Johanna Augustin is the CEO of Pond Design, one of Stockholm's leading packaging design studios, with over 20 years of experience shaping how we experience everyday products. But her journey to becoming a packaging design innovator began in the most unexpected place: Stockholm School of Economics.

This conversation examines what occurs when you dare to follow your creative soul rather than the conventional path. Johanna explains how she left microeconomics and stock markets at 21, found her calling at the crossroads of strategy and creativity, and established a practice that is helping major brands shape the future of sustainable packaging.

Johanna reveals how great design emerges at the intersection of data and passion, of business rigour and creative rebellion.

This is a masterclass in discovering your place in the world, trusting your instincts rather than spreadsheets, and recognising that small details—the tactile feel of a box, the surprise copy inside a lid—can genuinely brighten someone's day.

KEY TAKEAWAYS

• The creative soul knows: At 21, studying economics, Johanna asked herself "is this life?" and trusted that feeling enough to pivot toward creativity, even without knowing exactly where it would lead
• Passion beats data: When choosing between someone who says "this is best because I say so" versus someone with all the data, Johanna chooses passion and confidence every time—that's where true innovation lives
• The intersection is your superpower: Johanna found her space at the crossroads of strategy, growth, and creativity—not being a designer herself became her unique advantage in leading design teams
• Generation Alpha changes everything: Young people doing unboxing rituals, reading romantic copy on packaging, caring deeply about sustainability—they're not just consumers, they're co-creators of the future
• Sustainability requires proactivity: The worst scenario is reactive compliance with regulations that creates solutions everyone hates; brands need to dare to be proactive and push boundaries before they're forced to
• The loop must close: Creating sustainable packaging isn't just about production—it's about understanding the entire journey from source to bin and back again, with equal complexity on both ends
• Small details create joy: Packaging isn't shallow—it's about making someone's breakfast happier, adding surprise and delight to everyday moments, creating tactile experiences that matter
• AI amplifies creativity: Rather than being threatened by AI, embrace it as a tool for execution; like Adobe revolutionised design before, AI enables more creativity, more experimentation, more boundary-pushing
• Categories can bloom: When micro-breweries challenged traditional beer design language, the entire category blossomed; the same revolution is happening in beauty, spirits, and food—design innovation drives product innovation

Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic

daringcreativity.com |  desk@daringcreativity.com

Books by Radim Malinic Paperback and Kindle > https://amzn.to/4biTwFc
Free audiobook (with Audible trial) > https://geni.us/free-audiobook
Book bundles  https://novemberuniverse.co.uk

Lux Coffee Co. https://luxcoffee.co.uk/  (Use: PODCAST for 15% off)
November Universe https://novemberuniverse.co.uk (Use: PODCAST for 10% off)

 [00:00:00] 

Johanna: Because for me, I love that it's passion, it's confidence. It's,something disruptive. It's something that someone is standing for and, I would buy that a hundred percent every day compared to the data. this is also what we, in a solid way are kind of creating and, helping our clients with, because of course, we must lean into data to help our, clients too.

 prove a point to a shareholder audience or what have you. but without the passion, without the looking into the forefront, without the disruptiveness, there's nothing. so passion is everything. And, we're even speaking about growth through creative relevance. So it all has to be [00:01:00] there. 

Welcome to the Daring Creativity Podcast, a show about daring to forever explore creativity that isn't about chasing shiny perfection. It's about showing up with all your doubts and imperfections and making them count. It's about becoming more of who you already are. My name is Radim Malinic I'm a designer, author, and eternally curious human being.

 I am talking to a broad range of guests who share their stories of small actions that sparked lifetime discoveries, taking one step towards the thing that made them feel most alive. 

 Let me begin this episode with a question. Are you ready to discover what happens when you dare to create? 

Today I am speaking with Johanna Agustin, CEO of pond design, one of Sweden's most [00:02:00] innovative packaging design studios. In our conversation, we covered a wide range of moments that have shaped her life and career so far. talked about a Stockholm School of Economics, interior design, business strategy, and even generation alpha and unboxing rituals.

 All of them culminated in her current role and experience Johanna chooses her creative passion over data-driven presentations. She genuinely cares about making daily moments happier through design, and her mission is to push clients towards proactive sustainability before regulations for solutions.

 It's my pleasure to share with you my conversation with Johanna Augustine. 

Radim: Hey, 

Johanna. So great to see you. How are you doing?

Johanna: I'm So nice to see you. How are you?

Radim: it's so great to have you here because I wanna talk about what you do.

 I wanna talk about the world of packaging, innovation, design, Stockholm, Sweden, [00:03:00] all of that stuff. So let's get into it. For those who I have never heard of, Johanna, Augustine, Bjorn or upon design, how would you introduce yourself please? 

Johanna: yeah. So, I'm the CEO of upon design. we are based in the middle of Stockholm, and, we've been around for like, more than 20, years now. I've been working together with a lot of my colleagues here for a very long time, and yeah, and I'm not a designer from start. I'm actually, I'm not a creative.

I am,or I'm a creative soul, but not, from education. I went to, Stockholm school of, economics. So. The equivalent of Oxford or, or Cambridge, the Nordics. and then I, started to study, business and economics. And then after a while I, after six months already, I felt like, what am I doing here?

21 years old and is this life speaking about stock markets and, legislations [00:04:00] and micro and economics? And then I was like, there's more to life, So I actually got, a, a job at,an interior design firm with an architect so I can go on and linger here for a long time, pursuing my career.

 And then,w with, with joining an, interior, design studio, and at that time in the early two thousands in Stockholm, this was with Peter Halen. So part of a team of super talented, creative, people who put Sweden on the map from a interior and, architecture point of view.

 And I was completely blown away. And then after a while, I went back to Stockholm School of Economics and finished my studies. But, it, it was kind of the start of, a long career, working very, very closely with designers.

Radim: So I've got questions about exactly [00:05:00] every single step. Why Stockholm School of Economics? Why did you decide to study and what drove you to it? And then how did you then decide that interior design or working with interior design is the next step because.

 I like that you said, I'm 21 years old, I don't wanna talk about stock market and microeconomics. I love that because you said you creative soul, but how do we trace those two decisions? Like first one to, to jump in, to do it, start studying, realizing there might be too much too soon to grow up this early and to know too much about economics and the interior designer.

Like where's the passion? Where did it come from? So two, two different questions. Masters one.

Johanna: Yeah. yeah. But, when you're 20, you're completely lost, right? So what do you want? What do you want to do? You don't have a clue. You don't have a clue what's out there. You don't have a clue. Actually, about the, the creative industry in particular. I'd say that's very common, because it's quite untangible in a way.

It's very easy to picture how a, a, a, a doctor or a [00:06:00] nurse is working or a teacher that's close to your heart, when you're 21. But, Why Stockholm School of Economic, it's a, it's a kind of, in Sweden, we have a very democratized school system, so it's, it's amazing for people. It's up to you and then you can study and it, it doesn't cost you anything.

And then you get, financial aid from the government. Nevertheless, how poor rich you are, everyone is, kind of picking up on that. So, it's amazing, an amazing country from that, point of view. so why Stockholm School Economics? It's actually because I'm a very ambitious person. Sometimes too ambitious.

So I actually graduated with top grades. I had top level grades in everything, from the start of the school to the end of the school. So. And the Stockholm School of Economics together with becoming a doctor is the hardest place to get into. [00:07:00] they take in like 300 students, each year, and then it was like, oh, it's the best.

Let's go there because I cannot, I can't be a doctor. I faint when I see blood. 

Radim: Would you say that was driven? 'cause you said you about, when you're 20 you feel lost and you dunno what to do. So obviously this sounds like there's a prestige. You said you about ambition. Was that decision driven by you or was it parenting sort of decision, 

Johanna: Yeah.

yes and no. I think, I mean, of course my parents been applauding me from first grade and been always very proud of me and my achievements, et cetera, et cetera. So they always have been and still are, my biggest supporters and my mother is following us on, at Pond on Instagram and like, oh, how about award?

How did it go? Et cetera, et cetera. So, it's really nice. but it's, It's an interesting question because where is the drive coming from? Because now today I have two daughters and they're, soon 14 and 10 years old. So [00:08:00] how much should I, as a parent, push my kids and how much for me it's been, it's coming from me, always.

And then my parents have supported me, and my dad always helped me with homework. And the day before a test, they, and of course they were positive of me going to Stockholm School of Economics, but didn't matter that much. I could have pursued anything else as well. And they would have been, I mean, maybe not.

 Becoming, something very, very creatively and like fluid,as parents do they want their kids very often to do something a bit more solid? Probably. but actually, it's coming from myself. I'd say. but then I didn't really understand what I got myself into at, high school.

I, studied a lot of languages and then some extra math. So, yeah, and that was voluntarily. But I studied laughing for a, for crazy [00:09:00] many hours, very strange. And then, why? And did it help me? And then today I do a lot of strategic work with finding, brand names for companies. So my last thing is actually helping me every day.

Who could have known?

Radim: it's those building blocks that we sometimes see as a burden, 

 at that time and can feel like, where am I heading? But it all comes to beautifully to the place where manifests itself as the multiples of, ideas and multiples of knowledge and wisdom that can be applicable to what you do now with your clients. what I wanted to still find out, like how did you then, or when you were learning Latin for until early hours of the morning, you were thinking, I'm gonna go and work for the interior design studio.

I'm gonna 

do that. 

Johanna: I've always also like, because I'm, even though I'm very,ambitious and, I set my goals and then I really want to achieve them. my drive, it's coming from a very passionate point of view. So I do things due to passion because it's fun, because I [00:10:00] can't resist because I love it, and all the aesthetic, the interior design, the feeling in a space has always been a, a huge passion for me.

I was reading my, my mother's interior magazines, like, when I was eight years old and kind of envisioning my house. And, also, design and fashion has always been. something that I find also very easy to understand if I like it. So I have a lot of confidence when it comes to fashion and design.

Johanna: and, it's part of, being a happy human being. I'd say same as reading a beautiful book or a film that, that makes you feel something. So for me, I feel something when I enter a space, with a thought through design.

 I wanted to ask you, where does the ambition come from? But you just literally a answered that question is, it comes from the feel like I want, literally you want to feel something, therefore you go after that thing. I love it. [00:11:00] I absolutely love it. Haven't thought about it, but I love, uh, yeah, maybe. 

Yeah. Sounds, yeah. 

Radim: I mean, I'm trying to join the dogs because what you describe Ben, it feels, well, obviously it feels almost obvious that the surroundings that you live in, or the magazines you were reading. when, when I think about interior design, it's like the number of elements is limited, right? You can make a room busy, you you can make a room minimal, but you are always working with certain limitations or certain sort of certain resources, and I think there's something so.

 Beautifully magical about the fact, like how you can put something like this together. You can inspire everyone walking in a room. You can inspire everyone buying a piece of furniture. Like it's almost universal language. Of course people would love it, people will hate it. People will choose A or B, or some people will go to Ikea, you know, to glue the MDF together. when you think about like economics in the way of the logic, how it works, and then interior design, I see those two as connected because you got limited number of resources, [00:12:00] limited number of elements that sort of play together. And sometimes in those elements, like the creativity is an option you know, you can add it to the mix.

So what was it like to realizing that, you know, let's leave the microeconomics and stock market aside for a minute and, and actually work with the people who are put in Sweden on the map with their design skills in interior design. What was that like?

What was that feel when you walk into that studio and start working with them?

Johanna: But remember I was 21, but it was like, a feeling of like. Now my life is starting. So, a very like, inspiring environment, and kind of, everything is possible. And finally, after all those years in school, I'm at an exciting place. So, yeah, a bit of that.

 And also feeling of kind of finding, you know, when you find your style and like, oh, this is, you find a puzzle in building your [00:13:00] personality. So the year before I moved to France and lived there, and it I've always loved France and Italy as well, and been living in those countries back and forth.

Radim: but I never found, it was first here in Stockholm, actually in the same, office building where we are right now. So the circle,eight years ago, it was kind of, coming to a loop,but it was, a feeling of,yeah, satisfaction and excitement. There was a guest called Corina Meyer, on the show an early part of the season, and she said it was like coming home, like coming to your creative home. Like when you discover what makes you feel alive, you feel like you've come to your creative home. And what you describing it kind of feels doubly right of like, okay, you've come to your creative home, you come to your life's home.

Like, you come to your sort of home of your soul by saying, yeah, you know, if you feel like my life is starting now, which I mean, to be honest, 21 the way we feel sensations for the first time. Ir replicable because you can't replicate it later on in life. Like whatever we do for the first time, that moment stay [00:14:00] with us for the rest of our lives.

So I'm so happy that that happened

for you it's got you, on the path where you are now, but you did, as you say, you did that sort of loop, de loop. My favorite phrase at the moment, loop, de loop, by actually going back to SSE and finishing your studies.

 What did you do after you finished your studies?

Where did you go next?

Johanna: I started, or it was actually at the same time as I was studying because at the end of,of my studies, I, I joined our marketing program initiated by a professor called Michael Dalian, and he's now one of, one of very few, professors in wealth, wellness, welfare and happiness, in the world.

Johanna: and he's. He was very different from all of the other, professors. he was wearing also back in that time, black nail polish and the rock and roll of, marketing, within a very conservative, context. So, [00:15:00] he was kind of the first glimpse of, opening up my eyes of how I could, Where I could fit in since I'm also, when I worked at this,architect and interior studio, I'm not a designer. I wasn't a designer there as well, and I never wanted to be either. so with the help of Michael Dalia and I kind of found my space in the world, the intersection between strategy,growth, and creativity.

And that's where, yeah, and that kind of space has followed me throughout my career. So, yeah.

Radim: Tell me about the first time you met Michael Tilly. I'm interested about him. I've never heard of him and I wanna know that feeling. So we talking about pretty much, if you've just realized we're talking about the first, we talk about, deciding to study, Latin studying, doing things for the first time, going to Italy for the first time, walking into interior designer architecture studio for the first time.

 What was it like to meet him for the first time? Because you said He opened up a vision that you didn't know 

Johanna: Yeah. [00:16:00] Yeah, he's amazing. You have to meet him. he's, he's very human in his way. He's very, open about, good things and bad things. he's an economic professor, filled with, tattoos. I entered, a course with him. We were 10 people that, he and his colleague took in.

And we had, a very, very intensive time of looking at, the world of business from a different perspective and angle, with a more creative mindset. So he kind of made me start, think, in a creative manner instead of in a, uh,Excel sheet manner, if I may, or statistic, manner. So opened, my eyes to strategic, creative thinking, which for me is very, very different.

And this is what I do together with my team. nevertheless, if there are, copywriters, designers, or, brand strategists, we need to think in a creative, [00:17:00] strategic way. Otherwise, we're never relevant. And then we could go home, doing what we do. 

Radim: let's, let's fast forward it to where you are today because you are beautifully putting all of these dots together. You're describing them and joining them together because I'm throughout the process of writing this book there in forever. I've been very much looking into the function of our brain. how do we understand what we do, who we are, we've been given and how to make sense of it. Because we have got, the dictionary, like we've decided that there's a meaning to certain word. let's talk about Latin again.

Uh, then got societal meanings, and then we got personal meanings of certain words and actions, right? So Let's take a creativity. There's a dictionary, meaning societal meaning is millions of different meanings because it's driven by people like how they see. Creativity for themselves.

You know, some of the most creative people are not working in the creative industry. Some of the most creative people with the best ideas are potentially, I'm gonna say accountants, but I would sound wrong. but you know, there might be people who are solving complicated problems. And then there's the visual [00:18:00] side, the written side, and that kind of side.

And it's driven by two sides of the, brain function. We've got a default mode network, which is the daydreaming, the ideas, the creativity. And then we've got executive network mode, which is validating what we created. So when you, when I put it in the side of like, okay, so there's your studio, you've got your creatives that default, and then you do executive thinking, because we need the riot to be started by someone.

 But then a few days later, we need someone to actually put a strategic thinking on this Go in. Lovely idea. Let's make it work. And I think what you're describing, I think through the ways of how you arrive at this stage is fascinating because sometimes data to create this can feel. Like the enemy. You know, sometimes the strategy can feel like the enemy, like we have gone through the age of innocence where anything goes and you know, random stuff can be anything.

 Have we made it work? Whereas now in the more strategic world, when it's, let's be honest, driven more by shareholders price, it's driven more by logic, driven by data. [00:19:00] We can find the innocent in rebellious idea and then sort of tagging them onto the strategy. Because if we start, you know, with the executive mode first, we'll never get anywhere fun.

Johanna: Yeah.

Radim: Maybe that is my, obviously I'm understanding right now, but how did you find yourself at Pond and how did you get to learn that, what you know and what you do and how you think can be of benefit to creative people and the studio per se?

Johanna: I think from where, what you were saying, like all this insights, all, all this, uh, data, I'm thinking of a project that we did for a startup company. Very, very interesting. run by, uh,a team of engineers connected to,the Royal, engineering Academy,and they, found a way on how to, grow herbs and salads in a very sustainable system. and they were really onto something and, investors were throwing money at them. And, they had come to a point where they had, a [00:20:00] produce being, started to grow, but they didn't know how to present it to people or explain it.

Johanna: and they had so much data. They had like, we started working together and they gave us, and I'm not kidding, like thousands of documents that some of them we flipped through, some of them we couldn't understand, any at all. But, then we were like, we were having like this anxiety, stress and a feeling of like being drowning in this super complex world of how they were growing these.

 And then all of a sudden after a couple of weeks, one of us in the team were saying like, but they're like doing superhero herbs. They were like, oh, we have it. so, but without all of that drowning in data, we would maybe not have found that one direction that helped us to do [00:21:00] something that actually became fun and, understandable in, in the context of a super busy, super busy food store.

so sometimes I think, or as we work, we need to dig through those, piles of analysis and sometimes with our mindset. And this is also something that Mik Dali and my, profess or professor taught me sometimes looking at things from another angle is giving you, the whole kind of reason why in a new way.

 So that's something we work with. Every day. And this is how we as a design studio, are looking at, uh, our projects and how we solve it in the context of today. and with the history of a certain brand, finding that thing that,yeah. We also did a project a long time ago. With gloves understanding how to design [00:22:00] gloves for, carpenters, for, electricians for this and that, type of work.

And we understood that, different people,different skill sets, work differently with their left and right glove. So instead of just doing a similar pair of gloves, we sold in the idea to sell single gloves. So you could, not waste, an entire pair of Glo, but buy one instead.

Save the save money and save,material, et cetera. And also kind of. fine tune it. as you wish, and this was a long time ago before all the sneakers, personalization, et cetera, that we were first.

Radim: I love that. I love that. and you said it beautifully, you said, it's a different angle, seeing things from a different angle, because it's like, how do you step out from the situation, from the problem and see it from, you know, elevated position and say, okay, what is the actual real problem?

So with pun design, you guys talk a lot [00:23:00] about actual innovation.

Like how do you look forward to the future? When did you landed on this to be one of the pillars of what you do? That people need to know the fact, what you're capable of, and actually that innovation is a crucial part of the work.

Johanna: yeah, think we've had it with us from the, start and also with upon design. compared to some other studios that has the last name of, uh, one founder, we more of a collective. don't, we don't have one creative vision. We have several. and it's also coming from, that we are very.

Insight driven in curious on innovation. we're looking into the next, we're looking into solving a problem with the help of creativity, but not from a functional perspective because I, do agree with what you said earlier, that if, personally, I would go for that person who said, this is the best, because I say so.

Because for [00:24:00] me, I love that it's passion, it's confidence. It's,something disruptive. It's something that someone is standing for and, I would buy that a hundred percent every day compared to the data. this is also what we, in a solid way are kind of creating and, helping our clients with, because of course, we must lean into data to help our, clients too.

 prove a point to a shareholder audience or what have you. but without the passion, without the looking into the forefront, without the disruptiveness, there's nothing. so passion is everything. And, we're even speaking about growth through creative relevance. So it all has to be there.

Be there, I think.

Radim: I love your answer. And, and you're right. I mean, hopefully I didn't make the person with the passionate, sort of self-initiated idea, you know, was a one that I didn't think was right. But [00:25:00] the reason why we talk about data, bring something bit of an insight, recent insight into the world of packaging, the world of retail, and how it all works in, through really sort of forensic data.

So, I work with a nonprofit organization called, future of Food, and they create these events,for food innovators, for from technology to health, to, you know, to, other sort of areas. And I wish I could remember all five of them.

Radim: And what they do, they, run a competition where people can sign up. It's a bit like Dragons Den or Shark Tank versus Ted Talk. so you wanna put your startup in the spotlight and say how much you actually creating something towards the future of food.

And you can imagine that people who made the competition out of let's say 250 entries, there's a 16 finalist. Most of them are quite well refined, you know, they've already had some traction, potentially some sort of retail success. And their work is often very, very good. part of the competition has got talks by, you know, specialists and luminaries.

And there was a person called [00:26:00] Miranda Ballard from Nielsen iq. Nielsen IQ is a company that knows every single detail of the product that's been scanned in a supermarket, so they know everything. They've beenThey've been running a long term of research from families that literally scan every single product.

 so what Nielsen, I has got, they've got data of what people buy and how they buy. So what they do, they work. Forensically with the retailers and they work on the positioning of like, how do you get people to buy into D different products, new products, you know, how they know, for example, they know to the millimeter, like how much of the ramen coke, let's say JD and Coke, how, what's the formula?

How big the logo needs to be. Like everything is driven by so much data. And then you get a person with an idea like, Hey, I'm gonna create a peanut butter cups with no sugar and I'm gonna do it because I believe in it. And then you realize, okay, where do the worlds collide? when do these two worlds collide?

Because You can only get as far [00:27:00] until you find yourself in a competition with a multinational corporation who's got all of that data at their disposal. And this is the reality of like. At what point do we need to compromise? At what point do we find a new status quo?

Because I think the independents have created so much disruption in packaging, in branding, because they could do whatever they wanted to do, rather than being told by data what they need to do. 

 So I hope I haven't lost you before all of this, but how do you see that on your side with the projects that you do?

Like how much of it is innocence and how much of it is reality?

Johanna: But, to me, I, I think it's important that both coexist in a way. and this is like from the food industry. It's interesting to see what's happening right now. That food. speaking on a macroeconomics level in a way. Food, it's too sheep. I mean, it's a stupid saying, but you get what you pay for and we don't [00:28:00] pay enough for the food that we consume.

 And it's, sad that it's, some countries it's cheaper to buy, a soda than water. yeah. But what we see in Sweden from a local point of view, for me in, Stockholm, we have a few different big,grocery chains exactly like you have in the UK or as in France, et cetera, et cetera. But now we also see, the start of a kind of anti. Big grocery chain revolution, with the new co-op starting up, looking into the ingredients in the bread, making sure that it's made from, sustainably farmed, with nutritional higher value, et cetera, et cetera. So we have one initiative from a,baker in Stockholm now opening up, chains like this.

And you have several organic initiatives in the uk. and then also what, what we see then working with a lot of [00:29:00] big, a brands, and also with private label, food brands, FMCG, they also pick up on these trends, so amplifying the trends. So if you have a positive, view on the future. Those small local initiatives are also picked off by the huge big corps because there's value in it. It's the same, like what's been going on with the organic, something that was quite unusual, uh, at a big, shop 20 years ago is now standard. So I have a very positive thing with a positive view on the future when it comes to food.

I think that we learn a lot. we want to, with the longevity trend, we want to live longer, we want to be healthier, and then we need to do something about the food we consume and, and make sure that it has, yeah, that it's actually healthy and beneficial both from, [00:30:00] our body point of view, but also from a, global point of view.

Radim: Well, you describing, and what it makes me think about is, is the passion and data. 

So

 the passion and the data, when you think about it, like we can make better choices and be, and be funded by, VCs who actually look to create a sustainable future. Because when we look back at some point and we're realizing, okay, well some people got really rich, some stuff worked. You know, pensioners were putting money into these really rich VC companies because they were again, you know, working for the shareholders price, not necessarily for the benefit.

 And we can ask ourselves like, was it all worth it? Because yes, you got your three pound chicken, but in the process somebody had to really potentially suffer. Like something had to go a different way. So I think the signaling of the future, I think is very interesting of what we could do and how we potentially influence stuff.

Because if the food was expensive, would it be less wasted? You know, would we actually treasure it more? Like, are we [00:31:00] living in the world of abundance before something happens and realizing, sorry, this go quite heavy quite quickly. I, well, but, how does this sort of future of food, future of planet influence the brands that you work with?

 Like what's, what sort of conversations you might be having with your, with your clients and partners?

Johanna: Yeah, this is, I mean, we are a specialized, packaging, design studio. So, I mean, this is a normal day conversation for us. And it is heavy, and it should be because it's actually affecting, our entire globe. So, being Swedish and everything, we're also in the forefront of these recycling systems.

So, we're actually, yeah. Further ahead. hope you guys soon, all of you catch up to us. but it's very interesting. We speak a lot about material. We speak a lot about, we redesigned the, Jameson whiskey,portfolio and, their structural bottles, making the, the Jameson, bottle, [00:32:00] tad thinner, still, heavy, premium, this, enjoyable feeling, but also saving, I don't know.

 Humongous amounts of material and, money as well.  so there are a lot of things that, can be done. Then we also get a lot of critique because we, I mean, also being packaging designers, we love this unboxing experience. And, my girls are, generation alpha. They kind of sit in front of their computer and do this unboxing ritual.

Like, looking, I, I told someone like, this generation, it's My future because they love packaging more than anyone that I've ever met, apart from myself that started to collect boxes when I was like this, very young. I all of a sudden I discovered like, I have a shelf of empty packaging.

Why? And they're like, okay, I need to pursue this a little bit more. The packaging design, it's so exciting. And now I have a, an entire [00:33:00]  TikTok Snapchat generation with me, like looking at their backpack, who's reading a romantic copy on the back of packs, entire generation alpha, amazing in my world.

 So, all of these details we need to find more intelligent way, to educate and, entertain consumers. Also find a way to do this unboxing of all of our deliveries without it feeling overpacked like, sustainably,some not sustainable, like more of a horror feeling. Sometimes when you buy something, online, you get so much,material that you just throw away.

Johanna: so how do we do that? So conversations like that we're having on a constant basis,or on a daily basis, sorry, and also. the type of material that we do select. And what, why the packaging? It's a vessel. It's from the Etruscan era. I think that's where,[00:34:00] the first packaging was ever found in the history of human beings.

Like, unearned probably for wine, and it was decorated and everything. So really beautiful if you saw pictures of that. but it was a vessel with communication on top of it already back then. So how do we do, it's a vessel to make food last longer because the worst waste of all is when we throw away food.

So how do we make it, due, longer? How do we make sure that we. Eat it all up, but not overeat. so all of those conversation, how do we protect the cucumber in the best possible way? That story, the plastic on the,cucumber, for example, well, it does actually help, life, of a cucumber.

Johanna: so all of that, it's, really, really interesting questions. Also with the layering of plastic, how to make, recycling, how to improve recycling mono material. [00:35:00] Yeah. Structural pack. what's keeping the source best? A bottle or a, box. what's best for the content?

Radim: I love what you're

describing 

because I can see you coming alive. I can see that this is your pure passion now,

and my question is how much of this is an instigation and how much of this is a natural conversation with your clients? do you educate?

Do you guide or do you already answer, answered their questions about what could be?

Johanna: this is the million dollar question because we always try to raise it and we always try to kind of inspire and help our clients to push their boundaries. And then very often, unfortunately, we give back, oh, it's impossible from a production point of view. But we do see a shift on the other hand. So we do see.

 the last couple of years we do see,a bigger, understanding. Uh,and also from reactions from, consumers and also reactions from generation [00:36:00] alpha, from young kids opening up and then they get a small beauty yard in a huge box and they go like, this is not good.

 This is a waste. And then, yes, you're right. So there is kind of this,increased pressure from consumers and also, ambitions from companies. I, I see. And also more, more clever creative ways on how to solve it. But,also, so what we always. Try to, infuse in our conversations with our clients is that please do be proactive.

Because the worst thing is when you have to be reactive and there comes a EU regulation kind of, and there's, at the end of the day, there's a stupid kind of solution that everyone hates. that's the worst, I think. So if everyone starts to be a little bit more proactive and daring, we always [00:37:00] speak about dare to do, dare to try.

Johanna:  but of course it's a challenge because it needs to go through production and, speaking about, food and drink for example. Prices are already very high. People are seeing, so yeah, in a way, you get what you pay for.

Radim: When you think about an independent. Innovators, they can start, right. 

if you wanna do things right, it costs you more. And then you've got, obviously the, the companies who are set for, do you think doing things at scale. But there's always the profit margin.

 You know, we can talk about, let's say Apple, how Tim Cook has taken over Steve Jobs and he's improved the profit margin. But in some, cases, the people would argue that he's killed a creativity. Like there's certain things that are just not as potentially as exciting as they would've been by under Steve Jobs.

 You get people like Johnny Ive in the mix who's like, who's obsessing? Like what, when he used to work there obsessing about the details and like, how do we remove plastic? How do we do this? And it's like, [00:38:00] how do you almost align these worlds? And we, again, talking about the passion and the reality, you know, the passion and the data, and know the ideas and the reality and how to bring it together.

Because when you're talking about the recycling in Sweden, which I'm, I need to, do some reading on it

 made me think of the, cycle of like how much we put in the way in the process of getting the product to the customer, right? So there's, the suppliers, there's the growers, there's the manufacturers, there's all of these slots before the product happens.

 Then someone buys it for another chain, and then it's between us and the bin. What happens beyond the bin should really be as complicated as the sourcing, right? Because you look at some of the products and. I loved when you said like, have you made a bottle of Jameson thinner? You know how you did that?

Like, because that makes you think like, okay, the, the freight, no, the travel cost might be now potentially cheaper. You can travel more. It all makes sense. And then you look at something that costs like four pounds. Again, we go into cheap products or bottle of wine, [00:39:00] seven pounds, and then there's this bottle and you're like, that's a volume of a thing.

And it just goes into some recycling. And we know that recycling is not always working as it should be. It's a start, but it's not, it should be like, how do we, I mean this is again, big heavy question, but like, how do you even think, is there like some sort of programs we need to put, like do we need to weigh out the both to both sides because it's gonna be a lot more important for us to deal with the waste and getting it back into production rather than, you know, putting all the focus on the shiny and then realizing, oh, Craig, if we've got mountains of nonsense crap and rubbish that we need to deal with.

Johanna: I was having a lecture at a conference the other week, on, design trends, et cetera, and the entire conference was actually around that. and it was Swedish based. So, and that actually, that conference, it was all about the closing of the loop, how we produce. But what, like you said, when you,[00:40:00] as a consumer, you ate your.

 Yogurt or your sauce or what have you, what do you do with it after? and that entire journey is as complicated as producing it. And in Sweden, we are on the way because of, regulations and because of people's, behavior and,o obviously nudged from, from a society point of view.

But we're on the way of, not a hundred percent. Obviously there's a long way to go, but it's a discussion that is going on and for, my generation, especially, my kids, it's a natural thing to every week go to the recycling place and. A recycle, almost everything. So, and then for all, yeah, for most parts in Sweden we also divide up food in a special container or food waste in a special container and like waste in [00:41:00] another.

So, I think it's a nudge from a societal point of view, but it also needs to be a consumer active thing because it sucks to go out in the rain and like deal with all your. Yeah. Disgusting old milk cartons, but you have to, so yeah, and being a packaging design agency, we speak about this often and how to, and the whole sustainability thing is also opening up a lot.

So speaking about inclusivity, packs that are easy for open regardless if you have two hands or one or not, et cetera, et cetera. So I think also for me, it's also interesting to look at the beauty category and see what's happening from an innovation and. Packaging design point of view there, with brands like, pleasing, like really opening up,unisex, uh,all, [00:42:00] all ages.

the shock when I, I mean, being a very open-minded person. And then I looked at the Harry Styles pleasing ad and I saw kind of this, uh, great looking older man with nail polish, and I was like, oh, that's amazing. I've all only ever seen my, old professor with nail polish before, but like opening up all of that.

So for us, that's also, part of the sustainable agenda, something that we discuss on a daily basis with our, clients.

Radim: I love that you talk about, you know, of what should be, what could be, what should be. And you talk about how the gen alpha, generation has actually got a real passion for packaging, like, you know, and what it means for brands. And you quite right in one of your oped pieces said that you know what it is.

Like who would've thought that we would see this golden era of packaging design? 

What's it like to see your daughters doing their unboxing experience? And then actually what can you learn firsthand from this generation that [00:43:00] shows you that real data in real life.

Johanna: Yeah. And also with them it's, fun because it's even, looking at them are. On how they're unboxing their beauty products or,I don't know, small, big and small. It's fun. or trying out a new soda with a special flavor. they go about it as if it's,an entertainment.

so for me that's really, inspiring and makes me go back to the office on a Monday morning like, you know what, guys? I learned this during the weekend. Have you heard of this new brand? And it's actually, when you lift the lid, it says shearing kind of, happy Monday thing.

And then so. it me be able to inspire my entire team that what we work with, it's not only something shallow, it's something that actually is changing people's everyday life. so for me, before being a [00:44:00] planner in, at an advertising agency, super fun, but like really fast and a lot of slop in a way, we're actually, in my, mind, we're actually doing something that it's, is making someone's breakfast a bit more happy.

Johanna:  someone's day with a small surprise in the inside of the box or what have you. So silly things, but actually. Important things that makes our lives a bit more entertaining maybe, or, more educational or, yeah, something, something. and also what I love with packaging design is it, it's something that you can really touch and feel, and like the tactile feeling like you're onto to like the, working with varnish, working with you can actually feel something when you're holding.

It's not just this, AI generated slop that you kind of look at and you get a headache. It's actually something that you can, you can keep, like I did, in my [00:45:00] twenties. Keep in your, shelf as a nice decoration.

Radim: You mentioned two letters that shape up the conversation around, around the globe right now. And that's ai and it's a tool, let's be honest. It's what you feed into way where you get back. And it's obviously, it's create mediocre results at best. not my words, but the words of, uh, of an AI engineer. how does AI play a role into what you do? Do you guys embrace it as a tool, as a collaborator? is it a complete no. No. How do you guys, look at AI and how does it shape your world? 

 do you use it to any advantage?

Johanna: Yeah, we love ai. I love ai. I think it's, uh,I mean, you could, you could look at a coin on two sides. Either you feel threatened by it, or, or you embrace it. I think it's so smart. It's like, from a design perspective, I mean, back in the day we did hand drawings and presented, packaging design ideas,on a, yeah, hand drawn, images.

Johanna: and then, [00:46:00] Adobe entered the scene with Illustrator, et cetera. So it's kind of the same shift here. I think we can do so much more. we can be so much more creative. We can do so much more fun. So it's all about how. How we use it. And at the end of the day, interesting. Creativity is about execution.

If it's poorly slop executed, it's gonna be crap. But if it's done with, insight data driven together with passion and creativity and boundary pushing, it's amazing.

Radim: I love the smile on your face when you say, Hey, I love ai. You know, because you followed it with not as AI slow, but there's also AI excitement. 'cause you said execution, it makes all the difference. before I let you go, since we're talking about the future, is there a view of certain industries, certain products, certain solutions that with your widened lens of looking at packaging, looking at solutions, having the wealth of knowledge of what, what has been created, what could be created.

Do you ever look at [00:47:00] any particular sector or industry and go, we need to help those guys. We need to find a better solution for that. do you take your work home? Do you think about it 

Johanna: it's also something that, I mean, when you work with a lot of consumer goods and you touch and feel them at home, at dinner, breakfast, then in your bathroom, it's a, yeah. you don't let go of work. Uh, uh,it's a choice and it's fun. 

the thing with packaging is that it needs to constantly evolve with times. Like, fashion. You don't wear what you used to wear in the eighties because that's old. So, and then even though like, just look back five years ago, it evolves. So I think it's very. yeah, it's contextually driven, so whatever small players like those we talked about in the food industry, what they are doing, where the world is going, it's chaos, it's war.

 And then there's a need for nostalgic cues and then all of a sudden, we see a huge world of beauty products with, retro, [00:48:00] nostalgic logos and we love it. So there's, that's what I feel really fascinating with this,cat industries, that we can also help evolve categories, look at the, beer category.

For example, a couple of years ago it was only like this traditional. Design language in the beer category, with this, craft beer, lagger da dah, dah, and then the micro brewery scene entered and like they challenged everything and launched whatever they wanted. And the then entire category just blossomed and bloomed.

And then we saw the same in the gin category, et cetera, et cetera. So, that's a design chain driven by product, obviously, but also the design expressions together with a more experimental view on what can be or be. So I'm seeing that in, a lot of different,categories, from beauty, male [00:49:00] beauty, I mean, is it still, won't mention big brand names here, but from racer XYZ five 0.0.

That the only thing that exists for men? Probably not. I mean, look at the how beauty, how the beauty category for women has exploded with a lot of different types of expressions and experiences, because at the end of the day, it's a personal experiences and it gives you that joy or treat or what have you.

Yeah.

Radim: I think we live in a fascinating times of for how things can be, I think we often think that life can be hard. That there are challenges that, you know, there will always be problems, but how lucky are we to have a conversation about how we can shape the life around us, how we can influence new generations, how we can do things right and do them better, because everyone's got a voice, and as you said, like data to create data to innovate, like data to do these things.

[00:50:00] it's, it's a privilege of life that we can do this because it's, ultimately. About the accountability of what we can do and how we can teach and preach by making the world better. Because it doesn't happen to us. We can happen to the world and to life. So thank you so much for our conversation.

I've absolutely enjoyed seeing your passion for what you do and seeing that sort of generalist mind with, economics degree and, and being a creative soul. It shines through what you do to work on what you guys do upon is fantastic. And knowing more about how you do it, it's, makes it even more valuable.

So, thank you.

Johanna: Thank you, so happy to be here.

Radim: Thank you.

[00:51:00]