"If anybody walks away with one thing from this chat, it's listen, so you're actually here."

In this thought-provoking conversation, Radim Malinic talks to James Martin, a designer, author, and educator, to explore his remarkable journey from a troubled childhood to becoming a successful creative entrepreneur with a bold vision for free design education. ~

Their candid exchange offers a rare glimpse into the triumphs, challenges, and untold stories that have shaped James's career and his desire to give back to the industry that saved his life.

Drawing from his wealth of experience, James shares invaluable insights on the importance of listening, rethinking, and continuous self-evaluation in the pursuit of creativity and personal growth. 

He openly discusses the role of childhood trauma, addiction, and the transformative power of design in his life, emphasizing the need for authenticity and storytelling in the creative process. 

Key Takeaways:

• The journey to finding one's purpose is a reward for patience and perseverance, often revealing itself over time.
• Social media and constant comparison can fuel insecurity and the "imposter syndrome," making it essential to stay grounded and focused on one's path.
• Embracing different perspectives, even those that challenge our beliefs, can be a powerful catalyst for growth and self-discovery.
• True creativity stems from understanding oneself, facing inner struggles, and being willing to evolve and adapt.
• Building a lasting legacy often requires careful planning, collaboration, and aligning with the right people who share your vision.

Creativity For Sale: How to start and grow a life-changing creative career and business by Radim Malinic - Out now.

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It's something that's changed my kind of world is that my ears are more important than my mouth. In my earlier years, my mouth led, it was very quick to snap, it was all very reactive, responsive, impulsive, Whereas now, as I get a little bit greyer, I realise that my ears are more important. That's something That's helped me in business so if anybody walks away with one thing from this chat, it's listen,

Hello and welcome to Creativity for Sale podcast, a show to help you start and grow your life changing creative career and business. My name is Radim Malinich and creativity changed my life. You see, I believe creativity can change your life too. I even wrote a book about it and it inspired this podcast. I've set out to interview the world's most brilliant creatives, designers, writers, musicians, makers and marketeers about their life changing experiences with creativity. If you ever wanted to know how people go from their humble beginnings to the pinnacle of their success, our conversation should provide you with an intimate look into triumphs, challenges and untold stories behind their creative endeavours. We also discuss the highs and lows of creative careers and creative life. So Thank you for joining me on this exploration of passion, creativity, innovation, and the boundless potential within us all. Let creativity change your life. Are you ready?

Hello, James. It's nice to have you on the show. How are you this morning?

I've had very well, my friend. How are you? You got a migraine? How's your head? Is it all right?

I mean, yeah, you know, trying to get things done,

No, I know, it's because you're a trooper. Absolute trooper.

at least we are nice and warm today because last time I saw you, I made you walk around 17 different blocks in Toronto in search of a breakfast

that was, you didn't want to pay, what was it? You didn't want to pay for your, um, what was it? The data

my data. No, no, no, It's not

ha ha

didn't want to pay for my data. I messed up my data

you didn't have any data. That was it, yeah. So yeah, we went, the place where we were going to have food was literally next door to my hotel, but we went 20 minutes forward, 20 minutes left, and then 20 minutes back left again, and then we just did a square, which was lovely. But do you know what? It was nice to spend some time with you. I enjoyed it, but it was cold.

Likewise. I normally go to all those trendy places in Toronto. And this time we had a breakfast with all the policemen and firemen and all the

it was. It was the equivalent of the greasy spoon in London, wasn't it?

was fascinating. Absolutely fascinating. I was, it's quite sort of serendipitous situation that we once upon a time used to live across the town from one another, didn't know about each other. and now we live in just outside London, you know, still live in Southampton and we met, properly in person in Toronto a few weeks ago Design thinkers. And I was absolutely fascinated with the conversation that we had because yet we have known so much in common and yet we do so many different things. So what I want, what I want to ask is how did you grow from a graphic designer to what you are today?

Just heavier, is probably what I am today compared to what I was. yeah, it's a great question. I suppose it's something that I've never really, planned. I think, obviously, quite a troubled, fractious, teen years, childhood, creativity, wasn't particularly celebrated, and then, I don't know how far back we want to go, but obviously found, Creativity is a bit of a safe space in my early 20s. and I had no fucking clue what graphic design was at that time. It was purely just a distraction from drugs, trauma, and alcohol. Do you know what I mean? It was just trying, just something to keep me on track. Um, and over the last two decades, it's evolved, you know, 40 now. So yeah, I've been trying, I would say, to different degrees. trying more and more and more as I get older, obviously, over the last two decades and I've fallen into more of a, I don't know what I am really now, some sort of weird hybrid thing, that lives within the design world. You know, I still do a huge amount of cloud work, but I also build a lot of courses and like yourself, an author and, coach, try and offer as much free desired advice as I possibly can on Instagram with, what's it like, almost over half a million followers now, which is bonkers for a who lives in Southampton, do you know what I mean? It's bonkers. So, yeah, it's, I think it's I think it's just evolved patience, perseverance, you know, the longer I'm in it, the more I realize what I have to offer. And that kind of purpose was very much client focused originally, but now it's very much trying to, I feel like I'm a designer that's trying to help designers. every day. yeah, it's, it's a journey. I'm quite, I don't have a fucking clue what I'm going to be in 10 years time, but hopefully alive, which would be a good thing. but yeah, I don't know. We'll see, won't we?

I think when you mentioned I don't know what I am, I think that's sometimes I think the best possible way of actually reaching that in your career because When I think like beginning of our careers, we try to give ourselves all these titles because they are our identity. We go like, okay, I remember like how, for example, I was like, I was a graphic designer, art director, illustrator. I wanted to do everything. And I never really tried dial up that purpose. Whereas when I speak to you now, it's like, when, when I see your sort of public face in, your, your Instagram account. and everything that you do is it's just, it's heavily rooted around the logo design and the logo design community, but it's been fascinating to watch how you how you evolve with age and time by actually volunteering and actually giving back the information that people need to know. yeah, you mentioned the right word. It's the purpose and the purpose, like it's, would you say that that was a game changer for you?

I think before purpose came survival. I think that, I think that was like the, the big thing for me in, in like many ways. Obviously, I think all designers or anybody who gets into any form of work, it's there to serve. which is to survive, isn't it? To be able to put food on table, to be able to pay for bills, to be able to pay for mortgage, to be able to pay for children, family, or whatever it is. and I think once you get past the survival stage, I mean, I have this theory that every five years you evolve. I don't, this is not scientific fact. This isn't, please do not come back to me with some sort of biological thing. Yeah.

I think I've seen as every seven years, but I mean, yeah, you're five or seven years. I think that sounds about

Yeah. Every like four to five years, I feel that I go through like this transition of. where I'm always thinking like, what's the next big thing? Do you know what I mean? So for the first five years, it was very much survival, put food on the table. Is this a viable direction for me? Is this going to, has this got longevity? like I said, am I making any money? Can I survive? and then after survival, it went more into this, um, okay, well now making money, clients are coming in. And then it was more so like, how can I add more of my personality into my work? How can I do more of the work I want to do? know, it started to almost not necessarily say no to loads of projects, but we would say that we were basically in the beginning saying yes to everything. And then a few more no's started to come in because they didn't really align with a budget or they didn't really align with the kind of work we wanted to do. there's only so many kids party leaflets you want to do when you're, in the year six, seven of your kind of career. and then after the next five years of doing that and diving into, and Baby Giant's 13 years old now, my agency. So at the beginning of that, it was still very much, trying to put on this face of we have to be a thing to everybody to get this work. And we have to say yes. And we, if we don't do it, we can find something else that can do it. Like I said, it's this survival thing, even when I start the agency. but then as I've evolved, it's become I suppose it's that kind of slowly niching down into like, not necessarily what I want to do, but who I want to be. and I think that's Something that's been a big driver of me, especially over the last five years, I would say is okay, I've given a lot of my energy and my, a lot of my time and a lot of my effort to clients, helping them, win, helping them survive, helping them live their dreams, their dream businesses. And I was like, what do I want? what do I want to be? And that's when this purpose started to kick in with more about like giving back to the industry and like creativity saved my life and I know how powerful it's been to me and my family and how happy it's made me and I want to gift as much knowledge as I can or make my make whatsoever is in my head accessible through. books or courses, to help people, in the industry. but yeah, purpose comes very much later in life. I think because I had to figure out who the fuck I was first, I can't help anybody until I figure out who I am. And I think it worries me when I see a lot of. Like younger, greener designers, we'll call them, kind of, you know, niche down too early or try like, I want to build 100, 000, make 100, 000 pounds next year, and I want 200 million followers, and I worry that sometimes the kind of need to be famous outweighs the need to build a career sometimes in today's kind of world. But, you know, we grew up in a world without social media, so it's a bit different now. Don't want us to sound like two old farts, do you know what

yeah, we could, we definitely might have the, might have the chance of sounding like a two old faths, but I think we had that. there's, there's a lot of analogies. Great answer, by the way. And I'm glad that you, admitted to make, party, party flyers for, in your, in your careers. Because when I used to live in Southampton, we used to have the joke that unless you've made a kebab menu design, you haven't worked in graphic design. you obviously, at least one kebab shop menu you have to, in your, in your, in your lifetime, you have to pay the bills, but the niching, I think, let's talk about niching for a second, because obviously. You, you, you've got your niche. I don't even know what mine is anymore. Like I know, I know the purpose, but like niche, you necessarily, it's, it's, it's a different, different story. But I was, I was thinking before this conversation this morning about what I'm going to talk to you about and, and narrowing down is such a hard thing that if you force it. It just might not even work. So you mentioning like the young guns trying to, especially there is lots of messages out there saying you need to find your niche. Whereas I remember I wrote this chapter in my first book, which was like a hundred, I think a hundred different styles of a hundred songs. That was it, a hundred songs. And it was like, there's an analogy from the music world that you need to make a hundred songs in a hundred different styles. To even find what actually makes you happy. Because I just feel like the world out there is absolute Disneyland. It's like a pick and mix with all the shiny things and everything smells and tastes good, but you can't have all of it on your plate at the same time. And it's, it's almost like just find that one thing that you really enjoy and then you really like. And then see where it takes you next, because this is, we explored that through survival mode, and I can totally relate to, just like paying 40 a week rent in Southampton, that was my survival. That was my, that was my enabler and a survivor. And I said yes to anything, literally, like I was making. Tickets for people for their events. And it was just random, but you learn to, I see like the journey from a kitchen porter, like you're washing dishes all the way to managing, every single phase of how the business works and how, how takes you through, because when you have to go and find, fine tune off, and if you fix a problem at a lower level, then you know how to do it. But I feel like there's a lot of messages in the industry, which kind of. Wants to get people to leg up, which is fine because it gives them like, okay, this is how we can shortcut 20 years of a career, but not necessarily how to get the experience of 20 years. And so this is, this is, when I watch your courses, when I look at it like this, it's very honest and tells people like, there's bricks and there's a building blocks and you have to build a foundation because you can't just jump over that wall and be in that situation.

I think what you're explaining there, which is exactly what I think, is that When, when I started in the industry, I started at the bottom I, when I grew up, do you know what I mean? I don't, I I, I leveled up. But within my first agency, it was making tea, it wasn't really doing a lot of work, it was watching, absorbing, sitting in the background, but that was my place, that was where I started, and if you look at any apprenticeship, any other job role, doctors or whatever, you start at the bottom, and then you earn the right to you. Do X, Y, Z, John, but later on where I think with the immediacy and the access to information and the get rich quick and the shortcuts and the quickest hack to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, there are people at the bottom. claiming to be experts, do you know what I mean? Because of maybe what they've learned or what they've been told or maybe how they've been told that they should carry themselves in conversations and all the rest of it, where this, this journey has lost it's called a career for a reason, a career lasts 40. 40 plus years if we're lucky. sometimes a bit longer if they keep pushing back the retirement age, But this idea of having to make it year one, two, three is bonkers. These are years for exploration. These are years for testing, and when we talk about niching now, I'm a big believer in that your niche finds you. Do you know what I mean? Your niche finds you with time, with failure, with figuring out what's right, figuring out what's wrong, I believe I have become a better brand designer, a better visual identity designer, a better logo designer through my experience of being a photographer, an illustrator, a tattoo artist, a web designer, an animator, you know, all of these things that I've learned over my life to get me to today. Make me the designer I am today. But I was so many things, like I didn't, so out of a 20 year, or 18 year career say so far, you know, I've only really focused in my niche of like visual identity for the last 8 years. Do you know what I mean? So there's almost a decade there of learning, testing, trying, figuring stuff out, knowing, or figuring out what I didn't like to find out what I did like. there's lots of, there was a big journey to get to that point, and I think that particular journey, because of all this conversation around niching and finding your purpose, following your passion, following your passion is the shittest advice to give to a 20 year old, do you know what I mean? Because Personally, I don't like to geminize, but it's such a, it's shit, do you know what I mean? Because I don't think you know enough about yourself. I don't think you have tried enough things to know what your passion is yet. And I think, as I said, your passions evolve with you and they reveal themselves and purposes. They reveal themselves over time. and they're a reward for patience and perseverance, I suggest.

I can tell you that. 20, more than 20 something odd years in the industry. I still don't know what I'm passionately, what I'm passionate about. I know what I'm, what I'm obsessive about, what makes me, curious. And, but why am I, passion is such a strange word and such a strange, strange category to, and the label to put on things, because what's, what's interesting in this conversation that you and I started in the industry around the same age. So I started late. I started around 20, 22. And, we get young guns who are, teenagers and they talk about brand strategy and stakeholders. And you're thinking those, those are your age, like this is your age of innocence. it's nice that we have democrat, democratized the information that people can actually get the idea of how the world of business works, because, I went, I went to study economics at uni just because. I was good at maths at that time, and I realized I need something to my name, but no one in my, no one in my life was, a graphic designer. No one was like doing the work that we do now. Whereas you only have to do now is just, was the open Instagram and type in logo designer. And you can see all these hundreds and thousands of people who are logo designers, who are making this. very much a career that you can see what it might be as a sort of end result. But I just believe like the Age of Innocence is just like, no, that, that playground, that sandpit, like just exploring and actually be and fail and not even like, you don't see yourself failing when you've 20, especially, we didn't see ourselves, you know, making a party flyer kebab shop menu as, as a failure. It paid a rent, that was, that was a little success. That was a little win that was to be celebrated. And I feel we just all of this on steroids when it just feels like, okay, you know, you have to make, some imaginary million dollar a month or million dollar a year, you know, like some sort of subscription service. Like it's easy to follow because that's what human nature is. We think that we can borrow and make it fit for us, but it's only about the honest expression of what is it that you can actually do when you can add to, the universe with your offer. And how does it align with other people's souls? Because I think what I've got from you the most is that it's who you are. It's not what you project to the universe. And it's got like, it's just a genuine expression of, of what you do and what you create and what you believe in. And that speaks volumes over. Some multi technical, it's not full stack developments as whatever, you know, like job title with, with some complicated website. And I think that's been sometimes lost in, in ether and the messaging right now.

Yeah. But yeah, very much so. But I also think, I think that is down to the access of information. it's, I don't think there's been a time, I don't think there's been a time in history where, access to information and people has been greater. Do you know what I mean? you know, I don't like to keep talking about us growing up, but it's impossible for me to look at the Draplins and that, I had no idea about all these people who I now know and now I look up to. so I was never comparing myself to anybody. There was never this competition. It was purely, like I said, survival. How can I? work today to get to tomorrow. But now what's happening is with all this access to people, information, and people seemingly everybody's successful on Instagram or YouTube or whatever it is, it's impossible to not It's impossible not to feel that you're not enough and even I, do you know what I mean? I feel like I'm doing some brilliant things. I'm way further than I thought I'd ever be in my life and career. If you talk to James 20 years ago, if he told me I was going to be here, do you know what I mean? James would be like, oh crikey, win. But like even now I'm like, what's next? What's next? I know that kind of evolves with purpose and mission and all the rest of it. Um, but like this. this need, because you can constantly compare yourself to what you see others doing and how others are doing it. And I think, I think I'm a little bit older now, so it's easier for me to be able to stay in my lane, shut that out. But 10 years ago, it wasn't as easy as it is now. And I think this comparison, imposter You know, which I think is involved in, you know, especially creativity, like creativity for us was a private thing, or for many artists going back, into like the early 80s, 90s, 2000s, was still a personal. You would draw in your free time and that artwork would be seemingly probably seen by some friends or, maybe somebody might buy it or, or even like when I started working in design, it was for my local, Village, kebab shops, party shops, do you know what I mean? Like pubs, restaurants, menus, all the rest of it. and then now, that work is for the world to see. Not just my local village of 3, 000 people, it's, the world. And I think that adds another level of stress and pressure to people to like, and everybody's seemingly You know, it's funny how the level, the playing field gets leveled on social media, like people might look at, like you, for example, or me, or your Draplins, or, you know, your Porter Shares, or, anybody like that, and then suddenly think, Oh, I, why aren't I that? But then these people have been in the industry for 20, 30, 40 years. Do you know what I mean? But the person of year one, two or three is thinking, I need that. Do you know what I mean? I need that now. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? But they're possibly not willing to do the 20, 30 years to get there. Possibly. I don't know. I don't like to generalize too much, but I think comparison has been, I think that's the biggest issue I see for our world as creative people is, um, this little nugget, which when I was growing up as a fresh screen designer, I didn't have that, that struggle of look at that person. He's bleeding.

Yeah. it's interesting that you mentioned that sometimes you feel these things again, like sometimes you don't know what your enough is and. That is such a hard thing to come by because I was trying to sort of write about it, define it enough. It's very hard to aim for enough, but it's okay to actually get to the point of realizing, what my, what my enough is right now. I know it now. it took me 22 years to find out what my enough is. And I have, it's so easy to go through emotions of like, you know, especially with the quantified creativity, you've got your likes, you know, you've got your platforms, you've got your followers and why is somebody with something that you seemingly think is it's worst style of work or quality. We've doubled the followers and you're thinking like, is the world fair or unfair? When you realize the universe works in its own way, like it doesn't matter, if you live your own life and style, then that is enough because that will actually show you the ways of actually where you should go and, and what you should do next.

yeah, I was going to say, I was literally, you caught me just as I was about to lead, but it's funny how, what we perceive those numbers and those likes to mean, isn't it? Because like you say, it's this immediate, like, if you have More followers, you must be better. Or if you have, uh, more likes, they must be better. Whereas I know people who aren't on Instagram, for example. making millions. Do you know what I mean? And I know people on social media with hundreds of thousands of followers and got no work. Do you know what I mean? So I think it's this weird perception, that I think you can, I mean, the dream is to have both, isn't it? Ultimately, you know, to have an audience and to have, I mean, but ultimately the reason that we're all in this is to work and survive. Like, this is why the way I look at the kind of Instagram world and the social media world or marketing platforms, as I like to call them, everybody's just trying to survive. Everybody's just trying to make it. Everybody's just trying to become something to someone that's, nobody's doing this because they. there's an end goal to the things that they're doing, whether it's, some people might want fame, some people might want more clients, some people might want to build an audience for them, be able to do paid ads to then survive for, through that kind of money or whatever it is, but everybody's just trying to Be something to somebody. But it's funny how we look at a blue tick or we look at at the amount of likes or the amount of comments or the work, and then associate the work with the amount of following and think like, why haven't I got that? Like why am I. Do you know what I mean? But it's funny how these things don't, like this, just because I've got, I've been going noodling around this idea of just, there's a big difference between, a design influencer and a with influence.

Absolutely. Yeah.

Do you know what I mean? There's a huge difference between those things. And there are a lot of design influencers out there who don't do a lot of client work, but they make their money on, through the size of their audience through doing paid ads for many, many people. And they do a little bit of. A splattering of client work when it comes in, but they don't, they're not busy studio and they're not busy doing groundbreaking client work where there's also designers who have influence of people who design all day, every day, and are actually doing the things that they're sharing with people, every single day. So that's, I just think this kind of number to success is such a weird, like, is it a paradigm that we're kind of in where we kind of,

James, I think what you're trying to describe, I think when you think about social media has been designed to make us feel anxious. It's never, it's never like social media has never completed. Like we're never going to say, okay, you know, I just, added all the photos, you know, I've completed my thirties of my social. I've added all the folios. I've added all the followers. Everyone who knows about me is here. It's, it's, it's a, it's never designed. It's always an open book. It always changes. It's designed to make us anxious because either we are, they play into our sort of primal instincts of like, there's a good, a good analogy about pigeons that if you give a pigeon a food every hour, it will wait for the, it will wait for the food. If you withdraw the food every other hour, it'll start pecking at the food every other hour, a lot harder because they will think that the food's not coming ever again, and that's pretty much same way of. A social media, because Oh, I've just posted something. Obviously the best thing would be, I'm going to focus on something else. Like it's doing its own work, like just leave it there. But of course, 15 minutes later, let's see if you got any likes. if there's, and let's see anyone replied. And it's just we have created these tools that somehow like try to template one for, one fits, one fits for all sort of solution to such intricate careers and intricate journeys that. We live in a different ways. We think in a different ways. We follow similar pathways. We follow similar roads, but we have different ideas and we try to sort of squish them into this sort of plastic box of a phone or sort of what it's called, some metal, steel or whatever now. And, and we try and say, okay, I need to fit in. I need to fit it into this formula. It needs to work for me. And of course, some people have done amazing things and you're not a great example of like how you can amplify your voice and your persona for, for those platforms, but it's equally, it's equally possible to actually just live in a pre digital. World, or pre social media style sort of work in practice. And as you said, I've got friends like just like you, just like yourself, I've got friends who make incredible work and money by any social presence. They, they focus on the, on the C suites and the boardrooms. And that's where the. Stuff is made because their longing and their gratification comes from somewhere else, you know, like we, they don't need necessarily the likes on, on, on, on the screen, their longing is in financial, remuneration, you know, like for them, we do the things we do for different reasons. That stem usually from our childhood, from our anxieties, from our, some sort of insecurities, know, being a survival mode, I don't think anyone's naturally greedy, you know, like I think it's just, it's more about like, how do you feel insecure that sometimes, making something out of nothing can make you feel literally like Usain Bolt just smashing that sort of record on a hundred meters, you know, you feel like a gold medal winner, you're fully on top of the world because with creative work, I just feel like it's sort of amazing mixture of dopamine and. ambition, testosterone and dolphins. Like it, you made something out of nothing. Someone liked it and they got you paid for it. that's so much better than making a burger and passing it through a window. And I feel like the social media doesn't always fit it because we live differently, we think differently and we feel like we should be all Having the same impression, same likes and same stuff. So I think that kind of brings me on to your sort of current career or current sort of, variation of your career right now, which is a coach. So we'll talk about your courses in a minute, but how do you advise the, I mean, it's good for us to chat about things that we know now, but how do you advise the young, young and new on, on this other stuff and how does it work? Hmm.

Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't say, I would say probably more guide. Um, I'm not qualified. I believe I understand the industry. I believe I've got a finger on the pulse with reference to, what clients expect, and also a good balance of business and marketing skills where I can guide people in a, in a direction that would hopefully bring them better results. But I think it all started when, well, I mean, we both grew up in a, in a world where it was quite difficult to access information. Like I said, you start at the bottom and then You learnt as you grew and a lot of the time you had to figure it out for yourself and then fall forward, ultimately. and when I jumped into this social media realm, like properly, you know, about a decade ago, just over a decade ago, that's when I started to share my work and share my ideas and share my process. there was such a, like a reaction to it, like people almost craving this kind of behind the scenes, background knowledge of like how to create ideas and this was almost something that they hadn't seen before. There are people possibly doing it, but maybe not on, online, or maybe not in the way that I was doing it, you know, maybe it's the detail, maybe within the details. The niche, the logo design niche or whatever. So, yeah, it was something that gained, just gained traction. And the more I started to do it, the bigger it grew. And obviously that has evolved from purely design, logo, process, visual identity process into more business mindset, and stuff like that. and for me, it was very much kind of just trying to, learn as I was going with that. you know, trying to understand the You know, I was learning this, like when I was talking to a lot of designers, they're all having the same problems. And I was thinking, well, maybe this is an interesting to build some content around. Do you know what I mean? So the conversations I was having started to turn into ideas for books, ideas for courses, ideas for context. I was thinking like, there's like 25 people like this week who've told me they're all struggling with So why don't I create a post about design process and help those people? So that's kind of how it escalated, to the point of where it is now, where I've decided to, a couple of years ago, I built my first course, which came out just after the book. and it was a world that I never even contemplated getting into. it wasn't something that was on my radar. It was again like, with time, perseverance, patience, the audience was growing, or the tribe, as I like to call them, it's definitely not a cult, it's more of a tribe, you know, an audience is something that, I don't really like the word audience, because I feel like a community is An audience is me on stage and everybody looking at me, whereas I like to feel that I've created more of a community where, everybody feels they're safe, do you know what I mean? It's a place that people can talk about their prices, it's a place that people can talk about their trauma as a child, because I share a lot about sexual abuse as a child, and my struggles with addiction, and drugs and alcohol, and I like to believe that I've, created a safe space where people can be themselves. And that's something that I've learned that's been really, really important for me. So when it comes to this guide, coach, educator, that's something that I try and lead into a lot, which is the importance of story, the importance of being ourselves. There's obviously the the go to tools and techniques and processes to building businesses, to strategizing marketing, to creating content, to making money, pricing work. But I don't think any of those things are achievable without the right mindset. I know this is something that you're, you're big on and you're, an advocate for, which is this, you know, we've got to be, you know, the, the more I work on myself. The more effective I become to everybody else, um, which is why, I, I feel that. Nishi too early is a mistake. This is why I feel that, putting yourself in a box too early is a mistake, you know, and I think there's so much we have to learn, like working, I've always had this kind of mindset of like, if I'm struggling with anxiety, or I'm struggling with loneliness, or I'm struggling with confidence, or I'm struggling with anything, it's not a mistake. I go and learn about it, and I go and read about it, and I get, I, I've had counselling myself, do you know what I mean? To try and understand the way I think, and these things have catalyzed my growth, because I understand the importance of understanding myself. So, now I know this, it's very much easier for me to be able to become all I can be. Like, I understand that I'm the only person in the way of becoming that. I understand that I'm gonna die, do you know what I mean? And death is a fantastic motivator for me because it's something we've all got in common. I'm not gonna say no to an opportunity because it's comfortable to say no. Do you know what I mean? I'm always trying to push comfort zones, all this kind of stuff. So, yeah, so when it comes to this kind of educational guide thing, it's very much design focused. Yeah, that's where, where my success has been. but I very, I work very hard on trying to get people to understand the importance of like creativity, business and mindset is kind of where I land because I think you have to have all three, to excel, personally.

I mean, the point about understanding yourself, it's, it's, it, it comes to us naturally. We hear it a lot. You know, I need to know who I am and what, what, what do I stand for? But it, it takes a journey, like a long journey to actually work. Those answers are because you might have an, an impression thinking, oh, I, I know right now what I, what I stand for, but. It's just a momentary thing. Like, actually, what you are is actually is the sum of many parts that actually add up to your sort of experiences, your personality that then make it happen. And yeah, I just, I just like that. You actually say that, that you guided, you're not a qualified coach, but. a qualified coach is just someone who went to facilitating, you know, program. Like they know how to do this, you know, like there should be some sort of rules, but we are, I think we are all guides to one another because we, like, it's the human aspect that makes you understand how to actually work with other people, what to actually deliver for other people. Because what you mentioned, the understanding of the design process and how things are made and stuff. It's necessary. It's like watching the game of football and knowing, okay, so that's how they cross the ball. That's how they did this. That's how the pass goes in. But it's not until you do it, until you speak to a person like, why did, why does it work that way? Because you can, you can replicate something. I can pick up a guitar and I can replicate a chord I can see on YouTube and go, okay, well, that's the chord. what do I do with it? You know, I need to understand how do I connect it to someone who will say. What is that called? That makes me happy. You know, like, why did you use it? Or how do you play it? How do you strum it? It's just, it's understanding how we actually use these sort of ingredients because why do we even get new cookbooks every year? There's 20, 30, 50, a hundred of them every Christmas. Well, we've had the same food for the last 300 years. we haven't invented new animals, new vegetables, anything like it's how we sort of like actually for our curiosity, inventions and an evolution, how do we go forward? And I think that's, that's the part that I think makes it more, more interesting because if you open yourself to saying, I don't think I'm doing it right. Because I think that's the struggle because no one wants to admit it, like I'm not doing this right. Everyone thinks I'm, I'm, I should, this should be okay because I'm doing something that looks like something on Instagram or somewhere on the internet, but it doesn't stick. I'm not getting paid. I'm not getting the right clients. Something's not quite right, but you're going to blame everybody else for your mistakes, not, not yourself. And I think. flipping that mirror and saying, actually, I need to be better. I need to understand myself better. I need to understand my childhood traumas, which I personally didn't know until my thirties, no forties, actually, when I was your age for the last five years, I had the biggest. tumble drive of experiences of finding out that most of my first 40 years of my life were pretty chaotic because of the first few years of my life, you know, so I didn't even know that. And I thought I was, I was right in this cloud called graphic design, creativity, illustration. That was my prop. That was my excuse. That was my, that was my excuse to run, drive, drive myself to the ground because that was my, way of. dealing with some sort of traumas that I didn't even know properly that were there. So it's that feeling. I think that's where I can say now that I know who my NF is. I know I can feel more comfortable and the world around me doesn't feel like a competition. It feels only like a people I can potentially connect with because. I'm finally comfortable with who I am and what I do and how it's done. And I feel like you are just on the cusp of, being there yourself kind of going, this is my true expression, because I mean, we live in such a weird sort of middle league of creativity that there's no defined sport. Yet we somehow feel like we compete with each other, yet we say we want to encourage each other. It's such a sort of complex cocktail of emotions and insecurities and anxieties that we Can do so much better at it. And I think, and, coaching, I think is something what you do. And I think it's something more like consider in the future, because I think you did a great work on this because you only like you help them with the groundwork saying it's okay to not be okay, it's okay to do things the way you do, because the longer you do them, they will start working. They will start actually clicking.

Yeah. A hundred percent. and one of the things you mentioned there, which was, this kind of relearning, rethinking that something is a process that I go through. with every project. Do you know what I mean? Like, how can I speed this process up? what, you know, it's almost like this kind of self evaluation thing, which is for example, for example, like very recently, like I've had my kind of like my process for creativity, my visual identity process, which has been solid and rigid for so long. it's been great. Do you know what I mean? It's allowed me to. execute, it's allowed me to be as creative as I possibly can. Like I know exactly where I am in the project at all particular times. but as I've grown, my process has grown and like even today, you know, very recently I tweaked a part of my process where, know, I used to lean into sharing, like I used to have like a very heavy, like exploratory kind of discovery phase with my clients and that leaned into one. based on everything that we learned. But recently I've evolved that into sharing some very early stage sketches as the first part. Do you know what I mean? To just make sure that I'm aligned with the vision, with the audience, with the purpose, with the client, just to get a feeling of, am I in the right? And this is something I added to my process. Six months ago, do you know what I mean? and it's helped, the client relationships. It's helped get, to get my clients more involved in the project. It's helped me speed up my projects. Do you know what I mean? Like, and this is something that. maybe someone who is stuck in their ways wouldn't change because it's always worked this way and it wasn't that it was broken before. It's just that I found that there was a better way. I was like, maybe if I just tweet this bit, it might actually save me a bit of time on the back end. which it's done and it's made my life so much happier because it also makes me realize that. I'm not right. Do you know what I mean? And I actually really enjoy not being right. I love having difficult conversations. I love speaking to, and this is something I actually actively do on social media. I, I follow people I don't agree with. Because I don't want them there because I want to agree with them, I want them there so I can learn to evaluate whether the way I see the world is right or not. Do you know what I mean? It's almost like this game I play with myself to keep myself evolving and thinking and I'm actually, I surround myself with very, very good people, but I use social media as a tool for rethinking and relearning. Like I said, I'm actively following people that annoy me a little bit. Do you know what I mean? Like, why do they annoy me? Like, why does what they say annoy me? And like, how can I use this, you you know, and sometimes they've changed my perspective. Like I've spent time, I've watched them, I've read what they're about, I've followed their story in more detail. I've actually come to really, really like these people. I don't agree with what they're saying all the time, but it's really good to get that different perspective. Because I think the problem is, is, People are only, this becomes very tribal, doesn't it? I follow this person, and I'm going to do what this person says, and then if somebody says something bad about that person, I'm going to tell them that they're bad, even though I don't really know what I'm talking about, do you know what I mean? So, this kind of having varying perspectives, has been a huge thing for my growth. And, like I said, like, Understanding that I'm not right all the time allows me to evolve, allows me to tweak, allows me to change, which in turn makes me better, I think.

think that's the issue. Cause when we started in the creative industry, we tell ourselves we are right about everything. We believe that everything we've created first round is right. You know, and, I had the experience of employing a junior designer and it was like, Oh, this is, no, we were, the exploration phase was almost not there. And I'm just like, okay, well, this is, this is the answer. when you don't know anything, you know, little knowledge is dangerous because you think that's right. Cause you're like, grew up in a way that nothing was ever good enough. And that's that's what I brought, brought to myself, what was brought with myself into my creative career. I, I should be celebrating every little, small win and we just don't, because it's just, it's not, it's never good enough. And it was, you always try to push yourself for more. So when you see, when you see people's work. It's almost like, where do we, again, where do we align? Because you get people who think they know everything without knowing anything. And you know, people who know everything and potentially have done necessarily that bitter truth for those people who know very little and they misalign. So, I mean, I can only agree with you, with what you said about following people that you don't, understand. I mean, I would say don't understand or haven't known enough because it's. In the past, my insecurities, I would say, for example, I would, I would make my opinion about people. who were lovely. And I would think, Jesus, who's that person, you know? And vice versa, like my insecurities would make me feel arrogant because I was just trying to stay away from situations, even though I put myself in a public view. So it's, it's just, I think it's just the experience of actually just being open and just actually just like approaching things with, you know what? Let me listen for a minute. Let's, let's just see what, where I can find out, because I think that's just, that's where the magic happens. Like, I remember watching this video about John Mayer and he said, I'm going to talk to you for an hour just so you know nothing about me. Because everything you've learned about me is from different signals and different stories. They're not necessarily true. Let me just tell you who actually I am, or just to get to the conversation where you actually find out who I am from what you want to know. And I think that's for social media as distracting model because no one's themselves on social media, everyone's a bit jollier, everyone's a bit happier, you get some people who are honest. And you kind of figure like, I don't know enough about you to find out the right reason because I'm sure some people are still searching for likes and, followers. But yeah, I think it's just like, how do you approach your daily life by wanting to know very little and just actually getting to know the information as it comes rather than making your opinion?

Mmm. Yeah, it's an interesting, it is, it is an interesting, interesting thought, isn't it? It's very easy to judge people you don't know nowadays,

I think just when people sort of, sorry for jumping in, but I think just when. When you talk about sort of tribe tribalism and, and what, James calls football ification, you know, like you're happy to stand up for someone even though you know them too much. You know, the sort of the little fights on like the brand new, um, you know, the the forum about new, logos and stuff and it's just, it's all very petty. It's all very unnecessary, you know, that sort of chat about like, oh, crikey, 400 grand. They just changed the color. You know, like, well wait a minute. They had to go like, and look at the whole brand architecture. Working out how it all works. You have to make sure where it's from your little mind, from your little experience, you thinking you should be paid a hundred grand to change a color. You don't know what exactly was behind it, but it's that easy mindset. Like it takes ages for us to grow up and know our stuff properly. And when you think about this, like we will never stop. From speaking until we know what we need to say, obviously, it's, it's the, it's the journey of getting things wrong all the time until we say something which actually potentially is quite right. So

yeah, So yeah, I had to work very quickly and I was, I was taught, and it's something that's changed my, my kind of world is that my ears are more important than my mouth. Do I mean? When in my, in my earlier years, my mouth led, do you know what I mean? it was very quick to snap, quip, wit, do you know what I mean? It was all very reactive, responsive, impulsive, Whereas now, as I get a little bit greyer, I realise that my ears are more important. Before this kicks in, you know, and that's something That's helped me in business and helped me in, especially this kind of education, like space, like I wouldn't be able to do the things I'm doing without listening to the problems that other people are having. And everybody has slightly different tweaks to a certain problems. But yeah, ears, If anybody, so if anybody walks away with one thing from this chat, it's listen, So you're actually here. Yeah. It's a very difficult, skill to do.

there's something I've brought from, from anxiety coaching that was one thing, just literally just don't jump in because it was my insecurities, especially at the early ages, early age of design career when. you get asked Oh, so you're the creative one. Tell us what's the answer. I'm like, you try to finish people's sentences. You know what you say? making jokes and try to be, because we want to be accepted. We want to be accepted. But, I want to talk about for a second about your book that you published. Was it 18 months ago, two years ago?

yeah. Beginning of 2021, I think. Yeah.

2021. So I've got it right. great book. And what I wanted to say, you told me in a conversation in, in Canada that you don't feel like writing another book, that you don't know what to write it about. However, a full of your content, the things that you put out there, your courses that you've put out, there's three or four different books to put out. I feel like. There's someone who's, who's learned how to distill ideas and build them into books. Now, I mean, I'm on book number six, started on starting writing seven, eight, and I've got another, you

I've seen, I've seen your, I've seen your, Disney draw of ideas. I know how many books you've got in your, in your locker.

I've showed you my, phone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just, I had to actually do that. I mean, yeah, I am. Yeah, but that's because when you open the doors, if, if you, spoke to me after my kebab shop menu design, I'd be like, what books? I would never stop designing. I would never stop. No, I would never start writing, but I'm fascinated. How was the book for you? Was it, was it, did it feel therapeutic? Did it feel like sort of mid, mid journey process? Is it in a way like a, this is the stop in my career? Did you, I believe you were approached by a publisher to actually make a

Yeah. Yes, correct. yeah, so I, I think. Yeah, so yeah, Rockport, um, um, Quarto, I think they're now reached out, I know you know them, um, so yeah, for me it was, I, I don't, I don't, I mean, people say never say never, but the book for me was, I think there was like a, a load of different, like I was drinking a lot when I was writing that book. We, I wrote it, obviously, very heavily during COVID, which was very lonely. I, The stuff I write about in the book about trauma and, the kind of, obviously the sexual abuse I experienced at the age of 11 was, yeah, I probably opened a lot of Pandora's boxes, when I didn't have the opportunity to have an outlet that I was like locked in my office, locked at home, drinking shit loads, writing a book, trying to process trauma, trying to write it in a way that, you know, just the whole kind of process for me, this isn't a book about trauma, it's a good book about kind of creativity and a lot of other stuff, but like for me, it's really important to share my story and show that I always like trying, like, whenever I'm sharing content, whether it's a talk or it's in the book, I always try and But even if it's a logo or a visual identity online, I think the stuff that happens before the thing that you're seeing is more interesting than the thing you're seeing because there's a story to it. And I try and bring that element of story telling to everything I do. maybe when I said to you that I wouldn't write another book, it's maybe just I just don't see another book in me right now, do you know what I mean? I don't, I don't feel that that's a, a vessel that, I don't know. I, I see myself dedicating that amount of time to, I mean, I'm not like a genius like you where I can figure out all of these ideas in months, do you know what I mean? For me, as a dyslexic and as a Kind of somebody who does struggle to articulate his thoughts, although, like, I must admit, the best thing that ever came out of that book was my ability to distill the information in my head into something that is, what I would usually do in a thousand words, I can now do in a hundred. Do you know what I mean? And that is what the book has allowed me to do, is how can I make this extremely difficult topic easy to remember? And, maybe there are other books, do you know what I mean? I don't know. Maybe I need to speak to you about self publishing. Maybe that's,

think there are, look, James, you're only on the book number one. When I did my first book, I was like, never again, like this is not going to happen again. But then, I'm, I'm, I'm quite actually, I really appreciate your admission about, how you wrote the book, because I wrote my second book, mostly half cut. I was in, I wrote it in a year when we were renovating house, I had a marriage counseling. it was literally, it was the heaviest year of, of, of my adult life, like going through counseling, like going through so much therapy. And, and I just literally, I would just get a couple of Western, so I was going to say it was a Western, 100 Westerns, I think it's like a really strong cider.

yeah, 7%. That's the stuff that used to get me going, yeah.

you don't, you don't have to, you don't have to get much to, to, to, to feel a good time. But I was, I was motivating myself. I was literally like, I was writing things I wanted to happen in the world. If that makes sense, you know, like thinking, you know, I want this to be, I want this to be, and, and, and it was therapeutic. It was absolutely therapeutic. Whereas every other time I wrote, I wrote things sober.

Yeah.

And it's just because I'm more at one with the ideas. I'm more at one with, this is how it is. I mean, You know how to draw a line, how to turn into a circle, how to turn into a shape. And that's the same with the words, you know, like it's, you write as much as you want and an editor can cut it down and help you how to summarize it. And it's a journey. it's, it's, I'm five years ahead of you and, Yeah, I just feel like if there's one thing that I want to do, it's just to actually formulate what you tell in the world in in the way that they can put in their pocket, take it home and read it when, when, when they've got the right time to, to actually, to connect with it. Because, when you said, I allow myself not to be, like, not to be correct all the time, it's just sometimes the content that you read, it's already behind you, or sometimes ahead of you, you know, sometimes you feel like. I don't particularly get this and I remember buying CDs that I didn't particularly like, but you persevered for a year Oh, I love this album now because I just, you align with that content. And I think that sort of happens with, because, because you're, you're thinking and your knowledge is there. It's just that, how do you put in the right time and how do you put in the right shape? And, you know, cause I feel like, for example, courses to me, I just feel like. You can't hold it. You know, you can't touch it. I've got lots of courses I've purchased for myself, for my learning and development, but you can't thumb through it. You can't put your, you know, you can't underline stuff. You know, you can, you can always print stuff out, of course, but it's just it's that the reason why the books are what they are for the last hundreds and hundreds of years is because of the nature of it. Like, it's not going to go away. It's not, what will ever change for, for years to come because. We, there is a reason why we've invented them and why they exist in the way they exist. So, yeah, I'm really thankful for your honest admission. And, and, I mean, look where it got you now. it's definitely worked out in a way where, you know, I think sets you on the path to where you think, you know, what you're doing courses. what's that plan for the next thing? Are you, are you, there's, there's more courses than I can think of already. There's a book, there's followers, daily reels.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, ultimately, like the purpose, I mean the big, the big vision for James, you know, for the world, I should say, is, free design education. That's That's my vision. there are going to be stages and steps and processes to get to that and variations of, um, but that, that's the big vision I have for the impact I want to leave on the world is try to make information as accessible as possible to people all around the world so they can then, you know, support their families um, support their communities. Um, now I understand along the way I have to look after myself as well. So that it can't just be like a, a free for all, there's going to be staged processes and staged, um, kind of, um, offerings I'd imagine. Um, but for me, this is something that I am not rushing into. I know it's what I want to achieve. I know it's going to take. I think a decade, you know, I'd like to say in a few years time, I'm going to have something. I would say that maybe a year's time, I'm going to have something pretty solid up. I know there's going to be iterations of that for the next decade or two. But that's the thing I'm spending a lot of time like with my clients funny enough, I'm spending a lot of time trying to find. figure it out first before I dive in. I'm spending a lot of time right now noodling around. cause I need to, I've like right now, like Made by James, Baby Giant, I've got a business partner, but I very much lead everything. I get in 90 percent of the client work. I build the audience. I've done all, all of this by myself. Don't know when I've got Made by James, Baby Giants, where it is. I've had some help, I get help with some work and stuff, but ultimately by myself, I know the next thing I want to build in the world. I cannot do alone. It's going to be impossible for me to do that by myself. I need help. I need guidance. I need support. I need. Investors. I need, I need some, I need people on my side who, who share my vision, believe in me, and want to come and take this ride with me. Now I, I have conversations with people lined up where, these things are going to come into fruition. And this is the stuff that I'm spending time with over the next few months is aligning people. aligning opportunities, trying to find the right people to help me, because that's the any, but there's loads of people out there can help me, and those people who want to help, but not all of them are the right people. So that is where I'm noodling, over the next, I would say 90 days to six months, I would say, is just making sure that Again, these foundations are built, it's built with the right intention, it's built in a way that has longevity, and it's built to support me and the people it was built for, so that is where I am right now, it's going to happen, do you know what I mean? I don't stop until things do happen, so it's just a matter of just, Like I said, like I don't want to rush into it. Old James would have already started it already and then figured it out as he, as he went. But the new James is a lot more intentional and methodical because he understands that is way more powerful, when done right.

I think that's just a sign of, sign of growing up and growing stronger and more resilient and more knowledgeable because. I love the quote by Abraham Lincoln, which says, give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. It's just like

Yeah.

the old me would be doing exactly the same, just jumping into things. And I think this is why we need those different stages of our careers of like, and our lives. Like you need to do things. Ad hoc, gang ho, crazy, you know, fail quickly, fail early, because like just work it out. Don't think about stakeholders and KPIs, just do things. But to build longevity, like every quick idea needs. The fermentation process, you just need to go ahead, let it sink, let it marinate, let them throw it around and then find out if it's something that's going to stay here a long time. yeah, I love hearing about your sort of free education idea when we were getting the top ups of coffee and the greasy spoon. Was it called Sunset? Was it called something called Sunset something? Yeah. No, I told it to, I told it to a friend.

will know, because I think it was a

No, because, yeah, I, I told it to a friend of mine'cause I saw him that the same afternoon I saw him. I was like, oh yeah, that one. Yeah. No, but yeah, no, I, I I I love having these conversation with you'cause it's just I think we are on, on a si on a similar paths, but I, I always enjoy. Coming to this with an open, like with a clean mind, just I want to learn about, I don't know about you because I can see everything you post into the world, but it's the thinking behind the work that, that's, that's showed me who you are and how you think and, and what you want to bring to the world and, and, and your sort of 10 year journey of, of bringing free education is, is great. And I think in a way, getting the right people on board and collaborating with people who are trying to do similar things, which I've heard from others that want to do something is, it's just a sort of. A sign of how much our industry has changed because I remember going to my very first design talk in 2005, going to see a big name, big name designer and I was like disheartened how rubbish and egoistic that was, And I was like, things have changed now. We are so much more open. I think who we are as humans make this better. And, you know, there are shortcuts that you can take as a, as a, as a young designer to actually to grow more mature, not before the experience comes by, by following conversations like these, I'm not following people like yourself to, to, to know that it's okay to open up and say, you know what, I may be rubbish at this, but I'll, I'll admit it. And that would get me somewhere further rather than trying Be in the corner and pretend that, your next big assets to a, a fortune 500 company. So James, thanks so much for making space. things were better with me at the beginning of my migraine. I got

you. Thank you for having me on, mate. It's always a pleasure chatting to you. Always a pleasure.

and I think it's the first of many. thanks very much. And yeah, we'll have to have another one very soon

I'll be, I'll be, waiting. I think we could speak all day. I'm ready for number two, three, four, five, six, and seven. Do you know what I mean? like a, we'll maybe have more Chats than you have books at one day. It's over. Do you know what I mean?

But let's make it happen. Let's make it happen. I can do what I can do. I mean, with my publishing schedule ahead,

It'll be fun.

don't you worry. Nice one. so much. Thanks so much. Good to see you. And yeah, speak soon.

mate.

you.

Thank you for listening to this episode of Creativity for Sale podcast. The show was produced and presented by me, Radek Malanich. Editing and audio production was masterfully done by Niall Neil mackay, from 7 million Bikes Podcasts, Theme music was written and produced by Robert Summerfield. If you enjoyed this episode and would like to support the podcast, please subscribe and leave a rating or review. To get your own action plan on how to start and grow a life changing creative business. You can get a copy of the Creativity for Sale book via the links in show notes. burning, and until next time, I'm Radim Malinich, your guide through this exploration of passion, creativity, innovation, and the boundless potential within us all.