Creativity for Sale Podcast - Episode S1 E57

How to adapt and thrive in the ever-changing world of illustration - Jelly London

Mon, 19 Aug 2024

"I would rather sometimes take a gamble on something that feels really different. If I can see a spark in it and I can see how we can get it to a commercial stage." Nicki Field "Being represented is not for everybody. For a lot of artists, it doesn't work. If you're switched on business wise, and you're happy with the way you market yourself, you probably don't need an agent." Chris Page



Show Notes Transcript

"I would rather sometimes take a gamble on something that feels really different. If I can see a spark in it and I can see how we can get it to a commercial stage." Nicki Field 

"Being represented is not for everybody. For a lot of artists, it doesn't work. If you're switched on business wise, and you're happy with the way you market yourself, you probably don't need an agent." Chris Page ~

This podcast features a conversation with Chris Page and Nicki Field from Jelly London, an illustration and animation agency. They discuss the evolving landscape of the creative industry, focusing on illustration and representation. 

The conversation covers topics such as adapting to industry changes, building trust between agents and artists, the impact of technology including AI, and advice for emerging illustrators.

Key Takeaways:

  • Adaptability is crucial: The industry has changed significantly over the years, and both agencies and artists need to be flexible and willing to evolve.
  • Trust is fundamental: The relationship between an agent and an artist must be built on trust and mutual understanding.
  • Uniqueness is valuable: In a saturated market, having a unique style or voice can help artists stand out.
  • AI is impacting the industry: While AI presents challenges, it's not replacing human creativity. However, artists and agencies need to be aware of its implications.
  • Networking is important: Building relationships and connections within the industry can lead to opportunities.
  • Commercial awareness matters: Artists need to think of themselves as businesses and develop marketing skills.
  • Representation isn't for everyone: Some artists may thrive without an agent if they have strong business acumen.
  • Global opportunities: The market has become more global, opening up new possibilities for artists and agencies.
  • Persistence pays off: Success often comes from continuous effort and putting oneself out there.
  • Human element remains crucial: Despite technological advancements, the human aspect of creativity and relationships in the industry remains invaluable.





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Nikki: [00:00:00] sometimes you can find yourself through replicating styles or that kind of exploratory play, this is the point that I always come back to you.

 and other agents might think differently, but for me, it's absolutely the guiding thing when I'm looking at work is just something that feels unique and true to you. Because I tell you what, an AI generator is not going to be able to do that. if that is your guiding North Star with trying to figure out who you are as a creative, 

There is a place for everyone in this industry. You don't have to just be this to be very successful and have a viable creative income and career. 

Radim Malinic: Hello and welcome to Creativity for Sale podcast. A show to help you start and grow your life changing creative career and business. My name is Radim Malinich and creativity changed my life.

You see, I believe creativity can change your life too. I even wrote a book about it and it inspired this podcast. I've set out to interview the world's most brilliant creatives, designers, writers, musicians, [00:01:00] makers, and marketeers about their life changing experiences with creativity.

If you ever wanted to know how people go from their humble beginnings to the pinnacle of their success, our conversation should provide you with an intimate look into triumphs, challenges, and untold stories behind their creative endeavors. We also discussed the highs and lows of creative careers and creative life.

So, thank you for joining me on this exploration of passion, creativity, innovation and the boundless potential within us all. Let creativity change your life. Are you ready?

 My two guests today are driven by working with purpose, exploring craft and celebrating talent. from problem solving through strategic thinking, they have found ways to evolve and adapt to meet the market requirements. Often working with some of the most celebrated talent and visual artists and illustrators worldwide.

It's my pleasure to introduce Nikki Field and Chris Page from Jelly [00:02:00] London.

Radim Malinic: It's my pleasure to have Chris Page and Nikki Thiel on my podcast today. How are you both today?

Chris: Yeah, not too bad. Thank you. How are you?

Nikki: Good. Thanks.

Um, for seeing you both because it's been a while since the last time we spoke. I have to be, I always try to be sort of on record about how I know my guests. And I don't know how far back we go. And I think we just deciphered as nearly 20 years. We've known each other and my.

Radim Malinic: admission is that you you as the jelly, as a being signed as an illustrator to the jelly in the past, have actually changed my life because this, the premise of this podcast is that creativity changed my life. But you need, a bit of hard work, some likes, some connections, some, some work to do it.

And I remember when I got signed up with [00:03:00] you guys things have changed for me pretty quickly. And have started something that I've got today. So I'm eternally thankful. I still remember the first call with you, Chris, when you said, How are you? How are you doing? I'm like, yeah.

And my life was never, the same. And I wanted to dedicate this episode, and to Barney, who sadly left this world. And, yeah, he was my first jelly agent, along with Chelsea. And the man was, yeah, one of a kind, it's, a shame that we've lost him.

Chris: Yeah. Rest in peace, Barney.

Radim Malinic: So as I said, Jelly and creativity changed my life, but how has your career and life stories have been as, as working in illustration? Cause it's such a intriguing industry that changes all the time. So Chris, you're the one who's responsible for all of this.

Chris: Well, yeah, I think, yes, I am responsible for it. So I do plead guilty to that accusation. I think it's changing so much and so [00:04:00] fast. it is weird and lovely to see you because when I look back at. Your career and our careers and how they've symbiotically grown and changed since we knew each other and what Jelly was like then as opposed to what it's like now is exponentially different.

It's really strange to think that it's in essence, it's the same industry, but it's so different, and what we've done, what we've had to do, like what you've had to do in order to adapt, survive and thrive within it. is incredible when you think about it, I remember taking you, we went up to Leeds on a train to do a talk.

Do you remember that?

Radim Malinic: Unfortunately, yes.

Chris: not long after you first signed and we were on the train and we were chatting about your life and where you'd been and your story up to that point. And I thought, guys, this is really, he's a really interesting guy. But at that stage, I think that was like one of the first uni talks.

that we'd done, or public talks that we [00:05:00] hosted. And now that's a regular occurrence for all of us. awards dues, talking to unis, talking to people, and the culture of what we do is so important now. And, We won a Grammy this year. it's just the weirdest journey and Nikki's, you know, Nikkibeing the curator of the talent.

it's so that's the kind of bit. That's the interesting bit. That's the kind of sweet spot for us because obviously we've got clients and then our other set of clients, which is our illustrators and our artists and the people that we represent. And that we're in the middle of that, we're at the hot spot of commerce and craft.

And,for Nikki, especially constantly looking out for new talent, I think it's interesting to always interesting to hear from her and see what she's looking at and who she's speaking to. So I'm going to hand it over to her.

Nikki: yeah, it's changed massively. I've been with the company for 11 years now. I only know this through, well, [00:06:00] obviously I'm part of the furniture, but I got a little LinkedIn reminder and people go, congrats. but yeah, and it's changed massively. And I think one of the key things over the yearswe've always known who we are, but I think also, we've also all lived through a pandemic and who on earth could have predicted that was going to be part of our lives.

And I think what a lot of companies have done coming off the back of that is a huge amount of introspecting, What are their values? What do they stand for? What is the greater good outside of your every day of running a business and surviving as a business and turning a profit as a business? And I think it feels really good at the moment because We really know who we are and we're very clear about what we can offer to our talent.

And also 

we're

a production company as well.

Radim Malinic: I wanted to talk about how things are going to look forward, but I think it's very important that we cover, as you said, [00:07:00] Chris, our adaptability in the last sort of 10 to 15 years, because when I signed up with you guys, it felt like the renaissance of illustration.

there were books about illustration being bestsellers selling literally tens of thousands. Illustration was the forefront of every ad campaign. And it was It was going to be up, up, up, up, up, up. And then you're like, where do we go next? And I remember with my work and my style, I was trying to preempt what's going to be the next style and what's going to be the next advertising sort of ingredient that would make everything amazing.

And it felt kind of unsustainable when you think about it, because you can't really do one thing over and over again and hope that it's going to be,here forever. With Jelly, obviously at that time you were running Three Blind Mice, which is now something different. So called something different, which is a production kind of agency.

And then you go on Jelly as a sole sort of representation. So what have you done from literally, if you were to summarize your last 15 years through Jelly and Three Blind Mice, sorry, there we go. We don't have a three hours, but we can summarize it quickly. because yeah, let's talk about adaptability because a [00:08:00] lot has changed since.

Chris: Yeah, I think what's changed for us is the people that we have spoken to and start, and now think of as our clients. We've had to broaden it. You've had to exclude some aspects of it because there are areas of the marketplace for illustration and animation where because of the way technology has worked, budgets have disappeared and shrank, right?

So publishing editorial for us is we don't do it anymore. We just, it's not our marketplace. We've made a conscious decision to not engage in that place. And in fact,if those opportunities will come in, do come in for our artists, we encourage them to just follow them themselves because There's nothing in it.

there's not enough. there's too much work and not enough money in it for a big commercial studio. we coming to that real, there's been a series of realizations and Nikki and I talk [00:09:00] about this a lot, is, it's never finished. It's never complete. Things are always changing all the time and you have to recognize that.

And so that was one big step for us. We just went, okay, we're not going to do that anymore. And then, when we work with you, most of our work came via ad agencies, design groups, third parties. And that was our sweet spot. Those are the people that we dealt with. So there was quite a small coterie of art buyers and people that controlled who we got our work from.

And I think that Has changed significantly now because as ad agencies have decreased in influence in our business and people like us have started to talk directly to clients, as I'm sure you do as well, as you moved higher up the chain, that means that you, your business model [00:10:00] has to change because you're, you have to look for a new business and market yourself to completely different people than you were doing.

Even pre pandemic, even that recently, I think it's changed that fastand the market's always changing, because these things are completely, there's all these different things that are either strengthening you or undermining you, you have to be aware of all the time.

and so you've got to have your radar switched on. And I think that Has been our strength, is in the middle of it, we know who we are, and then, but, so you have to maintain your own culture, be aware that everything around you is changing, all the time. And that I think is the big

Radim Malinic: answer, Chris,

I think what I'm getting from your answer is that it's being proactive. I think when you think about the previous culture that 20, 30 years ago, you can just have a stable of talent where people come to you [00:11:00] for the talent, for the particular skill, particular style.

And I think that's how things were driven in the past. Whereas, What has changed in the last few years is just the proactiveness of okay, yeah, you speak directly to the clients and actually you find your relationships much easier than when we used to have advertising agencies in the way, I think that's, it's a more fluid process.

Would you agree, Nicky?

Nikki: I think it's much more of a, it's a bit more of a free for all, if I'm really honest, because I think in the way that there was always such a rigid structure and like Chris was saying, our core base would be ad agencies. Yeah. I think as technology has evolved and everyone has the ability to speak to everybody.

And the market has got tougher,we've got ad agencies that are developing in house production companies. So it's almost like, in some ways there are clients, in other [00:12:00] ways, they're competing with us. And it's allowed, you've got direct brands that aren't necessarily seeing the value from their agencies of records in the way that they used to.

Because we have evolved as a company and because we've always been this really sweet spot of being hybrid between kind of animation production, we've recently dipped a toe into live action, we also are lettering and type. We're also artist representatives.we understand how to build teams. So brands are coming to production companies because they want a quicker, more agile, efficient cost time.

It's still the same value of the creative and it's just, the market has just shifted and it's global, we do projects with agencies in Australia and Korea, and we're working in China, the US is a huge market for us. So it's the possibility and who you can speak to [00:13:00] potentially get new business, whether you are a business working with talent or you're the talent yourself is massive.

Radim Malinic: So would you say that previously, It was more UK based, would you say that the, when you say your market has expanded because as a part freelancer, part representative illustrator, like the work, I remember putting my first website, which was incredibly bad, but it worked in 2006 and all of a sudden there were people from Dallas and Australia, like that all of a sudden there was a global interest, which is amazing in a way, but with you guys, did you, did that change?

Because for our history, like we used to be working with international clients, but did you say that since you've expanded your offering, that you've actually opened the doors more wider globally?

Yeah, we've now got, not a studio in Hamburg and a studio in New York, because, To service those markets and, it would be again back to when [00:14:00] we represented you in the early noughties, it was, UK, ad agencies that was, that's where we got our work. How that's a, it's a very small proportion of where we get our work from, tiny proportion.

Chris: And in fact, it's not really a, it's a market that we recognize and we'll service as and when they come to us of opportunities, but it's not where we look for work because,where most of our work comes from, is, where the money is, which is big tech, it's the big American tech giants and people like that.

we think about it. Most of our work probably comes from the West coast of America, right? So that's where those big companies are. that's where we get the bulk of our work from, because they are the people that, they're also the kind of clients that switched on enough to, and want the kind of visual content that we create, When you look at the UK, we've had this conversation, [00:15:00] internally about UK from an, like an illustration from an, an animation point of view, there might be half a dozen big animated TV spots a year

Nikki: created by UK ad agencies. There are 20 UK animation production companies trying to do, get, win those spots.

Chris: It's untenable. You can't just keep picking the same spot. you've got to look out, you know, and that, I think that applies to everybody's practice. Nikki said, it's open, it's free market. you've just got to lift up every stone and look underneath it.

Nikki: And technology doesn't allow you to do that.

 I think it's the, what I've been agenting for 20 years now. And I remember when I started, Even when I was starting out, I was using emails. It was still, it was obviously digital, but it wasn't, Instagram [00:16:00] wasn't a thing yet.it, I remember that some artists had websites, but it was still quite a new thing.

It's like it was so much emphasis was on going on taking portfolios, and that's how you grew. It was all about the relationships. You took out the portfolios and before that, the only way that art buyers would see the work would be looking at physical portfolios. And now there was so much online content everywhere.

Artists and companies have such a, there's such a, it's been democratized in a way. And I guess that's what I mean by less gatekeeping because you can just creatives. just go online and they can find someone. It doesn't mean they're the best person. The relationships are still really key and you need that expert knowledge to guide the process, butyou can find things so much easier than you used to be able to.

And I think that's just over the years has absolutely transformed everything.

Radim Malinic: can I challenge that point? You said you can find things, you can find things easier than ever before, which in an [00:17:00] essence is true. So I spoke, I had a Chris Doe on podcast a few weeks ago, and he talked about how they used to, as an animation and, like they used to do, music videos. And they would be part of these, like a showcase

Chris: to

Radim Malinic: Pardon?

Chris: rep line. Kristen Bell

Radim Malinic: Did you?

so you know him. yeah, so he was saying like how blind used to, there was pay for a couple of pages in a big book, massive big Bible, I would then as an independent, I remember paying for a page in like Serbin's book or like a book. illustration book, but you've got like 400 pages and you're one of the pages.

Nikki: So you still got one in 400 ratio of potentially being found. Now it's been democratized. So you can be anywhere you want, but the ratio is like one to a billion or something, because like you still got one page on your Instagram or one page somewhere It is. It is. However, I would counter that by saying you, you have to pay a lot of money to be in those annuals. That's why we never did [00:18:00] them. They weren't worth it. So it's but, I understand what you're saying in terms of everything is so visually saturated out there. But there's not paywall anymore.

And I think that is also really important for people coming into the industry where barriers have been removed. If they can push in the right directions and I know what you mean, cause there's so much more content out there and we are inundated with it. 

Radim Malinic: I wasn't saying that what was in the past was better by any chance, it was like somebody was making money because obviously they have created a product. Once they got the pages in, it's like an in fine magazine, you just fill it with ads and.

give it to people. So I think it's just the ratio because we've got more people. We've got more platforms. We've got more spaces where you can be seen, which is amazing because you never know when actually we can, someone can find you, which I think is absolutely amazing because you can be in Bogota or you can be in Vietnam.

You can be anywhere. And look at me and someone from Bogota can see this person from Vietnam. that we didn't have that before, which I think is [00:19:00] incredible. So I think for, in favor of a new talent and for new markets, I think this is all great, but it's just that. We have turned everything out by 11, like we've got more people, more, again, we hope we also have more work, this is I think the key still is you have to be something and have something which is almost sellable that actually that you can make that cut through.

Would you agree

Chris: you have to learn how to market yourself. Because youit's a shame, to a certain extent, you can't just be a fantastic artist and go, I'm a fantastic artist. And you're gonna get work because you've just said, you've gotta get past that.

 you've gotta cut through the noise. And how do you, so you do have to learn to a certain extent how to network market, all the things that, that you were off, which you see people are out there. You get to meet these people and it's difficult because.

you have to push yourself into slightly uncomfortable [00:20:00] places in order to get your work seen, heard, recognized, and that for individual artists is a challenge because, most artistic people, in my experience, are fairly introverted. So for them, for, it's easy for us, we go and do talks at, art schools and say, you've got to go out there and push yourself and you need to, market yourself and you do that.

And you're looking at all these little kids and you're thinking they don't want to, they don't want to do that. They don't know how to do that. It's a different, it's a different degree. But then I guess that's where people like us come in. is that we can do that if you're, fortunate enough to sign with someone who can help you do that.

we have a team of people. We have a marketing team who understand the culture and the people that work with us and will, ring you up and find out what makes you tick. And, we will get our heads around What our artists want, where they want to be, who they want to be seen by, and we will try and tailor a [00:21:00] program, if you like, of kind of marketing and sales that they can do.

that suits that. But I know what you mean. But then, for Chris Doe back in the blind days, in order for his work to be seen in London, he had to get us to take his reel out and show it to people in London. That doesn't have to, you don't need to do that anymore.

Radim Malinic: I think Chris Doe doesn't need to do that anymore, does he? But he does something different. so I'm trying to intersect. good point about the articles. I think there's nothing scarier when you are in your early twenties and says, if you want to work with this agency, give them a call. I was like, I can't think of anything worse.

So I can't, it's, Things have changed. Nothing, as you said, everyone needs to have, it helps to have the mindset of like you market yourself. I went to a business conference the other day. I just found myself at elite business conference, listening to AI talks. And somebody said, we are all in sales now.

We are all in sales. And you think. In a way, the level, the playing field has leveled because we had to [00:22:00] come out of our shells. we had to actually say, you know what, this is who I am. This is what I stand for. This is my opinion. This is my, this is some of my values. Because before it was like, as you said, you can be the most talented artist sat in your bedroom.

Not necessarily make a cutthroat at all, not make a business because you're thinking, my work's doing the talking. Whereas it's changed. I have a podcast. I never thought I'd be doing a podcast, but it happened because I've been writing books and stuff. So it's, everyone's like in the words of Mickey Flanagan, everyone's interesting now.

But it's more than actually, we have more conversations. We actually open up who we are because I always believe that you buy into person that you work with for who they are first, you want to enjoy the collaboration, you want to actually have someone who actually say, you know what, I'm here for a reason, rather than I'm great, aren't I?

You gotta pay me now, which I think that's what we had in the past.

Nikki: but I would say, I think that's because of oversaturation, the ways in which people are just. seeing [00:23:00] content constantly and the means that people have to access potential clients. But also, I think it's changed because, Everyone has access to everything. It is more competitive because no longer you're just competing with the, your peers that are illustrators or animation directors in London, you're competing with the talent that are in other countries all over the world because production is now global.

We have the ability to do that, but I would, I've always maintained that. The ability to be able to market yourself and as a creative working the commercial side of the industry, it's not fine art. It's vocational is. you have to think about yourself as business, as a business, even if it's just you, no business will survive if you're not able to market it.

So I don't think that's fundamentally changed. I just think the [00:24:00] ability to do it in ways that cuts through all the noise, like you said, Chris, that challenge is greater.

Chris: this is, and that's interesting because what goes back to what you were saying, Radim, about people are not just interested in the work, the things that they hook into who you are. And why they want to work with you, the other reasons that they want to work with you. And I think for us as a, coming back to the original point, quite neatly, is that what we've had to do, or what we wanted to do is evolve our culture as a business so that we're not just a company that represents artists.

we are a company that represents artists, directors, and designers, but we're also, we're We also now talk about the people who are behind that. So our producers, our project managers, our culture internally, who we like to talk to. We have a mission, we have a purpose. we're an EOT, we're an employee ownership trust.

we're [00:25:00] hopefully on our, on a mission to at some point, all of these things now become more of a conversation because people are not less Oh, look,there's a lot of great artists. they want to know about you and what you think and what you represent and your approach to business.

Cause they're buying into that as much as they're buying into the thing that comes out at the end of it. And I think that's really important.

Radim Malinic: Yeah. The world is, as you say, the world is changing, I think, and it's for the better, because I think it just feels, it feels there's more opportunities, because I'll close the door on the past quite neatly with saying, there was a limited pool of work 20 years ago, there was a limited number of agencies, like there was loads of illustrators, and I remember there'll be a, like an inquiry for a commission, and then you would see it.

Even somebody else doing it or someone else, it's just, it would crop up. So it just, it felt like we were all having a scrap for the same piece of work. Whereas now it feels like, you know what, we can almost invent what the next [00:26:00] piece of work is. I think that this is the best sort of ability, like everything's been democratized.

So I want to talk about what you guys said about having a talent, potentially not being able to market themselves really well. And then you guys actually building that talent and creating a marketing program and stuff. what would you. suggest to someone who wants to be a represented illustrator?

let's go literally like the kindergarten of illustration, like, where do we start? Because you can't show up and go I've made five pieces of illustration. I think I should be represented now. So what is the, almost like the ideal trajectory of someone who wants to come and say, I like these guys, I want to work with them, want to be represented.

Because back in the day when I was represented, Everybody wanted to be represented. And usually that was like, I've got no work. I need someone to find me work. I'm thinking if you've got no work, there's no, no magician who'd be like, Hey, he's a million pounds worth of work a year. So it's more Hey, I've got an acoustic guitar.

Can I be signed up to Sony? It's no, it doesn't work that [00:27:00] way. So what would you, Nicky, what would you say? What's the sort of development thing that people could think about?

Nikki: think the first thing is, there's no magic formula for this, doing something with your work that feels really true to you, that's going to have longevity behind it, don't be too trend driven, like you've got to, And it's really hard because I've seen this, I've seen artists who, where this has come together while they're studying.

We've also worked with artists who don't have a formal education in the arts and that's absolutely fine as well. I, talent comes from everywhere, anywhere, but you can see where Oh, sometimes it can take a really long time or years before there's an epiphany of this is my thing. I found my stride. This is my true visual language and voice and that's it.

But you've got to be not too, there's so much derivative work out there. So it's doing something that's really true to you, that you believe is unique and you can fully [00:28:00] be like, that's me. I think that's the first thing, and an agent can help you, I love working with artists, and we work with, we have a bit of a mini program called Futures, which is artists that kind of making their first advances, and some of them are younger, some of them aren't, it, again, doesn't matter, it's just about trying to support artists.

talent trying to break into the commercial world. And sometimes you can pull on the threads of what in a portfolio and try and Oh, this is really interesting. This feels fresher. what about this? Or I'm not that feels a bit, it's, I think speaking with your peers, being really open to candid, Getting in front of as many people as possible, maybe before you go and try and see different agents as well.

Being clear about what you want from an agent, because like you said, there isn't just a magic formula of, Oh, I've signed, they're going to get me loads of work. It doesn't work like that. It's a long term commitment that we both partner in. And. Just keepin on, crackin at [00:29:00] it,

Radim Malinic: we're talking about young talent, like no one, if no one's 56 going, Hey, I think I'll be illustrator tomorrow. that kind of thing. I just discovered my thing. And I'm sure there's quite a few, but obviously we get more going and pushing younger spectrum.

And it's quite hard to know who you want to be. at their younger age, because we are bamboozled and intoxicated, brought up, calling my book, Mindful Creative, as a highway of creativity in life. you see those Dan Widges, and Kellyanne is running in that sort of fast lane because they've been working at it for a long time.

And then you like, on your hard shoulder, in your sort of illustration fiesta, so to speak, you're like, I want to do that style, not that style, this style. because you say, do what's true to you.

We're looking for acceptance. And we are more likely to emulate somebody else.

Because if you do that thing, that's so weird and so unusual, you're like, I'm doubting myself. unless you are so driven and so dedicated to your sort of unusual illustration style, you are quite likely [00:30:00] to think, Should I be borrowing or should I be emulating?

Should I be jumping on this bandwagon? Because it's hard to be young and confident with what you've got. Does it make sense?

Nikki: It does, but I also think the original point was, the original question was, How do you put yourself in the most successful place to gain an agent? And I would rather, and I, every agent is different, I would rather sometimes take a gamble. most times take a gamble on something that feels really different.

If I can see a spark in it and I can see how we can get it to a commercial stage that isn't compromising the practice of that artist, then something that is, I think there's a place, there is definitely a place in terms of. as an individual creative practice in terms of, obviously being inspired by and [00:31:00] trying different things and leaning on different styles and leaning on the people you admire.

But that's not the work that I think will get you an agent, unless it's an agent who is looking to fill that gap in their roster. But we've always been very single minded we need something in this area, but we don't want someone that's like a, Oh, they're a bit like so and 

they're a bit like so and You want someone that's doing that again and evolving that need into the next. What's next? So I appreciate it. It's hard.

Chris: yeah, I think you want to,you want to create, and you're more likely to have more longevity if you create a niche rather than follow one.I think for us, even us as agents, there are all these different agencies and sometimes you'll look at another artist who's represented by another agency and think, Oh, they're doing really well.

I wonder if we could,we should get someone like that. But then we all, we've always got notes. that's a big, that would be a massive step, but other agents do it, like we, other agents, you go oh, that's a bit like [00:32:00] our artists, but they obviously think, now they're doing really well, there's money in that, but it doesn't last because then you're instantly oversaturating the market.

So you're instantly driving the prices down and no one's interested in the creatives and people who are commissioning the work are bored of it. So the thing to do is to be, creatives, art directors, creative directors, clients, they want the next, they want to see the new thing. They want to see something that excites them, not, oh, it's a bit like that.

It's a kind of watered down version of that. that's nice, and I, we've done, you go to New Blood or some, or a degree show and you look at the work and sometimes you think, ah, come on, you've just, that's just a, that's just a little bit of a cod version of something that we've all seen so many times before.

And we got that. Bring me something a little bit, different and exciting because then We're excited because we're representing something new and fresh and exciting and you're going in and going look what we found For [00:33:00] us for agents. I think it's really For us, I can't speak for all agents because I've never worked for another one.

For us, it's always it's always great to go, look, not only have we got all these great people that you've heard of already, but look what we found, so we've got this kind of track record of discovering good people and breaking them, if you like. So I think there's more value in that for us than, oh, it's a bit like them from that other place.

Radim Malinic: Nicky, I liked your answer,about Making something interesting, actually commercially viable, like actually saying let's find something weird and wonderful and let's actually let's work with that rather than having someone who emulates somebody different because my note was here, do you want to be a chameleon or do you want to double down on your uniqueness?

And, Chris, you said it's that really strange Venn diagram where. When you want it the most, you're most confused because you haven't got the experience, so you might have the talent, but you're still missing the knowledge and the experience.

And you fill in [00:34:00] those circles as you go along. And I think about back when I signed up with Jelly and I had the most enthusiasm ever, I was coming from a graphic design background. When I look back, I knew what buttons to press, but my experience wasn't there. And I look back, I'm like, I'm glad I was in the right place in the right time.

Well, my experience was like five years behind, be like, Oh, what the flip was I doing there? We could have done this differently, but life just happens at that time. I think I remember how keen I was that I wanted to be signed or how keen I was to be working with big clients because I knew how good I want to be.

And it's kind of like a live journey actually to work on this, but I was definitely part of a style. there was a certain vogue that I was part of and luckily in the front of the queue, which was helpful, but, yeah, it can feel really, tempting to say, Oh, I've seen that style. I want to be that, because when you're finding your feet, [00:35:00] it can take a bit of time to actually do that.

So I like that you look like, it was more like an A& R, in the music you would have A& R, and that's what it sounds like, what you do with your talent.

Nikki: absolutely. Because there's, and I think that's also where we, we're always going down rabbit holes on social media platforms, we get a lot of submissions, but we mostly you know, we're really active and also really trying to push beyond where we might easily find it.

Where might you not usually look, where can you find, where can you find it? And also in the periphery of the industry where people may not have access to, or may not, their work may not yet be featured on It's Nice That. It's oh great, they've been featured on It's Nice That, let's see if they want an agent, that feels really easy.

it's not necessarily easy to sign that person, but it's like, where do put your efforts beyond,Where we find our talent, we have to make sure that we are working hard to not just [00:36:00] source it from the obvious places.

And I really truly believe in that because otherwise it is just a, like the center of the industry serving the center of the industry and we want to be bringing people in.

Chris: I think it's also worth mentioning at this point. that we are talking about quite a narrow band of illustration, right? That kind of represented illustrators who have a very specific style and quite often when you do Again, going back to doing talks at colleges, there are lots of kids there who don't have a specific style, are unsure of their style, and are nervous because they can do lots of different pastiches, lots of different styles, they can visualize, they can do concept art, stuff like that.

So I think it's, we've got to remember that is also a Huge part of the industry and for us as well, we have our represented talent, but we get loads and loads of projects where we need people who are adaptable and quick, and like all the visualizing side and the [00:37:00] scribing and live art side of Think Artfully.

There is this huge, in the gaming industry where they're doing concept art, there's all this stuff as well. So I think it's, we're talking about quite a niche. represented very highly stylized artists who are going to have a big profile and get work that way. But, there's going to be in house work at design agencies and ad agencies where if you're, quick, adaptable and clever and can design as well, you're going to get work.

I think if we are talking to people who are starting out, it's important that we don't forget them because they're the bedrock of the industry as well. and it's what we do is really important because everything else is lots of what we end up doing is built on that.

Nikki: Definitely. I think that's a really good point. And there was something Radim that you said about, right place, right time. And that always feels like a really lucky sentiment. And for some people it can be luck and it can be about access and it can be [00:38:00] about already having contact and absolutely. But that also comes back to connecting with people.

And I think that is what I would absolutely advise for, people that are starting out and feeling a bit lost or like really build your peers, lean on your peers, build your community, build your networks and not in a a networky like wearing a name badge like I'm, there's so many opportunities within this industry to, just get to know people in a really genuine way.

And if you're putting your genuine self forward, the more you can be in front of people, the more you are willing to learn, the more you just soak up, all of that is so valuable. And that is what will also lead you to being in the right place at the right time, because you're

building, you're maximizing the number of opportunities to know.

The people that might end up somewhere that could give you an opportunity or pass a little nugget of information on that say, so and so is looking for something. Why [00:39:00] don't you get in touch? I'll introduce you.

That sort of stuff is invaluable.

Radim Malinic: I think my point about being in the right place in the right time is I came knocking on your door at the right, not at the right time. 

 like everything I've ever got. I asked for being in the right place in the right time. It's just like turning up at the train station and the train is there. Sometimes you show up, it's not the right time.

it's not going to come every 15 seconds. And it's I still 24 years later, still write emails every day about the things I want to do next. this is the beautiful thing about having a turn on curiosity. We are never finished. That's the beautiful thing. And sometimes it's heartening, 

it feels scary to be selling yourself as a creative.especially if you don't have outside validation or swelling bank account going, you know what? It doesn't matter if no one commissions me for six months and it doesn't matter if I don't get any work, it's the insecurity.

I mean,Well, I say that the four ingredients for our creative industry is ego, ambition, [00:40:00] insecurity, and anxiety. Like we are all kind of those folks with components in equal measure, because you want to put yourself out there. Like your ego drives you. okay, I would like to have credit. I would like to do this work.

I've got ambition. I'm going to knock on that door, but I'm not really sure what's going to happen. I'm quite anxious about what might happen. And I think it's when you put all of those things aside and thinking, you know what? I want that thing. if I'm not standing in front of a queue, someone else will be there.

Nikki: And it's just I'm happy to share the queue. I'm happy to be chosen second or whatever. But I think it's that drive that everything I've ever got was like, I've asked for it. Yeah. And I think that's my thing about luck becauseit can be really, easy looking in. And again, I know I'm going back to the subsection of, highly successful artists who,for example, your Kelly Annas, Dan Woodcher, it's, externally, it can look so glossy, it can be [00:41:00] like, Oh my God, how lucky, how did they, it's they have worked their asses off.

There have been struggles, there have been challenges, there have been absolute moments of deep doubt. There has been, and I know that not, I know those artists very well, and I know that not one of them would begrudge me saying that, because they will, it's, nobody is just Teflon, or it just, it's like everybody is a human being doing creative work, trying to find their place in the industry.

And it is, it's about drive. Confidence. If you don't have confidence, it's a really difficult thing to say. And I'm not sure that I could have done this, but you've got to fake it.

Chris: you have, because that freelance insecurity never goes, the job that you're working on is always going to be the last job you're ever going to get, 

freelance illustrator I've ever met or freelance director or freelance creative, no matter how successful they are, deep down inside, there's a little voice [00:42:00] going, you may never work again.

This could be it. So you really can't make a good chance of it. And that, that you you have to use that to drive you on. And you might not, just might not be in the right place at the right time. 

There's a kind of, there's a fear and insecurity at the, Bottom of it, you've got to use that to, to push you forward, unfortunately,

Nikki: I think if we didn't have that fear and insecurity. I think we would potentially get lazy when you think about it because we need that stride. We need that push. We need that sort of survival instinct because I shared studio with Dan for five years and we know about each other a lot of things, especially like about the ups and downs and, being new parents and all of that stuff.

Radim Malinic: And, Dan lives and breathes what he does, but. He's incredibly focused. Like he, he's Dan Boudreau, the illustrator, because there's only one Dan Boudreau illustrator spot left in the world, like it's him and he's happy, to [00:43:00] push that forward. and as a sort of creative brand, I talk in my books about being a brand of creativity because you want to be known for something.

You don't want to actually like this is what I do, double down on who you are. And. We've done, I've never seen, it was great to watch his illustration practice because I know he told me that when he was at uni, he was doing a completely different style of work and then something happened and then a blossom from that and we all know like his sort of his project that, did like a thousand emojis over, Yeah. 10 weeks you always have to put in that stint, that shift, that's something that's going to break your career because thinking about it, like a footballer, Chris, you're a Palace fan. when we think about illustration, we think okay, I've been doing it for a little while and I need to break through now.

Whereas from a position of a young player, like to actually make You know, Stanford Bridge, starting 11. It takes a bloody long time to get there. sometimes we think we should be ready and sometimes it's quite hard to be told [00:44:00] like, you're not ready yet, or like you need to work on yourself because I really want it now.

But again, it's just the ego and insecurity fighting together. and it's just like in your line of work, what you guys do kind of reminds me of the sentence from Mad Men, when the secretary comes in, it's so what'd you do? Like you're a bit of their mom, bit of their nurse, whatever, therapist, you need your painkillers, whatever.

And I think this industry, as you said, like as a freelancer, you never know what's coming next and it keeps you on your toes and quite rightfully. And sometimes it's supposed to sometimes be too much. How do you deal with that human side of things? Because you more or less like you're expanding your family and you don't know these people and you don't know, you'd never know what's coming next.

So how is that sort of emotional strain and intelligence in play in looking after your talent?

Nikki: we're a very human bunch Jelly and think artfully and the overall group. And we're, I think that's part of our culture [00:45:00] is that we've. Our team of personalities and the way that they come together is so intrinsic to who we are as a company and that is easily extended to our talent, because first of all,we always, when we're looking at talking to talent and taking them on.

Who they are as a human is always so important to us. if they've got fantastic work, we don't think there's a chemistry there or we're going to be able to work together through there. You've got to build an enormous amount of trust with a talent you're working with on a roster, because you're looking after their career.

You're looking after, money. there's, so we've got to really feel that, Connection in the right way to start with, so we're very on that when we start to work with an artist. It's not ever just about the work, it's about who they are as a person and what drives them, what motivates them, getting to know them, [00:46:00] all of that stuff.

Great communication.it's life. life comes first. it's work, and it's creative, and we're all really passionate about it, and we love what we do, and we have a business to run, and they themselves are their own business, but also, life gets in the way, and we're all humans, and you just gotta, sometimes you just gotta move work stuff aside, and, That's fine.

It's it's what we do for each other because we're in this together. We've made a long term business commitment, but also we're a creative partnership. And also a lot of the time we're friends because we've built that over time. You've built that trust.

Chris: yeah.

Trust is key, isn't it? trust is really key. any illustrator, if you don't, if there's a kind of element of mistrust or distrust, because you're, it's not the agent for you, if you can't trust these people to have your best interests at heart, then don't do it. That's, yeah, it's genuinely true because from our perspective, we are doing so much stuff while [00:47:00] they're.

Asleep, right? New York's selling marketing. See, there's stuff happening all the time. So you can, as an illustrator or someone who's being represented, you are trusting that this activity is going on. So you have to go it's going to be all right. These people really are going to look after me, negotiating contracts, managing projects, helping to produce work, all of this stuff that we can help them with.

That only works if there's trust in that, because each of those transactions, if you rub against it, if you rub against what your agent is trying to do to help you, and we have had this where we've engaged with people in the past and we haven't been able to get that for whatever reason, it's just not quite.

And then you have to turn around and go, Look, I just did that. We'd love to rep, and they've been, talented people, it just doesn't really work, you want to look, you want to take more of, more, because being represented is not for everybody, just to, [00:48:00] to a lot of artists, again, coming, and we, I say this when we go to colleges, being represented by an agent, it's like some kind of Holy Grail, it should not be the Holy Grail.

lot of artists, it doesn't work, if you're switched on business wise, and you're happy with the way you market yourself, and you can manage your own projects, and you just, you're happy with the way that you outreach and talk to clients. Then that's great. you probably don't need an agent, but if you've got loads of work and you need support or you recognize that there's a weakness and when we have a conversation with an artist or an illustrator or a designer,that kind of initial conversation is okay.

Where are the gaps? Where do you need us to help you most? because it might not be, it might be some artists bring work to us. They were already getting loads of new business. They don't need help with new business, but they need help producing it or negotiating or, they're worried about their IP.

And we can help them with all of those things. So it's not always, it's not always a straight transaction. Like you said earlier already, if I'm going to [00:49:00] get an agent, they're going to bring me loads of work. That's not necessarily going to happen, but if you recognize that, but you can recognize the other things that an agent can do for you and you need them because you might not, but if you need that, then that's the way to go, but it's not for everybody.

Radim Malinic: Absolutely. I think it's necessary to talk about the emergence of AI. Let's,let's try to wind up on that little point. so I think it might be the age when I saw the emergence of generative AI. I'm like, yeah, whatever, there's just like with everything else, I've been grinding a few points on this podcast to death, which is Kindle wasn't the end of books.

Internet wasn't the end of books, lots of other things, but like they, they always come and go and they create a bit of a noise, bit of a hoo ha, and then it just, we go back to normal, 

 what we've summarized for this conversation is that if you put your soul in it, there'll be another soul looking for, for your services, for your assistance.

Like I think it's all about [00:50:00] human exchange of information

Chris: Well, you know what we were saying about publishing and editorial earlier,there's going to be a gap there for AI generated work, but, we, do you remember NFTs? that's what we, wasn't that long ago, was it? Everyone was like up in arms about it. I think from our perspective, and we've spoken about this recently.

Our clients are now very specific, 90 percent of them, that they don't want AI used in any of the work that we generate, and will not commission work that's got AI involved in the process, because. They don't trust it. They don't want anything. They don't want to get, it's work for hire. They don't want to get sued, and we put in our, we're going to, we're putting in our contracts that we can't, you can't use this to, to generate AI.

I think you're right. I think it will find a place, but it's not our place.

Nikki: Yeah, I don't think we're really gonna know how and if it will affect [00:51:00] the kind of commercial content that we're in the market to create until the outcome of these lawsuits that are happening, because that's going to form the basis of the IP law and if and how it's regulated moving forward.

And that's at the moment where, Chris, exactly like you said, clients aren't going near it because it's so unclear and that's what business affairs, legal departments for huge corporate clients trade in. They want certainty. There's absolutely nothing certain about how AI has been trained or the source material.

So right now, I think it's just biding our time. It's a new tech, and it, and I understand, I really do understand why, especially the artist community are so up in arms about it because, as a whole, they're already competing with, Trying to maintain and build a sustainable career and income as freelance, but it's not good. It's not going anywhere. So I think the more people can educate [00:52:00] themselves and engage with it and learn about it, and I hate to say it because I know it sounds so threatening, but, you can't just be defiant about it and ignore it because it's not going to go anywhere.

Chris: True.

Nikki: Yeah,

Radim Malinic: a conversation with Chris Doe about it, back on a Seth Godin quote, and it's you're not going to be edged out by AI. alone, you're going to be edged out by someone who's using AI, like they're going to have a competitive advantage. And, when we go back to, the work we used to do, like that sort of pitch work for ad agencies and like comping stuff and Photoshop 

Andit was a great learning curve, but now we can generate that. scamp So you've brought out like a whole day of work to 30 seconds. So you actually can use the eight hours and 59 minutes and 30 seconds. Did I just invent a nine hour day?

to create word that actually involves you, actually we can develop further because I always say AI is like a really strong calculator. Like we always have calculators. We always have mathematicians. it's just like, how do you [00:53:00] get somewhere further? Because the things that used to take and retouch.

It's a press of a button now, this is the things that we've actually, it's like ancestorial stuff. Like we don't have to hunt for food every day. we've got shops and fridges, we can focus on other things. That's how we developed as a society.

Nikki: the thing that's really tough about that is that. it is if you look at what's going on with the freelance design market, for instance, at the moment, or retouching, there is a lot of the staff that would normally be free. You would, company would normally supplement freelance.

you can do some basic retouching with Photoshop generative fill now, so there is definitely going to be a human labor cost to the tech. it's what happens when new tech comes in. It's happened times and times in the past.

it's trying to balance being optimistic about what the tech can do, but also being mindful that is going to squeeze the market in certain ways. Mmm,

Radim Malinic: in my opinion, it goes back to adaptability because. [00:54:00] You can be, with a little tweak of a mindset and a little push, you can actually be amazing at something that you didn't even know you can do, because I think if you can be replaced by a button, generative fill,what can I do with the skills?

Because you have, when we talk about those three Venn diagrams, like you have got the experience diagram pretty filled up, you know what things can do and how you can apply yourself. So I think. If there's one key sort of message from this is obviously adaptability. Like the world is never going to be the same way again.

 Because you can actually drive your destiny and your future, because if something doesn't work, you can fix it. You're like, okay, I can learn about this. And I think in my opinion, that's been one of the most amazing things in the words of Steve Jobs, like the world around you wasn't created by people more know wiser than you.

 But it's that realization that shit, life is amazing. Like you can do so many things that seems unattainable in a past life. like you have people trying to look out for you, Your interest, and I say, [00:55:00] oh, don't be an illustrator. Don't be an artist. There's no money in it. Oh, hell yeah. be what you want to be because you go on YouTube and there are people knitting for, no, for a living. People streaming video games for a living. Be the thing that you want to be. I think that's my key, takeaway from where we are right now and what's happening because we have democratized so many things.

And, if you want to be someone, then you can be that someone, Do you agree?

Chris: Well, there's a lot to unpack there, Radim, but yeah,

yeah, that's fine. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I think, technology. If used wisely is definitely can help you in whatever your practice to, to improve and reach people that you wouldn't have, that's where what we've been saying is that is to help you don't, use it wisely, it's back to that whole AI thing is in the wrong hands.

Of course, it's a dangerous animal, but. [00:56:00] hopefully used cleverly and it will find it'll find a level and like all of these new technologies come another tool, it'll become a place, a friend of mine is a creative director, a big London agency, and he's learned AI and he's now presenting his concepts.

He's not. He's visualizing his own concepts and presenting them to the clients. But the problem he's got is he's now presenting these concepts to the clients. The client's saying, yeah, I want that. And he's Oh no, you can't have that. That's something I've done. We're not allowed to use that. So then he's having to unravel what he's created and presented to these people.

And I was like, well, you're kind of making a run for your own back by using that technology in the wrong way, because you're doing something so highly finished because he's so into it. He's doing so something so intricate and highly finished, programming the lens that he wants on the photograph that's going to be used in the concept.

But so when it comes to the end of that, the client, who is just going, yeah, that. he's undone all his good work with one [00:57:00] stroke.

Radim Malinic: Incredible. I saw the talk by Sky Creative at, of Barcelona, and they were showing Previs for TV commercial, and it's just like whiskey clay models. They look quite scary, but they look quite scary for a reason. So no one buys into it. let's have that.

Nikki: a good point.

Chris: we've all.

We've got Think Heartfully, we've got an arm that does visualising, and more of our clients are coming back for simple, like black and white pencil visuals, because they're already getting nervous about, it looks like AI, it looks too much of a finished thing. So it's already unravelling, they want a pencil sketch.

It's weird.

Radim Malinic: around, right?

I want to finish on the point, Nikki, that you said you actually find more talent than the one that comes to you.you said you actually go to the places. So as a closing point, what would you suggest to someone who wants to get into illustration?

we've covered all of these points,and throughout this hour, but how would you prepare yourself to be [00:58:00] found?

Easy

Nikki: That's a big, that's a big question, isn't it? I'll tell you what was interesting, because when, again, we were talking about AI, talking about the human value in work and creative. and going back again to conversation we were having about how sometimes you can find yourself through replicating styles or that kind of exploratory play, this is the point that I always come back to you.

 and other agents might think differently, but for me, it's absolutely the guiding thing when I'm looking at work is just something that feels unique and true to you. Because I tell you what, an AI generator is not going to be able to do that. if that is your guiding North Star with trying to figure out who you are as a creative, and if you want to be a very, singular focused illustrator or commercial artist that has a very, Known, bespoke, custom signature style, because Chris, you made an incredibly valid point.

There is [00:59:00] a place for everyone in this industry. You don't have to just be this to be very successful and have a viable creative income and career. But I think if that is your goal, You've just got to follow your gut and be tenacious and put it out there. And I don't think you, I would trade the word ego for sort of confidence, because I think they're different things.

I think just pushing and pushing and pushing and being Confident and having the faith that if you keep putting yourself out there for the opportunities and growing your network and just keep being active, then it will find its place because you're working really hard at it. The minute you stop working at it, the minute it might not work.

You've really got to drive. It is hard that maybe that sounds a bit wafty, but I just think it's that tenacity. That's the stuff that cuts through.

Radim Malinic: Yeah, I think we can do another hour on how to replace ego for [01:00:00] confidence. as it comes up in many talks and many slides,people don't know what they're doing or they try to work it out. And I think sometimes being in that sort of slightly gray spot, like not knowing exactly where things are heading next and stuff, I think that's the ingredient for actually for longevity because,you can have it easy, you can be, it can be celebrated, but.

We know that there's people who have all of that and still doubt themselves very much, because the freelancer mindset, as you said, I don't know if I'm working again, and I think as you, as we just summarized, like there's a spot for everyone and actually there's a work for everyone. It just depends what opportunities you want to link up with 

it was great to see you both. it's great to talk to you because obviously we had a parallel sort of careers. It's like we are up to date. I kind of left Jelly because I was too much of a, chameleon.

I was just doing too many different things. He didn't know what to do with me. And, yeah, I'm very grateful for the years that we spent together because they were, really fun. And I'm glad we still got a connection some years later. So it's, [01:01:00] yeah, it's wonderful. And actually it's a testament to what you guys have been saying is it's a human business first and, colorful second.

Chris: it's nice to still be in touch. It's lovely to see you again, mate.

Nikki: Definitely.

Radim Malinic: Oh, thanks very much. And, Yeah, I hope that you find most amazing talent and yeah, keeps going being amazing for a long time to come.

Chris: Thank you. Cheers.

Nikki: Thanks, Rudeen. 

Thank you for listening to this episode of Creativity for Sale podcast. The show was produced and presented by me, Radek Malanich. Editing and audio production was masterfully done by 

Mackay from Seven Million Bikes Podcasts.

Theme music was written and produced by Robert Summerfield. If you enjoyed this episode and would like to support the podcast, please subscribe and leave a rating or review.

To get your own action plan on how to start and grow a life changing creative business. You can get a copy of Creativity for Sale book via links and show notes. As always, keep those creative fires burning. And until next time, [01:02:00] I'm Rodney Malini, your guide. Through this exploration of passion, creativity, innovation, and a boundless potential within us all. 






Radim Malinic

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