"I use the 'we' because I feel like collaboration on projects is how you get to the end goal."
In this episode, we dive deep into the career of illustrator and animation director Dan Woodger. From his breakthrough emoji project to his current approach to social media, Dan shares insights on navigating the ever-changing landscape of illustration. He discusses the challenges of maintaining a signature style while evolving creatively, the importance of work-life balance, and his journey from static illustrations to animation. Dan also offers valuable perspectives on collaboration, client relationships, and staying true to one's artistic vision in the face of industry pressures.
Key Takeaways:
Mindful Creative: How to understand and deal with the highs and lows of creative life, career and business
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Radim Malinic: [00:01:50] My guest today is an illustrator and animation director living and working in London. He creates colourful, playful, character based work designed to brighten your day and to make you [00:02:00] smile. His work is inspired by a childhood diet of 90s cartoons and his work is an invitation to never grow up and to always find humour in the stupid world around us.
It's my [00:02:10] pleasure to introduce Dan Woodger.
Hello, Dan. It's very, very nice to have you on my show. Good morning. How are you doing?
Dan Woodger: Yeah, I'm good. Thanks, man. Nice to [00:02:20] be, chatting with you too. yeah, I'm good. can't complain. How about you?
Radim Malinic: Well, I'm very good. I mean, I'm sure you are much happier not having me in your studio, killing [00:02:30] cactuses. Cacti, shall I say? because for the record, I have to say that you and I used to share a studio. Well, you still got a studio, but I had to move out for various,location reasons. [00:02:40]
But, yeah, I wanted, I was looking forward to have this conversation with you because yes, we used to share a space for the last, well, four, four and a half years with various stories and, [00:02:50] escapades in Kingston.
And, I kind of miss it. I miss, I miss the space and I miss, the banter.
Dan Woodger: me too, man. And, but it was funny that I finally got my shit together [00:03:00] to actually sort the space out and make it, nice once she left.
Radim Malinic: That's what I was thinking.
Dan Woodger: Yeah, it's, I absolutely love that space. it did [00:03:10] get, it's sort of one of those, it was like a mishmash of lots of different people's stuff. So it was good from when you've gone, get it looking nice and tidy, but hopefully there's a floating desk there.
So if you [00:03:20] ever, ever need a space to get away from the house and get your head down, doors always open .
Radim Malinic: Thank you. I think the main paradox is that we both wanted to start a podcast [00:03:30] in the old setup, thinking like, Oh, how rubbish is the background only for me to start a podcast, which is audio only. It doesn't matter what background you have, [00:03:40] but, yeah, I know your space. I mean, you did an amazing job on it, but, I want to talk to you about your career and how we can inspire sort of emerging illustrators, or even just reinvigorate illustrators [00:03:50] in the industry right now, because we're recording in a year, which is following the year that's already been tough, so we've been recording this in 2024 and [00:04:00] things are not rosy as they used to be.
Things are harder. And that's why I wanted to get you on the show because you seem to be kind of going against the trend because We've tweaked your [00:04:10] career and we've tweaked your life in a certain way that you've got time for the work and doing stuff. So I want to talk about the fact that if you're an emerging illustrator and you see someone like yourself who's clearly [00:04:20] got a career, when does the big break come?
Like does it, is there a sort of noticeable break? Do you feel like things are going strong or like, no, because you never really feel like [00:04:30] there's a break and we just keep carrying on. But to some people you seem to arrive. So if you can tell us about your story, your, you know, your career, your progression,
Dan Woodger: I'll try and keep it [00:04:40] concise. It's, Like I think most creative careers, it's, full of cliched ups and downs and full of a huge amount of luck. I [00:04:50] do, I try to say that felt like I always had about 30%, I'm about 30 percent talent and 70%. hard work. And so I've really made that bit of talent, [00:05:00] like work for myself, by putting in the hours and trying to push, squeeze as much out of it as possible.
so I don't believe that there's just an element of luck there. There is hard work that goes behind it too, [00:05:10] but sometimes catching those little breaks, definitely helps push things along. So in terms of like my breaks, I left university, I got, [00:05:20] my first job was interning for a company called YCN, who aren't around anymore, so it kind ofimmediately makes my offer to students to help redundant, because this was like 10 years [00:05:30] ago, 15 years ago, and the kind of experiences aren't the same.
But hopefully the anecdote is the same where it just was a weird sort of lucky right place, right time and shoot my shot. [00:05:40] I applied to intern, got there and they had a lot of illustration roster there. I weirdly fit in a gap, the style I was doing weirdly fit in a gap that they had. and then after [00:05:50] busting my ass doing everything, I was the keen eager beaver making coffees, like doing whatever they asked of me, making myself super useful and hopefully memorable [00:06:00] at the end of that two weeks.
I had, I was like, sorry, two months, I was aiming to have a chat with the agent to see if, there was space for me, and luckily there was, and then that was my [00:06:10] first break, the next series of breaks were, like, getting the odd job here or there, and then just really trying to run with it, even if it would be quiet, taking any opportunity and making [00:06:20] stink about it, trying to, showcase it, showing background behind the scenes, just, taking as much of, what might be a small project and just making a big song and dance about it to get it like seen and recognized and noticed and [00:06:30] then another cliche is a bit like a kind of snowball effect then these kind of things breed more things and it's gone from there really.
Radim Malinic: I remember around that [00:06:40] time you worked on a project which made you put a stone in weight.I mean, we all have those projects that just somehow feel like you're pushing. I mean, maybe not [00:06:50] at that time, but because you, because you, when you're excited about working on something new and potentially it can change your career, you don't really mind how long it takes, because you can famously say that [00:07:00] creativity nearly killed me because I was so, so, so into it.
And I'm so, so dedicated. But I believe the project that you've created that made you kind of sit at your desk [00:07:10] for, you know, six weeks or whatever that was, kind of changed your life, right? Changed your career.
Dan Woodger: Yeah it's definitely uhkind of key like cornerstone [00:07:20] like or like whenever I do a talk I have to put that in because it is like a kind of fundamental aspect of the story of my like, kind of career so far. Quick bit of [00:07:30] context. It was for, this project came in for a social media company called Line.
They're really popular in Asia. It's like kind of WhatsApp and Google and Instagram and stuff all rolled into one. [00:07:40] And they were creating an emoji library and they were commissioning 10 artists each to create a thousand emojis. but they wanted it in 10 weeks. so [00:07:50] I being like really green, they, they offered, they set the budget.
was, I think it was like 25, maybe 30, 000 us dollars. [00:08:00] And I'd never seen that many zeros on a budget before. and so I had maybe, I was maybe like two years into my career at this point and that would just meant everything. It meant like [00:08:10] rent was covered for liketwo years. so I was like, I want that.
I want that money. If it's 10 weeks, fine. So yeah, sat at my desk. and [00:08:20] I don't know, like I just, It was that combination of being incredibly keen, inexperienced, and not understanding my limits, [00:08:30] and It's a really weird one because this is very much like a fine scale. The work was too much. I worked too hard.
I did not look after myself. My relationship suffered, [00:08:40] like my mental health suffered in hindsight. the project was really successful because I was the first artist to finish because I was the only one dumb enough to say 10 weeks was [00:08:50] fine.and then from that, me finishing first gave me the space on my own to be able to shout about the project.
And then this weird element of luck again. I did this project just at a time where [00:09:00] brands were starting to use 2014. So it's like the brands were just starting to use emoji and advertising campaigns. And because I finished emoji project right at the right [00:09:10] time, it's nice that they did a feature about it.
And then if you, during that time, if you Googled emoji designer, weirdly, I came up in like the top, top, like page. So,I [00:09:20] got all this, like for the next two years, I got all these emoji projects come in that sort of set the foundation for like practice, like brought in lots of money for the business, but [00:09:30] also like how it helped establish me as a freelancing illustrator.
So it's really strange. I don't know what the kind of, the right advice is here. I work too hard and I would never work that hard [00:09:40] again, but like it
can be the
right platform.
Radim Malinic: I've got, a few questions about this project because I think when you're young and keen and naive and slightly, well, and [00:09:50] inexperienced, I think that's kind of like a really good. If you, yeah, if you've got the right discipline, I think that's a really good equation for actually making things happen, actually opening up, opening the first door, because I want to actually [00:10:00] unpick this project a little bit, because how do you go with the overwhelm?
Okay, so you've two years in your career and you've got thousand emojis to do. How much support [00:10:10] did you get from the client? How much planning did you have to do? I mean, we are all not ready for work like this or like, not like, If we were to do it now, 10 years later, we'd be like, okay, we've [00:10:20] got strategic planning.
We can obviously, we can have some sort of, you know, software, like collaboration software. We can make these things a lot easier. Whereas [00:10:30] 2014, of course, we were all tooled up with beautiful tools, but not We didn't know that much about collaboration as we do now. So let's unpick it like from, from the, from the mechanics, [00:10:40] like how overwhelmed where you were, because obviously you've given us quite a few hints.
It's just like, you can't make 10 of 10, not 10 [00:10:50] weeks without, you know, breaking sweat on it. I've said it to several people. So let's talk about overrun workload. Like how did you find it as a sort of fairly new illustrator [00:11:00] to work with a client and Did you justify the money in the end?
I mean, of course, like, you know, it's made your career, but like, you know, so let's talk about the workload the management.
Dan Woodger: [00:11:10] Yeah. It's gives me anxiety thinking about it. Because it was ramshackle, like it was not done in any sort of strategy except trying to aim to deliver a [00:11:20] hundred emojis a week was my quota almost. each a hundred emojis was on a theme. So there was like the strategy each week was [00:11:30] be given the theme like seaside.
the client would give me 70 prompts and then I had to come up with the last 30. and then. There really wasn't like [00:11:40] time for feedback really, it was like almost straight into designing them. So I was just, I think from their point of view, they just wanted them as quick as possible.
And so there [00:11:50] wasn't like a lot of refinement, I would design. I would send them over, God, I'm trying to remember exactly how it went, but basically I would send them over and then I was [00:12:00] using the app line, which is, so I was dealing with the art director who was based in, LA, strangely. So it was like a huge time difference.
And then [00:12:10] I would send the work over before bed. I was working 6am, 6. 30 till like midnight every day, like stupid hours. And then I would send the stuff over, put my head [00:12:20] down, but because I'm so wired and I'm like a super green, like not really understanding client related, like relationships, I would then start getting messages online at [00:12:30] like three, four in the morning, respond to giving me feedback.
And now I would just not look at those into the morning, but like at that time I was like, what they said. So I pull my phone up at 4am. [00:12:40] I'd respond it's just such a terrible way to work on a project. and then, don't really know how to end the anecdote except that that's how we worked for 10 weeks and then we delivered on 10 [00:12:50] weeks and itwas done.
but it was, the weird thing was like the fatigue that set in about like three, four weeks in and just I watched the season pass from my window. I was in a little [00:13:00] one bed flat and I just sat at my desk and watched it go from winter to spring outside. Like I might, I had an enormous like growth on my like kind of my middle finger from [00:13:10] where I was resting my pen for all that time a day.
it was intense. And I don't know, like my strategy now, if I was going to say like what it would be like [00:13:20] now would be to work completely differently to that. that's not sustainable way to work. and also the tools would be different. Like we wouldn't use a social messaging channel to like.
[00:13:30] discuss feedback.the deadline would be much wider. Like I would first off say 10 weeks is impossible. I have a child now as well. So that also could practice in, but 10 weeks is impossible. It was [00:13:40] impossible then it shouldn't have done it. It shouldn't have been that quick.and then there would have been much more structure.
Like it would have been like, rather than designing a hundred in a week, it'd be like, I don't know, maybe 30 per week. And [00:13:50] then we have like rounds of feedback and I don't know, just stagger it more. So it's more sustainable, not trying to. Blow it all out in 10 weeks.
Radim Malinic: I think you're a hero [00:14:00] for actually pulling it off because I think it's that youthful enthusiasm that makes you do it. Because I remember working on ad campaigns over Christmas. And if you give an ad director your phone number and say, you can call me anytime [00:14:10] because you're really keen, they call you anytime. So I remember that you're working through Christmas, like on Christmas day, just like, yeah, can you give me some more changes? I'm like, yeah, sure. I mean, it's my first ad job. Of [00:14:20] course. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I don't have a problem. Like three o'clock in the morning, like, and then we're based in London.
Like, okay. Yeah. Just call me anytime because I was just so keen. But of course, like now it's like [00:14:30] my phone just goes off, like, you know, literally in the back pocket. Like, I don't, I don't, I don't want to see or hear about anyone because, you know, we should have more respect. And I think there's, [00:14:40] there's a lot to be said about how much we potentially have come through. Understanding how we should look at, I mean, of course, there's still the exceptions that prove the rule, but it seems [00:14:50] different these days. It seems at least like we're trying to do a little bit more of us looking after our mental health and have some more realistic planning because I had various people on the show already and [00:15:00] things are changing for better, but sometimes there's a situation where you just need to jump in into deep end and go like, okay, well, we're going to spend three weeks of just bashing things out, like just seeing what's going to happen [00:15:10] and then come Pretty tired. And I'm pretty impressed that no three weeks in you're already working on fatigue. And I think you were lucky that you were going from winter to spring because if you were going from [00:15:20] like summer to autumn or winter, that would be like proper, proper bad. So I'm glad that you managed to pull through it.
Dan Woodger: it's weird to think a bit in [00:15:30] hindsight, 'cause it's been a long, there's 10 years since that project this year. probably about now is when we started. yeah,it's, I have strange feelings that I definitely, you know, when you, have enough distance from [00:15:40] something, you can much easier to like p it like out there the main emotions from it. And it's still a mixed bag. The project was hugely successful and it really was like an important part of my career, [00:15:50] but it also was a huge like kind of learning curve for me in terms of project management. So yeah, I don't still have like weird mixed feelings about it.
Radim Malinic: [00:16:00] What is, obviously I know you personally, obviously what you're describing from, from this project is something that I would use. There's one word to describe it and you've got great discipline. Like you're someone who. You [00:16:10] know, sits down, does the work, you know, you, you, you plan your time and you discipline in other aspects of your life.
And we'll talk about it in a second, which sometimes I don't, I [00:16:20] can't speak for everyone, but it's when you obsessive or when you really dedicate it, you've got to find the discipline. Because when I get asked, like, what's the best time management [00:16:30] app, it's like, You, you, like if you, if you don't have the discipline, no apps on phone or your screen or whatever on your, on your desk is going to ever help you because like, you have to put in the hours [00:16:40] or you have to be like, okay, now we close.
We're going to carry on tomorrow or we do things differently. So yeah, your, your dedication and discipline, I think is, I think one of the key [00:16:50] ingredients because you've already like showing, I mean, who finishes thousands of emojis before, like on, on time, I mean, of course, like. Do we want, like, do we all have to, [00:17:00] like, once in our life, put in an effort that makes that breakthrough?
Because as you said, like that project changed your life, obviously it got you a ton of work, obviously got you seen. And I know [00:17:10] that that was kind of one of the reasons why, for example, one of your main markets is actually Asia now, because you, you create work for there because that's how it was, how the seed was planted.
And that's what you sort of reap [00:17:20] now from there. So, with the work. Going on from there onwards, obviously a thousand emojis was done. Don't have to do that [00:17:30] again. how did you find this sort of progress? Because I know, you're one of the people that I know that has actually got a dream client list and works on it. Because everyone talks about, Oh, I would like [00:17:40] to work for this company and that company. And they're like, is it even written down? It's like, no, no, it's in my head. Whereas you do it. So. How do you structure your career? How do you structure your, [00:17:50] progression or roadmap to, achieve the things that you want to achieve?
Dan Woodger: Yeah, I do write down, yeah, my kind of goals. [00:18:00] and I was actually weirdly looking back yesterday. I was looking for something on my hard drive and found one from 2019 and I've like achieved quite a few of them, which is it's just super cool. [00:18:10] I hadn't looked at that one for a while, but since then one of them was to direct a TV commercial.
one of them was to like do some speaking events, which I've spoken at. [00:18:20] And like, it was like, it's cool to see, I don't know, sometimes that doesn't happen within a year, but like to look back to four or five years ago and say, Oh, those things are done. and actually a while ago is that kind of feels really, [00:18:30] what's the word?
Kind of. I know sometimes you just take stock and appreciate that actually you've come, quite a long way. In terms of like, how going about it, I think the [00:18:40] best example I can use is,I, wanted to do more animation work and I had this weird turning point after that emoji kind of [00:18:50] hype died down inevitably I never saw myself as an emoji designer that wasn't like what I was an illustrator that was just a weird facet that happened and popped up as an opportunity but after [00:19:00] that kind of died down and the clients stopped looking for so much emoji work other companies took my spot on the google first page I had like a little bit of a quieter [00:19:10] spell and I was like able to take stock about what I want to do next.
And that's where animation came in. And so in order to like structure and pivot my work towards that, I knew I needed to show people that I do it. You can't just [00:19:20] ask for animation work and hope that it comes in. so I would take editorial jobs and again, this is a bit of luck and timing. this was just at the point where magazines and [00:19:30] newspapers were obviously putting out content on social media and they need.
I saw an opportunity to have animated GIFs of the work I was doing. And so I would offer art [00:19:40] directors, Oh, by the way, I could do this as an animated GIF if you like. And I wasn't expecting any money from it, to be honest. At the beginning, I was just using it as experience to like practice on the go. And [00:19:50] then quite often they would come back and say, Oh, we can give you an extra bit of budget for that too.
So that was an added bonus. I wasn't very good, but I would like, I was like, just trying things out and haven't [00:20:00] getting paid for it. And then I would post those out and just get better at it and keep practicing. And eventually then started to get like little social media [00:20:10] jobs for like,I did one for Netflix.
It was like a certain like animated social campaign and then it just again, like snowball effect, like work that gets work. And, [00:20:20] I, I feel like that was like a really, step by step way of how I got there with this. So that, that I can actually show rather than like how I really got into the industry.
That one I know worked, like taking that [00:20:30] approach. And yeah, then I went on to do quite a few little animation jobs the last few years, definitely during the pandemic. I did a TV commercial for Lifebuoy and Ident for [00:20:40] MTV and stuff like that. And yeah, now actually. advertise myself as an animation director.
So,it feels like a good spot to be in.
Radim Malinic: do you feel that the addition of the animation into [00:20:50] your sort of toolkit has actually helped you to grow your career? Maybe a bit faster than if you were just a traditional 2D flat sort of image illustrator because it gives you a bigger [00:21:00] scope of what you can do, what you can achieve.
But did you even think like at the beginning of like, I could be doing this because yeah, you've quite rightfully taken time to actually assess what you can do. [00:21:10] Which is the golden time, like if, because sometimes we dread or like, Oh, there's a quiet spell. what, what, what am I doing? Whereas I haven't got enough clients.
Whereas actually having the time to actually hear [00:21:20] yourself and actually, what do I really want to do? It's kind of almost like a projection or like, okay, I really want to do this. with the animation, did you ever think that would be the thing? Like, That, that would become one of your, pieces [00:21:30] of armory.
Dan Woodger: I think like I'd always been, interested in it. I, I grew up like with, all those like Nickelodeon shows in the nineties and the Simpsons and things like that. So it was always the thing that got [00:21:40] me into illustration. I then studied illustration. And that was like kind of the first thing I wanted to get established in is like 2D, static illustration, [00:21:50] but I always had in the background that, a kind of eye for it, like I knew how I'd want my characters to move and, it definitely felt like the, it was going to come at some [00:22:00] point.
that period there where I was like, there was a sort of perfect opportunity to start investing in it. I'd established myself enough as an illustrator and then I felt like there was limitations now on [00:22:10] what I could do because I was only an illustrator. And I also saw it from a, it's weird cause you, I say it like I'm like got some business master plan or something.
I don't [00:22:20] really, you are figuring out on the go, but It just felt like I could see all these opportunities for animation and I knew that I could offer that so it felt [00:22:30] like if you, if I was to consider myself as a business, I have now an extra thing I can offer that would open up scope for more opportunities, not just one thing I could [00:22:40] do.
animation work as well.
Radim Malinic: So, as you mentioned, you've done a TV commercial. So you must be directed a TV commercial. So, in our imposter [00:22:50] way, sometimes you're like, you know, am I doing the things that is sort of, because we all, I like to believe that everyone wants to sort of now and then push themselves. So, But you go from like, okay, well, I'm giving [00:23:00] animation a go.
I'm doing editorial animations, you know, we don't have a budget. And now here's the budget or here's the opportunity to animate now to direct a TV commercial. Like how [00:23:10] daunting was it? Like, did you, did you feel, you know, Hey, I'm here to get it done. Or do you go like, Oh shit. What's next?
Dan Woodger: Yeah, definitely that, Oh shit, [00:23:20] what's next? But I love that. that's the, that's what keeps me ticking and know that I'm pushing in the right direction when I feel like that. cause I can't animate in After Effects or, or anything. make Photoshop [00:23:30] GIFs and then string them together and have to get, an After Effects Ringmaster to put it all together because I still don't know how but I don't think it matters Basically, I've comes the realization doesn't matter [00:23:40] as long as you've got like the vision for it The tools can be worked out like I knew I wanted these things to look like We could find people to help fill in the gaps.
I didn't need to learn [00:23:50] everything So when I took on that job, I remember it was the first time I was working with other animators I just had to immediately hold my hands up and the production team and said, look, I know what I want this to look [00:24:00] like, but I can't make this all myself. We're going to need to get someone who can look after the master file.
And then I can pull the strings to get it in the right direction. And that, that worked [00:24:10] fine. It's worked fine for any animation job I've worked on. But yeah, it was things as well, where I had to be like, okay, I know how to do this, but you were all using other programs and just have [00:24:20] to ask the questions.
can we, you using Flash, and me using Photoshop, and you using After Effects, can we pull this all together into one single output? And [00:24:30] it was fine, it was all good. think it's just being not afraid to ask those questions, and try and work it out, and just throwing yourself in, and trying to learn on the go.
Go is not a bad thing, as long as [00:24:40] you're honest about it and don't try and cover it up, and like then have it all fall out at the end because you don't know what you're doing.
Radim Malinic: think, I think the theme of honesty is important. As has been mentioned on the podcast [00:24:50] before that, you know, when you say what you can do, it's also say what you can do because it's so easy to fall in a trap going, well, of course I can animate a little bit. Of course I [00:25:00] can open After Effects at 11 o'clock at night and work out how to press all the levers and whatever.
And we try to maximize the opportunity, sometimes try to maximize the budget, but all we [00:25:10] do is sometimes maximize The possibility of things going wrong, being found out that we necessarily don't know exactly, you know, we know what we're doing. It's a bit like Joey speaking [00:25:20] French, you know, of course I speak French. You know, and it's like, actually the opportunities grow by opening the doors to others to come back on board because, you [00:25:30] know, it used to be, especially like the times, it was not necessarily like the pandemic, but like, No, your emoji time, like 10 years, 10 years, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, when you said you [00:25:40] couldn't do something, people almost immediately started thinking about replacement.
Like, Oh, this guy, maybe not, might be the right, because we need like the Swiss knife of everything. Whereas [00:25:50] you look at campaigns now, you could look at, production credits on, on fairly simple stuff. And it's like 25 people and you're like, well, I know a guy. Maybe even me, [00:26:00] who can do all of that. I mean, would it be good?
Would it be on time? Would it be fluid? Like, would you have the expertise? Would you have the right? Because from personal experience, when you actually work with people who know [00:26:10] their little bit, that's when the magic happens. You're like, Oh, now we plug it in. And that's what I kind of wanted to stress, especially in this episode.
Like if you're sort of up and coming illustrator, you're [00:26:20] It can feel like you on your own against the world or the world, like, you know, where do I slot in? Where's my peers? Where's my, where's my pals, you know? And it feels like, Oh, I have to really build my own strong [00:26:30] sort of armory and skill set and everything and website and social presence. Because of course, like when I get a job, it's like, all depends on me. Whereas it's like, how can I work with [00:26:40] others and how can I actually collaborate with people that, you know, we can all create the stuff together and everyone should get equally paid. And obviously everyone's, everyone's got opportunity and you never know what goes [00:26:50] next.
Dan Woodger: yeah,that was a lesson learned for me as well, exactly what you're saying, started off very much I'm out here to do for me, this is like solo vision [00:27:00] and then around about that,after emoji point and learning animation point was when I really flipped to the being open to collaboration.
I know exactly the point where it happens. I was [00:27:10] taking on too much work. I had an assistant help me, Katie. I was asking her to animate something. I asked her to do it in a specific way. And then she said, why we could do it like that. And I said, well, no, can we do it this way? And [00:27:20] she told me to my face, Oh, you're so stubborn.
And I was like, I don't know why. Yeah, you're exactly right. I am. I don't know why I'm being so stubborn. Let's try it your way. And from that moment [00:27:30] on, anytime I've taken on a project, I use the kind of phrase we, even though it's just really my company, it's just me. I have assistants that help me occasionally, but it's really, I use the we [00:27:40] because it's I feel like the collaboration on projects is how you get to the end goal.
So forgive me for a second. What's the kind of goal about this point. But if you're working with a brand, [00:27:50] like they have their brand, they have their look, they have their feel and they're commissioning me as an illustrator because they like what I do, but it's like trying to likemerge the two.
They're hiring me because they like my [00:28:00] style and they want to use that style because it's like whatever they're like trendy or like whatever they want the vibe that I give off they want to use to promote their product. But then at the same time it's being like [00:28:10] you have to have a kind of yin and yang relationship with them like there is a relationship there I can't just be like this is all about me, and this is what I do.
You have to have a [00:28:20] relationship where you work together and I think that's where you get the best outcome of the project. one last thing on that. I, for a while, again, around about the same pivot point of the stubbornness moment, [00:28:30] I weirdly got myself painted into a corner where I only used my own colors.
Like, I realized that this is like my color palette. This is the style of color palette I use. And that's where, I would rub up with [00:28:40] brands who were like, no, we have a color palette, We want you to use these colors and I'd be like, no, but you've commissioned me for me because this is what I do.
And I had to break that whole thing down because you can actually make much better work if you have more [00:28:50] collaboration. And so I took the opportunity to readdress what I did, broke down my weirdly formed color palette and started opening myself up to more different colors and different ideas.
And that made for such a [00:29:00] better working practice, better projects, better collaboration, newer ideas, fresh, fresher thinking. Yeah. Just trying to evaluate where you're at and be open to new things. Don't get [00:29:10] stuck in your ways, basically.
Radim Malinic: I can definitely vouch for that period of your life because I was there to witness it. I
was a
path therapist witnessing it. And sometimes you see it like from, [00:29:20] just the desk diagonally from you. I'm thinking it's not worth it, mate. It's worth it. Just open that door and see what happens because yes, we can be, [00:29:30] especially with illustration work, so married to what we've just created. And it's like, but it's done. And I remember having conversations in the past with Chris [00:29:40] Jelly. It was like, we've got a new illustrator. She's done, she's created a first proof and she thinks that's done. You're like, there's so much that you have to tweak because I have, I have [00:29:50] thought about it extensively for many years recently. If I can actually express it that way about when you work for someone using their money to do work for them. You know, like you [00:30:00] are literally a hired skill, regardless how artistic, stylistic, talented, you know, everything that you've got your profile, [00:30:10] after all, it's their time, it's their dime, if that makes sense. And it kind of might be slightly sort of ruthless ways of thinking, like, We want to be celebrated and cherished for the styles that we have, for the colors [00:30:20] that we know we bring to the table, like for, for our traditional sort of, for what we've kind of built for ourselves. And then all of a sudden someone says, well, thank you for bringing this to the table.
We're [00:30:30] going to take half of this. We're going to tell you half of the stuff you don't want to do that you're going to do. And you're like, okay. What's just happened? Like I was supposed to do this to make me [00:30:40] happy, to do the work that I want to do to bring to the world, because I've got a certain vision of the world, only to realize that there's 20 people on the other side of the desk going, Oh, you know what? We'll pay [00:30:50] you, but you're going to do what we're going to tell you, and you're thinking, What, is this how it's supposed to work? Because I was supposed to like do what I love and I love what I do. Then you make me kind of regret these [00:31:00] choices because all of a sudden we're going to compromise. And at the beginning of our careers, you're like, I'm not going to compromise with anyone.
Like I'm going to, well, as you just said, I'm going to be stubborn. Like this is my vision. [00:31:10] And then you realize, you know what? That's actually quite okay to compromise because I'd never know where that compromise is going to take us. You know, in jazz music, they say that a mistake is an [00:31:20] opportunity that, you know, you sort of, you know, something happens by accident and you find your sort of path and, outcomes from, what you were not expecting.
And I think. People should be like you have been like sort [00:31:30] of looking after their sort of style and expression, but also be prepared to open sort of conversations and actually having people cross pollinating your world by [00:31:40] saying, you know, we can animate it better. We can do this better. We can do that better. But. I want to stay with the brands and collaboration with illustrators, because we've had, you know, [00:31:50] in our little office in the past, lots of conversations about yourself and other illustrators, like how one style, like really recognizable trademark style is then [00:32:00] used for different brands. And what's your view on sort of. Tweaking, like has, has your style evolved to, you know, if you do work for [00:32:10] various companies, like how do you make it look like it's actually distinguishable? Because yes, you know, I'm a divergent working for this company, that company, like what goes into sort of, what's the word? That's not [00:32:20] amalgamation, but a sort of mutations of this style.
Like how do you sort of evolve it?
Dan Woodger: Yeah, a good question for now, actually, because I'm feeling quite inspired again. [00:32:30] my style has evolved massively. I think, When I first started, it was much more cartoony than it took to kind of got stripped down and refined into like more simplistic [00:32:40] shapes and leg sizes have gone up.
Head sizes have gone down. It's all kind of moved and shifted around, but I think through that over the time, I like that. I like that my work is evolving [00:32:50] and moving and I get to try new things because I think I would get bored just doing the same thing over and over again. I like this Oh, I'm going to try this now, try this now and keep it moving.
and I'm [00:33:00] thinking about another point again, now, or I'm feeling really inspired to be a bit more, even like more expressive with the shapes that my characters do and be a little bit more in abstract in [00:33:10] places and play, have a little bit more play with it. And I was having this conversation yesterday with another illustrator, that I think.
When you're a student and you [00:33:20] start out, you're so desperate to have an identity of like a recognizable style.but actually I think that there is, if it's coming from [00:33:30] you and it's genuine and it's coming from what you're passionate about doing, then it is your style. Like if it's really true to the work that you, feel that you want to make, then it doesn't really [00:33:40] necessarily have to be done in the exact same way every time.
I don't know if that kind of makes sense, but what I've found is that even though my work has evolved and changed over time, because I'm doing what I love doing and I'm [00:33:50] not really worried about whether anymore, whether the colors that match, whether they match my. algorithmic boxes on Instagram and they all look like succinct and all feel [00:34:00] like they're uniform.
That, that doesn't matter to me as much anymore because like I'm making work that I love and enjoy and whether that one's a little bit looser, that one's a bit tighter, that one's using bright colors, that one's using pastel colors because [00:34:10] it's coming from me that is my style and I feel like that's definitely where I've been.
I feel like I'm in a good place with that at the moment.
Radim Malinic: overthink it like when we are young, because we haven't, [00:34:20] and again, this is another thing I'm sort of grinding to death on this podcast. Like when you haven't lived a little, it's so easy to be overwhelmed, like with all of the options, because [00:34:30] When you're in your formative years, you want to be that something, like people talk about early niching and early styles and stuff, but in music, [00:34:40] I think there's this advice, like make as many tracks as as many styles and see what you actually like, because you might be sort of going like, okay, maybe the market or the advertising market, which is obviously ruthless in [00:34:50] picking things up, elevating them, okay, but we had six months of this, What's who's next?
Like, literally like you create, you keep creating styles all the time. And obviously there's things in vogue and they just come and go. [00:35:00] And as you can see, like this kind of cycle of like 10 years, you know, the illustrations goes from one style to another style to 3d stuff or whatever. And I [00:35:10] think it's really hard to pick the thing that is actually genuine for you.
Because I mean, sometimes you can have the expression, but is it artistically fine because you might be doubting yourself like, well, I've got this [00:35:20] amazing thing that I love and I'm. truly passionate about it, but no one's commissioned me for this, you know, like, because the universe hasn't very aligned with this.
So you haven't made enough noise. You haven't been there [00:35:30] to express yourself enough. Whereas I think being, I think there's a difference between style and talent because you've created your name for yourself mostly by doing a [00:35:40] particular style of work, but now you could be in commission for your talent by, okay, what can we do with Dan, which is. ingredients, like this, this is what he's done. This is his legacy. This is, this is the [00:35:50] work he's going to produce for others. Where do we go next with it? Because there's some sort of relation. It's like, there's people who buy into it, people who admire it. They're like, okay, we've got [00:36:00] certain amount of ingredients based on, from Dan.
What do we do with it? I think that's, that opens up a bigger conversation and bigger, Possibility and actually what you can do with your work rather than [00:36:10] I've got seven color palette and I'm overthinking my Instagram giz.
Dan Woodger: Yeah, I wanted to also like, sort of clarify on what I was saying as well before [00:36:20] where,just because it's coming from me means it's my style. That's not completely, that phrase in itself isn't completely genuine because it is, it's true to an extent, but there is like [00:36:30] a, there is a set of set ingredients, as you put it, that, that make up I do.
And so that's like kind of use of line work, like character [00:36:40] stuff,and then the kind of mission statement for my work, which is make fun, silly stuff. Like fun and silly is like the vibe of my work. And as long as it's like doing, those three [00:36:50] things and it's mine and it can it can play jazz with those three things like kind of move in different places it can be crowd scenes it can be singular it can be animation but comes back to those core ingredients so i wanted to just [00:37:00] make sure i clarified that because if i was doing like three three or four very different things like i don't even know how to describe like my illustration characters then doing I don't know, Art Deco, like Prints, or and [00:37:10] just because they were coming from me wouldn't make it coherent, it has those three ingredients, but like playing with those three things, in like a parameter, is the way, the [00:37:20] best way to describe what I'm doing with quote unquote style.
because also hate that like, I think it's very easy to say things like on podcasts like this and then some people go, what do you [00:37:30] mean? I just wanted to make sure I was like being a little bit more clear about that.
Radim Malinic: Dan, you're overthinking it again. You're overthinking it again.
I'm curious about [00:37:40] the, let's call it a signature style. So I'm curious about signature styles and the application to brands and the longevity for you as an artist.
Because with the Usain, you [00:37:50] know, there's always a view of looking into what you do with the next, but both know, and I'm sure lots of people will know in the industry that you can make something really [00:38:00] famous.you get obviously very well known, you get very much in, in, in, in demand, but sometimes it could be also double edged sword because those, [00:38:10] because you get commissioned for just that type of work. Like you don't get necessarily too much. you might not, might not need to make too many compromises because you're literally hired to be you [00:38:20] and to do your stuff. But sometimes people actually, I think regret would be the wrong word to say, but like having just signature so strong that it doesn't sort of allow you to do [00:38:30] anything different.
Because I remember it was Monica Fabra who said, it was only about like four times in her career where people said, well, let's see what, happens because you get commissioned to be you. So [00:38:40] let's say you rewind back to your, okay, your 18 self go like, I really want this style. You've got it. You kind of have to keep it up. For the next 20 years? [00:38:50] Did you ever struggle? I mean, you're progressing on this, but your sort of thought on that?
Dan Woodger: Yeah, that's where I think, I have been, [00:39:00] whether this is falling into it slightly or maybe it's is conscious. I have various things I do. I start like when I do talks, I do like an overview of my work and [00:39:10] I think it's broken into like categories of the style, but then it falls into different types of projects.
So there's the crowd scene work, the singular character design. Actually, I've had quite a bit of this [00:39:20] work where it's like specifically working on, singular character design, which is interesting. Then there's like animation work. There's, editorial work. There's the kind of, there's all these different like [00:39:30] facets to what I do.
so it keeps the projects pretty varied. I think that keeps it interesting for me because I could do like a character design project. Then the next thing can be a really [00:39:40] detailed crowdsourcing projects and they feel like two different things. So I think that's. Not only keeps it interesting for me, but also keeps, my, as a business, like quite flexible and nimble because there's [00:39:50] different ways I can focus.
And emojis was that for a little bit where I was doing that for a while. Some are usually happy to let the wind carry me where it's going with these different types of [00:40:00] flavors of the month sort of thing. sometimes people are really into crowd scenes and suddenly it's more singular character stuff that it's more animation work.
So it feels nice to be able to jump from those different [00:40:10] arenas.
Radim Malinic: I think we're thinking about the, crounties when you're describing it. It just kind of makes me think back to your emoji stuff because they are sort of labour intensive pieces of work. That make you a [00:40:20] more sort of disappear of the face of the social media and like nothing you just you head down I remember somebody was asking me like do you miss being in the office?
I was like no because we said hello to each other put our [00:40:30] headphones on didn't speak to each other for six hours because we're Both busy if you just went home But I want to circle to towards social media because you've done, you've done this post recently [00:40:40] where you said, Hey, look, this is my summary of my life.
Like this, like a real, where I know you've changed your diet. Obviously you listen to, the ultra processed [00:40:50] people, the book, have I got it right? Ultra
processed. And you made changes, obviously, and again, your discipline is what carries you really well.[00:41:00]
You've disappeared from social media, which to some people might be absolutely unthinkable.
Like, I've got a post every day or every week or every day. So, and that's, that's what we [00:41:10] sort of let the belief, but. What's your view on social media? Cause I'm sure it's done well for you and it's done, you know, it's got your work and stuff, but you've kind of removed yourself from that cycle. And I [00:41:20] know you're happier, but how was the shift then?
And what, what, what, what was, what's your learnings?
Dan Woodger: Yeah. Again, I'll try and keep it fairly concise.
[00:41:30] so yeah, I've had cycles of, different feelings on social media. Sometimes I've really leaned in. Sometimes I've moved away, for a while before, we had a [00:41:40] little girl, Rosanna. we I put in tons of effort into social media. I did a weekly roundup on social media every single week, like to go through what I was [00:41:50] doing.
And it was a lot of work, like a kind of weird, on top of the work I was doing, I was also dedicating a lot of time to this. And then you saw my hand was forced slightly by having a child and other responsibilities. And I just, I [00:42:00] didn't have the time for it, but also like I found, it frustrating.
I think I had during lockdown, I had a bit of a, Honestly, a bit of a breakup with it [00:42:10] because what I do, I said this earlier, like I make fun, silly work, like that's what I do. I think with social media can be really difficult because there's obviously [00:42:20] like world politics and events. And I think you get drawn into those conversations because you feel like you, you have to also speak out about these terrible things that are happening.
But my [00:42:30] platform is, talking about really stupid shit, and so I feel really weird, having that, I don't know, I basically, I got caught up in not knowing what to do and I had to go clear my head and like, [00:42:40] it was during the Black Lives Matter stuff, I wanted to feel like I was, contributing to sort of helping raise awareness of the injustice, but at the same time, I didn't feel like my platform was [00:42:50] turning showing googly eyes characters is the right place to do it.
So I had to basically set a boundary for myself, which this might be [00:43:00] criticized, but basically I don't talk about anything global events on my social media channels anymore. Like it is purely my silly work. I have this little bubble and that's all when you come [00:43:10] to my social media channels, all I do. So that was the first kind of thing I had to draw a line on.
I will take care of like things that I'm passionate about in terms of world events offline. and [00:43:20] contribute to those conversations offline. and that was the first thing that I had to get in my head that was right. And then the next thing was like how I then find [00:43:30] time to showcase my work.
because I'm busy, I have a child, like we're trying to eat better, trying to like exercise more. There are only certain like things, certain amount of hours in the day. And so last [00:43:40] year I took a real like step back. I just took massive amounts of time off. I didn't post much at all. And then I yeah, recapped at the end of the year to be like, this is what I've been up [00:43:50] to.
I've got myself in a good place. Like work is good. Home life is good. So I'm managing to exercise more than I've ever done in my life. And I've like [00:44:00] reading ultra process people really opened up my eyes to looking after myself nutritionally. and then I'm really glad you brought this up now because I've had, I said at the end of that [00:44:10] kind of conversation, I'm not sure how I'm going to use social media going forward, but I'll have a think about it this year.
I've tried to. Think about how I can, as a business, I use it. I can't completely stay away. Like [00:44:20] that's impossible. I have to promote what I do. but how can I do that in a, I don't know, in a way that works for me. And what I found by being away for so long and sorry, I do realize I'm going on a [00:44:30] lot, but like what I found from being away for so long for The last 12 months really didn't post very much at all.
Was that actually building up to actually talk about things without acknowledging the absence, felt like this whole weighted [00:44:40] pressure that I was like, oh God, I haven't said anything for ages. How do I even step back into this mad conversation again? And so this year I've tried to take approach of like I am.
I'm just like [00:44:50] posting pretty freely, but trying not to take too much time about it. So there's a thing that I'm doing at the moment where I'm posting up just a little snapshot of my day, just like a Monday to Friday, like just posting out like kind of things that I see [00:45:00] or things that I find visually interesting as a way to almost just loosen up this relationship because no one cares.
Everyone's scrolling through like hundreds of images a day. It actually isn't that big a [00:45:10] thing, but by loosening up like my relationship with it and like making it much more free has like a thing actually helped me like grease it up a little bit. So when there is work to be posted, I'm not overthinking how I [00:45:20] share it.
It's just like getting it out there onto the next thing. And I think that's been much more useful for me this year.
Radim Malinic: I think it's the, untamed, unregulated sort of nature of what we do [00:45:30] there. Cause when you think about it, everything that we, that was, that was created was slightly morphed into different usage and it, after all, it's a broadcasting tool, [00:45:40] but we expect people to talk back when they don't talk back, be like, well, I've put all this effort into this.
Like, why are you not talking back to me? Why don't you like my post? and one of my books, I talk about like defining it enough. [00:45:50] Like how many likes do you need? Because you get, you get a breakthrough post, you get a thousand likes. You're like, Oh, let's have 2000 likes on the next one. Why, why why do you need that?
Like, why, why do you expect that the [00:46:00] universe will sort of deliver on your, on this all the time? And it reminds me of a, of a tweet that somebody said, like, Hey guys, I'm in hospital, I can't post every day for a, for a while. Like, [00:46:10] take your time. Of course, like we've created these digital communities that if you, for example, if you are remote, this could be your lifeline, you have to accept it.
Like, you know, there are people who are relying on [00:46:20] the people online, but. We've created this monster, especially with the sort of word perception that, Oh, you have to do these things because they will guarantee you X, Y, Zed. [00:46:30] But obviously we've all been on, on, online for more than 10 years and online as in like on social media for more than 10 years. Not much has changed, like everyone's work might change [00:46:40] every few years or whatever, but the images we post, you know, for example, like let's even look in a joke, sort of carefully created grids. Oh, it's done with you again. Like sometimes you just, just [00:46:50] scroll. You don't even have time to put a like on it or just put someone else's like, and like, you just sort of, you create this weird gauge of like, Well, you've done a better work before.
Should I give you like, no, should I give that person a [00:47:00] like, it's just that it's, it's transactional and so surface level yet we gauge so much emotion value and response to it because we want to be accepted for the work that [00:47:10] we create. And now. When you sort of add in the emotional investment of our work, okay, so I've created this.
This is my expression. This is what I want to be doing for a living. [00:47:20] No one seems to like it. Or I didn't get as many likes on this one. Like it's such a head fuck cocktail of, of emotions that you're like, just, it's okay to [00:47:30] take it easy. Because what you've mentioned, Obviously being away from it and sort of spending more time on your family, on your diet, on your exercise. That's how people used to live [00:47:40] 20 years ago. And everyone was working, no one was going bankrupt, you know, because what people do is they put in the work through the connections of people [00:47:50] that do the work. So if you make yourself visible on some channels, Then, you know, if it's your own website or you've got illustration agents, that's where [00:48:00] the people who are going to commission you're most likely to be sort of orbiting because the stuff that comes through social media made new work more accessible. But [00:48:10] also there's no gatekeepers. So any, any old Gary can go, Hey, no, I need this stuff doing, and they've got no idea how to do it. So you have to do handholding. You have to be a lot more prepared [00:48:20] for what's going to come to you from, from that sort of way. So, yeah, I think staying away from social can seem so, so bad, but it hasn't, in fact, it made all the improvement in your life.[00:48:30]
Dan Woodger: Yeah, it did. And also it's trying to, I don't know, you, we're always reassessing our relationship with it because it's a game that we have no control over. [00:48:40] Instagram decides how they switch their algorithms up. Like it's something we can't control. So I've tried to not see it as the most important thing in my life.
It's pretty low down on the hierarchy. it's something [00:48:50] that I actually turn on, I don't have my notifications on it, so I almost like choose to step in, hear some stuff I've been doing, and then step out again, like rather than being too self involved in it, chasing [00:49:00] likes, trying to see how many likes that got, I've tried to abandon all that and just throw stuff out into it and then dive back out again.
That's how my approach with social media these days.
Radim Malinic: And I think it's [00:49:10] a valid approach because some people might say like, Well, you're not supporting new talent. You're not liking the people. But the thing is, who says we need to do that? Like, [00:49:20] obviously, you're making your own choice. Like, people who are following you, which Everyone's grateful for, they sacrificing their time.
They're sacrificing [00:49:30] the productivity. They're like, okay, I'm going to have a look. I'm going to follow this. So of course you learn and you can see what someone's in Buenos Aires is doing. And so like you, you get a view of the trends and stuff, which [00:49:40] is great, but it's more like you make a choice to just to go and see it rather than,
you know,
Dan Woodger: Yeah. That's it.
It's just the same thing I said about some social issues. There's other ways to support it than [00:49:50] being on social media. I work with the AOI, to support illustrators that way. You know, I'm like very passionate about like how we support grassroot illustration, especially in the wake of AI and stuff.
That's how I, better [00:50:00] use my time to help illustrators and spending it on. social media. I think there's other ways to do things that isn't online.
Radim Malinic: You know, I like, your thing that you said a short while ago that [00:50:10] you keep the conversations that matter to a private circle or like keep them offline because it's that uninformed hysteria. It's just like, you know, you hear someone with a [00:50:20] snippet, you don't listen to the end of the conversation or even the end of the line and you're like, The world is burning.
Everything's bad. Like people are against me. You're like, actually read three more lines because that'll [00:50:30] be more finance. Like there's the handbags and you know, all the little sort of social media fights. Like that's unnecessary. Like obviously we, we, like the more we understand that I should listen to one another is [00:50:40] we've got so much more in common. And yeah, as you know, I mean, I've got very much similar approach to social media and I think it's now turned into like, you look at different platforms and everyone on [00:50:50] Twitter wants to be like a one line. viral designer, you know, like, Oh, look, I've got these memes. And there's literally accounts I've seen that literally it's all about just churning out some random memes, meme, meme, [00:51:00] meme every day.
It's like, I mean, I'm sure one of them is going to catch a fire, but then it's going to be gone in three days. You know, like, what's the point?
Dan Woodger: I am sympathetic to [00:51:10] newer illustrators though that because we didn't obviously grow up in like that environment where it was such an important part of being an illustrator or a designer. I think it's the game has shifted so [00:51:20] much from when we started that it almost does feel, I think it feels to students and people who are starting out that is the first port of call to build an audience.
I don't really know how we combat [00:51:30] that because it does feel like that's important. I feel like it is the way to the gateway to getting your work seen. I don't know,I sympathize how people would step into that environment because they can't just [00:51:40] take the advice that I've taken where I like, I just pop in, throw stuff out and then throw it out.
They probably do need to build it a little bit more, but I don't know. I
Radim Malinic: think it's the expectations that you put stuff on
social and then the [00:51:50] world shows up. I think you should only use it like a sort of oversized business card and go, look, this is where I am. Come and come and see it. BecauseWhen you [00:52:00] think about it from a historical point of view, like the galleries didn't come to you.
You have to go to the gallery. You have to go and do this. And to know there's a gallery, the gallery sent you a flyer [00:52:10] that somebody else told you about it. And what I always feel, and it's been echoed on this podcast quite a few times, is the meaningful connections. You don't have to send a cold email [00:52:20] to 700 people and go, Do you need me?
As opposed to like, I think I like a narrative. I like a brand. I like what your agency is doing. I would think that we can do something [00:52:30] somewhere because you never know when you might be needed for a particular project or particular style or particular type of work. But I just feel like that sort of. I [00:52:40] think a passive approach to, to career growth, it's no one's expecting your greatness.
Like no one's there sort of like, Oh, we need the next [00:52:50] Dan Boudreau in 15 years. Who do we gonna, who do we build up? Like we don't have football academies for illustrators, you know, like a sort of style if you don't have the breathing pan. That [00:53:00] we would be looking after the talent because I mean, I know that what you guys would do with AOI is to have some sort of community support and like, how do you sort of steer people and how to navigate the situation is kind of [00:53:10] like a helping hand.
But it all stems from you, like what you've been describing for the last, almost an hour. It's like, you've gone through your sort of career path and actually made your own work [00:53:20] happen, made your sort of universe happen persevered at this and then try and sort of widen your network as far as possible to make sure that your career is viable, because [00:53:30] even with the help of an agent, An agent can't make nothing work, you know, when you, when I hear people in the book world, like, well, my book's not selling, maybe I should give it to a book agent. [00:53:40] They won't sell your book, but you have to build your own profile, like you have to do this and you have to work on yourself to be able to do that. Do you agree?
Dan Woodger: yeah, I do. I think it's, the other thing as [00:53:50] well. Like, If I had to start now and try and build the portfolio or like work that I've been doing and had to dedicate 60 percent of my day to cutting and editing videos for TikTok, [00:54:00] surely like that's 40 percent it's going to take me longer to build up the work because I'm only spending 40 percent of my day actually making videos.
work. Most of it's like showing the work [00:54:10] and I feel like, I don't know, it doesn't feel like the right priority.like it feels like you should build up and learn these skills rather than, I don't know, making up yourself [00:54:20] because we're like, I don't know, not everyone is like a personality. I don't know.
It's a weird place, isn't it? but I don't think everyone has to be like, have their own TikTok or YouTube [00:54:30] channel to be an illustrator. I think that it's okay to lean into the skills that you're actually good at and push those.
Radim Malinic: I think it's about re imagining what you can do. Obviously, being a [00:54:40] novice, obviously we, we talk from a position where we've been in our careers for a lot longer than someone who might be listening to this episode going, Well, I'm still at uni, you know, what do I do? Like, [00:54:50] because the social media is basically like a megaphone on steroids.
Like you can be seen if the algorithm is on your side, or if you've got the right thing for the right [00:55:00] people and you can see that, for example, people who are younger than us, they've got bigger following because there's more of them being sort of digital natives or being in the same crowd, obviously, there's definitely the generation [00:55:10] appeal, but How do you use your time? Because when all is said and done, when you look back at your career and you're like, Oh, well, I did a really good TikTok in [00:55:20] 2024, but it's now 2040. Like that's not going to make a change. It's like, how do you reimagine and how do you almost step out, back out in the physical [00:55:30] world?
Like I'm creating one that people can have a sort of emotional connection or physical connection, like not play to their senses, sensory experience. Like that's I think it always [00:55:40] will go back to that fact that if you're creating something that lives in the real world, it doesn't matter how many TikTok followers you've got, how many Instagram followers you've got, because They can make some [00:55:50] decisions for some decision makers bigger because they might be trying to sort of piggyback on your virtual internet fame, but it's about how you change the world around you.
And this is what you sort [00:56:00] of said, like through the conversations with people, you know, about the topics that matter and actually having proper interpersonal connections is more about how that word comes to life, because [00:56:10] that's ultimately is how we. come and perceive the work of an illustrator, like how we actually come to know how we can follow up with the brand because they've chosen the right person. And I feel, and I'm [00:56:20] not a boomer, but, it is when you think about it, like it is about that emotional response to what we do, which is, I'm almost offered in a physical [00:56:30] form because I like every gift I've seen. You know, it makes me laugh, but I don't, I don't have it in my pocket.
Dan Woodger: Yeah,
I know we're [00:56:40] like, it's I feel like we're stuck in the social media question because it's such a big thing that I can't get, I don't think we're all still always thinking about and trying to work out the best approach to it, but think I have a quite a good example [00:56:50] of the longevity of work that you're creating versus like you say, like looking back at a TikTok you made five years ago.
going over to America in a few weeks, [00:57:00] and I wanted to put out like a social thing for, meetings and stuff, just to say I'm about town. I went back through my archives and I found a GIF that I made last time I went to America that said, like, basically, it's [00:57:10] perfectly usable for this again.
So I'm just gonna Tweak it slightly and resend it. I'll just change the date on it. I wouldn't be able to do that with a TikTok video. It'd be like five years ago what I looked like five years ago. Like it would [00:57:20] be probably completely outta content. I can't edit the things I said, but I could edit a gif and an animation that I made and just repurpose it and it, that work that I made is far more substantial and there's more [00:57:30] longevity than a throwaway kind of video that I would've spent a lot of time editing and tweaking and stuff.
I dunno, it just feels. The work has a longer lasting, it feels like more [00:57:40] valuable than these kind of throwaway social media, things that kind of get forgotten about.
Radim Malinic: I think they're called assets for a reason. You know, you've got these assets that you can sort of build an equity, [00:57:50] a visual equity, you know, visual assets and visual library there, that's still you. So if it's, if it's in a printed form, if it's on your hard drive, that's still sort of enhances to who you are and sort of [00:58:00] expresses that, to the wider masses. Hey Dan, so you're going to America. I'm excited about what you've achieved and I'm also, I think kind of more [00:58:10] excited about your social media absence that, you know, you thrive in your personal life and that will always and ultimately have an impact on your professional life [00:58:20] because usually you're more at peace with yourself and everything's more balanced, you know, a stronger family foundation is always.
something that, that helps your work be less drama, you know, [00:58:30] you know, like there's, there's, if there's fires everywhere and you know, how can you focus on what you're trying to do? So, yeah, I'm really, really in awe of the career that you've built for yourself and I kind of like, I've seen [00:58:40] the last many years and I'm kind of really excited to see what, you know, what you're going to do with it next.
So just as a sort of closing question, is there anyone left that you haven't worked with that is still on [00:58:50] your target?
Dan Woodger: Oh yeah, Nike. They're my like, they're my white whale. I've wanted to work with Nike for my entire career. Came close four times, never happened. I used to draw all [00:59:00] my characters as a kid with little Nike trainers on, Nike football boots on. Haven't been able to land them, so I'm, they're still the one I'm chasing, and then.
Then once I've got that, I don't know, [00:59:10] give up, finish, close up shop, career's
done.
No,
Radim Malinic: Really need to come up with new
dreams.
Dan Woodger: yeah, I know. it's weird. It's like just a weird anomaly that I've never [00:59:20] worked with them. so that's, that's the one I'm still chasing. but honestly, I'm trying to shift a little bit away from like really focusing on client stuff all the time and definitely trying to invest more in, [00:59:30] me and just making sure that I'm.
Enjoying myself and having fun. That's what makes me tick. So as long as I'm doing that and then the clients want to come join me, that's, that makes me happy.
Radim Malinic: [00:59:40] Fantastic mindset. Done. Thank you very much for spending time with me this, this morning. And yeah, I'll see you soon.
Dan Woodger: Thanks, man. You too.
Outro - TO USE: [00:59:50] Thank you for listening to this episode of Creativity for Sale podcast. The show was produced and presented by me, Radek Malanich. Editing and audio production was [01:00:00] masterfully done
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