place eventually if we're in competition with each other.

Radim Malinic: When you think about it, biology to fit in is, comes from insecurity because in the past you get left behind by your tribe, which normally was about, a group of 200, you die. this is obviously, what I was trying to work through my book.

It was like this is the neuroscience of the brain. Like we are working with ancient hardwiring that sort of helps us to, not trips us up in every possible way. what you talked about just now, I think takes me to your section in your book, which is, you got the five keys, the, the five idea keys.

And I kind of like that, you talk about a spark, person, place, energy, and offer in there, and I feel like it's almost reinforcing the idea that nothing happens in vacuum and all of the steps are connected. And, this might be another MBJ,unique,talking point.

Rainford, how did you get to those five keys? 'Cause they are really, really intriguing.

James Martin: Just, again, through evidence, my own evidence. thousands of client calls of trying to figure out the right information to get me to the right answer. Um,and it's something that I've used for a long time, but never really thought about it because it's always just been for me, so you can just do it behind closed doors.

But when you're writing a book and trying to explain the things, you have to sometimes build easy-to-follow frameworks or models that other people can adopt. and that's essentially what the Five Idea Keys is. And that's actually a registered trademark, which I'm very proud of, as well. But everybody can use it.

I built it for everybody. not that we're sure that whether copyright or trademark's gonna mean anything in the next five years, thanks to Mr. AI, but we'll figure that one out. So for me, again, another easy way to explain stuff to my clients, an easy way to explain stuff for, the people I'm working with outside of that.

but again, it's like the whole Five Idea Keys is a part of this thing called the Minimum Viable Brand, which is a big thing for me. The only reason I'm sitting here talking to you is I've just managed to take a lot of action and not overthink stuff, and that's a big problem. Again, human biology. Our brain has this thing in it called an amygdala, 

Its job is to scan for threats and essentially keep us safe, and it's still working today. Before it was like stopping us from getting eaten by dinosaurs. I know we didn't live with dinosaurs, but that's my point. Just to make a shit point there. But we don't need it as much anymore, but it's still the thing slowing us down, 'cause the idea of putting an idea out into the world is difficult because when it's out in the world, people could judge it and it doesn't feel safe, so we just don't bother.

And I think creative people struggle with that. So the only reason, like I said, I'm sitting here in front of you is because once I've got the idea, I've basically put it into the world. I've taken action on it, and then just learn. And then if it doesn't work, I just do something else, and I put something else into the world.

That's just a continuous repetition of this. Building stuff, taking action, getting it out into the world, test it, validate it, grow it, or get rid of it essentially. so what I realized that was a really important thing for me and my growth, so I packaged that up within the book, basically the MVB, minimum viable brand, which is, basically a total,rip.

Well, it's not a rip really, but like the MVP, which is from Eric Ries's, lean startup, but minimum viable product is basically like you build a really scrappy version of a product, you put it out into the world to real humans, they tell you what they like and what they don't like, and then you go back and you make it better.

And you just go through this process, and that's how I've done the books, that's how I've done my frameworks, that's how I've done my courses in the past. Build small, test it with a few, come back, make it better, put it out into the world. So basically, the five idea keys is a part of that MVB process.

So once you've got an idea, it's like, okay, great. Now what do I do with it? Well, you take it through the five idea keys. But the five idea keys are sequential. You can't go to the blue key without knowing the answer to the first key.

Do you know what I mean? So you have to go through all these things. But the beautiful thing about this, Radim, is the fact that not all ideas are good. And so when you take them through these keys, if you can't answer a question in there, and I've got like little exercises in each key, which is super easy, my mom can even do them.

you stop and you have to think about it more. I write in the book about a chap called Saf, and Saf spent $86,000 building his ideas before he tested it in the real world, and then found out nobody wanted it. And there are so many businesses and so many, entrepreneurs who do this.

They chuck loads of money at stuff. They build it, they put it out into the world, and then the world goes, "I don't need that. Doesn't solve a problem for me." And they waste time, they waste money, and they waste momentum. So for me, I was like, well, how can I fix this particular problem that I know people have had?

not just my clients, but designers and all the rest of it. How can I get people to take action, but intentionally?

Radim Malinic: the parallel juxtaposition. there is this opposite logic with people in sales. they will try to sell you something they haven't got, with the website they haven't got, with the brand they haven't got. They're like, "Hey," I think there's a great book called, I think it's called "Million Dollar Weekend," and the guy was telling about the ideas he was trying to get off the ground.

Zero branding, Like, he was calling people with a product he didn't have. When he made the sales, he then started building stuff. And of course, with when you talk about the view of a designer or someone who ta-ta-takes care greatly about what they try to bring to the world, I would be personally in the past discouraging people from minimum viable brand because you want them to launch the thing properly in the first place.

But you are right. You obviously, you do that little bit, you do it again, and obviously you validate it and, we look at knife and fork, they are like version 77 of something. like they are not the first thing that people invented. But I love that. I love that term and I love how you find the powers in this.

Before we finish, I wanna talk about the human side of creating a book and the people who were involved in the process of you making the book, because I can see our friends from Pennybridge. There's a letter from Debbie Millman. There's Lisa Smith, So tell me about the input of others.

Like what made it easier what made it possible for you to make this? Because a book is an arduous process to make, and it's a long one. it can test you, and obviously doing it with friends,

what was it like?

James Martin: Yeah. There's probably twofold to this, the- or threefold. Selfishly, I love other people and I love my friends, and so I wanna try and get them involved as much as possible. there's secondly, I think one perspective is okay. I think when you can have multiple perspectives from different people in a kind of, similar space, associated space or whatever you call, I can't quite think of the word right now, but,is better.

 And for me it's also access. Like there's not many people who, might be able to, hear from a Debbie Millman or from a Penny Bridge or from a Lincoln or from a Hey Studio or from a Lisa Smith, president of D&AD and like all of these things. So to be able to give people a, a little bit of access to these people is massive and it also celebrates them and like, I mean, that's the main thing for me is like perspective.

 we talked about it a little bit earlier about, having many dots to connect and I've always suggested that I don't know everything. and there are many, many cleverer people than me. most of them are in this book,So Lincoln Design Co., I learned a lot from Penny Bridge.

They even helped me design the book, and they're my great friends like Carl and Paul. you've got Vero, Hey Studio, like one of the, in fact, one most, one, one of my favorite designers based out of Barcelona. And then you've got, like I said, Lisa Smith, who wrote the forward for it, president of the D&AD, and I think she's like the global chief brand officer at On Common, which is again, one of the most brilliant studios doing one of the best work.

And then you've got Debbie Millman, who everybody should know and if you don't, you should just because of, again, like for me,I'm blessed to call her a friend, as I am with them all. but the perspective, Somebody who's been in the game for 40 years almost, like longest serving podcast that worked with the Milton Glazers, the best in the business, 

And seen all these different transitions 'cause we're in one right now. The new tech transition. And she's seen print to computer. So having people, in this book who can bring their perspective to it, again, I just think elevates it a little bit from like, again, like the gobble gobble show that is like, "Oh, James is great," which he's not. 

Radim Malinic: I wanna finish this conversation with your quote from the book, and that says: "I want you to build a creative life that actually feels like yours. to wake up excited by what you're working on, not drained by who you're pretending to be." Stay sassy, as it says here. I mean, it's a beautiful statement because as you found yourself through your recent years, the more you provide for others, the more selfless you are, the more you actually try to share the information, the more you become visible.

That's more your evidence, more your perception actually is goes up. Because it's so easy through all of the ancestral reasons to feel panicky, to feel scared, to feel,insecure about what we're doing. But when we actually work together as that tribe, it's so much better because we actually learn from one another.

we accept the abundance mindset. We can also... there is stuff for everyone. There's resources for everyone. So I love how you finished the book with this, because ultimately, when you wake up, you're, and feeling your best self and don't have a scarcity mindset, but actually think about abundance, magical things happen.

So dude, thanks for creating another book. Thanks for putting it all together because I know how much effort it takes to put a book like this together. So well done. Amrad is out there. He's doing his thing. Yeah.

James Martin: yeah, I was gonna say, like last time I told you I was never gonna write another book, and here we are with book two. So I'm gonna tell you right now, I'm not gonna write another book even though I have started writing another book. it's a torture that we put ourselves through, but it helps.

It's the brain. Good

Radim Malinic: Yeah.

Absolutely. But when you say that like, obviously I want to build a creative life that feels like yours, I mean, you created a life that is yours, and it's, and everyone can see it. So I love it. And I think there was a great quote, well, it was a great joke by Stephen Fry.

He said, "Friendship is like pissing your pants. Everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth." And I can feel it with like, making books is like pissing your pants because everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth.

James Martin: Love that. what a wonderful thing to finish on. Cheers, brother. Love ya.

Radim Malinic: Good to see you. 

Radim: Hey, thank you for joining me on this episode of Daring Forever Podcast. As always, I'd love to know your thoughts, questions, and even suggestions, so please get in touch via the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, Radim Malinic. Thank you for being here, and I hope to catch you on the next episode