"Comfort and creativity aren't necessarily great bedfellows. There has to be a degree of discomfort to create anything interesting, to do work that's going to cut through."

Max Ottignon, co-founder of Ragged Edge branding agency, discusses the journey of building a purpose-driven creative business. He shares insights on the importance of language in branding, the value of discomfort in creativity, and the evolution of Ragged Edge's positioning. Max emphasizes the need for conviction in ideas while maintaining collaborative relationships with clients. He also touches on the challenges and rewards of staying true to a vision in a rapidly changing industry.

Key Takeaways:

• Embracing discomfort is crucial for creating innovative and impactful work in branding.
• Verbal identity is as important as visual identity in building strong brands.
• Having a clear positioning helps attract like-minded clients and leads to better work.
• The creative process often involves balancing conviction in ideas with collaboration.
• Awards can be a useful benchmark for work quality but aren't necessarily crucial for business success.
• AI tools are becoming increasingly important in the creative process, but human expertise remains vital.
• Building a successful branding agency takes time and involves continuous evolution and self-reflection.
• Focusing on creating meaningful change for clients can lead to more fulfilling and impactful work.

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Max:  [00:00:00] every time I say that number, it's terrifying and quite sobering. Definitely not an overnight success.

 [00:00:10] doing things differently is uncomfortable and pushing yourselves towards the ragged edge of what's possible is what creates change.

Max: comfort and creativity [00:00:20] aren't necessarily great bedfellows, I think. there has to be a degree of discomfort create anything interesting, [00:00:30] 

Radim: Hello and welcome to Creativity for Sale podcast, a show to help you start and grow your life changing creative career and business. My name is Radim Malinich [00:00:40] and creativity changed my life. You see, I believe creativity can change your life too. I even wrote a book about it and it inspired this podcast. I've set out to [00:00:50] interview the world's most brilliant creatives, designers, writers, musicians, makers and marketeers about their life changing experiences with creativity.

If you ever [00:01:00] wanted to know how people go from their humble beginnings to the pinnacle of their success, our conversation should provide you with an intimate look into triumphs, challenges and [00:01:10] untold stories behind their creative endeavours. We also discuss the highs and lows of creative careers and creative life.

So Thank you for joining me on this exploration of [00:01:20] passion, creativity, innovation, and the boundless potential within us all. Let creativity change your life. Are you ready?

 [00:01:30] My guest today has co founded a branding agency for people who care less about how things are and more about how they could be. [00:01:40] A perfect fit for changemakers and businesses with the convictions to challenge the status quo. From their London studio for clients around the world, he guides his team to solve [00:01:50] complex, critical problems in transforming businesses from the inside out.

 It's my pleasure to introduce Max Ottingon from Ragged Edge.

 [00:02:00] [00:02:10] Hey Max, it's nice to have you on the show. How are you doing?

Max: Pretty good. Thanks for having me.

Radim: as you know, I've been hounding you to come on the show because, I [00:02:20] really enjoyed your talking of Barcelona. It was nice to catch up with you, over a few beers just before the festival. And yeah, I've got loads of questions, lots of intriguing questions and obviously something that I hope [00:02:30] that, will give a lot of value to our audience.

For those who may have not ever heard of you or Rugged Edge, would you please introduce yourself briefly?

Max: my name's Max Otteniol. I'm [00:02:40] a co founder of Ragged Edge, which is a branding agency, based in Farringdon, London.so I'm co founder, there's the other chap, Matt, he [00:02:50] runs more of the business side of things, which means that my job is, probably a fun one, I get to oversee the work and, like building the brand and all the client stuff.

obviously you guys are [00:03:00] prominent players in the branding scene, like you do the stuff that people wish they had done but it's not an overnight success. how long has Ragged Edge been going?

coming up to 17 years, which is [00:03:10] every time I say that number, it's terrifying and quite sobering. Definitely not an overnight success.

Radim: I remember, you giving a talk at Design Versus [00:03:20] Business, about six years ago, and there was an intriguing story to Wrecking Edge because it wasn't always. A branding agency, was it? Cause I think you guys started because of an email landing in [00:03:30] your inbox and you ended up doing something which kind of doesn't have anything to do with what you do now.

So would you share the story?

Max: So I started like I'd used to work in advertising as a client [00:03:40] service person and I was neither very good at it, nor did I enjoy it, to be honest, and a lot of that was to do with the specific agency that I was working with, which [00:03:50] is very corporate and impersonal. And the clients we were working with kind of a bit gross.

Max: Ragged Edge is a bit of a response to that really. I started then [00:04:00] freelancing, as a designer.but obviously when you're freelancing, you're doing everything, aren't you? You're doing the sort of client service, you're doing the strategy, you're doing the writing, you're doing the design. I was freelancing direct for clients.

Max: and I [00:04:10] met my business partner, Matt, who at the time was, developer, like front and back end, developer. And we started together, the sort of, the birth of Ragged Edge really was like design and [00:04:20] write, design, writing and building websites. And it was at the time when, websites weren't really designed.

They were just sort of assembled. so we were great opportunity [00:04:30] to carve out a niche and being able to do something that at the time no one was really doing. It's obviously like everywhere now, but at the time it just wasn't a thing. and then it grew from that. our first [00:04:40] big client we won at a networking breakfast, the only networking breakfast I've ever been to. which is a, it was a holiday company, luxury holiday company called Black Tomato.and I maybe slightly [00:04:50] oversold what Ragged Edge was at that point. but we got the client,we built the website.

 and it won like a big award, a Guardian. Travel website of the year or something. so that's [00:05:00] pretty cool for the first project and I think. I'm trying to think what, like the email you're talking about, but then we, the other client that we won very quickly was a Grey Geese Vodka and we helped launch them in [00:05:10] the UK.

So they were unknown at the time in the UK, but obviously massive in the U Sand that sort of kicked off a relationship that we still have to this day, where we just did everything for [00:05:20] them. lots of design, like the first job we did was a some invitation design for a big, event with the Elton John AIDS foundation.

and then it just grew from that. And we did, lots of graphic [00:05:30] design, we did events. one of the weirdest ones we did, we hosted a nightclub in Elton John's garden. It's pretty cool. where we actually designed like a pop up nightclub space and stuff and had [00:05:40] Fatboy Slim DJing and stuff like that.

It was pretty wild.where we did like social stuff. So I think I used to run the Greggies Twitter point.like taking photos of my, Friday [00:05:50] evening drinks and putting them on the internet. It was Greggies. Yeah, so all sorts really. we just took everything we could get our hands on.

Radim: I think your quote in that talk was that whatever the choice you make, it takes [00:06:00] 10 years to undo. Because I remember you said what you really wanted to do is to be a branding agency, but what you happen to do is respond to clients doing exactly what they ask you to do. Like you would have [00:06:10] 

never thought when you left client services, that you would be building a nightclub in Elton John's garden And I think this is what we do as creative. Like sometimes before you actually make it clear to [00:06:20] yourself who you want to be and what you want to do, we just go wherever the wind takes you. And. In an interesting way, actually, I would like to see your view on this, but I think it's an interesting [00:06:30] sort of character and skillset building because when you don't know what you really want to do, you want to be excited about creativity.

You want to work with all sorts of people on all sorts of things. It gives you more of [00:06:40] an understanding of what the possibilities could be because There's a lot of messaging out there right now about niching. 

Whereas I feel like that cross pollination of ideas and experience is actually, [00:06:50] Ragged Edge today wouldn't have been what it is today. If it wasn't for, experiential marketing company at the beginning. Is that right?

Max: A hundred percent. I think one of the big challenges, particularly in [00:07:00] branding, at the moment, but potentially in all sorts of disciplines, but especially in branding, like brand is about. A whole idea and an experience. It's not just about like graphic design and [00:07:10] visual identities and logos and typefaces and stuff.

And so I think that the experience that we had in being able to directly [00:07:20] create all sorts of different versions of marketing and implement and bring different brands to life in all sorts of different ways. Really now helps the way we think where we're not just thinking about brand as [00:07:30] a design thing.

We're thinking about how can we create this idea that can live like everywhere that a brand can. And we know, we can think back to our days putting on events and how would this brand work [00:07:40] in that space? How would it work, in social, how would it work in all the different channels? which I think maybe if we hadn't had that direct experience, it might not come as naturally.

Radim: [00:07:50] Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, when you mentioned that, obviously you find yourself being more of a, Kind of jack of all trades. And you said, we really want it to be branding agency. Where did that longing for [00:08:00] branding came? Because branding is now, I think in a way, I think we've gone past the first peak of global branding development,how good we can be with [00:08:10] huge teams and small teams, because I think the internet has opened the possibilities of okay, what does actually good branding system could look like? And you can emulate it even as a freelancer, which [00:08:20] you can create all of the weird sort of touch points and bento boxes.

And, like you can animate stuff and it's no longer magic. So I think we past the first peak. But before that all happened, [00:08:30] obviously you wanted to have a branding agency. What was the drive where,branding wasn't cool back then. many things moved, bento books has never been invented, beautiful colors were not [00:08:40] used that often.

and in a way, when you talk about nearly 15, 16, 17 years, we had a different landscape, like we were not as knowledgeable on client side and design side to actually [00:08:50] create things. So what was your drive and strive for branding?

Max: Yeah, I agree with all of that, a lot of it came from that initial experience in advertising. And I think one of the things that I [00:09:00] found frustrating, was how shallow, the work that we were doing it felt like shallow. It felt short term. It felt ephemeral. often some of the [00:09:10] work felt outright misleading.

 And I think what I saw in branding, at least back in 20, whenever it is 2007, and what I still [00:09:20] believe now is like the opportunity to work in branding means affecting your business right from the inside out is fundamental. and I think, businesses that built on with [00:09:30] strong brands on it, we know, that they tend to be more successful.

There's all sorts of data out there to define that. And so getting to work in branding, you're right at the heart of businesses. and you can build [00:09:40] something real depth, real substance, that can have real lasting impact. And I agree at the time, and maybe still now it's not considered the cool thing.

 But for [00:09:50] me, it is so exciting for how much of an impact you can have on businesses,indirectly on the world itself.

Radim: Because when you look [00:10:00] back to some of those brand guidelines, which were like two, three hundred pages long. It was mainly about don't do this, don't do that. Don't touch this, don't change that. Don't do this. I remember as [00:10:10] a designer, I was working on AOL at some point in like mid 2000s and it was like, they just had that colorful rebrand and stuff.

And it was like, someone brought up a commission works like, you know, have you not [00:10:20] seen the page one 17? It doesn't work, does it? Like when you think about how many sort of legacy touchpoints and tools we had. And I think the beauty of [00:10:30] where we are now and where we're heading is that we have that sort of cross pollination of ideas and experiences.

And actually we talk to one another from across the room, across the companies, like [00:10:40] actually we can improve on all of this stuff rather than like. Don't touch this.we all know it's a bit of shit. It's a bit bland, but don't touch this. You can't do this. And of course what happens, designers do whatever designers want [00:10:50] to do, like this is the thing.

So I think we, as I said, we find ourselves like running towards that peak where we create more amazing things. Obviously we've got more experience. Obviously we enrich the [00:11:00] brands with actually possibilities because. If there's one thing I've learned from running branding and creative studios, like actually opening eyes to the clients to what is possible, because there's this sort of [00:11:10] linear unlimited idea of what we need is just something minimal.

we don't want to do too much and ambition is covered with a budget. You can do amazing things. You don't need 20, 30, 40 people on this [00:11:20] project. you can have five or whatever, and you can still achieve something nice. the smaller players can look a million bucks, if you do the right thing in the right way, with the right ambition.

[00:11:30] So what was the idea behind the name Rugged Edge? 

Max: the ragged edge we've always been in all our different forms. We've always been about trying to push things because we think [00:11:40] that doing things differently, getting uncomfortable, because doing things differently is uncomfortable and pushing yourselves towards the ragged edge of what's [00:11:50] possible is what creates change.

You can't do it without getting to that ragged edge. You can't do it by just through incremental change, through little nudges. You can't do it for change that [00:12:00] feels comfortable and easy because change that feels comfortable and easy is not going to drive meaningful impact. it's going to, it's going to create comfortable, easy shifts.

And [00:12:10] so everything we've tried to do with ragged edge, is about really creating something that is different, that's bold, not through any sort of creative ego or, anything like that, but because we know [00:12:20] that's what you have to do to make an impact.

Radim: When I think about Ragged Edge, it's almost at age now 17, it's like a cool teenager, right? It's like we grow and [00:12:30] develop 

 when you think about the experiences where we try to summarize and get into that Ragged Edge, It's an interesting way of, developing the formula that you've got now, mostly [00:12:40] that you look to work with change makers.

You work with people who actually try to do something different. As a teenager, obviously it takes you a while to actually, before you grow up, to actually get your ideas and your [00:12:50] principles and your purpose. actually as did branded agencies, we need to practice what we preach.

We actually need to. Be a bit branded. Like we need to actually stand for something. We need to have a bit of a unique, assets and look and [00:13:00] feel and actually be a brand almost ourselves. what is our brand of creativity? So how long before it all started crystallizing that ragged edge is ragged [00:13:10] edge, this is our purpose, this is our positioning because I don't think you had that when you were at Geraldton Jones back garden, sipping Grey Goose

Max: We had [00:13:20] principals and we had police, and a lot of that was around the way we do the work, the way we treat people. the people we work with. and we had a sense of what [00:13:30] we believed brands should and could be. and a lot of that again was this response to the sort of ephemeral nature of a lot of what I'd seen in the market and trying to build this stuff in [00:13:40] real depth. 

I guess there was a phase where we transitioned and really focused on brand.and we had to make that very deliberate decision. We had to really invest in few projects to show that we could do [00:13:50] that. and so we went from this like creative agency to a pure brand agency.and we were successful. and we did some great projects,that were really successful. but what [00:14:00] we started to realize over the period of maybe three or four years was that we were lacking, ironically, given the name, we were lacking that edge and, people saw [00:14:10] us as they're like, the nice guys, reliable, we would always do a great job. 

but we had no real, we weren't expressing through our positioning, a really [00:14:20] strong point of view, which actually we all felt. internally, but we didn't express it externally. So in about, I think, around 2018,we applied our own process to [00:14:30] ourselves. And, the outward expression of what you see now from Ragged Edge is a consequence of that.

 And honestly, it was absolutely revelatory. It was like the biggest, [00:14:40] inflection point for us as an agency where we went from an agency that did great work, to an agency where people really understood what we thought, what we believed, and where we started to [00:14:50] attract the right people.

Like minded clients. We started to bring together people that really believe the same things that we did. And obviously that just acted as a sort of force multiplier on the work itself.

Radim: [00:15:00] from a mechanical how would you describe it to, let's say. Your mum, like mostly what did you do? Because you said you, we applied our process to ourselves. So [00:15:10] was it messaging? Was it outreach? what did you actually do that created that shift?

Max: we did what we do with every client, which is, we did our own kind [00:15:20] of immersion where we spoke to a bunch of people internally and externally. and a period of like real self analysis, and self reflection was a bit like therapy, isn't it? [00:15:30] and then, we built brand strategy, and at the time, yeah, that was all about this idea of working with people who care less about what is and more about what could be, that we define them as [00:15:40] change makers, and then applying that point of view of,it takes bravery and conviction to create work that's really going to drive change.

 And so that [00:15:50] was a strategy process that we went through exactly as we would do with our clients, where we started to articulate who we were and how we were different. and I think part of the success of it was we tried to [00:16:00] make it as collaborative as we could. and we tried to keep it as open as possible, you know, engage the team.

cause at the time, I guess we were probably 30, 35 people, something around that. [00:16:10] So there's a lot of people to make sure we took on the journey.and that was, yeah, really hugely impactful.

Radim: I like it. It sounds very democratic. It sounds obviously, what do we stand for? What do we want to be like, be [00:16:20] part of the project? Because. Sometimes on this podcast, I speak to people who've gone on their own. And they,sometimes have regrets about okay, have I done the right thing?

Am I doing this thing? and sometimes you get people [00:16:30] saying okay, I stayed in the company for the security of, for, the work or whatever, it's basically like people see themselves in employment as security. Whereas if you're in, as just a number in a company and you don't have a [00:16:40] voice.

Why would you be there? if you're trying to achieve something with your life, with your creativity, with your career, you want to be in a place that actually encourages this kind of process. So it sounds amazing that, you did [00:16:50] exactly, you practice exactly what you preach.

And I think through conversations with people who do positioning for agencies and stuff,People just show up. Okay. This is our website. This is our [00:17:00] stuff. Come find us. And I think, we no longer can just hide behind the work, can no longer hope that someone will just find your website and find, okay, I really like this [00:17:10] project.

Let's do something like this for ourselves. as you said, like, when you open it, when you actually tell people, What it can be, you know what it is, but what it can be that'swhat I was saying earlier. Like you, you show clients what's the [00:17:20] possibilities, like you actually, you take 'em on your journey and you mentioned in your talk at of that, it's getting clients on your side and getting, actually being part as one rather than us [00:17:30] and them trying to fight it out in trenches and hoping that something good will come out , which never really does. 

the strategy sounds very interesting.

Max: Yeah, I thinkthere's a [00:17:40] tension at the heart of what we do, which we describe as it's like a conviction and collaboration or,strong opinions loosely held. So we, as an [00:17:50] agency, we have to come with a point of view and a belief in what's right and we have to express that. But, essentially, a brand is an idea that people hold in their minds, [00:18:00] andessentially, it is all about belief. it's no good just us believing in that. that are going to embody the band, that are going to bring it to life, that are going to use it, whether that's internally, whether [00:18:10] that's externally, they have to believe it too.

And so,yes, we have to come with this conviction, but also we need to make sure that the process is collaborative and the people that are going to [00:18:20] use the brand and live the brand every day, really believe it so that they can transmit that belief to clients, to customers,to the end user.and that is really important, but it's a hard balance [00:18:30] to strike.

Radim: how do you find change makers? Do they find you? Do you find them? Because. it feels like the world has woken up with the startup revolution that we've seen in the last couple of [00:18:40] decades that, when I was in my early twenties, around 2000, I'd never heard of any startups.

And all of a sudden by 2015, every, everything was a startup. Everyone was a startup. And [00:18:50] not everyone the right idea, but then that just shows the multiplication of. Of the messages through the internet, like how everything becomes more ubiquitous, much faster [00:19:00] than to what it did in the past.

 But changemakers, not many people even see themselves as changemakers. So how do you find them? How do they find you? How do you make that connection? [00:19:10] Because obviously free of compound effect or people will come, obviously you will become more known for this, but to have a strategy to say, okay, this is what we stand for.

Where's the work? How'd you [00:19:20] get it?

Max: one thing that we had done, and the benefit of having been while when we did this was that we had built a reputation. And so we did have people coming to [00:19:30] us, and we did have lots of, like inbound inquiries, and they might come from, people hearing about us on, the Internet or whatever through our work, or actually more commonly, it [00:19:40] was people who had worked with people we'd worked with before and recommendations and that type of thing.

 So we had that base.and then. What we did when we launched the change [00:19:50] makers strategy is we were very single minded and very explicit about it. And we tried to be very clear about this is what we're looking for a client. And this is [00:20:00] what it's going to take to work with this.

This is what you're going to need to be brave. You're going to need to be bold. You're going to need to have an open mind. You're going to need to have some of that conviction. And so what that did was it [00:20:10] just self selected, and it meant that the people that, were excited by that, came to us, and the people that weren't didn't.

So suddenly we changed the people that [00:20:20] were approaching us. and certainly over the course of one or two conversations, it was, it always became very clear, very quickly, like who were going to be right and who was going to get something out of working with us and who perhaps [00:20:30] might want a different approach.

Radim: At that point when you do this, did you ever have a point of worry that you're leaving money on the table because You might sell out to the [00:20:40] devil, make more money and have clear runway, more security, or do you ever doubt yourself? Like, well, you don't doubt yourself now because it's working, but [00:20:50] when you'd made that change from creative studio to a branding studio, then to a branding studio with a purpose and mission and vision and strategy.

Were there moments where like,we need to almost manufacture [00:21:00] people with ambition because, as you know, some businesses are started for pure profit and some are started for pure passion and believe and vision, but somewhere in between is profitability and [00:21:10] vision and all of that sort of Venn diagram meet somewhere.

 So did you fear that sort of niching? would make you potentially less profitable, or did you [00:21:20] finally feel like, the market is saturated if you look and sound like everybody else and you've been on a purposeful mission not to sound like everybody else?

Max: there's definitely some fear there. and [00:21:30] like to slightly contradict you, there's still that fear now, you still have doubt. I think everybody who runs a business, especially in the environment that we find ourselves at the moment,you're constantly [00:21:40] questioning.

Max: but to answer the question, yeah, definitely. You'd be crazy not to be scared, and we had seen through the work that we'd done with our clients, and everything we [00:21:50] knew and understood about the science of branding, the way it works, is that, number one strategy is about choices.

It's about choosing what not to do and what not to be just as much as it is, what to do. And [00:22:00] by positioning yourself for someone who will really love you and be really excited by what you're going to, do, be much more likely, to attract that person. And so, [00:22:10] The theory that was, yes, we would rule ourselves out of quite a lot of people, but that's okay because we would be much more likely to win the work that we were really good at and really [00:22:20] well suited to.

And so that would help us deliver better work, which would then have a, a compounding effect as well. So it was scary. And turning down clients is to [00:22:30] this day, like we, we do turn down quite a lot.you always think, fuck,what are we doing? but I think it's the right thing to do.

Radim: I appreciate your honesty because you said it's still, it still feels [00:22:40] scary, like on the outside, you're thinking it's ragged edge. Stuff looks good, there's people they're hiring and then things are happening, but it proves the [00:22:50] point that. nothing's ever a hundred percent, like we, we've made these sort of romantic ideas.

Like the ideal is of course, we've got a company, obviously everything looks good. there's a new case study [00:23:00] every now and then, like every couple of months or whatever, and they are getting bigger, sure. It must be all fine. But when you say we turn pro, no projects down, you're thinking.

Obviously [00:23:10] in a crazy mind be like, what are you doing? Like this, just hire more people. you get studios who are always open. They always take on more work. They always.hire more people, outsource stuff [00:23:20] because, profit. Why not? Whereas, doubling down on your purpose and your integrity pays in the long run, because I believe you had a quote by, Bill [00:23:30] Bernbach.

 if you stand for something, you'll have people who go with you and against you. If you stand for nothing, you'll have no one either side.

It's definitely paraphrasing that quote, [00:23:40] but it takes time, bravery and growth and patience to actually stand for something because it's so easy to say, just like you did at the beginning, travel [00:23:50] website. Why not? No nightclub. Why not? I'll be earning with my mortgage paid.

Of course it is, So it's more like, how would you double down on who you want to be? Because that feels really [00:24:00] scary to say. That's what we want, that's what we are, that's what we want to be. And this is the message we're going to push out because it's always been like with branding, it's like you find [00:24:10] people to get married with, you get this first meeting, like everyone pretends to be amazing.

Can you do this? Of course we can do this. Are we going to have freedom and all the budget? Of course you're going to have that. it's just this sort of [00:24:20] misty, foggy impression of each other. And then you get closer, closer to that sort of collaboration or let's call it, the full relationship.

Radim: things crystallize that, the people who say who can do everything, [00:24:30] can't do everything. The people who said, they're going to have all the budget and give you all the freedom, can't do this. And it's just like,it's this sort of mixture of like. When you have a clear idea of who you are, [00:24:40] it's just so much easier to actually shorten and cut out the bullshit.

And we're like, this is what we can do for you because you are compatible rather than, should we mold our process or should we change [00:24:50] this? And I can see that, everyone's been guilty of it upon a time we just try to please people only to find ourselves going, I should have done something different. 

Max: it's hard, isn't it. one thing I'm [00:25:00] always like careful to check myself on is obviously, we went through a period where we weren't particularly selective, as we talked about. And so I think it's easy to talk from this point of, we've been around a while, [00:25:10] we've had that luxury of building up this reputation.

And so we are able now to be a bit selective, but it wasn't always like that. one thing I've learned is that,If you pick the right clients and the [00:25:20] clients are going to work for you, the work will be better. The process will be better. The work's more likely to be profitable and, stick to the timelines and the project plan and all that things.

Cause everyone's on the same page. [00:25:30] if you pick a client that doesn't believe in the same things that you do, doesn't have the same values, doesn't have the same principles, more often than not, you're making problems for yourself and, either [00:25:40] the project's going to go wrong.

Because you don't believe in the same things,it might not be very profitable. it might not be very good work that you can't talk about and share with anybody else, or you might [00:25:50] not get paid at the end of it. and so for us, we have been lucky to be able to make these choices, but being able to make those choices like has this weird compounding effect where, it [00:26:00] just helps all the subsequent choices be the right ones.

Radim: I just feel that with the sort of maturity of the branding or the modern branding studios like yours,we've learned what the [00:26:10] possibilities can be because you see these debates saying, Oh, designers are guilty of enabling, devil companies, creating X, Y, Z. I'm like, designers are just [00:26:20] enablers, like when you set yourself on the path of working with certain clients.

You're giving yourself more of a sort of status and actually showing how things can be done that you [00:26:30] don't have to feel guilt, necessarily you're not killing anyone with your product. you're not destroying the planet necessarily. Like it's that you can do better.

And I'm just, of course, it is impossible [00:26:40] everyone to be like this because unfortunately we have to have the balance, but I really like that. The path that you set yourself upon, it's a lot more rewarding, actually more clear, actually [00:26:50] showcases the future of a branding agency could be, because as you say, it will always be scary.

when you make it to 25, 30 years, that situation must still be the same. But I think [00:27:00] there's something that, that uncertainty pushes us forward because if it was easy. Why bother? if we just churn stuff out, it looks the same, that doesn't necessarily intrigue anyone.

What's the [00:27:10] point? of course, again, there's an agency for that somewhere else, but like,if you set yourself almost on the sidelines of the mainstream, then, it's never going to be plain [00:27:20] sailing. we say sunshine and ice cream, but I think there's a great reward in this.

Max: comfort and creativity aren't necessarily great bedfellows, I think. there has to be a degree of [00:27:30] discomfort create anything interesting, and to do. work that's going to cut through. and so I think, that mindset is annoyingly quite important.

Radim: I'm going to mention two things. one [00:27:40] we've got in common and one we don't have in common. So one thing we've got in common is fear of conformity.

Radim: I wrote in one of my first books, it was fear of conformity because I was one of, I was [00:27:50] always the prototype of a graphic designer.

And it was just like. Wanted to be on the sidelines just because I never really liked things that were popular. 

 With Conformity, obviously you talked about [00:28:00] how technology and algorithms and society play together. And the fact that. We have opened all these floodgates. We've got fewer gatekeepers everywhere, [00:28:10] but we've got more of the same, more than we've had any time before.

 So with your conformity and sort of the fear of it, like how do you mold it in your work that sort of [00:28:20] influences and informs your processes?

Max: Yeah, I think we're just in such a weird time at the moment and it is like everything is changing all at once. [00:28:30] but it is what the impact of that and it's AI and it's algorithms and it's like general, I think, just like apathy towards brands as well. It means everything seems to just be converging on [00:28:40] the same and everyone, everything looks the same.

everything sounds the same. and nothing really stands out anymore because it's just so easy. Like you talked about earlier with your bento boxes and stuff, it's [00:28:50] so easy to do something serviceable.but it's weirdly really hard to do something different. And so our mindset is that in order to stand out, in order to get noticed, in [00:29:00] order to get remembered, It has to be meaningfully different, and so we are constantly pushing ourselves and it's hard and it's tiring and draining because, [00:29:10] we maybe make life harder for ourselves than we maybe could do, we don't want the style. We work every project. We want to create new visual languages, new ways of expressing [00:29:20] ourselves verbally, and we want to create new stuff.and that is, is hard. It's really hard. If it's easy, I guess everyone would be doing it. so it's a mindset here, and a challenge we set ourselves [00:29:30] every time, who definitely don't take the easy route, but I think hopefully, the results are worth that.

Radim: You mentioned before that you wanted to create a branding agency that puts focus on the [00:29:40] verbal, like verbal branding agency, like that is based around the words and the messaging and. You also talk about how you put ideas over [00:29:50] aesthetics,

 with everything that you've done and I feel how others catch up. If you were to do sort of the lineup of projects by different companies and you put them up, and that's what you call it, like a police lineup, like who's, [00:30:00] which one Sometimes we can find ourselves that the trends Because they, they travel so much faster and people are magpies, it's the only thing they see, [00:30:10] as you said, you don't always make it easy because you try it much harder, but in that lineup, you can have, five 3D studios and you don't know which one's which because everyone's catching up, you can have five [00:30:20] branding projects.

It could be, they look like they might be by five different agencies, but they can all look the same. Obviously with everything that you said so far, obviously the projection of the personality and the purpose [00:30:30] and the drive and strive, which makes the book unique, but it can sometimes be almost hard to be seen or recognized for something which could be misunderstood or mistaken by [00:30:40] work of different agencies.

So when it comes to the verbal, Let's focus on that for a second. How much does that separate you and how much does the focus [00:30:50] feel different and how do your clients respond to it? Because not every client. we can understand that right from the off. So like, how do you even educate people about that?

The [00:31:00] messaging is really important.

Max: Two reasons, really. One, of course, is language is how we communicate. if I asked you to describe a brand, you'd use [00:31:10] words.language is fundamental,to branding. for whatever reasons, and we could probably talk about those all day. It's been, like, it's weirdly underappreciated and [00:31:20] underrated.so it's about the language itself and about making sure that this is a brand that's going to show up verbally in just as distinctive a way, as it will do visually. Also, I think arguably [00:31:30] more important than that, what we learned and going back to that Bill Burnback quote about,what he did was he put writers and designers together because he realized, that, That [00:31:40] created richer ideas.

If you put two designers together, you get a design idea. If you put a writer and a designer together, you'd get a big, rich idea that can transcend the [00:31:50] discipline and the craft. of course, that's what a brand needs to be. It needs to transcend, design. those two things, writing in its own way is very important, I think when you just talk to people about that, [00:32:00] they understand that intuitively.

 But also, Just as crucially, like bringing the two disciplines together gives you richer ideas as a proper brand rather than just a visual [00:32:10] identity. Clients tend to get that. And if they don't, then if they're not fully convinced, then when they first see the creative work and combination of the writers and [00:32:20] designers presenting the work to them and the strategies, that's when the penny drops and they get it.

and you, we always hear, Oh my God, like the copy of the tone of voice. We weren't expecting that. We came for a logo, but then [00:32:30] we've got all this stuff as well. you see it almost every time it's mad, but like quite rewarding.

Radim: It's about showing possibilities, isn't it? Like we came for one thing, ended up with something [00:32:40] that we didn't know even we needed. I think that part of actually enlightening people, like this is how things work. Because as you said, to describe a brand.

you've got these words that [00:32:50] describe the action, the notion, the aspiration. With your background, is there anything that pointed you towards. linguistic part of a branding. where did it come from? 

I think I've always [00:33:00] loved writing, both the practice of it, and obviously just like reading stuff. but I studied philosophy. I had a philosophy degree, which is quite, quite a [00:33:10] weird choice in lots of different ways. but I think the one thing that taught me was the power of language to make an argument.

Max: And to convince the power of language [00:33:20] and the choicefulness of the words you use and how impactful that can be in getting someone to believe something. and I really believe that is quite fundamental to like how I think [00:33:30] about lots of things now, but particularly about, brands. it seems a weird connection, but like in philosophy, all you were doing is you were writing arguments.

and in branding, that's what you're doing, as well through [00:33:40] the strategy and then, through the external application.

Radim: Love that, Max. I absolutely love that. And then we got to the point I found out it was a philosophy degree because I love a quote by Ken [00:33:50] Robinson. I think it's from one of his talks when he was talking about a parent who's speaking to their child. They're like, what do you want to do? Well, I want to study philosophy.

 and the parent said, As far [00:34:00] as I know, none of the big philosophy companies are hiring right now. Why do you want to do that? But then the person went to study history. So it was philosophy and history [00:34:10] ended up being our dealer, being working for the, one of the biggest, auction houses.

And pretty much if there's a sort of overarching theme here, it's cumulative effect because we can be so bogged down living in the [00:34:20] moment. okay, What do I need to do right now today? like how can I produce this thing quicker, faster?

You see amazing things by many different, I don't know, branding [00:34:30] agencies, creators, designers, illustrators. You're like, deep breath. Like I need to make today really worth it. Whereas it is the compounding effect. Obviously it's the bid by bid that sort of gives us [00:34:40] the little nuggets of information that, open possibilities, so Ragged Edge wouldn't be Ragged Edge if it wasn't for your, degree.

And I think that's a beautiful piece of [00:34:50] information that I'm glad I know, because now it makes even more sense when you say it's idea over aesthetics. I'm a big fan 

of your work for [00:35:00] Papier, really speaks to me. I like what you've done with it because before I didn't really get it.

With your rebrand, I got it. We've done more information from your talk. I get it even more. It's it's the [00:35:10] possibility of ideas and it encompasses of what you do. And I don't know how Papier do it, but they've got amazing covers. everything is in a way, just [00:35:20] different, like transcendingly different.

And I have to be honest that. I was, when I was working on Mindful Creative and Creativity for Sale, I was a little bit stuck. was a whole new sort of direction for [00:35:30] my books. And it was actually some work from Papier, like some of their covers that actually inspired, some of the ideas and it's ended up completely somewhere different, 

now I can see the [00:35:40] connection. So with the Papier being an example,for the idea that sort of centers the universe of the rebrand, what did you guys do with Papier?

And how does it manifest [00:35:50] with other projects?

yeah, I mean, first of all, like Pappy, amazing business and like the leadership there from table. everything they're doing is like [00:36:00] unreal. They're so good. And they were such an amazing client, to work with. It was just one of those.people who care less about what is more about what could be that is Tamor and his team, to a T [00:36:10] and the success they're having now is, they're, they're going big in the U S now they've gone into retail.

Max: Like it's really cool to see, in terms of the idea. So that came from a, like a [00:36:20] genuine,customer insight. And what we spoke to a bunch of people in the U S and the UK, about Stationery and their relationship to Stationery. We're expecting people to like, to say that like [00:36:30] you, the reason why they chose it was because they just loved the beautiful covers.that's what we're expecting, but it's not what we heard. When they spoke about Stationery and they spoke about the process of choosing it, [00:36:40] what they thought about it was What they tended to speak about was how they were almost like inviting possibility into their lives. The act of buying a notebook, buying a planner was a promise to themselves to go out and do [00:36:50] something, to go out and create some sort of transformation, big or small.it was like magic. These things, these, notebooks and things have magic inside them. And so [00:37:00] that was the strategy. we had this idea like, invite magic. And then the creative idea that came, that I showed in my talk was that picture of that,like emporium of magic. [00:37:10] And so visually how we brought that to life from the strategy was we found this image of this like emporium full of all these kinds of really rich, magical things, and that became the starting point for the [00:37:20] visual and verbal identity for the brand.

Radim: With the system, when it came out, it was like, it spoke to my soul it's homely, you know, and I was, I connect with things in that way because There's a [00:37:30] reason why I still invest money in paperbacks because it's the tactile thing. And it was like, how do you redesign and how do you re engineer something that's been around for hundreds of years?

And how do you still try to make it [00:37:40] exciting? visually and content wise, and he tries to find inspiration, how we can bring something new because another quote I'm going to drop in is from Seth Godin. It's like a brain is a [00:37:50] lazy piece of meat. it needs to be re reawoken by new ideas because when we had an Autopilot, You don't get excited by anything. this quote by Seth,is about like, how do [00:38:00] we reinvigorate ideas? Like, how do we actually inspire people? Because it's the same, same, same will never produce anything exciting. So when Papier came, instantly recognized it. [00:38:10] What I find intriguing about your design system is that you never go heavy on like the details when you present the case study.

 it's almost like a [00:38:20] Michelin star meal when people say I want to know more. Like you don't justify your type choices. You don't justify your color choices. This is the messaging and this is the photography and this is some of the stuff [00:38:30] and that's enough. And I really like the style of photography that now I know why that's sort of the magic emporium happens.

But how do you even go [00:38:40] about it creating those environments? Because again, it didn't look like anything I've seen before. Do you work with collaborators? Do you engineer it? is it a hard process to do and how [00:38:50] much of a client is involved too? 

Max: first of all, thank you for that observation around the, how we talk about the work. I think, you know, obviously design is quite rightly in it and the details are very important. [00:39:00] I have to get the details right. And people notice if you don't get the details right, but like real people are less interested in, name of the typeface that you chose.

and I think what's [00:39:10] more relevant to us and what matters to us is the idea and what it communicates. with everything that we do, the choice comes down to how best to communicate the [00:39:20] idea? How do we do that through type? How do we do that through color?

 How do we do it through illustration? How do we do it through motion, through language, and through photography in the case of the art direction, obviously we have, in [00:39:30] Papier, there are a number of different ways. They needed to show up photographically. there was obviously like more lifestyle stuff, more product stuff that needs to be shown in a studio.

 And we needed to create a language that could [00:39:40] functionally do all that stuff, but that could then, also communicate the idea. So that's quite a tight brief. And then obviously, we try and express the [00:39:50] idea first, and then look for references that might help us express that idea.

 Often, photography is so hard because easier now because of AI. at the time it's time we were doing [00:40:00] Papier, there's no such thing as mid journey. And so you could show someone a photograph and say, this is what we're aiming for. That's what we think we should try and do. But the subject matter is going to be completely different.

The [00:40:10] composition is going to be completely different. And all I really want you to see here is the lighting or something, or the way the shadow is in play with the subject or something like that. And so It's really hard because what you're looking [00:40:20] for often doesn't exist.and so there's a real skill in trying to help the client understand when you're looking at this this reference photograph, this is what is important in this.

And this is what you just need to [00:40:30] completely disregard, which is really hard. Obviously AI changes that a bit because you can create stuff and you can show people stuff that didn't previously exist. 

Radim: how much of AI [00:40:40] or mid journey do you use in your process? Because I'm sure it doesn't feature any in the outcome, but in the process and validation, how much of that do you use and have you embraced it or [00:40:50] sounds like you have?

Max: Yeah, I thinklike probably most agencies, we're using it as a tool, and an important tool at that. And there's some things it's really good at. [00:41:00] And some things it's perhaps not so good at. I think we're all still figuring that out. and of course that's changing all the time. 

 whether that's in the strategy process, whether in the creative process, whether [00:41:10] it's in creating like visual concepts and things. not too much of that has made it into the final execution. Obviously it's not quite, but some has.and, I think [00:41:20] as creative people.

Yeah, we just have to be open to embracing it and using it in, in, in clever and innovative ways. And the one thing I've noticed, and it's, to [00:41:30] me, this is really important is like you ask a designer to create an AI image and you ask a non designer to create an AI image and the designer creating the AI image is [00:41:40] going to be, is you're going to end up with a much better image, much more interesting image, much better composed that is important to remember. 

Radim: 

Yeah, it's 

actually, you've got a good point there. Cause I've seen when you think about AI [00:41:50] and what it produces, it's basically a tombola, like basically have an extra mind, or let's say a machine in this case, who produces what we used to produce in the past [00:42:00] anyway.

Like we've been scamping stuff in Photoshop for decades, we create these things, like we we use other people's resources, we use stuff you find on the internet, you copy together I don't know [00:42:10] what was, I'm in an arena about Oh, don't use my stuff, like it was there out there anyway. And now we go Hey, I don't touch my stuff. Obviously I think the host has bought it anyway. Like [00:42:20] currently when we record this, there's lots of people moving to something called Cara. And they're like, this is my message about, don't touch my stuff. They're like, I'm sure they've already scraped it a million [00:42:30] times over.

I don't want to be cynical, but. If that's our worry, that we can be replaced or, data scraped or whatever, then are we really creating stuff that is [00:42:40] worthy and this,might be maybe unpopular opinion, but. It also might be a slightly mature opinion of seeing how things work because when you're creating something as a freelancer, creative, an [00:42:50] employee, you're passionate, but you're also quite anxious about it working because you don't have that many sort of data, life points about how things can work and how can they be.

I think [00:43:00] in our cases, we've been around a couple of times around the block,okay, if this was to derail us so quickly, then we might have not been doing something really well don't be worried [00:43:10] about AI, be worried about people using AI, like that's the key, like it's a tool,if you want to be adding up, 1, 375 by 3, 000, whatever calculators much [00:43:20] faster and no one's going to blame you for using a calculator if you want to get to your process faster.

then use it because it's there and it's the tool and this is, there's, that's where things are moving. So I'm glad I [00:43:30] asked, but what you mentioned, I think just a second ago, when you talked about Papier and the case study that normal people don't particularly care about what 

font you chose and what color you chose and stuff. It's [00:43:40] almost likeputting your focus on the right mindset, but if you're going to show aspiration, like you talk about Papier photography like that, it's not only aspiration photography for the product, but [00:43:50] actually it shows the world that, it's kind of transcending.

And what kind of, what it brings me in a sort of complicated segway is it's awards. you got your case studies, you got your awards 

[00:44:00] and you got your clients. I've got an analogy in my book about awards, which is about carry houses. 

You go to your local carry house and they've got like a wall with[00:44:10] 50 awards. Fuck knows what these awards are for, Why'd you go to the carry house? Because the food tastes good. Whoever cares if you've been in Guilford Gazette or whatever,

it doesn't [00:44:20] matter. How do you find the connection between awards and clients and the relevance of awards to actually being part of your, sort of, career?

[00:44:30] portfolio. Does it change any perception? does it help you in work?

Max: I have a complicated relationship with awards. I think probably like most of the design community.I [00:44:40] think, I don't know if we've ever won a project because we've won and won awards, but I do think that they add a proof point and they add some credibility, and it's additional [00:44:50] reassurance, isn't it?

Okay. this company is being regularly receiving awards. Therefore they must be.one of the, the best and we can trust them and we're going to get a great result.really for us, we don't [00:45:00] enter willy nilly, there's a few award schemes that we think are important because they're a good bellwether for us about how our work is perceived and [00:45:10] like D& AD, for example, like we put quite a lot of effort into that.

We do care about that, but I think it's, if I'm really honest, I think it's because. It's a really good test of [00:45:20] like, how good is our work? Really? Like we can tell ourselves that our work's like best in the world, but let's actually put it up against the best in the world and see how people respond to it.

And sometimes that [00:45:30] can be quite sobering if I'm honest. but it's really helpful and it teaches us like, you know, you put something up for an award and you don't win anything, you'd have to ask yourself, why, did you tell the story [00:45:40] in the best way? Did you communicate the idea in the best way?

Did they get it? it's another data point, I think. andyeah, we do value them, but I'm not totally sure that they're, [00:45:50] winning awards isn't necessarily the most effective way of getting new business, for example.

Radim: do you reckon awards as a system is potentially a bit broken 

Max: you get your, a [00:46:00] like minded source.

Radim: You get obviously our peers to be judging our work and I'm thinking, do we need to actually just get a thousand people off the street, a thousand [00:46:10] consumers and say, what did you actually like, what did you choose? 

it's nice to have that reassurance that you're doing something right, because people who've got really high standards, maybe way too high, because they now, [00:46:20] obviously, are judges, Are very harsh to the work because something that you created could have changed someone's life.

Someone's can discovered a brand like the Story on the [00:46:30] ground is totally different to a room of judges that have just been put together and you need everyone to say yes. Obviously, if someone's got a bad day they might not say yes to it. [00:46:40] Of course, like winning something this prestigious, obviously like,it's hard, but I don't always feel like that the work that's winning and the work that's not winning, always works because it just goes through the [00:46:50] filter. One word answer is it broken?

Yes. Do we need it? Yes. Because obviously it shows as a studio that you've got ambition, obviously like you put yourself up for something and you want it because [00:47:00] we want to have that sort of feedback. Not only from, real world, but from customers and brands and, Consumers, but also from peers.

 So the one thing that [00:47:10] we don't have in common is the 2012 Olympics logo. So I made a note from your talk because I somehow 

mysteriously 

loved it 

I [00:47:20] was like, when it came out and I saw the backlash, because maybe it was my.

That aloofness, like being on the sidelines, like basically everyone's machine gunning the snow, the sun, [00:47:30] and there's the Bart Simpson and whatever. I'm like, I like it. It's different, but not you at first.

Max: I'm not a first. Yeah. And I think, like respect that I'm, I'm [00:47:40] embarrassed about my reaction to that as I've been very vocal about. and yeah, I a hundred percent agree with you. I think it's an amazing piece of work.and it stands the test of time, [00:47:50] which not very many brands do. Respect.

at the time it's hard to have that opinion because there was such a cacophony of loathing, wasn't there, including for people like me.

 [00:48:00] And I'm into like the bravery and the conviction that you would have had to say, actually, this is why it's good. And I think we need more of that. And I try now to be more like that, to be more like [00:48:10] you.

Radim: Oh, you don't have to, but I think what it is, it's, it thrived. the idea on its own, as you said in your talk, it was the, it's taken time to mature. It was like a [00:48:20] single idea. It just needs to flourish. It needs time, no time in the sun for others to see, to see how it's growing.

And I,think, There was quite a few different studios doing quite a few different things with the system. And [00:48:30] it's, as you said, like how many Olympic logos do you remember? You remember 1968, Mexico. And you remember 2012 because Paris,[00:48:40] Nagano, you know, he's just it just comes and goes.

So I think it was a great sort of testament and statement of intent of okay, this is country that. In a way [00:48:50] leads design, and these sort of visual aesthetics and then bravery and creative fields to create something like that. And I think. I guess we've got responsibility in a way of likewhat we [00:49:00] do with our work to actually show people what's possible because I've written a few things from our conversation down, but conviction and collaboration, I think is what stands out from what you do and how you [00:49:10] do it and where you head in.

And, I'm really thankful that, a studio like yours pushing forward, don't always make it easy for yourselves, live on the verge of fear, [00:49:20] uncertainty, but that kind of makes it exciting. where's the future of Ragged Edge? Is there another sort of strategy refresh or another vision or plan for now?

[00:49:30] there is. so we talked about the last refresh that we did as being like Ragged Edge version two. we're currently, in the. Concept phase, we've done the strategy [00:49:40] and we're currently in the concept phase of Ragged Edge v3, so like bringing an evolved strategy and positioning to life and it's not as dramatic a change because I don't think it needs to be.

Max: but the [00:49:50] world has changed quite dramatically,the stuff that we've been talking about AI and things like that since, we did the rebrand in 2018 through to 2020. So we're doing [00:50:00] it again.and like any internal studio work, it takes 10 times as long, 10 times as painful, 10 times as emotional, 10 times as many like arguments over [00:50:10] stuff.

But I think, yeah, we'll get there,

Radim: sounds incredible. Is there. Anything and anyone you wish you had created or it was your client, is there anything [00:50:20] that is the pinnacle, do you have to have that sort of project or it's just, you know what, it comes as it comes.

Max: what is that sort of moonshot that you know you wish to take?

So it's a difficult one [00:50:30] because the brands that we want to create don't exist in the way we want them to exist at the moment. obviously everyone wants to work with iconic brands. And by the way, my favorite [00:50:40] one, my one, I'm quite jealous of the work that just came out, is Lego.

 I just love like the brand Lego. Cause I just can't believe that something that was, what my favorite thing when I [00:50:50] was. a long time ago, it's still relevant now. I think it's amazing what they've done. Amazing. And I just think as a brand that can have that stretch and [00:51:00] that longevity is absolutely unreal, but in terms of the brands of the future that we want to create.

They would be the ones that you don't know about yet and you maybe don't care about yet and we want to make you [00:51:10] care about them, but we want to do that real scale.global scale and have as big of an impact as we possibly can.

Radim: I like that answer because it virtually [00:51:20] re emphasizes of everything that you talked about for the last hour. Like it's creating things that don't exist and showing people what possibilities are. Max, thank you very much for your time today. And I [00:51:30] think there's a lot to take from this conversation because. You've been honest, you've shown how you guys work and actually what it takes to be someone of authority and someone of [00:51:40] leadership that, pushes the future in a way it should be, because we can all tell ourselves how ambitious we are.

We've got ambitious clients, we've got this and that, but that makes us only sound the same. It's [00:51:50] just like, how do you actually put yourself on the sidelines and say, you know what, there's a space for us. We can do this and we can do that really well. So it becomes something that people will gravitate. yeah, thank [00:52:00] you for your time.

Max: Thank you. I really enjoyed it. It's lovely to, spend the morning chatting about this stuff. We could talk about it all day. Couldn't we?

Radim: We could do, yeah. maybe we should do it again in some, sometime in the future. when [00:52:10] Ranked Edge 3. 0 comes out,

Radim Malinic: Thank you for listening to this episode of Creativity for Sale podcast. The [00:52:20] show was produced and presented by me, Radim Malinic. Editing and audio production was masterfully done by 

Neil mackay,. from 7 million Bikes Podcasts, 

Theme music was written [00:52:30] and produced by Robert Summerfield. If you enjoyed this episode and would like to support the podcast, please subscribe and leave a rating or review.

To get your own action plan on how to [00:52:40] start and grow a life changing creative business. You can get a copy of the Creativity for Sale book via the links in show notes. burning, and until next [00:52:50] time, I'm Radim Malinich, your guide through this exploration of passion, creativity, innovation, and the boundless potential within us all. [00:53:00] [00:53:10]