"I tend to treat my life with an open hand. Don't hold things too tightly. Whatever happens happens, I'm only 36. I've lived a full life."

Rony Mikhael shares his journey as an immigrant creative, from his early days in Kuwait to building a successful career in Canada. He discusses the challenges of adapting to a new culture, finding his passion in design, and developing a versatile skill set across various creative disciplines. Rony emphasizes the importance of embracing opportunities, stepping out of one's comfort zone, and maintaining an open mindset throughout one's career.

Takeaways:

• Adaptability is crucial for success, especially for immigrant creatives.
• Developing a diverse skill set can lead to unique opportunities and perspectives in the creative field.
• Embracing challenges and stepping out of your comfort zone can lead to personal and professional growth.
• Maintaining an open mindset and following opportunities can lead to unexpected and rewarding experiences.
• Finding contentment in your journey is important, rather than rigidly adhering to a predetermined path.
• Practical experience and curiosity can be more valuable than formal education in some creative fields.
• Building a strong foundation in various creative disciplines can enhance one's ability to lead and communicate effectively as a creative director.
• It's essential to find fulfillment in your work rather than simply following trends or niching down for the sake of it.

Creativity For Sale: How to start and grow a life-changing creative career and business by Radim Malinic - Out now.

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Rony Mikhael: [00:00:00] I tend to treat my life with an open hand. Like I don't hold things too [00:00:10] tightly. I started my studio. Whatever happens happens, I have goals, sure, but whatever happens happens, because I follow opportunity and I follow whatever kind of makes sense in the moment.

Rony Mikhael: I have my [00:00:20] principles that guide me and I stick to, and those are the things that I'm not going to compromise on, but it doesn't mean that I'm not open to Just seeing [00:00:30] where life takes me. 

Rony Mikhael: these principles and these things that are, Not going to change because they are true as to who I am and the more I live, the more truly I live, in light of [00:00:40] myself and the things that drive me and the motivations and the desires that I have are becoming more clear, right? .

Radim: Hello and welcome to Creativity for Sale [00:00:50] podcast, a show to help you start and grow your life changing creative career and business. My name is Radim Malinich and creativity changed my life. You see, I believe [00:01:00] creativity can change your life too. I even wrote a book about it and it inspired this podcast. I've set out to interview the world's most brilliant creatives, designers, [00:01:10] writers, musicians, makers and marketeers about their life changing experiences with creativity.

Radim: If you ever wanted to know how people go from their humble beginnings [00:01:20] to the pinnacle of their success, our conversation should provide you with an intimate look into triumphs, challenges and untold stories behind their creative endeavours. We [00:01:30] also discuss the highs and lows of creative careers and creative life.

Radim: So Thank you for joining me on this exploration of passion, creativity, innovation, and the boundless potential within us [00:01:40] all. Let creativity change your life. Are you ready? 

My guest today is a multifaceted entrepreneur and creative [00:01:50] force. From his roots in music to founding multiple companies, his journey has been driven by curiosity and pragmatic optimism. Now as a principal and creative director of Studio [00:02:00] Mind, he brings his wealth of experience to the world of branding and design.

 Let's explore the mind of this self described deep thinker and his unique approach to life and business. [00:02:10] It's my pleasure to introduce Ronnie Michael.

Radim Malinic: Ronnie, it's my great pleasure to have you on the show. How are you doing?

Rony Mikhael: I'm doing great. How are you, man?

Radim Malinic: I'm excited. [00:02:20] I'm glad that we can have this conversation actually recorded because you and I met at the RGD festival.

Radim Malinic: And it was one of those conversations that quickly led away from design [00:02:30] onto everything, regarding life, music. And I always say, you can't go anywhere far in the world without, if you've got passion for music, you always [00:02:40] find friends, you know, I think that's my sort of first thing.

Radim Malinic: But before we start, for those who have never heard of you, would you introduce yourself please?

Rony Mikhael: Yeah, for sure. My name is Ronnie [00:02:50] Michael, or Mikael, depending on how you want to say my last name. I don't really care. I am a creative director, designer, based out of Hamilton in Canada, just outside [00:03:00] Toronto.

Radim Malinic: And what sort of work do you do with your studio?

Rony Mikhael: primarily brand identity, design, brand strategy as well. And yeah, I've been running the studio for a few years now, previously [00:03:10] at, different agencies before that,and yeah, I was trained as a designer, came up through the ranks as you say, and, I started running my own thing because my wife wanted to go back to school and go back to [00:03:20] work after we had kids.

Rony Mikhael: And so she wanted to pursue her dreams. And so I left the cushy job and did this so I could essentially be a primary caregiver. [00:03:30] While she did all that stuff. So here we are now

Radim Malinic: Nothing scary at all. Why would you leave security and do something insecure? Because I think that's one of the things that you and I [00:03:40] have in common because I think, we've only met in person once, but we've had a lot of follow up conversations because we have a lot of in common and I think the first point, is that just like [00:03:50] myself, you are an alien, essentially.

Radim Malinic: Is that right?

Rony Mikhael: in so many ways. so many ways an alien. I immigrated here with my parents, when I was 15, So I'm definitely [00:04:00] not from here. and I was raised in Kuwait, which also I was not from there. My parents were not from there either. So it, people call it being a third culture kid.

Rony Mikhael: It's funny to [00:04:10] find there's actually a term for this thing where you're essentially raised outside of the culture of your own birth country or place and your parents as well. So my parents are [00:04:20] Egyptian, they moved to Kuwait for good opportunity, et cetera. And, and yeah, so when I was born in the States, so it's just a big jumble of things.

Rony Mikhael: but yeah, so I've always felt [00:04:30] outside. I've never really been, of my own place, so I just make home wherever. Whoever makes sense.

Radim Malinic: where do we even start on this story? I could choose what I was going to do because I moved to the UK [00:04:40] when I was 21, but you obviously, you followed your parents. It's you don't have a really a say when you're 15 where you're going to emigrate or emigrate. so born in the States, Q8, [00:04:50] then Canada.

Radim Malinic: Did you guys move straight to Ontario, or how did it happen? I'm quite curious about it because I think what's really important for me is that you didn't have a say [00:05:00] where you were going to go unless you did.

Rony Mikhael: No, it definitely didn't. my dad had a dream he literally had a dream and he was like, we're going to Canada. 

Rony Mikhael: the whole reason I was born in the [00:05:10] States. was so that we could get into the States. So I would have I'd be like an American and I would be able to, they're like, one day, you will bring us to America.

Rony Mikhael: It was like the idea. And we didn't end up [00:05:20] doing that. We ended up coming to Canada and yeah, we ended up in Toronto for a little bit. So in Ontario here. And then we moved to a little town outside of Toronto,

Rony Mikhael: [00:05:30] and Yeah, it was a few years of just hating it. Honestly, I came to this country and I, Kuwait is really affluent. They got a lot of [00:05:40] money, which means the technology is good. The cars are great. The fashion is, it's European. It's, and so we would go to UK a lot. My family,we'd visit cause my [00:05:50] dad had lived for almost a decade in London and my brother had lived in London.

Rony Mikhael: And so we had a very much a tie to the UK and so we'd go there a lot and that's all I knew [00:06:00] was that side of the world. And so coming to Canada, I was like, is this? Is this country poor? Which is stupid, but at the same time, it was like, I was looking at, my [00:06:10] Nokia phone was way more advanced than these people's Nokia phones.

Rony Mikhael: And I'd never heard of Honda Civic before, like we, we just are the cars that we had. We're just [00:06:20] so bougie and, cooler compared to what I had seen here as like your everyday standard, right? So there was a bit of a culture shock in the weirdest way possible because I [00:06:30] spoke English my whole life So that wasn't a thing, we had Western TV.

Rony Mikhael: So that wasn't a thing. But it was really more just like mindset and attitude [00:06:40] and lifestyle you come from hot country, you have a really different lifestyle than a cold country, so that alone will affect everything.

Radim Malinic: yeah, I think that must have been quite a shock. so [00:06:50] I'm fascinated. So your dad had a dream. You still haven't told me what that dream Was 

Rony Mikhael: I'm not sure what the dream was. It was 

Rony Mikhael: like, it was 

Rony Mikhael: God says, go to Canada. It was like, that was as basic as it [00:07:00] was, I never asked for details. 

Rony Mikhael: I was 

Rony Mikhael: like, I don't care for the street. 

Radim Malinic: especially when you're 15, a sort of, Combustive elements of like hormones and wanting and longing and [00:07:10] that kind of stuff. And obviously like you need to rebuild your life again, which is I find fascinating. to say it seemed potentially quite easy to do, but it's not like to rebuild [00:07:20] your social circle.

Radim Malinic: It takes a long time, but when was the breakthrough? when did you wake up and go, I'm all right. We're happy in Canada.

Rony Mikhael: Yeah. it was a few [00:07:30] years ago.so I'd say like early thirties or late twenties kind of thing. I'm only 36, 37 this year. and it was a few years ago. I remember specifically I was [00:07:40] on the highway, I was running past this huge Canada flag and I was kind of like,Yeah, I think I'm, I think I'm all right.

Rony Mikhael: I think I'm content. this is home now. I've got, I've got my wife who I love and,a [00:07:50] family here and a home here. And especially when I moved to Hamilton, I felt very much at home, which I had actually never felt at home living here until I moved [00:08:00] to Hamilton.it very much has a, just down to earth kind of vibe and some other people will have, different words to describe it than down to [00:08:10] earth.

Rony Mikhael: but it, it definitely resonates with me and my upbringing and just like the scrappiness of the people here, the strange optimism of a bunch of the people here who've [00:08:20] moved here and yeah, it's a great city. And so I've only recently felt like I'm at home. 

Radim Malinic: which is odd to be honest.

Radim Malinic: I thought you might say four or five years, but I wouldn't [00:08:30] expect you to say nearly 20 years, but I think that's a great testament to who you are and what you do. And to take that long time. it's perplexing. Like it's an admirable and perplexing at the same time, [00:08:40] because you could have left at 20 years old.

Radim Malinic: You can go, could have gone to America. You could have done other things, but where you, was it the ties with your parents? Or did you feel like obliged to [00:08:50] stay? Or did you feel it's going to get better? Or was it because you met your wife? Why? I'm curious.

Rony Mikhael: Yeah, I've been actually, I didn't, I haven't reflected on this from this perspective, but I have been [00:09:00] reflecting on this thought that I tend to treat my life with an open hand. Like I don't hold things too tightly. I started my studio. Whatever happens happens, [00:09:10] I have goals, sure, but whatever happens happens, because I follow opportunity and I follow whatever kind of makes sense in the moment.

Rony Mikhael: I have my principles that guide me and I stick to, and those are the things [00:09:20] that I'm not going to compromise on, but it doesn't mean that I'm not open to Just seeing where life takes me. And I think that's been a constant through [00:09:30] line in my life. we've talked about like the book I'm writing in the background, 

Rony Mikhael: That's really what it is that I have come from a bunch of different places. really know where I'm going. but the things that [00:09:40] guide me are, these principles and these things that are, Not going to change because they are true as to who I am and the more I live, the more truly I live, in light of [00:09:50] myself and the things that drive me and the motivations and the desires that I have are becoming more clear, right?

Rony Mikhael: As I go along, and I'm able to allow that to, [00:10:00] steer me in the right direction. So I just hold things with an open hand as opposed to clenching it and white knuckling my way through life just to make sure that, Oh, my [00:10:10] dream comes true and my vision for this thing is, you know what, those are great, but on my deathbed, am I going to be like, I didn't do that one massive thing with, [00:10:20] I'm not, cause I'm going to look at my life and say, okay, as a baseline, I took care of my family.

Rony Mikhael: I love them to bits, right? I, I did all these things [00:10:30] that I did good work and I met great people. I saw the world like I, I've already, I'm only 36. I've lived a full life. I feel like I'm retired, right? And so at this [00:10:40] point, that's why I'm always trying to make decisions from my deathbed as opposed to decisions based on the next thing that I want to accomplish this next big audacious goal, et [00:10:50] cetera.

Rony Mikhael: So when I think about my big goals, I'm like, well, in light of me, on my deathbed, is that going to sacrifice these principles, sacrifice these like massive things that are actually important to [00:11:00] me, just to get to that like next level, just to make that big dream happened. I don't know if 

Rony Mikhael: that makes sense, but that's how I think about it.

Radim Malinic: you have something that many people [00:11:10] search for and that's knowing you're enough, your baseline, so you are happy and content with what you've got. And it sounds like you had a crossroads, like there's [00:11:20] crossroads to, wherever you go to next, even though you don't know where you're heading next, in the words of David Bovee, I don't know where I'm going, but I promise it won't be boring.

Radim Malinic: And I think David's so thought [00:11:30] out. I mean, I would say young age, 

Radim Malinic: But it's the journey of discovery. And obviously like we talked about potential topic for this conversation is adaptability.

Radim Malinic: Like obviously [00:11:40] we, You find yourself without a support network. you had your parents with you and obviously by you were rebuilding again. it reminds me, there's a similar person,in that respect, it's Simon Sinek who talks [00:11:50] about, how he was a traveling child and he always had to make do and build his own resilience and build his own sort of network around him.

Radim Malinic: And when you look out, sometimes you're like, Oh, [00:12:00] I wished he was more like people like us had more of a sort of stable background, but on the other hand, the world offers you that option and who do you want to be? do you want to be [00:12:10] at 36, next door to know someone living in Hamilton going, I wish I had done something with my life or shit, this was scary, but I've given all of this a try.

Radim Malinic: So [00:12:20] I remember We chatted,pretty quickly about music because I'm a big fan of Canadian music and I always hold it up like I know a band called I Mother Earth, which I've been fond of [00:12:30] since 1997. that's my claim to fame. And you ever meet Canadians, they go, great dude, great. you're one of us.

Radim Malinic: And the other goes, I'm really sorry for you. But I know that [00:12:40] you got into bands fairly quickly after arriving in Canada and I really want to know how you started building that social group and the band and those sort of pursuits.

Rony Mikhael: you've [00:12:50] alluded to it, music is such an equalizer and you're coming to Canada, I had nothing and I was a musician kind of my whole life. I [00:13:00] got my first guitar when I was four. so I'd been playing for a long time. And when I got to meet people, it was essentially like me playing guitar before and [00:13:10] after school, just, I'd bring my guitar and I'd be in the, just the common areas.

Rony Mikhael: And I would just be playing songs and everybody would come up to me, not all at once, but you had the jocks would come up and be like, [00:13:20] can you play this song? and I'm like, yeah, I can play that song. and I had like just different groups of people, like different demographics completely coming up to me and asking me to play like anything from like a show's [00:13:30] theme song to, whatever Oasis, whichever I want to play it.

Rony Mikhael: and I could just, Be this chameleon, and be with people who are from different [00:13:40] backgrounds and who listen to different kinds of music but that goes back to what I was doing before that, which, we talked about this before, like we, we both were DJing, at one point in our lives so I've got, [00:13:50] different phases of music where I was like really heavy into hip hop, a little bit heavy into rap, really heavy into metal, really heavy into electronica.

Rony Mikhael: And I'm like, now I just listen to everything, right? Like my gym [00:14:00] playlist is all over the place because of that. But it was very much an equalizer because I could just be whoever I wanted to be at that moment. And it's not like I was a [00:14:10] different person, but those people perceived me as different.

Rony Mikhael: And so from there,a group of people who had a band, brought me in and started [00:14:20] jamming and then that evolved and evolved a whole bunch more. And eventually we ended up writing,recording a couple of records, hitting the road for a while. [00:14:30] And, we played a lot of shows.

Rony Mikhael: We practiced a lot and my whole life was just music. and then I came back from tour one day and I was just like, I think I'm ready for a [00:14:40] change. and I stopped pursuing music full time, which is both a good and a sad thing, I'd say.

Radim Malinic: Do you ever feel when you come to that crossroads of your life that you're like,maybe I should have stuck [00:14:50] with it for a bit longer. what was your decision? Was it the travel? Was it the people in a band? Because for example, I finished a band because I couldn't get on with the people anymore.

Radim Malinic: I was just [00:15:00] too much of a scatty brain. I just wanted to explore things. And I think quite famously, one of my friends from in a different band said you know what? We were in this death metal genre, death metal scene, it was all like, [00:15:10] extreme, extreme, extreme.

Radim Malinic: And it was almost like those people were like a caged in their mind and they're thinking like, no, we can't have any sort of type of influence and you can't be a crossover. You can't do this. Like [00:15:20] people were narrow minded and really angry. I'm like, oh, this is it. And the guy said well, I can't just eat cherries all my life, when I try something different, like, why would I just do this, 

Radim Malinic: and I was like, [00:15:30] through DJing, discovering everything that was good, mid 90s. I was a DJ, teenage DJ in mid 90s. can you imagine? 

Radim Malinic: as it's just, it's the most amazing thing. I did [00:15:40] enjoy making music with my friends because making that something new that makes you feel something straight away, vibrates your body.

Radim Malinic: I think despite some of my [00:15:50] memories, like making music was one of my most satisfying creative pursuits because it, you can't just, you can't replace that feeling. if someone's never been in a band, I don't know [00:16:00] what to, how would you describe it? Like it's. This incredible feeling,

Rony Mikhael: yeah, because you're working with little, if I'm making a collage, right? It's like I have actual materials. I have a magazine. [00:16:10] I've got scissors and paste and with music, you're just like, here's the thing. And there, I made a sound with it.

Rony Mikhael: I made a sound with the thing. And it basically, sound did not [00:16:20] exist. And so you are creating something like ex Nilo. It's out of nothing, you've just made a thing. And I think that's, what's magical about music, but to answer your question, was it the [00:16:30] guys in the band? Like what pushed me out of doing that?

Rony Mikhael: I would actually say just to their credit that,when I was in a band and it's funny that I'm in branding because identity [00:16:40] is so key to because I've had to, again, like chameleon my way around life a little bit. And so I think about identity at a really fundamental level.

Rony Mikhael: And I [00:16:50] remember for the longest time, I'd be like, Oh, man, we got to listen to like hardcore music because we were like a post hardcore band. So I'm going to listen to this kind of music. And I remember. We would have after our shows, we quite often [00:17:00] have a party at our, like our band house or our one of our bandmates.

Rony Mikhael: We would all just hang out there. And I remember him putting on Tribe Called Quest for the first time [00:17:10] and I was like, man, this is really good. And the vibe is awesome. I'm like, Are we allowed to do this? we're a post hardcore band. Are we allowed to play rap, or hip hop? [00:17:20] So that I would give to their credit.

Rony Mikhael: And they were very well rounded individuals, very much,respected all genres of music. It makes sense that I fell into that group, but [00:17:30] what brought me out of it was, I wanted a different kind of pace of life, I didn't want to be lugging gears all over the place and playing shows all the time, which I totally miss it because I [00:17:40] do have a high, being on stage.

Rony Mikhael: I'm just a different person. You can imagine me running around with my guitar, just moving all the time and screaming into the microphone. And so There's an [00:17:50] energy to it that I definitely miss. And certainly writing music again is this kind of like magical experience, which I'm getting back into actually.

Rony Mikhael: I've been recording some music as of late. so it's been great to get [00:18:00] back into it and just extend my creativity in a different way than I have been. Because my whole life is supposed to be creative, right? like I got into design because of music. I [00:18:10] was the one who was making all the t shirts and the CD art and flyers and posters.

Rony Mikhael: I've explored all these different avenues and now coming back to center and come back to one of my first loves, which [00:18:20] was music. it's actually been really neat rediscovering it.

Radim Malinic: I have to link back to something that you said about, being in the corner with a guitar and people coming back to you, saying can you play this?

Radim Malinic: Can you play that? [00:18:30] I remember when I moved to the UK and I had time to practice, I was like teaching myself jazz scales. So I was learning how to play literally Ronnie Jordan, which is like a jazz [00:18:40] guitarist and playing Miles Davis, so what and stuff. And you just imagine being at a party at three o'clock in the morning and just Can I borrow the guitar?

Radim Malinic: I start ripping like some jazz chords and like shredding. People are [00:18:50] like, who's that guy? What's going on here? And it's oh no. And then someone shows up from the crowds like, no, you don't play it like that. You play it like this. And you just started exploring like sevenths and nines and fifths and stuff.

Radim Malinic: [00:19:00] Like, all right. I think we got friends here. With the music, it's always that glue that it's almost like a sort of universal language and it's incredible how many sort of death metal fans I've ever found, in [00:19:10] any corner of the world. 

Rony Mikhael: like you said, your link into design was, the visual art, branding and that kind of stuff. Because how long did it sort of appeared to you, you know, sort of became [00:19:20] apparent that actually in that way we've been working in branding. in my case, since I was 15, unknowingly, it's only like in the last X amount of years that I put my actual name to it.

Radim Malinic: It's Oh, [00:19:30] I'm a branding designer. It was more about I'm doing the thing because the tribalism of music and the way the art's done and obviously like how we put things in a different pigeonholes, there's [00:19:40] a style of art for a really hardcore music and really sort of grind music.

Radim Malinic: I never thought about it like it's so ingrained because every band wants to sound different everyone wants to have different lyrics [00:19:50] everyone whereas when we come to the world of brands people go yeah we'll borrow a bit of this and a bit of that because you know that's a try it and test it so your road from music [00:20:00] into branding of and design and creativity How did I go?

Rony Mikhael: on a technical level, I've always been in it in some way,I, don't tell Adobe, but I had some [00:20:10] ripped versions back in the day,Photoshop and Illustrator 2, were my first CDs, that I installed, and I got that because my mom was in publishing, she [00:20:20] actually worked in publishing and, Like I used to visit her office and, her boss would give me these huge pieces of paper and he'd say, come back [00:20:30] next week with this full.

Rony Mikhael: Okay, so I would take it home and, I love writing. And so I would write basically detective stories, as if they were news stories. And [00:20:40] I basically would design a whole newspaper, like masthead images. Like I would draw all the images. And I was essentially like hand rendering a newspaper.

Rony Mikhael: Like I could [00:20:50] have words for that now, but like back then I was just like, Oh, it's got a little, it's got a name up here, like the daily, whatever. and so I would come back with this like fully rendered newspaper. And that's [00:21:00] how, you I just, I was just in it in some way or another since I was really young.

Rony Mikhael: and then, yeah, so getting into Photoshop and Illustrator and just messing around and pressing every [00:21:10] button and drop shadows on black text, which like, what are you doing with your life? at that point, and you're just making all the mistakes, all the design mistakes, at that point, which is cool nowadays, [00:21:20] cause we're, we just like to bastardize everything.

Rony Mikhael: but that's on a technical level and. I think what was really cool, it was like our first show as a [00:21:30] band, the venue we were playing, it was a small venue, it was our first show, the venue we were playing fit 400 kids, 600 came out, and I was like, [00:21:40] we didn't have a name to us, like we had a name, but nobody knew who we were, all we had were flyers, and we just posted these flyers everywhere, and it had a [00:21:50] question on it, I don't remember what the question was, But it was just this question and it was like intriguing enough for people to come out and check out the show and it was just [00:22:00] like bang on from day one and it was really cool to see that because it was just like,one of the guys at Pixar said it really well.

Rony Mikhael: His name is Andrew Stanton. He said it's the absence of [00:22:10] information that draws us in. I remember him speaking at like a TED Talk or something and he said that and it really stuck with me because that's what it was. we didn't give people like a, summary of like who we were as a band or like what kind of [00:22:20] music we were and what you could expect from the, it's no, it was nothing.

Rony Mikhael: It was just a question. Here's the date, here's the time, here's the venue, show up and figure it out. And so that, the [00:22:30] power of communication was really cool to see. I was like 15 or 16 at that point. And it was really moving, to see a lot of people come out. and I'm sure [00:22:40] friends told friends and stuff.

Rony Mikhael: It wasn't all because of the flyer. but to see the power of that was really neat. And yeah, I'm from there. It was just continuing to grow [00:22:50] and trying new things and getting ridiculed,at a shop here when we're trying to get our CDs pressed for the first time and they're ripping into me because it wasn't 300 DPI.

Rony Mikhael: It [00:23:00] was not CMYK. It wasn't this and that. And I was like,yeah. Oh, okay. oh, 300 deep. I'm writing it down, I'm sorry, the design gods are, upset with me. and I learned very much [00:23:10] the hard way to do that stuff. And that was all before I went to design school and learned all the things.

Rony Mikhael: And so I definitely got a good education just by doing. it's by [00:23:20] figuring it out and the idea that then like we can create something visual and people relate to it. People resonate with it. That's I think where the whole idea of brand [00:23:30] really started for me. we went to a show of this band called Taken Back Sunday, a big emo band back early 2000s.

Rony Mikhael: And it was a huge show at a really big venue year. [00:23:40] And it was right after a show that we had played, in some other small venue somewhere else. And I saw tons of people wearing the t [00:23:50] shirt I designed for our band. And it was like this typographic t shirt that was quite terrible typographically, but it was still cool.

Rony Mikhael: It was neat. And they're wearing my [00:24:00] t shirt, like hundreds of kids wearing my t shirt. And so that was really cool to see and to understand the power of like you said, tribalism, right? Like people coming around [00:24:10] something that they can relate to that they're interested in or that resonates with them in some way.

Rony Mikhael: that was really profound.

Radim Malinic: I think everyone's got their 300 DPI story, like the first time we find out, [00:24:20] I think everyone's got that one. RGB. So what do you mean RGB? And then crop marks? I'm not putting crop marks on my stuff, like it's perfect to the edge. And then you're just so [00:24:30] married to your idea until you say what do you mean?

Radim Malinic: you're going to chop off those three millimeters now, Whatever, what, whatever goes, but you're so pernickety about the detail. It's hilarious. [00:24:40] But as you said, that like learning, not even on the job, like learning on the task, on, on having fun, some designers go Oh, don't tell me you learn by play.

Radim Malinic: I'm like too fucking [00:24:50] right. Mainly by play. like this is where things don't matter because it's just like you can explore without actually worrying about what you might be doing wrong. Because when you focus in on [00:25:00] falling back. What are you doing?

Rony Mikhael: even then, I've lived by this kind of mantra I've had for a long time now, which is if I've never done something, it means that I don't know [00:25:10] that I can't do it, which is a really convoluted way of saying,Just try something because you don't know if you're gonna fail or succeed at it and really there is no fail or succeed You're just doing it.

[00:25:20] 

Rony Mikhael: my first internship out of college I was at this, hot little design studio and my boss was like we have an animation We got to do for this furniture company. They [00:25:30] make these designer chairs. Can you do an animation for it? That's like this happens, etc, etc. I was like, yeah, I'll do that.

Rony Mikhael: So I didn't say I can do that I wasn't gonna lie to the guy [00:25:40] But I said, I will. And so I remember I got tasked with that, like at the end of the day, and then the next day I'm, I'm showering in the first thing in the morning. And I remember just okay, in After Effects, I'm going to, okay, I'll [00:25:50] put a key frame here.

Rony Mikhael: I'll make this thing rotate that way. And so I'm like figuring it out. Like in my head, I'm not an animator, right? I'm figuring it out. And so I, I [00:26:00] thought through it, went in, did it somehow. And this was before everything had a YouTube tutorial and somehow made the video happen.

Rony Mikhael: I still [00:26:10] have it in a hard drive somewhere. And that for me is it's again, like a testament to this idea of. If you don't try, you never know. If you don't ask, you never know. If you don't just [00:26:20] take it, you never know, right? if, I might be the, a really great hockey player, but I would never know unless I actually pursue and do.

Radim Malinic: I think there should be literally a [00:26:30] poll of how many designers said how many times, Oh yeah, I'll do that without having absolutely no idea what the fuck they're doing, because I think when you look [00:26:40] back almost like pre YouTube, it's can you do it? Oh yes, of course I can. no one bothered with business strategy or branding strategy or like business development or positioning, [00:26:50] like I'm a designer.

Radim Malinic: There's work. I'm gonna do it. What is it? No idea. Can you do it? Definitely not. Will you do it? Definitely yes. like the number of [00:27:00] jobs that, we've all done, it's absolutely hilarious because there's even there was a guy who was once a president of the D& AD and he said they got paid like some [00:27:10] ridiculous money before the dot com boom.

Radim Malinic: What was that company that was trying to create? the online store or something with and Flash. They literally said, Oh, we need you to do this and it needs to be [00:27:20] done in Flash. He's okay, cool. And what he did, he went literally out of the meeting, into the shop, bought a copy of Flash and they started working it out.

Radim Malinic: that was the true [00:27:30] nature of design. now we find it easy because when you think about it, there's so much work that you can do. that it's actually easier to be, no, it's not easy. I have to be careful about the [00:27:40] word easier, but there's a potential to actually double down on your uniqueness that makes you someone to go to, because most of the work is no longer [00:27:50] average, like everything is improving.

Radim Malinic: Like the baseline. Of the tools, the features, what used to take you a week to work out is now a click of a button. And I keep repeating [00:28:00] this on this podcast, especially since I spoke to guys from Adobe and guys like Tony Harmer who like specialize in software development and teaching and coaching.

Radim Malinic: I think it's easier to actually, again, go [00:28:10] almost to the mindset of being a band, because as a band, you want to be your band. Whereas the mid flow of our design careers, we're like, [00:28:20] I'll do anything. And now you're like, you know what, actually I can do my honest sort of projection of my soul and what I can actually offer to the client and how we can improve things because you [00:28:30] no longer have to go and work stuff out.

Radim Malinic: Of course, everyone watches YouTube every now and then to work, I have to press what and what, but I think everything has been simplified so much. With your creative [00:28:40] work, congrats on having lots of kids wearing t shirts and, that stuff and figuring out a 300 DPI. which is always most embarrassing, isn't it?

Radim Malinic: it's then fun when you like, when the tables turn [00:28:50] and someone says, you're like, can you send me the logo in a vector format? And they send you JPEG in AI5, yes, you champion. Can we do it properly? you mentioned you went to design school. [00:29:00] is it after you stopped touring 

Radim Malinic: What did you do afterwards?

Rony Mikhael: before tour, I actually was, I went to college for photography and then I sold my darkroom so I could go on tour. so My [00:29:10] first round at college was pretty short lived. And then after I came back, I was like, okay, maybe I'll just, maybe I'll try this again.

Rony Mikhael: And funny enough, didn't know what I was going to go to school for, but I was like, I'm just gonna go to school for [00:29:20] something. And I got one of those, those like college catalogs they used to have back in the day. I don't know if they still have them 

Rony Mikhael: in print. basically was like, here's a [00:29:30] menu of all the courses we offer at this college kind of thing.

Rony Mikhael: And. I don't know what to do. And I was like, what's PR? That sounds interesting. We all do PR. And my parents were like, [00:29:40] PR, you and PR. And I was like, I actually don't know what it is. It just sounds cool. They're like, no, you're not a PR guy. Okay. Why don't you, why don't you do graphic design?

Rony Mikhael: And I was like, [00:29:50] what's graphic design? And they're like, like you've been doing it your whole life, basically,look at graphic design and maybe that's something. And I got in just [00:30:00] from my interview, like that. He was like, you're in. And it was the first time ever in my life. that I was an honor student, like the whole way through.

Rony Mikhael: my [00:30:10] teachers would always say like,he's a smart kid. He's just got to apply himself. And I realized when I went to college, I was like, it's not that I got to apply. It's I just have to be interested in the subject matter, really. And so [00:30:20] that was the first time I really worked hard, because I actually cared and I was like, I barely slept and it was like, I did an accelerated, version of the program, which went through the summer and it was just like three [00:30:30] years back to back.

Rony Mikhael: And it was a great experience. and I, wrecked myself,physically, it was like very demanding and I went above and beyond quite a bit, but it was [00:30:40] really, a formative experience because it taught me to channel. That energy into working hard on something that I'm actually passionate about.

Rony Mikhael: and it showed me that I was actually passionate about something [00:30:50] that, honestly, something that I could, it was commercially viable that I could actually make a living off of. so that was really key.

Radim Malinic: as a student, and students are not always renowned for actually being accountable, [00:31:00] delivering, wrecking themselves for the right reason, what was the drive? Was it because you were actually enjoying what you were doing? Was there a particular type of work that you were enjoying?it's [00:31:10] sometimes quite hard to pinpoint why we would wreck ourselves, obviously in a later life, obviously, that it comes with insecurities and, ego and ambition.

Radim Malinic: Obviously you go hard, but [00:31:20] to hear someone about another student, yes, especially as a design student, it's almost rare because you see one in hundred who stays for another year just to excel in what they want to do, because the others [00:31:30] were like, I suppose we're done now, I need to have fun and to offset things because I'm a big believer in. And zooming in and giving it all because you want to, it's like [00:31:40] mastering your guitar, like it's like mastering that instrument, it's like mastering your subject, like you want to put in the work so you don't have to look down your neck on your guitar going, there's an A somewhere, maybe that's a [00:31:50] C, that's what I think.

Radim Malinic: So what was your drive? Because I'm fascinated.

Rony Mikhael: I was really interested in it. I think that was the biggest thing for me is I was truly curious about it. I also don't [00:32:00] discount the fact that, my parents are scrappy themselves. And I come from, people who work hard and who just, you don't complain.

Rony Mikhael: they're optimistic and they [00:32:10] put their heads down and get to the work. And so I do have that about me.but I also like to challenge myself. I've realized more nowadays than I ever have that I'm [00:32:20] actually quite competitive, both With other people and with myself, like I compete against myself and it's funny, like realizing, even certain things like, when I was [00:32:30] younger and nowadays I have these like kind of OCD tendencies, like actual OCD tendencies and I haven't been diagnosed yet, but therapy is very clarifying for me.

Rony Mikhael: but [00:32:40] as a kid, I remember tons of kids do this where they don't step on the cracks on the pavement, as we're walking. I remember as a kid being like, why am I not stepping on the cracks? I remember being like, almost oh, I can't step on the [00:32:50] cracks.

Rony Mikhael: I just can't do it. And I remember as a kid being like, no, I'm not gonna let that make me walk all weird because I can't step him No, I'm just gonna so I intentionally started stepping on the [00:33:00] cracks and I know that's like a weird kind of analogy or Illustration but That was like the thing that I've carried with me my whole life is like this kind of idea of stepping on the cracks and just being [00:33:10] uncomfortable and getting out of my comfort zone and just like challenging myself to do something that, might be different than what is automatic, and something that just doesn't feel comfortable.

Rony Mikhael: Quite [00:33:20] right. And I'm trying to identify why doesn't it feel quite right. And is this like a, is there a different narrative here is there something that this is blocking me from, and so again, like stepping on cracks is like a small [00:33:30] thing, but it definitely has ripple effects, that kind of mentality.

Rony Mikhael: And I think a lot of it comes down to me just challenging myself to get out of my comfort zone, challenging myself to do something that [00:33:40] I don't feel a hundred percent confident in and committing to it. at it.

Radim Malinic: Would you say your story would Q8 [00:33:50] and never moved to Canada? Because sometimes it makes me think that. We have to grow up a little bit differently when, you change your surroundings, you're rebuilding your social [00:34:00] circle, you're rebuilding your environment. And it's quite well documented that when you've got an immigrant mindset, sometimes we just work twice as hard because A, a little bit less [00:34:10] distracted because you've got fewer things to do, occasionally.

Radim Malinic: But it's that drive. I think it's, I should sometimes have a list of people who've done really well as immigrants. [00:34:20] But. ready because I talk about it and I'm like, those people, no. so the immigrant mindset is it drives us forward. Honestly, there's some things like, is that sort of sense of insecurity?

Radim Malinic: obviously you don't have the fallback, you don't [00:34:30] have three generations of grandparents, behind you going, if it all falls apart, we've got your back, we are pretty much riding bareback, and trying to make things happen.

Radim Malinic: Would you say [00:34:40] that mostly you said your parents drive and scrappiness was something that inspired you? You also mentioned that your mom was in publishing. So it's almost like it was always [00:34:50] gonna happen, wasn't it?

Rony Mikhael: Yeah, in a way or not. even my dad was not in the creative arts, but he was a calligrapher, like an Arabic calligrapher. he did that just for fun or to help people out. And, but he worked [00:35:00] at the Japanese embassy. And so he would bring home a lot of stationery and I was very, Inspired by Japanese stationery, all carries through to today, like I show you on the camera, all the pens [00:35:10] that I, like to use from time to time.

Rony Mikhael: And that's all inspired by, by that. And so,yeah, they've inspired me in different ways. And again, mindset, in these practical [00:35:20] ways. but actually know you say that,I think a lot of also the drive, in college was once I found something that I was actually good at, I did want to prove that I was [00:35:30] like worthy, like I was good at something and that I wasn't just like a waste of space, because I did grow up with that being put on me You know, I was out amount to [00:35:40] nothing.

Rony Mikhael: I was very much talked down at quite a bit. and so to find something that I was actually good and better at than someone else [00:35:50] and a non designer or a designer, like I just, I felt like the need to prove myself, I think. And that's, I think there's always a bit of vanity in everything that we do.

Rony Mikhael: And I'd [00:36:00] say that's the vanity piece that kicked in probably, when I was in college. 

Radim Malinic: It's just like when we talked about writing music and having that feel of creating something and [00:36:10] then when you become designer, when you become creative visual, whatever you create as a creative, When you create your first piece of work or, the first set of [00:36:20] work, even though it's not going to be the pinnacle of your career, you're never going to go like, you know, the very first piece of work, it was the best, like obviously we've got our playground, but the [00:36:30] confidence that comes over us and just this feeling like, Hey, look, I'm making something out of nothing.

Radim Malinic: it can go almost from like,that naivety and insecurity into almost [00:36:40] like arrogance. You can, maybe we can come across Hey, I've just done this, and someone with experience can look at it like, you're only a kid with a ripped Photoshop on your laptop, like just, hold it back, but we[00:36:50] need that feeling and that drive and that feel, because if that wasn't for it, if it didn't have a pride in what we created, I don't think there'll be many creatives in the world.

Radim Malinic: I think there's something magical [00:37:00] because You're on your own, or you're like, if part of a small team and and you all of a sudden you have to actually grow up even more and actually start solving problems, which you're not at first [00:37:10] aware of, especially at first, because you're like, I want to do the thing every day, all day, every now and then from morning to evening.

Radim Malinic: And then people say, can you give us an invoice? What's that? [00:37:20] Can you do that? What's that? it needs to be 300 DPI. What's that? so what type of work did you do at the beginning, especially after school? So you,bomb through it. You did really well.

Radim Malinic: where'd you find [00:37:30] yourself on the other end of education?

Rony Mikhael: I did my internship and then, I had that firm and another firm kind of offer me a position. And [00:37:40] I said, no. And I ended up working in house somewhere. instead, which, I remember a few years after that, I was like, man, it was it. Was that just like career suicide?

Rony Mikhael: what did I just [00:37:50] do? why would I turn those gigs down? Because at the time, those were some pretty hot chops.but in that time, in house, I did everything. I was the entire media department, because [00:38:00] they didn't have one. And they actually, when I ended up leaving, three or four years They ended up hiring four people to take my role.

Rony Mikhael: but to their credit, like they didn't know, They, I was the first [00:38:10] foray into, a creative department. So in that role though, I was doing graphic design. I was doing web design. I was doing, stage design. I was doing, animation. I was [00:38:20] doing video. I was doing like everything, audio.

Rony Mikhael: So it, it gave me. Such a more robust vocabulary in the [00:38:30] creative space. I look at it now and I'm like, there's a reason why my role as a creative director made sense. It's because I can speak all these different languages. Like I can speak to a [00:38:40] developer and be like, I can call BS when they tell me, no, that's impossible.

Rony Mikhael: Or I can talk to an animator and understand, what it might take to, to produce one kind of [00:38:50] animation versus another and understand the complexity behind it. And all these different, modes of creativity and work that we create, I was able to understand very intimately. [00:39:00] and not just like,speak to it from a, outside perspective.

Rony Mikhael: And so that actually really gave me a lot of footing. and from there I ended up I don't want to call it getting poached, but getting poached by, [00:39:10] this guy who is now one of my, one of my really closest friends, who had a little studio, a little boutique studio, and we did some work together for about a year, and [00:39:20] that work essentially won a client who would pay my salary to get on, for the next few years after that, Again, and that was like lots of late nights, lots [00:39:30] of, listening to Nero and Skrillex and drinking wine into the night just to get work done.

Rony Mikhael: And it was, that was our, we were young and had all the energy in the world. and. That's [00:39:40] where I really,cut my teeth on the creative life and just doing anything and everything, all kinds of work, lots of production, lots of like video stuff, lots of design, like [00:39:50] design was like the easiest part of the whole thing, cause we were doing these kind of really more involved kinds of things.

Rony Mikhael: And it definitely gave me a good training ground.

Radim Malinic: I love the fact that, you, as you said, you [00:40:00] speak lots of languages, you speak lots of creative languages because there's nothing worse than being clued up, but nothing worse for people on the other side when you say, I need you to do this, I need this to be that, I need to rotate, I need to [00:40:10] be, I code it in this way, and they go It doesn't work that way.

Radim Malinic: no, it's here. This is how you do it. This is how that, they're like, why? And I think there's something quite magical when you, especially, I mean, [00:40:20] now, now it feels a bit harder, but we're talking about this sort of amazing sort of twilight period where you could be doing all of those things and no one would think Any other way,doing stage [00:40:30] design, animating, designing flyers with posters or whatever, like websites.

Radim Malinic: That's what we did. that sort of idea of nicheing, and I'm going back to the previous point. That didn't [00:40:40] exist. Like you might have a client's okay, we just only work with museums or theaters. there was some studios that did that, but everyone was [00:40:50] multifaceted workhorse.

Radim Malinic: I think that was the amazing fact, like you could do all of these weird things. And that was just accepted as normal. Whereas, I think we've got these things [00:41:00] more ring fenced and I just sometimes wonder, and I don't want to sound like a, you Was it a bit more exciting? did we have a bit more fun and did did that [00:41:10] unknown actually pushed us a bit further because now we got 20 year old kids being brand strategists and they post their reels on Instagram and this is the logo.

Radim Malinic: This is what I did. you [00:41:20] know what? This is all cool. I wish we were sort of that clued up and I'd be all showing everyone what we do, but we did the hardcore work, You were building yourself as a sort of [00:41:30] Swiss knife with all sorts of different ways of solving problems.

Radim Malinic: Whereas now we've got what are you going to do if your brand strategies are 20 years old? Where are you going next? cause I feel [00:41:40] like our weird period I think helped us to really grow up to be, you know, fun.

Rony Mikhael: A hundred percent. So I do a ton of brand strategy work and it's all informed [00:41:50] by years of doing it in different ways and with different kinds of people and like it being ingrained as part of a greater kind of whole, a bigger picture [00:42:00] of, execution that going to design or we're going to produce or whatever.

Rony Mikhael: And, I have a process, like I have a very specific process that take, into a brand strategy [00:42:10] exercise, andIt's all because of the work that was done over the past 11 to 15 years, right? Like somewhere in there, the process had been honed and honed and honed, and [00:42:20] it's not because I went to school for strategy or it's not because I, there was, again, there wasn't like a YouTube guru who is here's how you do brand strategy.

Rony Mikhael: It's great to have these resources and it's funny [00:42:30] like I'll, I will, like I'll pay and I'll buy some of these resources and just see what everybody else is doing and I'm like, Oh, okay, like this isn't more than what I've, what I thought, it's actually [00:42:40] either on par or a bit more diluted. But it's nothing that's like groundbreaking because, and again, it's not to say that I know everything, but it's [00:42:50] to say that I went through the ringer and we've explored a whole bunch of different avenues and ways of doing this kind of work and seeing what works and seeing what doesn't work and [00:43:00] seeing how things should evolve and what things should stay evergreen.

Rony Mikhael: And that's helped to kind of build that foundation for me. And so yeah, when I think about niching down, I niche down in [00:43:10] that I do brand strategy, brand identity and design. And then I crave direct everything else, right? I have photographers, bring them in. I got video people, bring them in.

Rony Mikhael: I got animators, bring them [00:43:20] in. That's as niche as I want to be. and I don't think there's a way to go about it. I think some people will say, here's how you do it. And here's how you get more leads is if you niche down. Some people say, here's how [00:43:30] you'll do it. Get more leads is if you be a generalist.

Rony Mikhael: And I think that You do what you got to do, throw some spaghetti at the wall, see what sticks, get on with your life, [00:43:40] because something that works for that person doesn't necessarily mean it's going to work for you. It's because we tend to, we tend to come from different places, we tend to take different roads and we tend to [00:43:50] live our lives a certain way that will dictate how we actually continue to move into the next chapter.

Rony Mikhael: So we can't just assume what works for them is going to work for us.

Radim Malinic: I [00:44:00] think just like with the music and I'm going to be keeping drawing as part of us because with music, you've got expression of your soul, You can't make yourself be in a band you don't really want to be in, unless you [00:44:10] are, a higher bass player for Slipknot that earns you a million dollars a month.

Radim Malinic: to be in a band with people who don't like doing things you don't want to do, it's a bit like you find yourself being a creative for people you don't want to [00:44:20] work with on the things. 

Radim Malinic: So I was thinking about my early niching. I was actually, I had a niche. I didn't even know about it. And my niche [00:44:30] was actually working with the music industry.

Radim Malinic: So I was working obviously at the flyers and posters and record labels. That was my way in. Like I didn't even know I was. Nishin, that's [00:44:40] where I just built my foundation. And then it's grown from there and you get seen and, seen and contacted by other people outside of actually, you create your name within the space.

Radim Malinic: Whereas it almost seems [00:44:50] like, how do you even start at this? 

Radim Malinic: what is it that you really want? What is it that you want to do? And actually what makes you happy? Because I wonder how many, Brand [00:45:00] strategists and logo designers that would be rather happy to win, something completely different, but it just, it's easy to jump on a bandwagon and try to be accepted that [00:45:10] way.

Rony Mikhael: Yeah. And I do wonder about that same thing, you know, is this working? I kind of want to like talk to these people who are like extreme niches and ask, Is it working for [00:45:20] from a fulfillment perspective, if I think about, again, I'm trying to make decisions for my deathbed, right?

Rony Mikhael: So if I think about, whatever age I am at, hopefully, it's natural death. [00:45:30] but when I think about that time, am I looking back thinking, man, I'm really glad I niched down and that actually, because it could, I'm not saying it's can't, but like that really afforded me these great [00:45:40] experiences, 

Rony Mikhael: or did it just stifle my creativity, or will that actually be something that, I don't look too fondly, at because I really did want to try all these different [00:45:50] things, but I never did, like I, I struggle with it myself, but I think some people are wired to niche and that's okay.

Rony Mikhael: and some people are told to niche. and they'll try it and see [00:46:00] how that goes and see if it's for them.

Radim Malinic: I had Chris Dubb on the show and obviously he's very much believing that, if you do something remarkable, people will find you. but it's a [00:46:10] tricky I mean, we'll, we'll leave that subject,because I mean, to sort of decipher niching, I think we need to be, uh, a bit of a glowing, halo behind our heads thinking, you know, but more than anybody else, but [00:46:20] with the creative careers, what I've learned from this podcast, everything that we've done, we're almost like on this hero's journey, like we try to think no, should I have done this?

Radim Malinic: And should I [00:46:30] have done that? And should I have changed my course or whatever? And sometimes you can find yourself like, Oh, maybe I wish actually I did something completely different.today I'm content. I'm happy. [00:46:40] I live in a house I wanted to live. I've got family I wanted to have, everything is exactly how I want it.

Radim Malinic: So it's I think the pragmatically, when you look at your current results, you're like, Every journey is [00:46:50] bumpy, like you don't see. The reason why we've got all sorts of, stories and movies and, because it's meant to, it's meant to be challenged, like we get to seduce by the idea that things should be easy and [00:47:00] slot in and everything's going to be fine.

Radim Malinic: like what influencers would let us believe, you know, like I had a coffee and then I had a croissant and then I did this and I touched type for five minutes and then I just did this. of course [00:47:10] everybody hurts, everybody breaks, So I think. What you're describing, I think what I've learned from the show is like being content with every stepping stone [00:47:20] is,it's what you can afford yourself as one of the sort of life's luxuries because you're like, you know what, right now it feels good.

Radim Malinic: I think that's

Rony Mikhael: Yeah. And you think about [00:47:30] those influencers who tell you, here's a day in the life of this influencer. And that's like today's version of what I think, coming from an immigrant family, what a lot of us would be like, our [00:47:40] parents would've said, here's what you're gonna do. You're gonna go to school and you're gonna get good grades, and then you're gonna go become a doctor or a lawyer or an accountant or whatever, 

Rony Mikhael: marry this person and then you're gonna have kids and you're gonna make us some grandkids. Like [00:47:50] it was the same thing. You had this clean cut narrative of what your life should look like. And, people like yourself and me, like we, we just don't have that kind of life.

Rony Mikhael: [00:48:00] don't have the luxury of it because we're too damn curious, right? And we're just, we're a bit more unruly and that's okay, right? And again, it's that what gets somebody [00:48:10] somewhere is not going to get us in this to the same place for that reason. And so it's very much is, yeah.

Rony Mikhael: your own journey. if I hadn't just opened again my hand, like I said in the beginning [00:48:20] to opportunities and to wherever life would take me, a man, I wouldn't have been in some of the rooms. I've been in, it blows my mind. Some of the places I've been to, and I'm not going to come back.

Rony Mikhael: I'm not going to like name [00:48:30] drop and tell you all the different things that I've been able to experience, but I can't believe where life's taken me as like a designer and as a creative director [00:48:40] and just the guy who's trying to make a life out of creativity. I can't believe it. I don't think it would have happened.

Rony Mikhael: What wouldn't have happened in the way that it happened had I been [00:48:50] closed fist about my career and my trajectory and what I thought needed should happen, 

Radim Malinic: a fantastic summary of what you've done so far, of your life, of your creativity. we've pretty [00:49:00] much only covered, a stolen, Illustrator 2, and, and a couple of design bits, but I wanted to have you on the show to talk about the story, because I've enjoyed obviously hearing about it [00:49:10] firsthand, and I wanted to have this on record, because I've done many talks in various places, and.

Radim Malinic: there's questions about like, how do you go around or [00:49:20] how do you go about the fact that honestly,you're an alien in a different country trying to make a career because I'm just as lucky that, I've got all this sort of strange name, but I cannot blend in with the environment.

Radim Malinic: It was like, [00:49:30] sometimes, there's, adversity and that kind of stuff. And it just, it, it can take a lot to actually rebuild your career in another place and obviously, or your life and it's due to where you described the way things [00:49:40] happen, it's head down, knuckle it down, do the work, enjoy it, explore it and, be in a place 20 odd years later going, you know what, it's making sense.

Rony Mikhael: Let's see [00:49:50] what happens next. So thanks very much for coming on the show. Yeah, it's been really fun. And yeah, I'm excited to see what happens next. hey, maybe I'll be a bassist and slipknot making millions of dollars a month. [00:50:00] That would be great.

Radim Malinic: when that happens, let's have you on the show again.

Rony Mikhael: mask

Radim Malinic: Good Thanks very much. Nice 

Radim Malinic: one. 

Rony Mikhael: of course. It's great. [00:50:10] 

Radim Malinic: Thank you for listening to this episode of Creativity for Sale podcast. The show was produced and presented by me, Radim Malinic. Editing and audio [00:50:20] production was masterfully done by 

Radim Malinic: Neil mackay,. from 7 million Bikes Podcasts, 

Radim Malinic: Theme music was written and produced by Robert Summerfield. If you enjoyed this episode and would like to [00:50:30] support the podcast, please subscribe and leave a rating or review.

Radim Malinic: To get your own action plan on how to start and grow a life changing creative business. You can get a copy of the Creativity for [00:50:40] Sale book via the links in show notes. burning, and until next time, I'm Radim Malinich, your guide through this exploration of passion, [00:50:50] creativity, innovation, and the boundless potential within us all. [00:51:00]