Eliza Williams, editor of Creative Review, joins Radim to trace a career built without connections, without a plan, and — by her own admission — a fair amount of terror. ~

From selling popcorn at the Clapham Picturehouse to writing for free on '90s art blogs, to landing at Creative Review and eventually taking the helm, Eliza's path is a masterclass in slow, unglamorous accumulation. 

This is a conversation about leaving exclusive worlds for more welcoming ones, learning that interviewing is just "speaking to a lot of people at once," and what it really means to steward a trusted industry title through AI anxiety, brand nervousness, and a generation that expects success to arrive fast.

Takeaways

• There were no obvious career opportunities at school for creative writing — Eliza found her way in through a school magazine, a degree in English and art history, and years of low-paid, connection-less hustle
• Working in a cinema or bookshop isn't wasted time — some of the best creative instincts are built while doing something else entirely
• The art world's exclusivity pushed Eliza toward advertising and design, which she found far more welcoming, open, and friendly
• Confidence with public speaking and interviewing wasn't innate — it came from repetition, and from realising interviews are just natural conversation at scale
• The most interesting part of any story is rarely the polished end result — it's the process, the mess, and the moments things go wrong
• AI is real competition for entry-level creative work, but the bigger barrier for young creatives has always been the unglamorous, unpaid gestation period nobody teaches at university
• Brands are increasingly refusing press coverage out of fear of backlash — a shift that means the industry is failing to document its own good work
• Genuine daring in the industry comes from outliers who keep pushing, not from the safe, competent mid-level work that now dominates
• Creative Review's biggest challenge isn't relevance to its existing audience — it's finding a way to matter to creatives who are 20 years old right now

Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic

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Eliza: The one thing I'd say, just to follow on from the thing around the kind of attacking of logos and things like that is I have noticed that brands are increasingly...

They don't want people to write about stuff now. We've had quite a few times where a major brand has done a rebrand and like you'll hear about it from the studio, and then you'll say, "Well, we'd like to write about it," and the client's refusing. And I think some of that is a direct response to these sorts of storms that have blown up, that they just don't want the hassle of being attacked. We've seen some of it become political and all kinds of things. I think that's a real shame because the problem is, then the industry, even amongst itself, is not documenting the good stuff that's happening, 

​

Radim: Welcome to Daring Forever, a podcast about being human, wired for wonder, capable of courage, perpetually becoming. It's about the waves that knock us under and the strange, stubborn grace with which we surface. My name is Rado Malinovic. I'm an author, creative, and an eternally curious human being on a mission to speak to incredible people whom I call Forever Daring Humans, those in pursuit of an extraordinary life.

Every week, I share an interview that is packed with amazing stories, value, and I can only ask you, 

how will you dare forever? . This podcast is inspired by my upcoming book titled Daring Forever, which is now available for pre-order out in October ​

Today I'm speaking with Eliza Williams, editor of Creative Review, one of the world's most prestigious magazines, bringing the creative community together since nineteen eighty. This is a genuinely introspective conversation about Eliza's career. She started out selling popcorn in a cinema, then working in a bookshop before finding her way into writing and journalism, often without connection, without a plan, and by her own admission, often terrified.

We go behind the polished output to the messy middle, why the future of creative publishing matters, the exclusivity of the art world that she left behind, and what it actually takes to build confidence in public. 

This is a great look at staying curious, staying honest, and daring to keep asking the questions​

Eliza, welcome to Daring Forever. How are you doing?

Eliza: I'm good. Thank you for having me. It's exciting to do a podcast again 'cause I used to do them for Creative Review quite a lot, and I haven't for a couple of years, so it's Fun

Radim: It's, fun to have you here because what you do and where you do it and who with is almost the epicenter of the creative industry because everyone gravitates towards you, trying to tell you what they do, how they do it, why they do it, and you go, "Okay, let's have a look."

for those who may not heard of Eliza, Williams, how would you introduce yourself? Who are you? What do you do?

Eliza: the simplest way is to say I'm the editor of Creative Review magazine, which has been around since, 1980. I have been there a long time in various different roles, as a writer, and then different editors along the way.

but now I'm the overall editor, the overlord, as I like to, put it.

Radim: The overload sounds great. 

before we talk about the state of the industry, talk about your work and how you do it, I really wanted to know what is the making of an editor? Like, how do you get to become one?

 I actually was always interested in doing writing journalism. But, it was a a completely alien world to me really growing up.

Eliza: my dad was in science, my mum was a nurse. If anything the more obvious kind world that I could have gone into would've been more of a science world. the school I went to a local comprehensive school, there weren't the opportunities.

I hear this a lot now when I talk to creatives in design and advertising that you don't learn about these careers much at, school, and even now. But certainly when I was at school, that was the case But I was always interested in it, and we did a, local school magazine, which I got involved in ' cause it was fun.

I went to university, and I did English and art history, and came out of university and just tried to find my way into doing anything in, the creative industries. But with a leaning towards writing, so this was in the, mid-1990s. And the industry or job opportunities then were not great, so I was just applying for everything I could see in what was Guardian G-G2 section, for anyone who remembers that time, obviously all pre-internet. And really got nowhere to be honest. It was extremely difficult.

I had no connections, and you begin to realize as you get older and you speak to people journalism, but also the creative industries that we write about at Creative Review are, quite rooted in connection, and If you don't have that just by luck or chance, you have to hustle your way through quite a lot.

I didn't do anything to do with creativity for the first few years out of university. I worked in bookshop and in a cinema for the Picturehouse cinema chain, obviously I didn't feel like I was going anywhere, but this was a time when you could actually live in London and work on a cinema wage and rent a place.

So it was a slightly different environment to now. But yeah, I didn't really go anywhere. I'm originally from near Oxford, and I moved back there to try and work out what on earth to do. And it was through that move that I got a job at a very small publishing company, 

Radim: what you mentioned, about your cinema job this is where my brain's taking me because I'm thinking people watching. What was it like to work in a cinema

and 

observe people? 

Eliza: This was in the Clapham Picture House which is a small kind art house cinema. I was selling popcorn and, doing the box office, it was nothing that glamorous, but the people who were working there were great and really good fun, and had these kind of bigger aspirations.

So didn't feel like I was wasting time really. But also Cinemas are great, you get to watch movies all the time.

Radim: the time you're describing, obviously this is mid-'90s, it was almost a golden age of cinema. so many good movies came out, and at that time, they seemed to be coming out every month. When you think about some of the classics we've had now, it's just, that must have been quite something to,

live through it 

Eliza: I've been going to the cinema a lot recently, and I feel like everyone's down on movies a lot these days, but actually there's loads of great films coming out. and I feel then, the ones that I really remember are things like Seven and Trainspotting and Romeo and Juliet, as an usher, You obviously could go and see movies all the time in the daytime and stuff when you weren't working, but you'd end up seeing the beginning and end of films or loads, which is a slightly weird... I know the end of Trainspotting, for example, really clearly 'cause I had to get everybody out of the cinema.

But yeah, it was good times. I remember that actually at the cinema we with Trainspotting, this was actually a different branch of the Picturehouse to be really specific, but they had Danny Boyle the director of Trainspotting, plus John Hodges, I think it was, and also the producer whose name I can't summon up, they all worked with Danny Boyle after this for a long time. And they came to do a talk and I have this like copy of a... Favor and Favor used to do film scripts, and I have this copy of the Trainspotting film script that's signed by them.

, And this was before Danny Boyle really... , he was, famous.

He'd done Shallow Grave, but,

he wasn't quite the Danny Boyle we know now, they were all super nice and very excited 'cause I think Trainspotting was just a great experience 

Radim: so thinking about what you just said about knowing the end of transporting really well, it's almost like, did you ever apply the thinking that I'm almost analyzing the frame by frame because it was that you were getting to understand the creativity that was presented to you? 

Eliza: with hindsight, I, would say that well, the end of Trainspotting, it's, got the track Born Slippy by Underworld, which has recently come back into fashion because everyone's mad about the '90s still. But it's a very distinctive music scene and so in some ways it was the combination of music and visuals for that, that I think makes that stick in my mind so much

Radim: You mentioned that your dad was in science, your mom was a nurse, and you could have been one of the two. Was there anything about the science that applied to you that you thought, were you ever, tempted. 

Eliza: not really. I, did science at school and obviously I was around it. But the science... Now my dad was an immunologist so the world that he worked in it was high-end science.

I can remember as a child hearing various phrases and types of science phrasing that would be used and which stuck in my mind, but it was a totally other level. The other thing I would say actually, particularly with my dad, 'cause he was also into art as well as science, he died when I was 18, I was pretty young.

But the feeling I had from him was that the type of science he did was very much a similar process to creativity, but obviously with deep scientific knowledge. But you kinda had to imagine the solutions to things because they were working on things that weren't known.

So there was this sense where you were having to theorize and try out ideas and then test them and see if they worked. He had a lab. I would go into his lab. In his lab there would be rats and things, which I didn't understand at the time what that implied, but obviously now you see that slightly differently.

They were very well looked after, I would hasten to add. he was working on experimental science. And there were some parallels of that, and the fact that he was interested in art as well, which isn't always the case in the science world that I've come across since. But he always had this kind of passion for art as well.

There was this sense in which those things weren't entirely separate as they sometimes can be perceived to

be. 

Radim: yeah, I guess no one really dreams about becoming im-immunologists 

Eliza: Well, I don't know, since COVID maybe, right? 'Cause the funny thing for me is that my dad died in 1992, so obviously, a long time ago for, this. But there's so much talk about immunology and some of the things that he was actually involved in have come up in the COVID era particularly.

So, maybe that sparked a whole passion for it that wasn't there.

Radim: you mentioned that you were at younger age you were interested in writing, and I wanna find out where did that passion or that interest came from. what were you reading? what was surrounding you? Because as you said, before the cinema you find yourself in a bookshop as well, and I just kinda wanna know where did words come into your life?

Eliza: Yeah. Bookshop, another great job to do when you're young, because, if you're into books, it's a very pleasant environment. Well, I guess I read a lot myself. I mean, not always very highbrow stuff, but I always liked reading. When I was a real child, there were authors like Roald Dahl, he has a complicated image nowadays.

But in terms of wordsmith and this magic of words and conjuring up imaginative worlds, he was, the master doing that. All that phrasing very much stuck with me. And then I think another thing would've been, through music. as a family, we listened to quite a lot of Bob Dylan when I was a kid, words from him really stuck with me.

I wouldn't say that any of this was massively conscious. Like, it It wasn't like I sat down sometimes when I talk to, say, illustrators or artists in particular, they will be like, "I was constantly drawing and I was constantly doing stuff," and I wouldn't say that was something that I was doing.

It was just something I liked and enjoyed and was interested in,

Radim: Sounds like just a life input really. Life inputs that just happen, right? It's just you don't overanalyze them obviously there was also I I believe in your life, people like David Byrne and Bjork, just it was just influences that just happened.

And I think at that time that you're describing it was just magical, the mid-'90s with everything happening, not just in the cinema, but everything musically.

Eliza: it was, a really productive creative time although, I was in my 20s, so it life in your 20s is pretty good generally on the whole. Obviously it, depends on circumstance, but I think when you get older you tend to look back at that time, you forget the angsty, difficult parts, It just seems like you have a lot of energy and a lot of time which is less so as you get older and get more responsible and stuff. but the fact is I do think the '90s were quite a special time, and in London, again, I got very into art and at that time there was so much great stuff going on that it felt really exciting.

There was obviously all the Britarts, , Tracey Emin and Damien Hirst , and a really wide group of people. But they were doing experimental things that felt very different. it felt very exciting. Because London at that time was certainly not what it's like now, there was a lot of spaces that were empty, a lot of warehouses that were empty in the east of London.

galleries would put on big experimental exhibitions at that time they were really exciting and interesting. so, I first started doing more writing around art really. The little publishing company I joined was actually run by someone called Will Gompertz,

who He ended up being quite famous as the BBC arts editor. But at that time he was doing publishing in magazines. That was a massive stroke of luck for me because he was really encouraging and enthusiastic and, all the energy you see from Will in TV and stuff like that is very much who he is and he really gave me a go at a time when I didn't have a lot of stuff on my CV.

So, that was a massive piece of luck and we, got on very well, do get on very well. And He supported me a lot. and so I was He set up a magazine that's, long ago went bust but I worked doing, looking for artists to feature in that and going to lots of exhibitions and it was a great period for that.

Radim: when you now mention that you've gone and worked with Will and started reviewing art, what did that feel like? the reason why I ask this, because artists have a lot of opinions about their work. Obviously, they, spend a lot of time projecting their expression into the work, then you get someone like yourself or somebody else going and volunteering their opinions and, observing the work.

did it ever feel like that you needed to justify your place, or did it feel like that you're doing something which is exciting and you didn't have that-- Let's be honest, imposter syndrome wasn't invented in mid-'90s, ? We just did stuff. What did it feel like, that transition from, going into writing this stuff about people who potentially sometimes were quite established and potentially could bite back if if they didn't like what, what you were writing?

Eliza: I was terrified there's lots of different things that were difficult. there's a lot of social anxiety about going up ' cause you could go to openings, and they were pretty free and open, but it was a, small world, and it was a relatively closed world, the art world.

And this wasn't really the artists actually, it's more just the gallery world. And I would say it was more open then than it is now because I think it's even more the realm of wealthy now in... which feels like a bit of a shame. London wasn't as sprawling as it is now, and you could be anyone and rock up to something, and it would be okay.

But I wasn't like somebody that was massively comfortable doing that, so it always took a bit of a deep breath to do it. And then in terms of the writing, I didn't really get a lot of people hating on me, I think if you write for the nationals or you're in a very high-profile art magazine and you're that established name, then there's a lot more pressure on you, I think.

 But, The magazine we were doing wasn't really that big. It was growing, I wrote for a bunch of other magazines, like I wrote for Flash Art, which is a Italian-based art magazine, but published in English. a bunch of blogs.

There were a lot of blogs at that time, and a lot of the time you were just writing for free, which, I feel is a whole other topic really. But at that time, that was really the only option to get your, name in print. in the nicest possible way, I wouldn't say there was massive amounts of editorial standards going on with that.

I mean, some magazines did. I did write for bigger magazines that would be more, critical about what you wrote and push back sometimes. but I think a lot of the time it was just getting stuff published. And to a certain extent, there's still an element of that in all magazines that people just wanna see their stuff being written about, And I think the thing with the blogs and things at that time is it was reaching different audiences. There's obviously moments where I look back on things and cringe horrendously, which I would say is probably everybody's youth career experiences.

Radim: It's part of everyone's journey, isn't it? having stuff that you look back and go, "I can't believe I did that." Well, when I did that, I thought I was the superhero, 

but I really liked your honesty when you said you were terrified and your social anxiety when you were, go into these rooms and talk to people, because that generally is almost everyone's arc.

Like, no one has that confidence of a serial killer

Eliza: actually some people I think maybe do, 

Radim: How long did it take you to actually overcome this, to feel confident in what you do?

Eliza: Oh, I mean, a a long time really. it depends though, because I joined Creative Review. I shifted away from art and more out of circumstance, like what kind of work was available and I ended up going more towards the advertising and design world which I really loved actually, because the difficulty I had with the art world is it did really feel like an exclusive environment, and I never felt entirely myself there.

The artists were great, and I really enjoyed interviewing artists. But the structures around the art world, I found a little out of place. even though it meant sort of leaving behind writing so much about art, which I did love, I really enjoyed going into the more commercial creative sector 'cause I feel it was much more welcoming and interesting and friendly actually, compared to the art world.

So that happened. You were asking me about confidence. it just happened over time. There's certain things in terms of writing, I think that happened quicker. I used to absolutely hate public speaking and I used to find it totally terrifying. and I really actively avoided doing it for quite a lot of my early career.

even though I'm quite an extrovert person, but it just intimidated me immensely. And I can't remember exactly what shifted with that, but it was essentially just being forced to do it, then realizing that actually it's, not massively different to just speaking to people. It's just speaking to a lot of people at once.

But if you go into it thinking of it like that, that you're not actually having to perform, you're just doing what you do. And by that point, I'd interviewed lots of people I think the key thing was learning how to ask people questions and have natural conversations, and that way you got much more from people in interview terms, 

Radim: I love that. I think the ability to ask questions, I think it's , when you're a people person, you don't have to prepare questions. You just find out, which you, start opening the doors in a conversation and see where it goes. And I love this clip. There's a clip of Alain de Botton speaking to someone, and he says, you know, are people in life who make you feel really interesting, and there are people in life who make you feel really boring.

Because the people who you open up to, you trust them because you feel that they've already worked on themselves. They've got their depth. they've, found out who they are, what they want, , how how they express themselves. And then you get people who are not that, they're just at a more surface level.

And I think when you, observe the society and when you're trying to find out more about yourself, then it's easier to connect with people. It's actually much nicer because you accepted yourself who you are. What people might be thinking about you doesn't matter, and actually you just enjoy the journey.

Because I think the best conversations ever are, they're just ask all the questions you can think of. And my kids sometimes would hate it because I would ask Uber drivers about their lives. They're like: "Why are you doing this?" I'm like: "Because they feel seen, they feel, they feel heard." 

 think that's the 

general curiosity. 

Eliza: I, think everyone you talk to is interesting, and you find there's interesting stories. y- like everyone you talk to will have something interesting to tell you and unexpected. But also in terms of the industry and the work and stuff like that, that a lot of the time, the things I love are getting to go behind the scenes, whether that be literally sometimes, but also just hearing about how things are made and the stories behind how things are done and, when things go wrong, 'cause they always do.

And it's all that stuff which I find really interesting and in some ways the polished end thing is, the less interesting part really. It's the whole getting there that's that's good

Radim: how did you put a podcast together in the first place? And what gave you the idea to interview more than one guest at the same time?

Because sometimes that could be called logistical nightmare, 

Eliza: we did a podcast at Creative Review called Creativity Sucks, which was supposed to be about challenges and problems. I really love radio. And reason I love radio and then podcasts is that there is a kind of intimacy with audio.

I know now a lot of people watch podcasts on video. I still tend to listen to them when I'm doing other things or walking around, and it does feel like you're joining a private conversation, which I really like. So, obviously when the podcasting boom began to happen, it was exciting, and I'd done a little bit of radio.

Again, going back to, like, I did a little bit of stuff with Will Gompertz again when he was at the BBC, quite briefly, but it was super fun. we also did a Creative Review podcast initially, which was just interviewing people, and this was before COVID, so I would actually go and sit with them with a recorder, and it was all done Almost it feels a bit analog now. When COVID happened, we all discovered the joys of video recording and everything like that, and remote recording, which opened up the landscape for doing interviews with lots of different types of people in different places And so we set up this Creativity Sucks idea, which was the concept, and as you say, I do sometimes wonder if that was an insane idea at the beginning, it's like panel talks at events, right? Where you get three people and me to talk about a topic.

I think we're doing this on Riverside. We used a different platform then, but it's very similar where you just had all the people live together, and we just had a conversation which was led by me. the hardest part about it was all the administrative logistics.

It's not the most interesting topic, but administrative logistics is a bane of everybody's life, so that was the bit that made it tough. I think we did three seasons, maybe, I can't remember how many episodes there were, 25 or something.

It was fun, but it was, as you say, I think it was more challenging than maybe this format

Radim: Well, it's really interesting what you said about radio, that you love radio. And when I remember listening to your Creativity Sucks podcast, it reminds me of the Bottom Line podcast or the Bottom Line radio show where, there were three guests, and it felt really natural to actually share this because What I find the most amazing about asking people questions, you just never know where you're gonna go next.

And having three people in a room must have been quite revealing because they potentially thought about stuff they'd haven't thought about for quite a while. Is there any particular moment you remember from those seasons that stuck with you as in, wow, that's a standout moment?

Eliza: always for me it's when people share more personal stories. And in some ways the three people format Sometimes it, really worked for that. Other times there just wasn't enough time for people to get really stuck into it. But there were a few topics, that we did we did one about politics actually, which was really interesting because we had three people who were from different generations and also different positions politically talking about communications in politics, that was really interesting. And that was inevitably slightly personal, Or, that was a topic that could've got quite heated, but actually didn't, but was fascinating because some of the people participating essentially didn't really have a strong view about what they were promoting. this was at a time of Brexit was happening, I think, and one of the people on the panel had gone on to work, I think afterwards with Boris Johnson on his campaign stuff.

I don't know if you remember, he did a bunch of like seemed quite seemed quite wild at the time, social media posts and things that all had this quite nine- almost like a early internet. they, weren't polished in the way you think of with something like the Conservative Party, and they really stood out, and I think were really successful.

So the guy who'd done that work talked about those. But other things, we did topics that were about salaries and about equal opportunities in the industry and things like that, and people would share stories that were quite personal. And it's always that kind of personal side, that appeals to me.

I mean, that, that podcast wasn't really about the work so much as about how you get to make the work and who gets to do it and how. So 

it lent itself to more personal stories.

Radim: when you look back, I think it was a perfect addition to what you used to do with the magazine because you want to know stories behind the scenes. You want to have the pub chat recorded as a podcast because that's ultimately, I think, where we grow and where we learn from one another. Because you mentioned the world of art being very, gatekept Which is obviously when you think about it, it's such a shame because the art should be for everyone, but it's ring-fenced by, the few, even though it should be for the many. And when you talk about, the world of creativity and design, which these are more welcoming and more, open, and then still, when you talked about the job hunting and it still felt, , 20 years ago, no one would tell you how much they charge.

No one would tell you what their secrets are. No one would tell you how to get clients because everyone was protective. Because it goes to biologically to our scarcity mindset that we worry about, reason why people get angry driving cars, because it's, the lack of resources, it's the shared resources.

 I feel we live in such a different time now where we've, talked more openly about mental health. We talk about how we can get clients, how we can share, because ultimately that's helping everyone. 

And we realize when you look right and when you do the right stuff, there's plenty of work for everyone.

You can invent it, you can create it, you can find it, and you can have it. that I think gives us in a situation where, there's more openness, right?

Eliza: I think younger generations are really feeling like it's hard to get into the industry now, and it's really hard to get to do the work. And some of that I think is around the question of AI, I know there's a huge amount of conversation about entry-level jobs and AI, and I think that is very real. I was at Northern Design Festival a few weeks ago, and there was a conversation from somebody younger who was asking advice for how to get into the industry, and it was clear that people really feel it's very challenging still

I agree. I think there are many more ways now, but I think maybe it doesn't feel that way. It still feels quite a closed community to some extent, which is a shame.

Radim: You mentioned something interesting about the entry-level jobs and doing the work and getting into industry. Because when you think about music, no one's gonna employ you until you really know how to play or how you write a song. Hypothetically employ you because obviously you have to really work on your expression, on your craft, on your understanding, almost like get yourself in a really good position that you are listenable or someone wants to pay attention.

And I think with some of the software manufacturers or call them vendors or whatever they might be, the focus is obviously on, the shareholder's price, on the bottom line. Obviously, they, have to hammer the, the newsworthy stuff in my opinion, about the fact that they're moving in line with everybody else, even though, according to MIT, 95% of the implementation of AI into enterprise was just catastrophically bad.

It didn't work. But we seem to be peddling the newsworthy stuff, in my opinion, that, gets everyone interested in the company's projection and their, future vision. But when you think about the work itself, have we really moved the needle so far that we have enamored or maybe confused the up-and-coming generation with the fact that creativity might be actually easy?

Because we all come from a generation where creativity isn't easy. We, know it is meant to be hard, not impossible, but, , the struggle and the process is something that gives you ultimately the reward. But now, click of a button and you can have something, 

is that giving us the gap of, learning?

Eliza: I feel slightly wary 'cause I think genuinely it is quite hard to get into companies now I was saying at the beginning about moving to London in my early 20s and being able to live in. Clapham, which it seems ludicrous now, but I was doing that on a cinema wage.

And that would be utterly impossible, I would imagine there's loads of real economic issues. But having said that, it is easier than ever to make stuff. , Making stuff is quite hard, and learning how to make stuff, you do need that kind of period of time.

There are a few people, and we do a grad watch thing, which is where we, profile new graduates, and we also generally profile quite a lot of new talent at Creative Review. And I'm constantly astounded by people's-- there are some examples that, people who are really just be able to do it straight.

They're self-taught. They've done it. They've really worked it out. There are exceptions to this. But I think for a lot of people, you do need to spend a bit of time learning how to do the work,

especially working with clients, I mean, that's a massive part that I don't think is taught at university. Like, you might be taught how to do design or to do advertising or, other kinds of creative stuff, but actually, that process of coming up against a client where you have to persuade them to, like, your ideas and understand your ideas, you have to take that rejection, which will often come from that.

it might not be anything to do with your, creativity. It's probably, just isn't the right thing for that person at that time. There's a huge amount of stuff to go, to learn when you're younger that if you're part of a company, you can learn that more easily.

And I think it's those jobs that are maybe harder to get. If you're, a really driven individual and you can do it, you can be successful by yourself. But I think a lot of people need that period. And also just a bit of a gestation period. I was 25 even maybe 26, before I got my first proper job, and that was very junior.

And I think there's sometimes an expectation that if you've not done something really incredible by the time you're that age, then you're washed up, which I feel I slightly had that at times. But I don't-- I think it's really strong now that people are expecting to come straight out of college or whatever it is, and be successful from the start, and be a creative director by, late 20s, the expectation is for things to happen fast, which often they do, but I don't know how good a thing that is, 

Radim: it's really interesting what you said, is there's an expectation. Because you mentioned not that long ago in this conversation that when you started, interviewing people, you were terrified and you had social anxiety, and that's still the same thing that happens to 20-year-olds because they haven't exercised that muscle of confidence, , you know, they're building confidence.

And now it must be quite disorientating because if you got all of your peers online, obviously you can see their numbers, you can see what their opportunities were like, who they get contacted by, who, they're working with. And I think it might feel like being left behind is so much more visible and, felt and present in their lives than ever was in ours because it felt a lot more innocence.

As you said, you can be on a cinema set or cinema wage living in Clapham, there's the saying and your mates could get place in Notting Hill on next to nothing, which obviously that would never happen now anymore.

I think there's a change because what I really wanna do now is to focus on, what you do with the magazine, and obviously as I said, you're in the epicenter of the creative industry when everyone wants to talk to you about everything all the time, and you have to go, "Oh, right.

where do we pick and choose?" But in the spirit of the show which is based on my new book, "Gone Daring Forever," how do you see the industry now after let's say, , you've been in, industry for 20 years? How do you see we've developed as a creative industry?

Are we more daring? Are we playing it safe? Like obviously Obviously everything changes all the time, but where do you see creativity right now from where you are? What place are we in?

Eliza: I don't think we're in a massively daring phase, I think there are people who are daring and with every time that I've, been writing about

ca-creativity,

 There have always been some real outliers, people who are really pushing stuff and they are somehow the people who keep it moving on.

But I think right now just in terms of the volume of work that I see and get sent, it's much less than it used to be if I'm honest. But I really feeling cautious about saying this because I hate it when people are massively down on the industry and I think it then becomes a bit of a vicious circle where everyone's like, "Oh, it was better in the past."

And I don't think it's so much about being better in the past, I think it's always been challenging and there's always been bad work. we're talking about the '90s. Yes, there was loads of great stuff going on, but then there was loads of terrible things happening as well.

And there was, loads more prejudice and you making the reference about the lack of interest in mental health. mean, that had that had clear, repercussions. So all all those kind of things were going on that were bad. But there was a sort of boom in creativity at the same time, and there was a sense, I think, at that point, that you could try stuff and it was worth trying stuff.

so going back to the present day, I feel like we're on this cusp of something. I mean, certainly within the industries that we write about, there's suddenly loads of new small agencies coming up. but the moment you're not seeing the output from those places, right?

So there's lots of stuff happening, and there's this sense that there might be a creative shift coming. But right in this right precise moment in time, I feel like I'm not seeing the work. And the work that you do see, that there's a certain cautiousness and I think brands are a, little bit erring on the side of caution.

I think that some of them have felt burnt by situations where, the public can be really savage now if you're talking about branding. I think that creates a nervousness. We're, seeing a lot of crappy AI stuff at the moment that isn't really coming out of agencies and things on the whole.

But there's just a lot of content that I don't think is enormously great at the moment, if I'm honest.

Radim: obviously seeing it from my side as a former studio owner and a creative that once upon a time must have been sending you lots of stuff that never got published. 

The, thing is that when you're in the epicenter of what you do and how you do it, obviously you think that you're producing one of the most amazing work ever.

But then in a broader spectrum, broader lens, you're just one out of many. And I think creating work that genuinely stands out, it really potentially is about the outliers. Because when you think about it now, I feel like we've genuinely hit this inflection point and plateau where even tiny studios can do really good work.

I think we've perfected the formula. I think we know what to expect. We know how fragmented the application should be, so we just tailor the content to various, platforms and, formulas. And therefore, it's, formulaic. it's predictable and needs to be predictable because most of the time people try to hit similar customers or similar, sector, similar age group, and therefore you try to understand what they might need to have, what they might need to see, and where does it stand out.

But I think perfecting this so much and, people being able to, learn from, let's say, from the bigger studios and, borrowing the ideas of strategy and execution, it leveled the playing field because you really need to do something really crazy different to, stand out or to make it memorable or to actually to create something of a change.

Because so much of good stuff is good, and it's almost brought down the, medium of where, 

what normally used to be fantastic is now entry level. And I think that must be quite hard for many because where do you push the needle? And I think, are we just enjoying the plateau or are we actually dying for change?

Eliza: Yeah. I think that's a really good point actually, because I think generally design is much more respected now, and I think there is a understanding that, almost any brand or business needs to have a solid design, So I think your point that actually the bottom level, if or the mid-level is pretty good, right?

I think for things to feel really exciting and different and to see where the industry's gonna go next, and considering that we're in this kind of period as well where there're so many ways to talk to audiences and actually the way that audiences see your stuff now is really varied as much as anything.

 there's Obviously social media and there's lots of things on social media, it's the customer experience when you're buying something. It's the traditional stuff like posters and ads and stuff like this. But all of that stuff has to make sense, and I think maybe the bigger challenge now is not about aesthetics and whether things look good, it's whether they make sense to people as an overall thing, and there's a point of view and there's a voice, and that's both in terms of how you look, but also in terms of the feelings you're giving out and that feeling consistent everywhere.

And I feel like that is a particularly big challenge for studios to do that for brands, but also for brands to take that on, because that's a lot of work. and I think the other thing is something I hear quite a lot is that people will come to a studio and say, "I really wanna be different.

I really wanna be unexpected." But then in a way, what they end up revealing is that they really wanna look similar to their competitor because they wanna feel part of that vernacular for that sector or whatever, and that actually going outside that is really uncomfortable and that's where I think strategy and, and all of that comes in as being hugely important because I think if designers and advertising people and all of, the people who work with brands in-house, whatever, if they can show to people, yes, this feels different, but the reason it makes sense is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, then I think people will take more risks and they will be more daring, I think.

But it's, really not easy. that's why 

I don't like criticizing people too overtly because I think there're so many factors,

Radim: When you think about general life right now and, work and, the status of the industry and economy, it's disorientating. I mean, it's complicated enough for you to sit comfortably and go, "Yeah, of course we can do this." Because when you talked about different reminded me of a quote, I think it goes, "I wanna be different just like everybody else."

obviously with your role as an editor of, Creative Review, like how do you see the role of the magazine and the output, obviously the, multi-channel content that you guys put out, from, online to print to, events. Is there a certain responsibility to get it right?

Because let's be honest, it's an op- opinionated industry that you serve in and the readership. How much decisions, get made with some of that in mind?

Eliza: all of it to some extent. obviously there's also trying to have a point of view 'cause I think that's the thing that Creative Review has been known for over the decades, obviously long before I was editor. it's seen as, having a curated thing, so we're not just covering every single piece of new work that comes out which, , some other titles do that.

It's more about saying this piece of work is interesting because of X, Y, Z. and that's sort what we're trying to do, and trying to find work that reaches slightly outside of the industry as well, Like our our audience is very much like people at agencies, studios, inside brands.

that's our core audience who we're constantly thinking about. But also trying to think about how these pieces of work segue with culture how they impact culture, because because people really care about brands, and you see that when people react to a logo change, , sometimes it takes me by surprise

That just evidence that these things do matter to people, and they do impact culture in a way that other forms of culture do. there's, that element to it, and trying to just find good stories, tell the insider stuff that we've been talking about, the people stuff.

 But yeah, you always think about what your audience wants, and the audience isn't straightforward anymore because the audience is-- really changing through generations. one of the biggest challenge for us, and I would imagine all, industry titles, is how do you get younger creatives to, care about you and to be interested in you?

And it's enormous challenge.

Radim: That's very interesting. Would you say that's a part of a strategy? Because I found through my written work, through a podcast, you know, I wanted to appeal to a broader spectrum of people, especially let's say, let's look at the younger audiences. And then you realize you're speaking to people of your own age.

You realize that the people who create the work are the people who are actually most engaged with and potentially might have preset habits in actually reading stuff and looking into this. Because it's changing when you think about what we did, , 20 years ago and what we read and how we consumed stuff.

Obviously, that's changing now. But I think you kind of stay with your, I was gonna say tribe, but you stay with your generation. And appealing to younger people is almost like you have to find them or meet them where they are. I remember The very first time I've seen Creative Review in print, I moved to England 26 years ago, and I think that was 22, 24 years ago when I've seen it.

 I was like, "I want to do this. This is the thing." , I was absolutely obsessed with, how it was curated, what it was saying. And at that time, that was the norm. Whereas I think in this very noisy, fragmented world in terms of where you find your content, it's just like how you try to appeal, almost cherry-pick individual people.

Eliza: Just following on from what you said, one of the things that over the years I've worked at Creative Review that people say, and I really love is that a lot of people will say that they came across Creative Review either as a student or as a young creative in the industry, And when they've been featured in it, they say it was a real, accolade. and that's something that we do hear quite regularly. and my concern is how do I keep that going how do we as a team keep that going for the people who are 20 now?

Why should they care about us really? Because it's easier with my generation because they all know the magazine, and they have a certain idea of what it is for them as well, which can sometimes be different to what it actually is Because it's changed over time because of these things and because of the changes in the industry, and sometimes they want it to be slightly in aspect and be something that's what their memories of the industry were, and they aren't necessarily now.

it's a constant challenge. But , I think that it's not to make it all about young audiences, but you do just need to be keeping people coming through and being relevant to all those different groups 

Radim: You are in the middle of everything when you talk about the, punch-ups about logo changes. You got the work that's provided by an agency, you've got your readership, and you kinda stand in the middle watching you the bun fight going on.

What does that feel like? Because obviously this has happened within, your yard, within your space. And do you learn from it? Do you try to intervene? what does that feel like? Because people have opinions about things that you feature, that you put into a public space

basically seeing the general reactions to what was the work that has almost nothing to do with you. You just chose to feature it, and all of a sudden you see this, fire igniting under, 

the article 

Eliza: I would say the most intense period of that happening was that Before we had the website as it is now, we had an actual blog that was on a blog format where people could comment, and that was sort of just before Twitter, I guess, or around the early days of Twitter.

People were utterly savage. Patrick Burgoyne was the editor then, and occasionally he would have to come in and he would actually put a comment in saying, Be respectful," et cetera, et cetera, or we would remove comments. And then obviously on Twitter you would see that a lot. I think some of that has died away in that you don't have those forums where people do that so much. I mean, I think the design industry in particular can be extremely unkind to each other.

And I don't know what our role is. I mean, I think I think our role is to try and explain projects as well as we can 

in a way that isn't saying what they want us to say, the studio wants us to say, but to try give our point of view as well and explain it. there can be, some people who just wanna have a pop at people.

especially if people are more famous like that, it did seem to go that way, that there could be some more aggressive responses then. I don't, I don't feel I see it quite as much as we used to within our social and stuff like that. But when it's the kind of wider thing where it goes into the daily mail I just feel sorry for people Because there's nothing we can do, because that's a different sphere and it's frustrating because what you really realize then is how misunderstood the the industry is. And when you see the classic thing of this logo costs, X amount of money, and it just makes it sound as if someone has just done a little sketch and then charged that amount of money for it without all the, business strategy and everything else that sits behind it. So that's a bit frustrating. I find that just on a industry level, that there just doesn't seem to be the understanding about stuff.

I'm sure every industry feels that, right? 

Radim: you speak to anyone, every builder hates another builder, every developer hates another developer, everyone can criticize other people's work. Because I think when we talked about first about being a people person, once you have a acceptance of yourself, once you realize that what you do is the most honest work, then it doesn't matter what anyone else think of you or what other people do because you stay honest within your realm, and I think that makes everything a bit easier.

But as we told earlier, the, economy, the, you 

the, industry in sort of almost semi-permanent state of tu- turbulence, it's quite hard to be everything to everyone and also have the composure and go in, "You know what? We gonna rally in behind each other and be all okay."

Because everyone's got their own problems. Everyone needs to keep their lights on and get people paid. And sometimes you never know how you catch people in a certain moment because, even the most kindest person might have a day off

and 

that is documented on the internet.

Eliza: and in practical terms for Creative Review, we're a really small team of people. There's like four people currently in our team doing all the stuff that we do. And I think even though we try and keep everything at a certain level, like we can't cover all the stuff that we could and probably should.

We can't be as global as we'd really like to be. So There's things that in practical terms that you can't do as much. The one thing I'd say, just to follow on from the thing around the kind of attacking of logos and things like that is I have noticed that brands are increasingly...

They don't want people to write about stuff now. We've had quite a few times where a major brand has done a rebrand and like you'll hear about it from the studio, and then you'll say, "Well, we'd like to write about it," and the client's refusing. And I think some of that is a direct response to these sorts of storms that have blown up, that they just don't want the hassle of being attacked. We've seen some of it become political and all kinds of things. I think that's a real shame because the problem is, then the industry, even amongst itself, is not documenting the good stuff that's happening,

Radim: that's a really interesting insight, when you think about it, it's very understandable because, yeah, why would you be in the line of fire by, 1,000 random strangers having opinions about things? 

 Before I let you go, I really want to know if there's one thing or a couple of things that you could wish that you could do with Creative Review in terms of helping the industry or, helping people or just finding new ways of cr-covering creativity.

Is there anything like it? , Is there a sketchbook of ideas where you think this would be a great idea to have, but might be quite difficult to implement right now?

Eliza: Oh my God, they're such a big one. as a brand, we've been acquired by a different company in the last seven or eight months. we've sort of touched on quite a lot of it here is I think I would really like us to be more global to cover more work that is happening elsewhere and, ma- reflect the fact that it is a, global industry.

And I think people are really interested in other parts of the world and what's happening elsewhere and how it works there, et cetera. So I'd love us to be, more global. There's huge amounts of other stuff we'd like to do if I had another 10 people, we could write loads more stuff.

Beyond just the writing, it is the need to be in, in more formats again. So, having a podcast again, maybe having a video podcast 'cause that seems to be much more the fashion, but we'll see. and finding ways of reaching these, younger creatives and making them feel that we're an exciting brand, while also keeping all the other ones happy.

all the other ones They're the sort of biggest challenges. One of the biggest problems with journalism now, and in some ways you touched on it with being a creative now, is that you can do anything, right? We could make videos all the time, we could do podcasts all the time, we could be constantly across social, and there's an expectation from audiences that you should be that to some extent.

And the biggest challenge is how do you do those things well, and which one of those things are the things that you should be doing, like putting your time towards. Because resource is always finite, so how do we, do those things in a way that feels consistent and strong and give gives people what they want, but also feels fresh and exciting

Yeah, it's a constant, constant conversation. But I'm sure everyone is kinda having that to some extent, right?

Radim: I think to some extent I think they do, 'cause when you think about it, just like we're talking about studio owners and, and everyone who runs a creative business. we are in a constant state of reinvention, I can think of my creative arc going from designer, illustrator to art director, creative director, author.

You're constantly trying to reinvent yourself because not that you always want to do it, it's just because you need to, because what worked five years ago doesn't work now, or, it, changes or it doesn't pay as, as much. And I think that story arc of our creative careers really important to highlight because it can feel so comfortable even with your publication going, "Hey, this is working now.

What next?" Well, something new, something completely different because everything changes, especially at such a sort of turbocharged times that, , everyone's vying for attention and if someone does something new, when, YouTube started the autoplay, or was it Twitter or Facebook or whatever, everyone started autoplay and everyone's starting this because everyone's fighting for the same pair of eyeballs on their platform.

So I, I can only, salute you and celebrate you for what you guys are doing because you're still here,

and I feel you're stronger than ever. as you said, it's a trusted brand that lots of people obviously of our generation absolutely love and appreciate.

It's, it's still going because it's an honor to be featured on this. And this is something that stands for something. Obviously you value the opinions, you value the curation, it's not another punch up of a blog website where everything goes and nothing really matters.

And I think that curated, honest voice of what we created as an industry, I think it's still so important and, I hope that whatever you wanted to do, you can do to, make sure that there's a lot more good years in, creating, creativity and showing the up-and-coming generation that, we can all rally behind each other and, create work that really matters.

So thank you.

Eliza: Oh, well, thank you. That's great to hear that, and it's been great to chat about stuff here. Thank you

Radim: Thank you. 

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Radim: Hey, thank you for joining me on this episode of Daring Forever Podcast. As always, I'd love to know your thoughts, questions, and even suggestions, so please get in touch via the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, Radim Malinic. The audio production was done by Niall Mackay from Seven Million Bikes Podcast.

 Thank you for being here, and I hope to catch you on the next episode 

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