Singer-songwriter Jono McCleery shares his journey from falling asleep to his jazz pianist stepfather's music to becoming an acclaimed artist bridging folk, jazz, and electronic dance music. 

Raised with music after regaining his hearing around age five, Jono taught himself guitar at seventeen and began writing deeply personal songs influenced by John Martyn and Nick Drake. He discusses his collaborative approach with producers like Five One and his philosophy of working within limitations—preferring standard guitar tuning to explore endless creative possibilities. 

Jono reveals his process of recording improvisations first, letting melodies dictate lyrics, and protecting creative space from social media noise. With no plan B beyond music, he maintains an "endless fire" of creativity while navigating label expectations, album production challenges, and the evolution from acoustic folk to electronic collaborations that expand his audience across genres.

Key Takeaways

• Finding freedom within limitations creates deeper creativity than constantly changing instruments or approaches
• Recording improvisations unconsciously allows themes and melodies to emerge naturally before structuring lyrics
• Collaboration works best with people who already understand your music and bring unexpected creative surprises
• Protecting creative space from social media noise and external pressures is essential for authentic artistic expression
• Having no plan B strengthens commitment and resilience when pursuing creative careers through difficult periods
• Working across genres through collaboration bridges different musical worlds while maintaining artistic integrity and personal voice
• Validation comes from individual connections with listeners rather than streaming numbers or social media metrics
• Discipline develops through working with analog limitations before digital technology makes everything instantly accessible and overwhelming
• Live music needs more alternative spaces including family-friendly environments to strengthen human connection beyond screens
• Finishing albums requires setting firm deadlines and accepting that creative work evolves through compromise without losing core integrity

Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic

daringcreativity.com |  desk@daringcreativity.com

Books by Radim Malinic Paperback and Kindle > https://amzn.to/4biTwFc
Free audiobook (with Audible trial) > https://geni.us/free-audiobook
Book bundles  https://novemberuniverse.co.uk

Lux Coffee Co. https://luxcoffee.co.uk/  (Use: PODCAST for 15% off)
November Universe https://novemberuniverse.co.uk (Use: PODCAST for 10% off)

 [00:00:00] 

Jono: it's actually a really tricky time, with social media as well. The the pressure just to be constantly shouting about yourself on social media, I think, and aware of your numbers, oh my gosh. it can really, interfere with your, creativity and, and not just that, but the general noise of the world.

I think it's, often. talk about this with my partner, you really have to protect yourself now. And, so easy to get swallowed up and all the noise and all the pressure to be something to the outside world. when really, you know, you just, gotta shut that out sometimes or most of the time.

in order to, be who you, need to be. is a horrible thing as, a creative person feeling this pressure to present myself to the world all the time. So I have to, almost switch mindset to do that and then try and protect the other side of me, which is somewhere else being creative. [00:01:00]  

Welcome to the Daring Creativity Podcast, a show about daring to forever explore creativity that isn't about chasing shiny perfection. It's about showing up with all your doubts and imperfections and making them count. It's about becoming more of who you already are. My name is Radim Malinic I'm a designer, author, and eternally curious human being.

 I am talking to a broad range of guests who share their stories of small actions that sparked lifetime discoveries, taking one step towards the thing that made them feel most alive. 

 Let me begin this episode with a question. Are you ready to discover what happens when you dare to create? 

Today I'm speaking with Jono McCleery, a single songwriter who bridges folk jazz and electronic music while maintaining an unwavering commitment [00:02:00] to creative authenticity. His discography spans intimate acoustic albums and eclectic dance music collaborations, always prioritizing genuine artistic expressions and creating something deeply personal within creative limitations.

In this conversation, Jonno discusses how losing his hearing until age of five shaped his conscious relationship with sound, how his laid brother Steven's encouragement. Transform the shy teenager into a performing artist. Jono also opens up about the challenges of maintaining creative integrity, why having no plan B strengthens his resolve to make music work, and how collaborations with electronic producers expanded his audience while protecting the intimate core of his songwriting.

It's my pleasure to share with you my conversation with John McCleary. 

Radim: Hey Jono, welcome to the show. How are

you 

doing

today? 

Jono: I'm good. Thank you so much for having [00:03:00] me.

Radim: I've been looking forward to this one because I feel like I haven't seen you in person for Yeah. Quite a long time.

So it is nice way to catch up and find out about what you've been up to, what you've been doing, and I've got quite a few questions about your process, how you write, what you publish. So yeah. For those who may have never heard of Genomic Leary, how would you introduce yourself?

Jono: With difficulty, actually. Yeah. It's always a tricky one. 'cause you as an artist, as a person, you always feel like you're evolving and it's hard to, summarize it, but, um, just say I'm a singer songwriter, influenced by jazz and folk music, but also work on many collaborations in dance music as well.

Radim: Fantastic. I remember you and I met, through your brother, through your late brother

Steve. what was your way of getting into music and actually becoming what you are now today?

Jono: So, minus Steve's father was, he was a, a jazz pianist. So this is something I would've heard in the house growing up. And I remember going to bed at night and falling asleep to the sound of him playing piano. unfortunately he passed away when I [00:04:00] was six. and then Steven Adopted the position at the piano and we'd also sit there at night playing. And it was really comforting for me 'cause the music continues, but it wasn't until and then he moved out. was nine years older than me, so he moved out and he was about 18. And it was quite sad for me.

I was like, ah, the music has gone from the house. It's a lot more quiet. and it wasn't until I was about, 17 where I noticed is that old, cheap, Spanish guitar gathering dust next to the piano and just, thought, I'd like to sing a game because when I was, about, yeah, nine years old, my brother Steven would get me to sing 'cause he, he liked my.

How I was singing and that we used to sing soul songs together. And he would play piano for me, smokey Robinson, Otis Redding stuff. So with his absence, moving out after some, years. Then I, thought, yeah, I wanna sing again. So I just taught myself to play, enough guitar, a bit of guitar, just to get some, singing done.

And I really, really enjoyed it. So I just kept going with it.

Radim: If I remember rightly, were you actually deaf to a certain [00:05:00] age? Because I remember there was a story where you were coming downstairs and you can feel Steve playing downstairs

 and have I got it

right? 

Jono: until around five I think. and apparently I don't know exactly what was wrong with me, but I, did have some operations and eventually got me hearing back, and then I'm asking, what was this noise? What's that? What's this? But this is more of something that I hear about 'cause I don't really remember it much.

My, my mom and brother would tell me, what it was like for me. but it's, interesting. Yeah. And I do wonder sometimes if I was able to take a more, I dunno if it had a more creative impact on me with listening to music more consciously and not just being used to it. Always being there in the background.

 Maybe I can speculate. I'm not sure. But yeah. in any case, got my hearing back. 

Radim: Absolutely. so that old Spanish guitar.

Jono: Yeah.

Radim: now Steve has moved out, obviously you are looking at a guitar. What was the music that you listened, that you chose to listen to yourself that wasn't presented to

you every morning? what was the music that influenced you to actually pick [00:06:00] up the guitar?

Jono: I remember we had this, big, songbook of jazz songs and jazz chords. there was a couple of Bill Withers songs in there, and a couple of jazz standards that were more simple that I could copy the, tabs, these guitar tabs, little picture boxes, and I could just, you don't need to, know anything to just copy these pictures.

so I remember trying to, you know, ain't No Sunshine by Bill Withers being one of the first songs that I probably learned to, play. as I got more interested in guitar, then I started to notice it more in music. it wasn't until I discovered John Martin and Nick Drake, where that really blew my mind open with what you could do with the guitar.

And, that became absolute, obsession for me listening to their music and, yeah. I just, I still, do. I think, they're both incredible. they mess around with all kinds of detuning, other different tunings as well. I, I don't dare to go there. I, think for live performance, I don't wanna be messing around with tunings.

And, I also enjoy the. puzzle of standard tuning. I think it's an endless puzzle. And I I like the, challenge of that, trying to explore [00:07:00] new sounds and new voicings with the same standard tuning, I keep going with that and that's how I go. Yeah.

Radim: This is an interesting one because this is actually, I was gonna ask you about, unusual tuning as someone who can only play guitar in a standard tuning or potentially like in a drop d and this, is as far as I

can go. And I remember people Fing for example, says look, I play in a non-standard tuning because I don't wanna sound like

everybody else, but what I like when you say, you know what, it's a puzzle.

Jono: (Radim cuts out by himself) this is this is a great subject as well. if you. wanna talk about creativity as well, because, yeah. I think it's too easy to sound different if you change your instrument. And I've seen many performers who have all kinds of tricks and gimmicks and toys on stage, and yeah, they sound different, but they need all this help to sound different now.

I, I think it's much healthier creatively to attempt to sound original, with just normal instruments. if you can, I think that's the way to go. Yeah. everyone's different, some people that maybe that's part of their creative journey to just completely change the instruments and everything.

for me, I, prefer to keep [00:08:00] things dead simple. and I feel like I see things more clearly for what they are.

Radim: I think there's a great phrase in, there's a freedom in limitations because I remember being a big fan of band called Sound Garden, and they pretty much changed the guitar for every song they used to have, math tuning, triple C and whatever. what, how,

what, it sounded heavy, it sounded big and that was the thing what they did.

But as you said, to sound like that you need a lot of help, you need a lot of people behind the scenes to actually make sure that there was five different guitars or six different guitars are all

in unison and ready for the,

Jono: That's, that's high maintenance. Yeah. absolutely limitations are so important. And actually now I remember, I'm kind of glad I got into music before technology really developed as well, because now it's like everything's so easy, to get going with recording of stuff. I had a tape, four track cassette, four track, and it was also very limited in what I could.

 Record. and then if you wanna do more than three or four tracks together, you gotta start bouncing tracks together forever. so that you had to develop a lot discipline working like this and, and I think [00:09:00] limitations is so important actually. Yeah. otherwise it can be easily overwhelming.

what's possible to do?

Radim: I think we struggled with paradox of choice. actually having so many possible options that you can do anything with everything, I think that, must be quite paralyzing

sometimes. So what I wanna do, I want to jump from you teaching yourself how to play guitar to writing your first song 

 the moment when you put or first few chords together and realize I can write my own music. How did it feel like?

Jono: I'm trying to remember. I think I had a knack, for it, to begin with because don't think we got it recorded anywhere, but I remember being 11 and even though I couldn't play piano, was still able to write songs with it so I could play enough to, write and perform songs.

and I remember showing my brother one and he was like, what? this is great. so I think for me, playing an instrument was always about trying to create something personal, not just me trying to become good at it, but actually I wanted to write something, finished and, that was mine.

 so I do remember [00:10:00] that feeling straight away with the piano. and then with the guitar, it took longer because you can't just hit the notes. You gotta, making a sound on a guitar takes a long time to figure out. but I do remember one of the first songs. I wrote was called Bet She Does.

 And it's when I first started kind of picking the strings and I thought, oh, this sounds good. And then I'm just finding new, voicings and ways to play these chords and the melodies just jumping out at me. and this, song was, yeah, the first song I think that got me noticed by a few people as well, Tom Robinson at BBC six.

I think as soon as he heard that song, he was just completely in my camp and, supporting me wherever he could. and, and I remember playing that live at my first ever gigs. I had this weekly gig in Ton at a pub called The Brave New World. I didn't have enough songs to play for an hour, so I'd just play like a few of my own.

And then the rest are like, covers Bill Withers, Paul Weller, Nick Drake covers, but yeah, I played this song and people just loved it. So I was okay, I can, maybe I can do this. And I, try [00:11:00] and build on that and eventually I could, couple years later I could fill up an hour with my own songs.

Radim: what did it feel like for you to, obviously first, as you said, you need to transfer what you've been touching with the keys on the piano as you've been pressing keys on the piano, learning how to sort of transfer onto a guitar, but then using your voice and actually putting lyrics together because it's almost like a triptych of skills, you need to sort of get from one to another and, then you sing it, obviously you write it, you write the lyrics, then you sing it obvious, you perform it feels like there's a sort of chain of

skillsets that you need to 

put together. 

What was he like to write lyrics, and where did they come from?

Jono: Yeah. lyrics is definitely the hardest part, or the part that requires usually the most discipline. very often now, I don't pay attention to lyrics until the very last stage, until I'm, assured that I'm happy with the direction or the idea in principle.

what I do more often now is a lot of recorded improvisations, and usually the melody will dictate the words that fit. naturally and the phrases that I'm singing very often. I can hear a theme, a lyrical theme [00:12:00] emerging from my improvisations, which kind of takes the pressure off me a bit to, write something.

'cause there's something there already, and it's just a question to me. unpicking it and seeing what's kind of hidden in there. And, I'm able to build, from that theme. but sometimes it can be very laborious, finishing a song and, working out, a lyrical direction, which feels, good enough for the music.

Radim: That's really interesting 'cause I was gonna ask you, what is your process like? Do you start with the melody first, you with the song and then, is it as you said, well could be sort of, sort of

gobbledygook, 

there's this sort of improvisation. I remember there was a conversation with Annie Clarke, ak St.

Vincent, and she was talking about how she worked with David Burn and apparently he was sending her demos. We were going and she's like, are you okay?

 Because he was just more or less sort of content blocking, he was just sort of putting things in there going, anything goes. And I, it was quite interesting what you say that, the theme of the lyrics and the song theme kind of comes through

that improvisation, which is just great to hear, how you do it.

Jono: yeah. think I try and make the whole process as unconscious as [00:13:00] possible. and I obviously have to be in a good place to make that happen. feel good. but the ideal scenario is, feeling good about yourself, hitting the record button and just being as free as possible coming back later, to observe what you've done and then you can start to structure it.

Radim: I wanna ask you about style temptation because 

 did you ever have that temptation to have a grunge era or like, you know, anything different? were you always on that path of fork inspired sort of fork, jazz soul style music? Or was there any sort of temptation to get a, martial amp and a couple of dirty

Jono: No, no, actually, yeah, I've always been happy with the simple setup and anything, my temptation is towards jazz and, I almost have to kind of not indulge that too much because I think it takes me away from, being accessible if you go too down, too far down that, rabbit hole.

So it's incredibly inspired by, by a lot of jazz music and jazz performers, John Coltrane and people of that, era. and I would love to play double bass for jazz music. I [00:14:00] think it's such a, a fun, satisfying instrument for me to play.

I kind of keep that as a hobby and an inspiration factor. to keep things simple for my music The other thing is also Being open for collaboration has been a huge thing for me as well. So, I think it was the album there is when I first, the first one that I released with, counter Records on Ninja Tune, and that was a collaboration with, five one who's electronic producer.

And that, was the first time I really worked together with, the electronics. I don't want to learn any, programming myself. So I, just record, I've still got a tape four track and a few dusty old instruments, and then I'll work with people who, focus on the electronic side of things.

and actually since the pandemic, collaboration has become a really, really, important part of my music now. So every week I'm working on collaboration is in, dance music, And again, when this circles back to limitations as well, I also, feel this circling back into my own music when I, write my stuff.

 I've got used to these collaborations where I have two chords or four chords and a beat. I like the puzzle [00:15:00] of this. Yeah. how do I represent myself with these limitations And it still feels like it's me.

how do I do that? So that's I've really enjoyed that. 

Radim: I'm, I'm curious now because you've really taken a few questions, from my mind already, which is cool. So obviously with your music you've got a lot of minor chord structures that sort of play homage to the jazz music. And then there's in your music, there's richness where you can explore as you say, that puzzle.

And I like what have you, I used the words puzzle throughout all this, because you can find ways of half nose and all of that stuff. Whereas with dance music, I think as you said, the limitation is there. How much of a space you've got to sort of bend things and explore and, do half

steps and that kind of stuff because is that tapestry slightly less dense when you've got on two or three

Jono: for sure, for sure. But, credit to the people I've worked with, of know who I am and that's why they wanna do something together. So lot of them have been quite open-minded. So often when I'm recording for a dance track to get me into the mood of [00:16:00] it or get me in the, the creative zone, I will play instruments for it as well.

I will work out the. Causing guitar. Maybe find a different way of playing them and maybe record some double bass and, maybe do some choral parts as well and, just really get lost in it and sort of create my own world with it, I guess. and then I'll say to them, look, I've done all this extra stuff just to help me get into it and I'll send it to them.

But you're not obliged to use it. You can just use the vocal. And, very often they use all of it. So that's been really surprising. And so actually what ends up happening I feel like, I'm doing something to Bridge Worlds as well, just to bridge the acoustic world with the dance music world.

So I have a couple of collaborations off the top of my head, one with Booker Shade recently called Save Me. And they used my guitar, which I just recorded for myself, on the final track. And there's another one, with Dorian Kraft called Set Me Free, where I've recorded double bass and guitar as well.

And it is been really cool that they've, incorporated all my ideas into their, music as well.

Radim: Do they ever push you into places where you might be feel a [00:17:00] bit uncomfortable? Or could it be creative dissonance that something could be unusual for you? what I'm getting here is a couple of interesting doors that I'm joining that there was, in your music, there's no temptation to, you know, something different or per se, try to reinvent yourself or have a, a random album. But I feel like you live in this double life, that these dance collaborations are giving you an outlet to

explore something. So has there ever been anything you'd be like, maybe I don't want to do that.

Jono: I don't think so. I think I like to work with people who already know about my music and, then I feel like there's an understanding that, they're not gonna push me into or expect me to do something that I haven't done already. but also I also don't like the idea of, people having preconception of what I'm supposed to do.

work this same way with people on my music as well. if I wanna work with, Matt Kelly with the strings or any musicians that I play with, I really don't like to give. Directions. 'cause I, I know I love these musicians already, and I, so there's this, there's a trust between and I, I want to be surprised.

otherwise I just do everything [00:18:00] myself. work with Matt because I know he's gonna come up with some ridiculous string part, which I would've never imagined. and I sort of welcomed the surprise of that. And then, hopefully I'm able to respond to his creative input and evolve the song into another level, which I didn't see coming.

And this is the beauty of, collaboration for me. and try to have a similar approach with with the dance music stuff as well. That they just asked me to come up with something and don't give me too much. Direction. And then I throw them a load of weird things and, maybe they adjust the piece a bit to fit my idea.

And then we, take it from there. And, and it's a very freeing kind of experience.

Radim: That's really good to hear because. as a musician, you can have a, deep sense of ego. You have identity, this is what I want, this is how I want it to sound, but as you said on your second album, on your first Ninja Tune album you work with, five B, 

Jono: and he pushed you to a whole new soundscape because your first album, your first, self-released album was more or less

Radim: a folk music, right?

A folk soul. it was acoustic for and through, and then this evolution happened. [00:19:00] What I'm getting from you so far, it actually, you are very open to it and you're actually happy to be taken on that journey and you

trust people. And I think that's and I use these, words on the show, a voice, like

self-acceptance. did you already sort of feel that you are happy to be taken somewhere or did you feel like you, you, were letting some part of you go and thinking, is this gonna work out or is this the right

Jono: Yeah, I think, yeah, I probably am self-assured in that sense that it doesn't matter what, genre or, production elements are happening. I'm, I feel like I can put myself in that music if I like it and it, yeah, I'm not gonna be hemmed in by, by genres or a sound.

it's more about where it's coming from inside, I think, and trying to translate that into sonically somehow.

Radim: actually, this reminded me of one of your collaboration, which is very Southampton centric at that time, which was

part-time heroes. that must have been, I mean, Toby, Ross, Laura, I mean, again, that reminds me of those really good times where Southampton, it felt like it was Southampton was on a map at that time, producing really

interesting things. What was [00:20:00] that like? Because that was more of a, would you say that was more of a sort of even collaboration or was Ross and Toby, 

running the show. 

Jono: It was quite even because, well, in terms of production, they, it was all in their hands, but I think that might have been the first collaboration they ever did, it was great because they liked my, solo stuff, and, and I said, to them. Yeah, they asked about collaboration.

I said to them, I had an idea for a song, and so I already had it this written really, with guitar, and they really liked it, so we just went, straight for it. And I think it was the single of their album. And I think, we did a live session for Charles Peterson back then, playing that song.

but yeah, production was, I knew which direction they were going with, you know, and it was already sat, the bits I'd heard already sounded really tasty. So I was like, yeah, whatever you, do, you do what you wanna do with this. I was just happy to, play this song for them.

And it worked really well. Yeah.

Radim: Yeah. I mean, realize was such a, big single, I just remember it's still, is gonna embed it in my brain. it was such a, Incredible song. Yeah, absolutely incredible. So when it comes to writing your own music, [00:21:00] you've moved quite a few years ago from London to Rotterdam,

right. And you've been very prolific and even though your album sometimes take quite a few years to

produce whenever I check there's something new that comes from me, how do you discipline yourself? how do you push yourself to actually, produce music at a time where we live in a very snackable environment, like snackable society, of people try to create catchy tunes for TikTok, the 32nd attention span but what you produce. It's very much staying true to your roots straight, stayed true to your formula. Obviously you're still very much a single songwriter, and I want to know how do you put a process of putting an album together? how does that sort of come together? Where does the, where's the seedling come from and how do you do that?

Jono: it is almost become habitual now. I don't think about it too much. it got really precarious and tricky around the pandemic. And I started to think, can I really keep doing music? since then, I haven't played live much, but luckily the, [00:22:00] collaborations, started coming in, so it gave me a, a different thing to focus on.

I don't really understand where this, this. need to create comes from entirely it kind of, it's relentless. I would expect maybe one day it dies down and I think, oh, you know, maybe I don't wanna write. and maybe I don't have anything to sing anymore.

But it's just always, it feels like a, it endless fire inside. And I just, it is become a kind of way of life to just, give myself the time to tap into it and, share these, recordings. I just really, I really enjoy the process. Yeah. It's a part of my life.

and I try not to dictate the terms or the, direction too much. and I like to see, let that unfold by itself. but yeah, don't know 

exactly where this comes from.

Radim: Well, I like your answer because you live and breathe what you do. And for the part of my book, based on this series of the podcast there in creativity there in forever, I'm trying to understand the biological truths of the responses of our brains of how the neuroplasticity works in our brain endlessly.

How when we [00:23:00] think positively, when we do that one thing over and over again, our brain is more adapted, more susceptible to those influences, those informational pieces of information that influence. And then we focus more on is therefore we produce more of the motivation to actually do this because. The reason why I asked you how do you feel about writing music at such times, you can easily, as you say, you can be disconnected to it and actually do your own thing. Or you can be like, some of the musicians who are disheartened by the fact that they're not selling albums, they're not getting the streams they should be playing because that's, Quantification of, the following. have I got enough

followers? Have I got enough plays? Have I got enough? This, it can really play with those people who are not as you said, self assured as you are because you, start firm with like, okay, this is who I am, this is what I do, and if the album doesn't do X, y, Z, does it really matter?

Because after all, what really matters is what's on the album and how it sounds and

Jono: mm mm Yeah, you're right. I mean, it's actually a really tricky time, with social media as well. The the pressure just to be constantly shouting about yourself on [00:24:00] social media, I think, and aware of your numbers, oh my gosh. it can really, interfere with your, creativity and, and not just that, but the general noise of the world.

I think it's, often. talk about this with my partner, you really have to protect yourself now. And, so easy to get swallowed up and all the noise and all the pressure to be something to the outside world. when really, you know, you just, gotta shut that out sometimes or most of the time.

in order to, be who you, need to be. is a horrible thing as, a creative person feeling this pressure to present myself to the world all the time. So I have to, almost switch mindset to do that and then try and protect the other side of me, which is somewhere else being creative.

Yeah.

Radim: What is it that you tell yourself when you feel like you, are losing towards the pressures of social media? what is it that you tell yourself that, you know what, I'm okay. I don't have to play that game because ultimately it's not the games and the rules that I've subscribed to, it is just a, outside

Jono: well, the, even though it is, difficult to get [00:25:00] paid, in streaming. I do manage to get paid in streaming, so that's one aspect that allows me to keep going, which I'm very, very grateful for. So there, there I can, check out my streaming stats and I see that, people are listening and I'm able to, support myself to keep, making music, but more spiritually, it's the validation.

You, get from people, from individuals as well, who. Just, I think it's so nice when, fans or anyone just reach out, tell you what a song means to them or how it's helped, them through, a tricky period in their life or a moment and or helped them celebrate something beautiful.

And, those things really are really important for me as well. ' cause then maybe I get invited as well to a special private event to play for people whose song of mine is really important to them as well. then I can get a grasp of that it's not just for me, it's also other people are, getting something from this.

And yeah, that's also very, important I think.

Radim: So would you say since you've been doing the collaborations that you actually expanded your listenership? Would you say that those kind of [00:26:00] collaborations brought you

Jono: I think so. Yeah, I think so. I mean, it looks like it. I love to think that maybe people who've weren't into more jazzy folk music might be checking it out because of something I've done in dance music and vice versa. that excites me. The idea of bridging those, worlds together.

And I think, music is just music. You know? It doesn't really matter what kind of is it, you can enjoy any kind of music, I think.

Radim: I think, yeah, to convert a drummer bass hat into listening to, your first album might be sometimes tricky, but

ultimately, it's still you. So I still wanna go back to singers, to write in albums because what I'm curious about. Is there sometimes of an thematic meaning behind it?

 because none of your albums are exactly the same as the one before or the one, but not

one after.

So I was just curious how these ideas and influences come together and, and

Jono: mm the last album is called Reconcile. and that one I recorded mostly I would do record my parts first until I was happy with [00:27:00] them. And then, I was send them over to 5, 5 1 and we start working together on his ideas over the top and the strings. that was a nice way.

That, that felt natural to do it like this? I think I'm now, putting ideas together for my next album, and I think I will work in a similar way with a producer called Jesse Cole Hass the Netherlands. And, he's sort of more, jazz orientated. I I could record a folk album by myself, like a, like darker, slight, but I like working with producers who can, make the sound more bigger, with the sequencing, that's when I will listen to the, the music. it's actually kind of a shame. You have to go through this sequencing process because very often by the time the album comes out, I don't really wanna hear it anymore because of, you've listened to it hundred times and you, throughout the course of recording with other people, you've listened to it thousands of times.

I don't know. And it's, hard to enjoy it at that point. but, I will, try to go on a, listening journey with the songs and try to hear the whole thing in one, go and work out what feels right and, in [00:28:00] regards of the theme, something that I would usually let uncover by itself, I don't think there's a, predetermined theme usually.

Sometimes I think, well, with the Reconcile album, there are a few tracks with five, one where I just wanted them to sound. Bigger. I knew they were intimate songs. That one I wrote for my brother called to See You again. and it sounded really, really nice with just me and the string section, but I felt there could be bit of a house beat on it and talked to five about it.

And he really wanted to, work on it. And I was so happy with how it ended. 'cause it, still feels intimate, but it sounds big as well. just, that was the goal for some of the songs to be intimate and big at the same time.

Radim: You mentioned your brother, Steve, who sadly passed a few years ago. and I've totally in you from the track list when

it says to see you again, I said, that must be about him. Did he ever get involved in any of your music? Did you seek his approval or his feedback? The kind of stuff Did, was he sort of involved 

Jono: he, he's recorded on a couple of [00:29:00] tracks on the Pagos album. It was on, the Jim nist and, pardon me, playing piano. I think when I was about, when I was starting to get into music, yeah, I would've, sought his approval and, wanted to know what he think, of it.

 and he was always so supportive as well. I him so much credit for, me being involved in music because, yes, I'm not the kind of person who jumps on stage and wants to perform for people. I'm very, my disposition is very shy.

So, I really. Needed someone like that to say, you can do this. You are great. fucking do it. And he was that type, you know, pushing me, to do my first gigs and absolutely showed me the way, basically. and in the beginning it was a huge influence. really, I think he showed me he had a band called Shine. do you remember them? Did you ever see them 

play? 

Radim: I think I saw them in Green Cellar 

Jono: that, that was my first experience of live music was watching his band Shine in Southampton and I thought they were amazing. And they, through them I discovered John Martin, Gil, Scott Heron, and people like that. And yeah, my brother really put me onto some great music when I was a kid.

 but at some point when I was [00:30:00] about, when I started writing my own songs, could recognize that stylistically we were quite different. And I was going into a more folk world and he was more acid jazz thing. he was a bit dismissive of the, of the folk thing.

learned quickly I don't need his approval now. I'm gonna go do my, musical exploration and find out what, works for me. But, he was always super supportive. always loved to see me in music.

Yeah. 

Radim: paths crossed in part-time. Heroes Dad, you know, your, folk stuff,

actually, Andy Jazz, I've really met in the

middle by, you guys performing at the same time. 

So lemme ask you. So after your first self-published album, you got signed by, a sub-label from Ninja Tube. it feel like a pressure that you signed to a label with such, weight behind them? And did you feel like there was a lot of expectations to deliver? Or was it just a sort of vehicle to get the album out and it didn't feel like you have to deliver your best work, having that sort of, I don't know what's the right word to use, having that sort of anxiety about, okay, now this is not just my own album, this is, someone else is releasing it and you know, it needs to be

Jono: [00:31:00] mm it was really exciting. I luckily for me, at that time, I didn't know much about the electronic music. So for me, I wasn't as, awestruck as some people, my generation would've been in that situation. cause they wanted to do something experimental with me and for me to work with Five one and do like this sort of James Blakey, crossover album.

 but actually being on their label I got into a lot of the stuff on their label. I was already a massive fan of cinematic orchestra. and Bonobo actually is early stuff. But then. But then, I just found out a lot more about it as I was on that journey.

And, yeah, really, the pressure was not so much on the music. yeah, I felt good that I could make, a good album for them. It was just tricky managing, their expectations and, they wanted something very specific. And so we're trying to meet in the middle with this, folk electronica thing.

And, the timeframe, it just seemed to go on forever as, I dunno how many years those albums took forever because, it kind of, it's a political situation with a label sometimes where you need to check the boxes for them and [00:32:00] also yourself. can be really tricky.

Radim: That's interesting to hear, and if you can expand on this because I think you used the word awestruck because you didn't particularly know too much about the label. I kind of grew up with the label, Lots of, cold cut DJ va, and like, it was very much a downtempo label, and they made them sort of

famous. And then some 10 years later your album comes out and I'm like, okay, this is a new era. the music is evolving, everything's evolving.

But it's interesting to hear that there's expectations, as soon as you sign a contract, things change. And was that a rude awakening or was that a part of the limitations? how did you take it on? Because as you said, these albums didn't happen quickly.

Jono: Some people can't handle it at all and they will. Throw everything out and get out of that situation. me, I wanted to overcome this, yeah, treat it like a limitation, like a puzzle. I think I wanted to work this out and get to the end, the finish line with it.

And if that meant having a hundred conversations or changing what I do slightly, then yeah, without feeling I'm compromising myself too much, you know? [00:33:00] but I think that's, also an important discipline to develop, in the creative world because it's not all, to be easy and in your, lap and in your comfort zone, sometimes you gotta, meet other people's expectations and, try to compromise and, adapt and.

same thing in relationships as well in your personal life, I like the challenge of, going through knowing that I can go through a situation like that and keep some integrity as well, and, and still be happy with the finished outcome.

Radim: When you think about it, for somebody who listens to it, who's put most likely from a, different section of a creative industry, but from the visual storytelling, visual artistry, you get a

brief set by someone who's gonna pay for something, but most, sometimes, most likely you are there again, like enabler of the idea that you provide a commercial service, but to be signed by a label and then be told, this is our expectations.

It's just well, I think it's interesting to know all the shades of the creative process behind the scenes. Like

what really happens, because ultimately that album there is, I would say it's come up fantastic. I think it's, a

really great album.

I think it pushed you. in a different [00:34:00] direction and added those extra

layers. But when you said earlier, listening to something for thousand times, how do you keep going when, there must be element of endurance and, knowing that, you know, ultimately going after a goal, which hopefully everyone's got the same, goal in mind.

Jono: yeah, it takes resilience, I think, to keep going. for me, not having a plan B is quite a good reason as well. I tried doing, rubbish jobs and it just, man, I could do a rubbish job for six months and then I'm, I got so much respect for people who can do that for, for a lifetime.

oh my gosh, I really not having a plan B and knowing that. Music is all I've got and all I want to really, live for in a professional sense. yeah, I, simply have to make this work somehow. that's my mindset.

Radim: I love that answer. I absolutely love that answer because yeah, if you've got no plan

B, you're gonna sit out a plan a very well. I mean, whatever it takes, you know, whatever resilience, expectations, ambitions, all from together. Yeah, I

love that answer. No plan [00:35:00] B 

is how you survive, your career.

But Jenna, I also wanna touch quickly in one of your albums, which was album of covers and now we talked about music, sort of dance music and, collaborations and stuff. That album seed of a with cover of

Gabriel and. When you talk about, and as you've talked about through this conversation about being surprised, doing things differently, I don't think that ever anyone will create a better cover of a Gabriel because it's so unusual, it's so odd, so dynamic. It's incredible. as you can tell, I absolutely love the version that you did. But how did you go and cover a track like this, which is a, obviously a, a huge track on a, on a dance scene. It's been celebrated for years. It's kind of one of the anthems. But how did you choose the song and how did you decide to rework it in a way, and what goes into a

Jono: Wow. Well, thank you so much. That's, that's amazing to hear. it's a quite funny story actually with that album because I suggested to n Tune that I wanted, had this vision [00:36:00] for a covers album with a string quartet. And I just think it would be great. I'd always, wanted to do a Covers album to honor some of the people that have been.

Inspired by. they sort of said, we'll support you to do the Covers album if we can make some suggestions for it. so I said, okay, go ahead. apparently they sent this suggestion paper around the whole, or email around the whole office.

So everybody's putting ideas on it. And it came back to me and it's like, got a hundred suggestions on it. And I'm looking down the list thinking oh my God. these songs. I Have The Tiger, really anthemic motivational pop hits. there's no way I could, play some of these songs.

 But, you know, I, I sat down with my guitar and I went down the whole list. and I think, the only song I felt I could cover from that was, halo by Beyonce. And I wasn't actually that familiar with, it to begin with. But then I, I listened to it and I played it on guitar. I was like, yeah, I could do a slightly bluesier version of, of this.

I think it's gonna work. apparently that was enough to appease them that I'd made an effort to incorporate one of their suggestions. And then I just got on with it, with my list. And I [00:37:00] think I maybe had 20 songs on my list, which I recorded demos for, and sent them to Matt Kelly to record, to write some string parts for a quartet for, and then I got all the, we've start to put the I ideas together and yeah, Gabriel just jumped out straight away, as soon as I probably got a demo somewhere with his string parts on it.

As soon as I heard his string parts, I was just amazed. I was like, wow, this is. Exactly, beyond what I wanted for this, for this project. it was really exciting, really exciting piece. And to hear it with strings as well. yeah, then, when we went to a studio and, Tim Kins produced it and we got someone, to play electric guitar and got the string quartet in the studio and recorded it as live as possible.

 it just felt really, really natural to play that song acoustically. I think it's an amazing, amazing song.

Radim: I mean, it's incredible. And that version, I can literally just describe it as a gentle riot, the way it just picks up and, uh, it's unbelievable. I'm so grateful that you actually, you know, made that cover and to [00:38:00] understand now that you had plan a

with the input of the Ninja Tune

office. can you just imagine, I have a tiger being done

in John McCleary style with 

a string quartet, 

Jono: no, 

Radim: but it kind of shows, it's really interesting because I understand albums as such an intimate expression of someone's, soul writing, expression, what dates, sort of, when you get that final article from a musician like yourself, you're thinking. Is there limited input? Is there maximum input of other people?

 how do these things happen? And then to know that there was a, card going round the offices and people having a sort of suggestions thinking, well, it was not their idea in the first place to be making a covers album. So then why do they have to have a say?

But then, again, potentially limitations, outcomes. fascinated

by this because you're still going move to

plan a picking up Halo out of hundred songs,

Jono: and in their defense, the Halo song did really well on the streaming services and justified the album quite, quickly. so yeah, they'll be happy with that. I think.

Radim: Well, can you imagine if you did

I Have a Tiger?

[00:39:00] It might have 

done even better. That's just a joke, but. 

Jono: never 

Radim: so we talk about resilience and patience and discipline because Pa Goats took you another four years to create it's, the albums are not quick. But how do you incrementally work that you know, that you've got your deadline or timeline or that you know that you're heading towards something? do you put out an album when it's ready or when it has to be

Jono: I'm quite good at setting my own deadlines, for a couple of the albums that I've. produced in myself. the before Reconcile it was, here I am and there you are, and Moon Lip Parade. I self-funded them when I made them. And with those, I basically I just booked the studio dates with the band to record the album.

That was my deadline. So, well not to finish the album, but to get it recorded. And that was my deadline to finish writing the songs. So there's the first deadline, and I'm not gonna wait until I'm ready. I'm gonna give myself a fixed point that it has to be ready by, and because they were quite live, those albums, it didn't take much to, it just took some, mixing work [00:40:00] to, be complete.

 with the POGO album on Intune, that was really, really tricky because we actually finished the album quite quickly. Well almost finished it quite quickly with, Royce Wood Jr. the first inception of the album was just me and him working together. we had a couple of singles out, fire in My Hands and Painted Blue, and then at some point, getting towards the final, quarter of the album Tune, decide, we want to take this album in a different direction. Now we want it to become maybe because I recorded. Age of self acoustically, maybe that was the, instigator here and they really liked it.

 which is a Robert Wack cover, the only cover on the album. they then said, we wanna make this whole album more like that, more like the acoustic one. and we're like, oh my gosh, how many years have we just added to this project? Royce, Virginia was not having it at all and wanted to get out of it.

 I didn't wanna drop the project with them. So I, finished the album with Tim Rogans and to make it more, almost kind of reproduce it more acoustic basically. So it is got this. Strange process, a strange blend of, electronica and [00:41:00] acoustic, which was not planned from the beginning and a completely, a weird process.

But, we got there in the end but yeah, somewhere in the archives a, electronic version of that album with Voice Virginia, which I'd love to get my hands on it actually and see if we can, put it out again.

Radim: I think this is the fascinating part because sometimes you hear about albums that get shelved, rerecorded, this is not unique situation to yourself. You know, a musician leaves, then, you know, they have to rewrite the parts and whatever, and I think sometimes I would love to know what that sounded.

And sometimes the mystery is actually better than on a half-baked album or album. That's just not quite right because in the age of streaming now you get the album that you love and you get to hit all the demos. You're like, this demo is a bit shit. I don't want to hit it in, in, in imperfect way, just because there might have been a couple of different notes in a

solo.

It's just I think that mystery obviously has been taken away from, musician's life. people have to be more transparent or feel like they have to be more transparent. Because one of my questions here next is that what does it feel like when you create something from yourself and then it just goes out in the open and [00:42:00] then it meets the listener, meets the fans, meet the people potentially for the first time. And what are the reactions? Like, did you ever feel like you have to adjust to the fact that the music. Is now in their hands and they can interpret it in any way, sometimes hopefully to positive way sometimes, might be misunderstood. So what was it for like for you to release music and then have a reaction 

Jono: I think in the beginning it is quite scary. you're not quite sure if, the outside, perception of what you do is gonna match at all with what you feel about what you do. so you kind of want to try and make sure you are, tuned into does the world need my music?

Do people want it? there has to be some reciprocal, rolling process for you to want to carry on doing it, you know? yeah, after some years of performing, I, I, I mean, to be honest, I had such an amazing first gig experience actually, at the LA Tree Festival when I was 17, I think.

And my brother managed to get me an audition to play, at this festival. it was so nice because I played, a small room and there was only a few people there to begin with, but by the end of the show it [00:43:00] was full. And everyone's sat on the floor, absolutely locked in and really super appreciative.

And it felt really, really magical. to start from an experience like that, so validating and assuring then think, right? I'm gonna keep going. this feels good. And it feels right. so I've there has to be some luck, I think, in the beginning that I can imagine if I didn't have a brother as supportive as, Steven was, it could have, it could have stunted my growth creatively as well.

Like, there's plenty of sibling rivalries and families and people that will shut you down or, tell you to cheer up all the time when you're playing your music. And I didn't have to contend with that, which I'm grateful for as well. 

Radim: It's great to hear about Steve Legacy and obviously what you guys had, and how he impacted your career, your music. I think it's incredible. you mentioned about life, music, and you don't play as much potentially as you would like to. where do you see the future of. Live music and actually contact with music per se. everything's changing and we need to accept the change is always gonna be present. if you could change anything and if you could sort of bring anything back, how would you [00:44:00] imagine music to be consumed more in a life space, differently. 

Jono: mean, I, I, dunno how it's gonna be, obviously, but I'm hoping that connection will become more of a thing more important everyone's so comfortable at home now, and so, online and whether it's, you know, watching series or, Texting with friends and not going out so much.

And everyone's, I'm hoping that as the, technology manipulates us to stay at home and spend money, I think, I'm hoping that, that a human connection will become more important or more necessary for us. And there will be, I, I'd like to see live music, not just happening in venues and, nighttime bars, but becoming in more, alternative spaces and spaces where children can be as well.

I think these, there are some festivals which, more family orientated and, I think it's really nice to be able to. play for young people as well and, to have, inspiration on, on them on an early age. I'd like to see live music, yeah, more accessible in more alternative spaces, and to become more the human connection [00:45:00] aspect of it to become more important as well.

Radim: Well, Jon, I don't think you can, yeah, summarize all of this conversation better than this, than to say it's all about human connection.

 Thank you so much for coming to talk to me today. it was nice to see you again, and it was nice to talk again and finding out more about the things that are not that easy to see through streaming platforms.

So it just social media. So thank you for your honesty and thank you for telling me more about how you work because I'm a big fan and I'm, looking forward to all those new albums because you've got no plan, B. uh, all the albums that come in in

the next few years, 

Jono: I will,

I will. Thank you. 

so much for having me. It's been a pleasure.

[00:46:00] 

Radim: