Catharine Pitt, co-founder of Brighton-based animation duo Form Play, joins the podcast to talk about what happens when you burn out, start over, and finally build something worth protecting. ~

Catharine and her partner Mark spent years running a full-service design studio doing ad campaigns and seasonal retail work — ticking every box and feeling none of it. In their mid-forties, they walked away. What followed was two years of gradual reinvention: evenings spent relearning, slowly phasing out old clients, and rediscovering the joy of drawing. They emerged with a hyper-focused studio specialising in 2D frame animation, character design, and short-form storytelling — working with brands like Google, Patreon, and Comedy Central, while building their reputation with growth-stage startups who are still finding their voice.

The conversation covers their creative manifesto, how COVID gave them the space to develop their micro-story framework, and why they use AI only as a "stress-testing knowledge base" — never for the creative work itself. Most compellingly, Catharine explains how they license rather than sell their characters, borrowing principles from the music and illustration industries to build longer-term client relationships and a more sustainable creative business.

Key Takeaways

• The mid-forties crossroads is more common than you think – Catharine and Radim discover a shared experience: reaching the peak of what they'd worked for, and realising it wasn't who they wanted to be next
• Burning out is data – A previous studio that depleted rather than fuelled them became the compass for everything Form Play stands for: client work must energise, not exhaust
• Incremental change beats big leaps – Their transition took two years, running old and new in parallel, until the new was strong enough to stand alone
• Play is the methodology, not just the name – Form Play's approach to creation — sketch, iterate, test, publish, move on — is how they stay resilient, stay fresh, and avoid creative paralysis
• Micro stories have a formula – Start in the middle of the action; use humor, empathy, and surprise; condense time to exaggerate emotion. Their Instagram playground became their client framework
• AI as untrusted advisor – They use AI to challenge assumptions and explore unfamiliar territory in business, but keep it entirely out of their visual creative process
• Licensing changes everything – Influenced by the music and illustration industries, they separate creation fees from usage fees, giving clients flexibility and protecting the studio's long-term income
• The risk of not changing – Rory Sutherland's overlooked point resonates here: staying the same carries its own risk; creative people need to stop treating change as the dangerous option
• Distinction will be the premium – As AI floods the world with average output, work with imperfection, humanity, and emotional depth will become more valuable, not less

Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic

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 [00:00:00] 

Catharine: Yeah, no, I think it's so interesting because I think one of the biggest myths is that change has to be this big thing, but it doesn't, I mean, you know, change can be tiny little incremental steps that you take. It doesn't have to be a big, scary thing. It can be little joyful moments, things that actually, if you've had a really shitty day, you do something really small that's completely different and it just.

Reframes your day. It reframes your, ambition in that moment. it's a reset. And I think just making a habit of, challenging yourself in these very small ways. over time small habits become big habits. They stick. but I think certainly as creative professionals, you know, it's very easy to get sort of caged in your reputation, [00:01:00] isn't it? 

Welcome to the Daring Creativity Podcast, a show about daring to forever explore creativity that isn't about chasing shiny perfection. It's about showing up with all your doubts and imperfections and making them count. It's about becoming more of who you already are. My name is Radim Malinic I'm a designer, author, and eternally curious human being.

 I am talking to a broad range of guests who share their stories of small actions that sparked lifetime discoveries, taking one step towards the thing that made them feel most alive.

Let me begin this episode with a question. Are you ready to discover what happens when you dare to create? Today I was speaking with Catharine Pitt co-founder of Brighton [00:02:00] based animation duo form Play, one of the most distinctly playful animation practices in the uk. Her journey spans a career in the music industry through a first studio that had everything and felt like nothing to retraining in her mid forties.

alongside her partner, mark, gradually, intentionally and without burning the whole thing down overnight. In our conversation, Catharine discusses why the risk of not changing is the one nobody talks about. How their micro story framework turns brand voice into something Audiences actually seek out and why they license their characters rather than give them away. It's my pleasure to share with you my conversation with Catharine Pit. 

Radim: Hey, Catharine, it is great to see you today. How are you doing?

Catharine: I'm really good. Thank you, Ru. It's really lovely to be here.

Radim: it's great to have you here because you and I met for our mutual friend Joel [00:03:00] Pilger, at one of his special events called Fuse London, and I was excited to learn more about you and what you do with Form play, because It's, I believe, unlike many other studios, many other creatives, so I'm hoping that we'll cover a bit of a business of creativity. So for those who may have not had a form play or Catharine Pitt, how would you introduce yourself?

Who are you? What'd you do?

Catharine: Amazing. Thank you. Well, first of all, just to say, we love the work that you do, Reddi and love listening to this podcast, so it really is an honor to be here. so I'm Catharine Pitt and I'm co-founder of Form Play and we're, a duo. So I guess if you were to give me a job title, it would be creative director, but as there are only two of us, it kind of makes a mockery of those kinds of pigeonholes.

Catharine: we're a Brighton based animation duo and we specialize in 2D characters and story systems. we started about eight years ago and, in that time we've created animations and characters for many different [00:04:00] brands from global names such as Google, Patreon and Comedy Central. but we really love working with, companies in growth stage, startups who are really just finding their voice.

Catharine: We're pretty much obsessed with frame animation, and we love drawing. We love simplicity, and much of our work is about kind of stripping away all the unnecessary, because we really want to flavor our work, all our animations and characters with kind of humor and familiarity and all these elements of surprise.

So, that's us as a nutshell, really, just to give a, a quick overview.

Radim: so thanks for listening to the podcast. And as you know, I always go two steps back before I go one step forward. You mentioned that you guys started eight years ago, so that's from my sort of rudimentary calculations around sort of 2017. trying to think about is there ever a good time to start a studio like this?

Because I would believe, and as I'm understanding from your intro, is that, you started because you're passionate about [00:05:00] this and as you said, you know, you like frame animation. This is,this is what you do is it's 2D, you guys are, I would like to say hyper niched in what you do. What was your offer and what was your proposition?

 So

what 

made you to start eight years ago and what was prior to that was eight years ago, what did you guys do and how did you meet?

Catharine: Well, we've actually, mark and I, the other, founder, we've been working together for many years before form play. we actually started our own design agency. we were doing a lot of ads,ads for retail, sector ad campaigns. And, mark has always illustrated, and I've had a much more kind of meandering career path, 

But it really was a case of we very much played into the system with our kind of first studio, and we burnt out. We were trying to do everything. we were very small. We, we employed a few people, but ultimately we didn't really love what we were doing and. I think having come from a [00:06:00] background, especially in childhood, that was very much rooted in play and exploration and just really loving that whole creative process, we found ourselves in our mid forties at that crossroads thinking, well, we do not want to do this anymore.

 Are we too late to retrain? Are we too late to start again? And really asking, is there a good time to do it? Well, it was the only time to do it, we, it had no choice. It was something we had to do. It was like it, we had to scratch. so that's really been the,the foundation of really all of our work, of how we, take on clients now.

It has to be work that fuels our creative energy and not depletes it. and I think because we've had that experience in the past, we're very strict. We're a bit bullish about that now.

Radim: When you mentioned the mid forties and the change of path and actually not enjoying what [00:07:00] you've created, gimme a little goosebumps. I have to be honest because I found myself in exactly the same situation. Maybe there's something about the mid forties when you realize, well, we've done the learnings, we've done the enough, the experience, we've worked out what we like, what we don't like, and maybe now is the time to double down who you really want to be next. 

Catharine: I think for us it boiled down to not really believing in the work in the end goal. we don't always want to create work that drives consumerism and has got. Maybe questionable soul to it. and I know that we're all in this system and it's, there's, there's just a way of doing it.

And I think, for us, we were on that relentless, calendar of, campaigns and, data-driven, outcome-based, kind of marketing. whereas now I think we're much more into storytelling and, just finding more of a long-term approach to building brand awareness. so [00:08:00] it's much less about, quantifiable outcomes.

It's much more about the feelings and emotional depth of the work. and that is what we find anyway, really rewarding. It's always a challenge and it's something that, we find we can build longer term relations with.

Radim: I like that you mentioned the word feeling and storytelling.

You, you also said you didn't want to drive consumerism. What was that decision?

that led you to this? was it a first time experience? Did you have enough?

Catharine: I think there are only so many ways you can, sell Christmas, we've got to the stage where it's right. We've got, we've that awful lurch in your stomach where Right. We've got to do, it's this cycle again. It's September, we're talking Christmas campaigns. I feel like it's as much about, we're always trying to bring fresh ideas and really, I dunno, bring something fresh and new and, yeah, just maybe a little bit more craft, but you're still on that, [00:09:00] treadmill as it were.

So I think now, the work we do is still in that sort of system of consumerism, but. We're, we are much more about, yeah, the fundamentals of what it means to, buy something, buy something of quality, buy something with, ethics and, longevity in mind. So it's just a slightly different approach.

It's just more mindful, I guess, and something that I think as we've grown older and more experienced, we're, and I think sign of the times as well, I think it's just much more prevalent and quite rightly.

Radim: let me get back to that breaking point when you guys decided, okay, we gonna change how we do stuff. it can be quite frightening sometimes when you have, even though the work's not quite right, but if you've got regular income, regular work, regular clients, you established yourself and then you realize, I don't want to do this anymore.

 How was it for you?

Catharine: it's a scary moment. I [00:10:00] mean, we've got kids obviously we've got commitments financially. We've established, comfort And I think breaking away from that and, putting yourself in a vulnerable position is not easy. But, I think we were fortunate in that.

 Because we're our own bosses, we could control how we exited that business and how we started, retraining. it was a gradual process, probably I would say over two years where we worked a lot in the evenings at any spare time, basically really retraining and understanding, what exactly we wanted to do, where our niche should be.

Catharine: and I think we also gradually phased out our old clients so that we could start building new ones. So it wasn't an overnight rights. Close the doors and relaunch. It was a,a phased approach. and therefore it didn't feel quite as scary. And it also gave us time to play because I think when you're in that [00:11:00] burnt out state, it's as much as recovery and finding that spark within yourself again and, nurturing that and that does take time.

 you need to, really be strict with yourself and almost have that end game in mind. otherwise it's just very difficult, I think, to find the motivation and momentum to keep going.

Radim: You mentioned the word retrain quite a few times, and I'm curious. I would expect that you knew quite a lot by then, but you said retrain, so what did you even identify that you wanted to know more and how?

Catharine: Well, I think, we knew that having a,design studio that offered, an all service model. we had a lot of broad skills, but we really wanted to focus on frame animation. So Mark, obviously, having always illustrated, that focus on drawing was always there.

 And I [00:12:00] think for years we actually found that we'd lost that connection to drawing into the pencil. it was more about software and actually we wanted to, especially Mark, he wanted to really, for him, for his own personal achievement. he wanted to focus on frame animation and, that's craftsmanship.

 the very niche character 2D, skill, so. I think both of us understood that even though it was part of the industry, it was very, it was a very separate skill base and, it just took time to again, understand even in that category that's already niche. what kind of character animation, what would our particular flavor of work look like?

How could we be more distinct and different? so when I sayretraining, it's really going through a period of time where not only are we understanding, this new. goal as it were, really [00:13:00] wanting to master this new craft, which was still on the journey. it's, this isn't something we feel like, is an end game.

It's an ongoing cycle for us of play, learn, create, and I think we're serial, course takers and learners. I think it's just in our DNA now to always have that cycle of, oh, this area needs more attention. we want to learn more. We want to get better at it all the time.

 So, I suppose retraining for us is just that, never ending cycle of learning, really. but I also think that's what keeps the energy there. it's what keeps things fresh, right?

Radim: I think you've got it. Absolutely right. I mean, the learning in later life, it just seems so much more magical

But with you setting up yourselves, mark's love for illustration, and frame animation, obviously there's different strands of the business. Like what is your visual aesthetic, what you get known for, what if you got illustrators here and everywhere known for that particular style, particular characters, and what [00:14:00] do you do?

What I see, what I understand is more of a service that people come for as a storytelling service. And I think that's the sort of difference between just an illustrator who serves. their commission, they fill in the space and then potentially back out. Whereas what you guys do, I think it feels a bit more broader, wider, it's,in a sort of different, its own category.

 So

 how was it for you that you've started your

business?

COVID comes and you've got existential sort of questions like everybody else, especially from a business side of things. How did that go for a new business?

Catharine: I think for us, obviously it was a dreadful time and, very aware of, how difficult it was for so many people. I think a number of things that we were fortunate about, we're a couples, so we continued working together. We didn't have that physical separation, that I think so many studios would've really struggled with.

Catharine: but for us as well, we were able to balance [00:15:00] client work, which actually started to uptake, which I know many, especially animation studios, I think found this as live action obviously wasn't possible. many brands did fall too. maybe trying 2D animation, maybe trying animation in general, for the first time.

So it was a very interesting dynamic for us. We had this blend of, really interesting projects, but we also had this extra time that we weren't dealing with the general, the commuting, the, the general paraphernalia of life. we could really, just spend a little bit more time, developing our own micro stories and our own.

 Unique blend of,of content. And I think around that time we really went all in on Instagram and it was just really our platform for play. just no client work, no, here's what we've done for x, y, Z brand. It was really, [00:16:00] we just made this, we're gonna put it out there and just see how it lands, just see how people react, see what kind of data comes back, really.

and it was a lot of fun. it was something that, we didn't overthink. We just put it out there as soon as it was published, we moved on to the next piece. And, so we were, because of COVID, I guess we were able to create in a little bit more abundance.

Radim: That's really interesting ' cause you mentioned micro stories. What I want to

Know

'cause I'm nosy.

 what was the dynamic between.

 you and Mark? Because all of a sudden you're doing something which is ticking different boxes as a, boxes of curiosity, explore, like finding new ways of expressing yourselves.

That must have been quite liberating to have, that space to actually do something different where you're now realizing that you following your souls 

Catharine: Yeah. Yeah, I think it's, it was always our goal to have this balance. and I think just having that extra time [00:17:00] enabled us to do so. But, yeah, I think between the two of us, we've basically, we've always had this practice of sketching, sketch, booking, and where perhaps COVID times, it wasn't so much observational sketch booking, it was more visual gags and.

 translating that single frame, almost cartoon-like gag that we had in our sketchbooks that we could refer back to, and then looking at how we could expand them as stories was really fun. And it,it's really become our framework for how we now work with many clients because this, short form content that's, the whole goal of it really is to entertain.

And we were really able to understand what our unique mix of,flavors might be. So, yeah, basically creating these, having our, well we call it our second brain basically, is where we store all our sketchbooks and whatnot, all our, material and we can refer back to it. sometimes when we've got downtime we [00:18:00] might, pull that, pull that information and, and create a micro story from it.

Radim: I mean, I'm really enjoying this. This is,I'm really liking a, there's this really sort similar overlap of the experience of where you've decided to change.

it's not something that many people actually share.

Catharine: Yeah. I agree and I think, and I wish more people would, because it's quite normal. I think it's the phases of life, isn't it? As you go through, 

Radim: Because that, I remember wanting to be in the room as somebody different and it's like, wait a minute, I have got exactly what I

want. The work, The

clients, the budget, the freedom, the level of collaboration. And you realize. But this is not what, who I want to be next. And it's just like, how do you get people to, no, I guess.

No, you don't. 'cause I'm,thinking, how do you get people to realize that? I think it just comes from within, when you're describing the notebook, the sketchbook, the gags, the [00:19:00] expression. It just needs to come out. And some people potentially don't need to find it, and they're happy in doing one thing.

But the way you guys have started some, mostly an incredible business is because, it, it needed to change.

Catharine: Yeah, I think there has to be the, it has to be driven by something internal, doesn't it? it's, it would be an absolute hard slog if this didn't come naturally, as in it, it is a hard slog sometimes. Don't get me wrong, any creative, endeavor has the real, it's the pit of despair, isn't it, on that, whole graph thing.

But I think still there has to be the fuel inside that kind of, that need to just try it to know that there's something there and to keep pursuing it despite the facts that it might be tough or it might be difficult. you've gotta have that. I guess. Self, I dunno whether it's self-assurance or just you've got to really believe that there's something in you that, can [00:20:00] find something in all of this chaos.

Catharine: and I think that's what actually is, I think that's part of the joy of it, isn't it? It's all of those iterations. It's, the process of unpicking and, finding the goals in all of this information that you create.

Radim: You mentioned data earlier, you mentioned it is not, it's more about feeling more about data, but everything you described now is basically data of life. when we get older, we have more experience and we don't have to fre about a sim simple decisions because we've already made 20 or 30 of those in the past.

So, you know, you can focus a certain on certain things and you have more patience. I think this is the best part of it. you don't have to make 20 different mistakes because you've already made them before. So you go after the decision that you know, is likely to work out the most and go that way.

And as you said, it needs to come from within. But you also mentioned bit of despair, which I think quite neatly brings us on a business of creativity because,[00:21:00] what I'm getting from you. It's the comfortable awareness and self-assurance that what you guys do works. Obviously it's never finished.

Obviously there's always different twists and turns in the way of business, creativity, clients and all of that stuff. I mean, that will never change. But I'm sensing that in a world that's sort of played with people, and that's a strong word, like sort of littered with people who are worried about AI and the sort of, the whole change of the scenery. What I'm getting from your work and from you is just like, we're okay, things are changing, but we know how to play, in a current environment. So how was it for you when everyone started playing with me Journeys and all of that stuff and copying everything and everyone, how did you feel about it?

Catharine: think the first thing that I would say is, we're, one of the reasons we call form play is because it's not just about the acts of playing and creating an experimenting, but [00:22:00] it's,approaching things with a playful lens. And I think that's a really important part of being a creator, because there are times when it's, it doesn't feel playful where it's tough, and you have to build.

 a layer of resilience, don't you? but the more you play and the more you are playful, then the more you respond playfully to those moments, you are more resilient to change. We certainly haven't got it figured out. we, we might not be okay in the future, who knows? But the point is we feel that we've, at least are being true to ourselves and, are open to changing as much as we are able within our values, as it were.

 So, I mean, as far as ai, we don't use it for the visual aspects of creation. and I think more than anything it's because, as I mentioned earlier, that [00:23:00] human iteration process. So I know to create anything of worth in AI at the moment. It will take many iterations to get there, but. When we're doing it through the pencil, through drawing through that process of, just experimentation.

 There are so many offshoots and there's so much gold that comes from that we can use in other parts of storytelling. It might spark another project. it might it just creates more abundance. so that's a really important part of our process. but, we do use AI more through the business side of things.

 it's,it's more of our kind of stress testing knowledge base. we call it our untrusted advisors because, it's a really good place to just start kind of. Exploring information, areas that you're perhaps a little bit naive within. there are so many areas of business that, you just [00:24:00] need to explore and have that other voice that you can, just have it as a questioning voice rather than, something that creates,

Radim: When you say untrusted advisor, I remember once getting a business proposal with a contract and I asked Claude, can you tell me every single reason why I shouldn't sign this contract? Because I had the inkling, I had the feeling that something wasn't quite right, and it gave me very eloquent reasons, many of them sadly, of why not to pursue that contract.

And I

was like. Using AI for business or for admin operation is such a godsend in a way because it can do the basics quite right. But I always go to the fact when the Tech bros, when they announce a new software and say, Hey, now charge GPT is the level of a college student. You're thinking, all right, so that's basically an intern who knows a lot but doesn't know how to use it. is that what's happening? Is that what we've got here? Because I think we need to be reminded most of the time that yes, it's [00:25:00] getting better, but is it ever going to be actually programmed to do really,really well? as you were telling me about AI and business, I realize how much of your work is driven by your creative manifesto. Because even the step one says, be focused, not fearful. You know, step two, stop dreaming of Friday. Start loving Monday. Three, play to learn. Four, keep going. And five, choose optimism. And someone might say, that's all nice and good, but you're in a real world, but 

Radim: you've gotta prove here that it works.

Catharine: Yeah. I mean they, we are often, tweaking and adapting many things in our business, but actually I think fundamentally, even though they are maybe a little rose tinted, I think there's a lot of truth in them. And. I think it's easy to get bogged down, especially with all of the kind of difficult world events at the moment.

It's very [00:26:00] difficult to stay creative and to be inspired and keep momentum when we're faced with such, difficult news, difficult things that we have to deal with and decisions that we have to make. and I think AI and like you said, I think it's all of these tools that we've got, I think are really good jumping off points.

But ultimately, if we're going to be distinct as creators, which I think is what is gonna be absolutely vital, if we're going to, basically. Thrive against, the amount of, creating, creative work that will be out there created through ai, obviously. I think having this distinction, creating something maybe with a little bit more purpose behind it that humans can get on board.

 it's not just about the final render, the final output, it's the meaning behind it. It's why you've created it. So I feel like the, our manifesto really [00:27:00] is our, it's really the first version of our purpose of what we really stand for and what drives us as creators. and I think that follows through as well too, the kind of work that we create, the facts that.

 We're, we want to not lose that connection to drawing in the pencil. We don't want our work to look like it's being made by a machine. We want to have that inconsistency, that imperfection, that slight scrappiness. and, we think, all of these things in time, that connection, and perhaps emotional depth that we can convey through storytelling will become more of a premium for brands because obviously they also need to remain distinct and connect with a little bit more emotional depth

Radim: When you were talking about your manifesto, it just tells you how to play.

And 

 I love that.

in a, in final point, in point 21, you say, don't be a stranger to change. And 

[00:28:00] change is such a tricky subject because

we want it, we don't want it. we would like it. But what comes with it, and the quote that you got underneath from Alan Woods, it's beautiful. The only way to make sense out of change is to plunge into it, move with it, and join the dance. And how

many people

I mean, and this is

why I always struggle with

beef people in a creative industry. We should be the driver change. We should be the drivers, the tickets seller. I'm trying to make analogy of like how we are moving this thing forward. Yet so

many times you can

see someone quite

successful.

landing, you know, the 32 black, okay, this is what I'm gonna do. And you almost, you are stuck with what you have to do because that's what makes you money. And having that moment that, you know, luckily we had it on both sides, you know, and I realizing I'm gonna park it and change that throws you out outta shape.

That's, that throws you, that throws your muscle memory and makes me think of creative people who [00:29:00] sometimes create themselves their own, well, I wouldn't say prison, but like, and their limitations by sticking to what they know and not necessarily actually wanting to go beyond. I mean, you're nodding.

Hopefully I've got something right there, right.

Catharine: Yeah, no, I think it's so interesting because I think one of the biggest myths is that change has to be this big thing, but it doesn't, I mean, you know, change can be tiny little incremental steps that you take. It doesn't have to be a big, scary thing. It can be little joyful moments, things that actually, if you've had a really shitty day, you do something really small that's completely different and it just.

Reframes your day. It reframes your, ambition in that moment. it's a reset. And I think just making a habit of, challenging yourself in these very small ways. over time small habits become big habits. They stick. but I think [00:30:00] certainly as creative professionals, you know, it's very easy to get sort of caged in your reputation, isn't it?

Catharine: you don't want to fall, it would be very easy to fear changing that model if you are successful at it. and I think. Again, just having small, incremental, little moments. It could be that, it could be putting out an article, it could be posting something and just seeing how it lands.

Like I mentioned before, it's, for us, it's just not being afraid of always just pushing new things out there and experimenting. because ultimately, I don't know, is it a fear of change of how that will be perceived? Or is it a fear of failure? So, I think you've just gotta keep on that journey.

Radim: one of the reasons why you and I met at Joel's event is because the way you do business is it's slightly different, or at least to majority of people that I'm aware of. And I think it'd be really interesting to talk about it for a bit, because that feels in its own way as an encapsulated change of [00:31:00] how do you adapt, you know, how do you plunge with the change, move with the change and join the dance.

Catharine: I guess the, the most, the clearest way I guess, that perhaps we differ from certainly many other animation studios is that I think we have always tried to license our work rather than be a work for hire. and by that I mean we are just, both of us are from different industries. So I'm, I worked in the music industry, for the first part of my career and Mark as an illustrator.

And in both of these industries, royalties and copyright are very much protected to the creators and to the performers. and so it's always amazed us that it's not a pattern that follows in animation. And I think there are so many benefits to both parties, to clients and to creators to work on, protecting your ip, understanding copyright, and just generally figuring [00:32:00] out the value that you are providing in this transaction, which is the Creative Professional Act.

so yeah,we tend to start conversations by, we typically work by licensing our characters or our animations and, we'd love to have conversations more with clients about that.

Radim: you can hear sort of smile on my face. Okay. That feels like a lot of education because you talk about startups, you talk about growth stages, all of that. And of course, being a founder in any business, it's quite messy. It's complicated. You don't always have all the answers.

 And then you realize, I need some character work.

I need to speak to form, play and form. Brain talks to me about, talks to me about what IP copyright, how do you find it? Talking to people and opening the doors to them to say, look, this is how things work and how things should work.

Catharine: Yeah, I think, basically I think it's just, like I said before, it's [00:33:00] become a default in our industry. that IP is assigned quite often and I think, too many, studios and freelancers give away that IP without really questioning it. And it's not a law. It's just become a default.

It's become a sort of bad habit of our industry, I think. so I mean, from us, we've learnt from bitter experience. we started out, we had a, in our first studio, we were commissioned to do, Well, mark was commissioned to do a gazillion illustrations for publications and, we signed it all away.

We, yeah, happy to do it. We were very new. we, assigned all the copyrights, and I cannot tell you the number of times that we've seen these illustrations in different, iterations of these publications. And the value that we've provided far outweighs the amount that we were paid for them. And that's not a fair transaction.

But we were naive, and I don't blame the [00:34:00] commissioner, it's, we should have made it our business to understand copyrights. and it's a really dry subject, but I, I think we just really believe, how it's a game changer for people because it allows longer term relationships with clients.

So. For instance, I mentioned startups. a lot of queries that we get are people who want to have, ownable characters that they can grow with their brand that's got emotional depth. And, it's a way of representing their true voice through this visual, suite of characters. But, they may not be able to afford, a complete buyout.

So straight away we are giving them options to say, well, you don't have to, the option isn't just is gonna be this fee or go elsewhere. The option might be, well, what usage do you need? Not do you need ownership? So it's just changing that initial conversation. and it just means [00:35:00] that, brands get to test the market.

 we're taking on all the risk. As they grow as companies, especially with, companies going through funding rounds, sometimes a lot, somewhere along that journey, they may need, what's called sort of clean ip. their lawyers need to know that company owns it all.

So there's always the option to buy it out later down the road. But, you know, we're building more of a relationship. We're building that journey of longevity because, you know, we can say, actually, you don't need to spend all the money initially buying them out. You could take what you need now. Let's iterate, let's develop the characters and let's build stories from it and let's test market.

Radim: I need to zoom in on this a bit more because there will be some people going, okay, so I can understand a little bit of what you're telling me, but you just told me you're taking on the risk. They, you are telling them about a [00:36:00] buyout. Do they even know they need a buyout or ip? Complicated stuff. And I'm a former illustrator and I was lucky that I was once upon a time represented by a proper agent who knew about, licensing and buyers and all of that stuff. But again, that was a revelation. Again, it was not anyone's problems prior to this. Like, no, no one did ill by not charging it properly. But in your instance, so when someone comes to you, do you have already developed characters? Do you create a characters and what do you mean when you say we take on the risk? Like, is it, are you getting a part pay, no pay? what happens? if it's, if it's okay to put some color into this.

Catharine: Yeah, absolutely. And it is a very nuanced subject. So yeah, I,it's something that can be quite complex, but it doesn't need to be. so I guess. For starters, the way that we look at it, it's a complete ecosystem. So if we have a client's, we've created characters for them, there'd be the creation fee, [00:37:00] but then there'd be the usage fee.

Catharine: and so we obviously separate those two elements because we really want to look at how the illustrations or the animations are going to be used and what value they can bring to that client. But if after say three years of usage, they no longer want or require the characters, then that goes into our license library and we own the copyright still.

So it means that we can then reuse those characters for another brand, for another, usage. So there's that element which straightaway that creates this. Wonderful cycle for the creator because, you know, it's not just, oh, we can't use that character anymore because that is owned by x, y, Z company.

Catharine: so in effect, that gives you the potential for recurring income. So that helps sustainability of the business. But when I say we take [00:38:00] on risk, what I mean is, if the conversation early on shows that there's a company with really, you know, really strong ambition for storytelling and for investing in, you know, characters and building characters as a brand asset, then we might say, well.

 We will look at the usage, we'll license them to you. Therefore, it means in the short term, we're probably getting less money initially. But we know that in the long term we're building trust, we're building a relationship, we're learning together what the brand voice is, what stories we can tell in the brand's, true voice.

Catharine: and it's really exciting and it means that we're working together as a true partnership, rather than us being paid for a one-off opportunity to create an animation. so I dunno, I, for us it's just, it builds trust. It's an opportunity for us to [00:39:00] create more abundance. it just seems the sensible way forward.

Radim: It definitely feels like a less transactional approach. Like it's more involved. I think it just creates more layers into how many more different conversations you can have with your client. it feels it's gone more depth for sure. As opposed to how much, when, how, what Goodbye. And, I have to ask a question before we,

go a bit more, further, but I have to ask.

you about your reusing of some of these characters because let's say I'm a brand a, I love these characters. After three years, all of my characters are no longer needed. And brand B goes, Hey, gimme a license.

The same thing. We're like, wait a minute, this was my brand. What happens there?

Catharine: Yeah. And I think all of this again, is, comes from this trust, doesn't it? I mean, we would be very sensitive to the way that the characters are used and for what sector. and ultimately we would be incredibly transparent with our clients so they understand, how the, these characters might go on to be used.

Catharine: [00:40:00] And sometimes it might be that it's not the exact render of the character. It might be, the character style. it might be the story framework that we've used. There are a number of ways, it's such a nuanced, situation. It very much comes down to the specifics and it comes down to conversations as well.

Catharine: but when, there've been a number of instances where, the characters that we've created have been for a campaign and that's, run its course. And, you know, clients are very happy, in, obviously for those characters to be presented for license in other instances, as long as certain brand elements are removed.

Catharine: so there are a number of ways that we treat it, but it's all about ultimately. Having that conversation and working out what is workable for that client?

Radim: When you talk about

Trust

and relationships, it's the honesty and transparency that builds trust in relationships. Because how

many,

times people would do the same thing that you do, [00:41:00] something that would be a leftover would be reus somewhere else, and something else would show up and this and that happened.

And you go very honest and clear approach about this is what it is and this is how it's being done. And I think that's kind of, benefits your business in a way of actually driving it forward because 

 it's a beautiful conversation that really, shows us how stories really can drive growth because. Again, I wanna repeat myself, and maybe I've an adjective wrong, but it's not a transactional process of what you guys do with your clients. You really feel like you're nurturing their stories, you're nurturing their ideas and what they stand for and create that memorability more as unique standpoint that, even it's, there's a technique which is established, but the way you tell the stories is very engaging and very different.

So

when did you realize that stories can really drive growth in something, which is, I'll be honest, I'm quite data driven.

Catharine: Yeah, I mean, we are avid consumers of, industry reports. You know, we like to keep abreast of, what is [00:42:00] effective. and I think it's system one and Walk that came up with a report called the Multiplier Effect, and it's how brands can essentially combine performance marketing with.

Catharine: building brand awareness and how combined, the two are a multiplier. They supercharge effectiveness. And I think, for us it's, that was the mic drop moment where we thought there, there very much is a place for storytelling, for, engaging audiences in a non-transactional way.

Catharine: it's about building trust with audiences, delighting them, making them want to seek out your content rather than content that interrupts their feed. and suppose we got firsthand experience really through Instagram when we, you know, like I said, we've used that as our playground and.

 we put micro stories out there, and some did really well. We got such interesting feedback, and we started noticing what the ingredients of those [00:43:00] stories were, and we started thinking, well, there's a pattern here. we consistently use these ingredients and we consistently get these results.

 that's, there's something that we have to pay attention to, and that's why we use this now story framework, this methodology, with clients now, because we know that there's, a tension, a dynamic about this format, that engages. And, and also it's fun and it's kind of trusting the process.

Catharine: it's just the most fun way of, you know, concentrating a brand voice and and really entertaining people. So yeah, we're all in for that.

Radim: You mentioned what ingredient? Well, I mean, I think you alluded to what the process was and what was the outcome of it, but 

What was that realization?

when you came to the findings of what makes these micro stories work?

Catharine: I think we've been testing and iterating [00:44:00] on them for so long and I think it's just, I think we were doing a lot of uni, workshops and talks, and by unpicking our process, we really started to think actually, what is it that we do? What exactly is the process? You know, and can we, I suppose, codify it almost, even though I, I'm nervous about using that because I think there's, Like you said, there are a unique combination of our influences that every creator has, that creates something distinctive. but there's certainly this, for us, this condensed form of storytelling that's harks back to that sort of visual gag that we were talking about, that Mark trained early in his career as a cartoonist.

Catharine: where you've got, the implied action, that moment just before the terrible thing happens or just after the terrible thing happens, and how that story then unfolds. And [00:45:00] so for us, we always start our storytelling in the middle, just before that point of action or just after.

 And we started noticing when we start building that you've got this lovely condensed. form of story that really exaggerates these emotions because you've only got a short amount of time to tell it in And because it's humor, it has to play on empathy.

You have to feel sorry for the characters in a bizarre kind of way. and also having little elements of surprise, so you're jolting people out of what they would expect. So there's a lot of kind of behavioral, work going into the storytelling as well. And it's just, it's just.

I think more creators that sit with these, challenges of how can we tell better stories, how can we tell stories that are true to us that we find enjoyable, that we not only want to make, but we actually love watching? and I think it's just really listening to that in yourself and [00:46:00] doubling down on it really.

Radim: I'm loving the sense to wonder what goes into your work because of course there's two sides. There's the foreman, there's a play, there's the business, and there's a creativity. And when you've got one of them almost sorted, which is business, and sorting out your strategy, you can actually focus on a creativity. when you have one of them niggling in the back of your mind saying, we need to chase this, need to do this and this is working, is this, and all of the existential crisis around ai, whatever. But when you know what you stand for, when you know what you want to do, then you can talk as eloquently and beautifully about your creative process as you are right now.

You know? 'cause it's just like. it really brings it to the craft and the reason why you're doing it. And on your website you've got a quote from Stuart Brown saying the opposite of play is not work. The opposite of play is boredom and depression.

when you think about, I think I've tried to make a lot of parallel with running on this podcast or like, sports or athletes. And it's when you've got your basics dialed in, then you can focus on your performance.

And you can actually say, you know what? The world doesn't owe [00:47:00] me anything. I am responsible, I'm holding myself accountable to get the basics right. ' cause only then I can go and actually perform and do my thing. Right. And I think I think one of the main takeaways from this conversation is for people to really think. How they run their businesses, how they're aware of what's happening around them, how they're aware of what's happening, and making sure that they've got essentials absolutely figured out and sort of dialed in because then you can focus on the work and enjoy it because how many hours, in every day are wasted because, no, how many hours of every day are used by admin?

And, some people totally despise it, some people love it, but it's make sure that how much time you can spend to dial in what you're trying to do. So in your case, I mean, I'm so happy that when I'm listening to you.

like I'm listening to someone who's really thought about how to run a business and how to create work, that when you look at it, it's beautifully simple.

It tells great stories, but there's so much behind it that actually makes a great story. That's, it's applauded. 

Catharine: Oh, thank you very [00:48:00] much. I think for us with this mantra that's, despite the abundance of work out there, your work that you're creating is out there for a long time. so you've gotta make it count 

 ultimately. 

Radim: Absolutely. And I think, and also in your instance, you might have lots of people, or let's say there is, there are a lot of people who are struggling to find work,

 struggling with their style. Trying to think like, Do I need to reinvent myself? Do I need to come up with something new? Do I need to play into the advertising styles? Like, is this? But it takes away from the focus of who am I, what do I stand for, and what do I want to say? as we talked about that sort of, that fork in the road of like, do I go left or do I burn out and be depressed and choose the right path? Sometimes we've got those choices to actually, , go after what really we want to do, because it seems so daunting to be changing your full business or stopping the tap that you know, it's leaking cash all the time. You go like, Hey, you know, this is a [00:49:00] comfortable life, but ultimately I'm not happy. And it's like we talk about a risk. Some people might think, okay, Catharine, well you did it in a sensible way with Mark. Like you, you give yourself two years of changing your business, but could it be risky? And I listened to Rory Sutherland's podcast, one of his hundreds that he's put out there in various places, but he said, no one is really talking about the risk associated with not changing. We all see risk as the thing that is like, oh, this is a wholesale change that's gonna throw me out I won't know what to do with myself. Whereas there is a risk of staying the same. And in your case, I'm so happy that you didn't do that.

Catharine: The thing is, as creators, you've always got that drive to try something new, haven't you? That's in the lifeblood of creating. it's you're in this sweetie shop of possibilities. And for us, I think just playing with styles, playing with different variations on how we create is how we found our voice as well.

 So now for us, we think [00:50:00] it's really important to almost, to focus on that, to not be afraid of playing with styles of, just, yeah. Just experimenting. And I think as long as you've always got that thread of your DNA in the work, then it still comes from that same camp.

It still is in your, reflection of you. and that's one way I think to not feel kind of so caged in because, I think as illustrators especially and animators, there's that pressure to find your style, to have something that's instantly recognizable. but I've always thought that kind of goes against the grain of how you create, and of keeping it fresh.

So, and I know we're all different, many creators will very much be rooted in that one style and from that many possibilities grow. So it's just finding your own pathway really, isn't it? But for us it was in that kind of just many iterations, just trying different things, not worrying too much about them.

Putting them [00:51:00] out there and seeing what the next one is, seeing what's around the next corner. there's a great quote actually from, a poet called Darby Hudson, which, lemme see if I can find it. I absolutely love it. It's worry is creativity's idiot twin. They both make shit up for nothing.

And I think that is such a perfect quote because it's so true. We can spend so long worrying about what we do that actually it stifles creativity. And I think actually just keep moving, keep, making, keep, that optimism that fire in your belly, is so important. Yeah.

Radim: Well, you've closed our conversation perfectly. there's nothing I can add to this, so beautifully said. Catharine, it's been great to see you again and it's been great to share what you do and how you do it with the audience of this podcast because there's a lot of value. And I think what it really shows that there is part two, there's part three, and. I think doing it a bit older gives you a bit more [00:52:00] focus and going, you know what, this is what I want and this is what I will not regret doing. Because ultimately, the theme of daring Creativity, daring Forever is about doing the things you would otherwise regret never starting.

So,

yeah, 

Radim: I'm, I love what you guys do, as you can tell.

I, I love how you speak about your work and yeah, I'm super happy of where you guys are right now, 

Catharine: Oh, thank you so much, rod. It's been really fun chatting.

Radim: Thank you.

 [00:53:00]