"Life has a deadline. It fuels my creativity. Now I've realised that and that stress is like, could be stress that is debilitating or it could be stress that is energising and it's the fire that gets you going." - GeGemma O'Brien
In this episode, internationally renowned designer and artist Gemma O'Brien shares her journey from law student to celebrated typographer and muralist. Gemma discusses the evolution of her creative process, the impact of travel on her work, and how she navigates the challenges of a fast-paced creative career. She opens up about burnout, the importance of patience, and her unique concept of being an "ultra artist." Gemma also reveals her plans to study neuroaesthetics, demonstrating her commitment to continuous growth and exploration in her field.
Takeaways
Mindful Creative: How to understand and deal with the highs and lows of creative life, career and business
Paperback and Kindle > https://amzn.to/4biTwFc
Free audiobook (with Audible trial) > https://geni.us/free-audiobook
Signed books https://novemberuniverse.co.uk
Lux Coffee Co. https://luxcoffee.co.uk/ (Use: PODCAST for 15% off)
November Universe https://novemberuniverse.co.uk (Use: PODCAST for 10% off)
Gemma O'Brien: [00:00:00] Life has a deadline. it fuels my creativity. Now I've realized that and that stress is like, could be stress that is debilitating or it could be stress that is energizing and it's the fire that gets you going.
So it's really like how you perceive it and how you use it. And if you think it's a worthy cause. I also think sometimes that procrastination, Yeah. can actually be, this is just a theory, but maybe an internal sense of knowing how long something actually takes. Like knowing how long you could achieve a result within, and that you delay until that much time is left.
USBPre2-2: Welcome to mindful creative podcast. A show about understanding how to deal with the highs and lows of creative lives. [00:01:00] My name is Ryan Martin edge and creativity changed my life by also nearly killed me. In the season inspired by my book of the same title. I am talking to some of the most celebrated figures in a creative industry. In our candid conversations, my guests share their experiences and how they overcame their challenges and struggles. How they learn to grow as creatives. A creative career in a 21st century can be overwhelming. I wanted to capture these honest and transparent conversations that might help you find that guiding light in your career.
Thank you for joining me on this episode and taking the first or next step towards regaining control of your creative life. You ready?
My guest today is an international renowned designer and artist. She's known for her bold graphics, illustrative lettering, and murals. Her work's been commissioned by Apple, Nike, Google, and is held in the permanent collection of the [00:02:00] Copper Humid Smithsonian Design Museum in New York City.outside her commercial design work, she explores language, nature, and the human experience for her art practice.
It's my pleasure to introduce Gemma O'Brien.
Radim Malinic: Hi Gemma, how are you doing today?
Gemma O'Brien: I'm good.
Radim Malinic: for those who may have never heard of you, which I think is impossible, would you introduce yourself please?
Gemma O'Brien: Sure. So my name is Gemma O'Brien and I'm an artist, designer, illustrator from Sydney, Australia. And I've been working across, commercial work and contemporary art for the last 10 years or more.From everything from large scale installations for brands like Tiffany Co and Nike, editorial stuff, book covers, speaking workshops, anything type illustration and painting.
Radim Malinic: I mean, you sound definitely like you've been exploring creativity for what it [00:03:00] is, not leaving anything unturned. I know that originally you were going to be. studying to be a lawyer, and you dropped out,
you find your way into typography for various sort of, eternal curiosity pursuits.
as a man, I find the world of typography and typographers very intimidating.
So as a,female, how did you find that world? Because you were dropped into it, right very start and it wasn't always plain sailing.
How did you find it?
Gemma O'Brien: Well, I think your gut instinct is correct about the feeling of the world of typography. The funny thing is when I think back now to that time, when I first got interested in typography, I was actually interested in it by noticing, street signs and hand painted signs. Like,it wasn't necessarily the typography industry.
So I noticed street signs. I went down this rabbit hole of learning to letterpress print. And then in the course of that curiosity, I'm in this, the industry of like [00:04:00] typography and type design. And I think because I was in Australia and because I had no idea about anything, I was like separated from the European history of printing in this place where there wasn't a huge amount of typographic reference.
The design course where I was learning had maybe one or two teachers that knew things, but it was really just, I knew nothing. And I think what that meant was I didn't really.have any fear at the beginning. I just went for it and experimented. And it was the experimentation with like lettering and drawing and drawing over my body and making a YouTube video, like just experimenting with the technology and the medium that then caught the eye of the international typography world at the time.
So I think a lot of the initial feeling was just curiosity and lack of fear. And then once I, was invited to speak at Type of Berlin when I was 21 and started to understand how it all worked, I think, one, I realized I didn't want to be a type [00:05:00] designer. I thought that's just not my personality.
Gemma O'Brien: and, It was just too that if I was going to exist within this world of typography, that I was going to do it in my own way and bring my own interests and take it out of the page and onto the wall and make it more fluid and illustrative. So it was just experimentation and naivety.
Radim Malinic: I think those are the best ingredients, especially when you're 21, you don't really want to know too much about the world. Otherwise you will stop yourself in your tracks thinking, what's the point? I mean,
there's going to be a lot of upset and disappointment coming my way, some successes,
but you mentioned you had no fear, which I think is, I think one of the most important ingredients to actually go and pursue something.
Cause you said, I, Realizing my personality is not in lettering, like in type design, you must be realized that because there needs to be some different level of patience, a different level of craft, because what your work does now, it's an expression of your personality of your soul, which is unique in [00:06:00] a way that what you've created.
But let me go back to that time It felt like it was this sort of like a golden time of typography in the sun. All of a sudden, everyone's a letter or
everyone's a type designer.
So, How did you find that sort of as an expression because obviously you started with the love of signs and honestly what was around you and then you've put yourself as that sort of middle part between your expression and the work. So how did that come about? How did you see it?
Gemma O'Brien: Well, I think looking back, I have a different point of view. At the time, what I think was happening was I discovered this new thing. The internet brought together people that are interested in the same thing. So blogs like I Love Typography was existing and there was another typography podcast that I listened to endlessly.
And I think that nowadays, this was pre Instagram. These kinds of things exist for all, anything you could be interested in. There's like people online talking about it. But at the time it felt [00:07:00] like I was just, being connected to a world that there wasn't physical examples in Australia. So I was connecting with international world and the technology was helping to do that.
Gemma O'Brien: I think that it's so different now, but it does feel like a golden age where there was this moment where You know, Jessica Hish started doing the daily drop cap. there started to be all these kind of people that were excited about this field and brought together by the technology. And I think that I was amongst that and just bringing my own style as I went.
But being a type designer, I think that's what I realized. I'm like, I'm not really interested in, I don't have the patience for the fine details. I'm more of a big picture person. And yeah, I think when I look at my style that developed, part of it was just following my own gut of what I liked and what I was interested in and pulling in references from illustration and the art world.
And then another part of it was driven by the commercial [00:08:00] projects. So things that were like hitting trends in that moment, like there was the chalk trend and the hand painted trend. And then Instagram meant that they wanted to see how everything was made and the process. So it was really a fusion, I think of a lot of different factors.
And lots of late nights and hard work, of course.
Radim Malinic: Do you ever miss the pre Instagram world?
what's come afterwards obviously has brought lots of benefits, but lots of curses because all of a sudden we run our media companies and we don't feel like we keep up with any of it at any time. So do you ever miss that time where things were slightly simpler?
Gemma O'Brien: Yeah, I think it's, I know exactly what you're talking about. And I think that there's a certain group of people who were like in the, in between the worlds, you know, likein the same way that maybe typography people would talk about, like the linotype machine, or, we used to cut things out by hand and then, But this feels different.
There feels like there's a huge acceleration of the technology that I do miss that time [00:09:00] at the beginning because it did feel like I was truly just sharing my creative process without thinking too much about it at the beginning, just genuinely sharing how I was creating calligraphy experiments. People were connecting with it and I was getting positive feedback and growing.
a business without knowing it. but I think it's a lot different now. I think that there's, it's changing in ways maybe that we don't know how it will change our brains and our experiences the world yet. Cause it's happening too fast, but I try to be an optimist. even though I've had dark times thinking about
Radim Malinic: I had a totally different question already, but okay. dark times of Instagram. No, I'll actually let you off on that one. yeah, I think with the explosion of hyper connectivity, obviously we have a lot more opportunities to connect with a lot more people, a lot faster, be seen by more people.
However, I think the aspect I was trying to articulate very badly earlier was like this, the sense of community was easier to create. I remember when [00:10:00] websites would be like the place where you find people what they do, we have actually, we had been more of a sort of unique space where we can be ourselves.
Whereas now we have to fit in squares and kind of work to algorithm and hopefully use the right hashtag before the hashtag is killed off and stuff. So it goes back to really that genuine creativity, because you will always be known your projection of your soul of the expression of your soul.
I think that's where the word really connects, connects because you can be. Hidden somewhere in the back of Instagram or whatever the app is, currently the one
Gemma O'Brien: you saying that it's,
like the community that was allowed in that beginning period was like, we all came to the one place.
Is that what you're?
Radim Malinic: I think it was less dispersed
because at the moment when you think about a creative, like you have to almost run a different community in different places. Or it feels that there's a temptation to have communities in different places because not everyone's your friend on Instagram who follows you on ex if you're still there or you, I've dunno who still uses Facebook, but you know, you had [00:11:00] people on Be Behind, there was a whole group of people talking there.
Then there was, I mean, there's something called Discord.
so yeah, people kind of start scattering and you're like, before it was slightly easier because I felt like we had a bit more of a clearer and easier way to actually connect with one another
But, are we, hyper connected in each of these spaces? No, because there's so many other people in play that you don't really have that sort of focus of conversation. Whereas, when you used to run your blog, that's why people came for that thing. they were not distracted by someone trying to sell them car insurance or whatever else just appears next to our posts.
So yeah, I think community was easier.
Gemma O'Brien: Do you think also that like maybe back then, 10 years ago, you could have the same identity across all the different platforms, like LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram. Whereas now it feels more like what those things are for and has become more solidified. So it's like in the same way that you talk differently to a colleague versus a friend versus a family member, that in these different spaces, we have to become a certain [00:12:00] version of our online selves.
Yes.
Radim Malinic: People who do this successfully definitely use the platform for what the algorithm rewards them. So, I use a example of Stephen Bartlett who runs Diary of the CEO. And on Instagram, he's Hey, you're going to live forever. Come and join me on this journey.
Gemma O'Brien: Be, super creative. on YouTube, the same content is have you got a chair? Are you sitting down? You're going to die. You're going to die because you're sitting down. It's Because that's the algorithm, it's I mean, people use it for, Playing to the rules of each game
Radim Malinic: playing to the rules and, and you can't blame them for it because if your outcome, or if your, gain from all of this is to have numbers or engagement, if that's what you need, if that's somehow propels your creativity, then fair play, that's what you're
doing. But I don't know how, how active you are and what you do on some of these platforms, but. Is there a reward in any more than that?
Gemma O'Brien: Well, I think that when I think of this, when I see what you're saying, [00:13:00] like with these brands, where they, it's almost like they specifically strategize, like, how am I going to reformat my content for each of these platforms? And, I think that when you do that, it's almost like branding. as a designer, you're like, you're coming in thinking this is what I present.
This is who I am, or this is my product, and I'm going to package that in these different ways. I often think about the fact that when I started using social media, it was almost like, I wasn't consciously packaging my content in a particular way. However, I was making small tweaks based on what people responded to.
But I also think that I started to change, I reached a certain point in my career where, I wanted to explore more styles or I wanted to push myself into maybe doing more painting rather than digital work. And I think that If you're working to an algorithm or to things that people are familiar with, and you want that audience wants to engage with the familiar, then you keep on doing the same thing, but that is [00:14:00] artists and creatives that were often seeking the new or seeking transformation.
And for me, personally, I also wanted to see what does my creative practice look like when it's not driven by extrinsic. feedback. And so I started to do that in about 2018. I pulled back a little bit from Instagram, started creating more like analog journals where I documented visuals. And at first it was very difficult to like not interrupt my process and try and document it or not want immediate feedback.
I'm like, is this good or not? And then over time, and now it's reached a point where I'm like, okay. Now I actually feel like I know how I like to work. I'm ready to almost come back into the online world, but that everything's changed. And I just would prefer to wait to be more specific about what is it that I want to share and what's important to me?
Radim Malinic: Is it craft? Is it my life? Is it, the things that change. like that point because it almost sounds like you needed to work [00:15:00] on yourself and work on your baseline where you're happy. you're enough, your work, your craft, where you're going and then say, I can go back into this or I might not. because I think it feels when you mentioned immediate feedback.
It's so tempting to go Hey, what do you think of this? What do you think of this? And one of the points I've been. famously grinding to death on this podcast on the previous season is that for clients, we don't want to show early previews. Oh no, no, no, no, no. I can't show you anything yet, but we are happy to put it online saying, what do you think?
A, B or C? What do you think? Should I do this? wait a minute. So is it insecurity? Like, where do we go? Because Something external. We're just looking for validation in that process. And somebody says, I think you should change X, Y, Z. no. I wasn't asking you to tell me what to change. Just say it's a good one, right?
Tell me it's good. And I'll carry on. don't give me opinions. just say yes, So I think that plays with the work in that sort of digital space because we, trying to trust people and hoping for someone to give us,a cheer [00:16:00] whilst we're working in solitude on our own.
But talking about your craft, when I find out how you've gone from someone who wanted to be a lawyer to someone who digitally to someone who's extremely, talented working with hands, free hand painting and that kind of stuff. So where is the link in between all of this?
Gemma O'Brien: I think I chose law because I thought I should do a career that was considered to be a smart career. I was ducks of my school. I went really well. I was very academic. I studied hard. I always loved art and creativity and drama and, all of these other things. But I think when it came to the time where I had to choose, I let something else dictate my choice, and then when I got into the, I think it was two years in or a year and a half in of the law degree, I was extremely unhappy.
I was just spending every night doing these readings. I just couldn't see, it just didn't feel right, and I don't know what the catalyst was, but I do remember the moment where I was like on the computer looking up I think secretly I wanted to do fine art and design [00:17:00] was like the in between, like it wasn't so scary going from law to design as it would be from going law to fine art.
And so then there I was, and I think from that point when I was in design, there was always, like I was excited by the technology. and I was learning Illustrator and Photoshop, but then I was really driven by handmade processes. Like I loved the life drawing at the beginning of the course, like typography, the gateway drug for me to typography was letterpress printing.
it was always the physical thing. So then the work that I started to create and the work that resonated with people actually was usually either hand drawn, then scanned, then digitized. And then I thought, Oh, how can I take this digital design and go back to being on hand. So then I started painting murals, so there was always this interplay between the two and there still is.
I think people think maybe that more of my process is done by [00:18:00] hand and it is often with the murals and calligraphy, but there is a huge amount of like digital preparation, like setting up layouts in Illustrator, or drawing on the iPad, or on a Wacom tablet, like there's lots of all things at once happening.
Radim Malinic: once you start sort of moving things on the screen, especially I mean, the tools were less advanced to what they are today and what they will be advanced tomorrow, because like we're making that leap and we're multiplying with so much that, what you needed to be a professional at now is a click of a button with AI, plugin.
But, you mentioned that there's a digital. preparation to your creative work, to your sort of work afterwards, especially for the murals, how do you go from the obsession, let's say call it obsession with type and typography and letters into the world where you are now? And I appreciate I'm jumping maybe like a 10 year career, what are you doing?
But your work is, there's an incredible amalgamation of obviously type and illustration. [00:19:00] It's got always like amazing sort of yin and yang,feeling. And obviously I remember you from writing sort of simple phrases onto the walls. And then as if someone pressed a button, I'm like, Oh my God, what is this?
this is incredible. And it parts of me reminds me, if you remember Si Scott,
who used to
do these, I mean, this is like 2007, burst of like incredible work. And, there's, he was, everyone was trying to work out the liquify tool, like, how is he doing it? It's yeah.
He's drawing it, you can't fake it, there's no bullshit, you have to actually put craft into this. And you found, obviously, this almost like a sort of unique corner of creativity where, I'm trying to find like what is a mixture of, because I know that you've studied calligraphy in Japan and you you did various different ways of improving as a creative, but where did you find who you are and how did you find to that style?
And if I can add to that question, like on your journey, How sure you were, that you were doing the right thing. Because with the [00:20:00] myriad of everything, you can be,am I Jimma O'Brien and I'm doubling up who I am on this? Or was it gradual? How did it work?
Gemma O'Brien: Wow. Well, firstly, you said many nice things about me in those sentences. So thank you. I liked the way that you described my work. It was nice to hear that from someone who'd seen the progression. I guess,in terms of like, How did I define that? I think it was just picking up the things that I gravitated towards and then always wanting to push a little bit further.
I think the calligraphy started to influence the movement, like the flow of calligraphy and bringing in floral elements.artists like, as you said, like Cy Scott, but also, like James Jean is the amazing illustrator, Yayu Kusama with the installations, with the dots, and I was always looking like to a multitude of references of things that I gravitated towards.
And then there was a point where I also decided [00:21:00] no more black and white only. I'm going to start working in color. And then there was a bit of a steep learning curve there because I didn't really ever learn color theory. So I was just like, okay, well, what do I like and collected references of things that I was drawn to make these color, color palettes that I would then match.
and it just kept on growing from there. And I think I liked the idea then that the typography was more bold or sans serif like structured so that the illustration could be more fluid and,have this more psychedelic like world that could come into it. But I just followed the feeling.
Radim Malinic: I mean, that's the best way to do it because you said, I haven't learned a color theory. I mean, who cares? ,
Gemma O'Brien: life.
Radim Malinic: I mean, my, one of my past careers as an illustrator in advertising and commercial illustrator, working digitally. And sometimes you come to an agency, you're working with an art director and they're like, do you know the color theory?
I was like, why? Like, A, I should work [00:22:00] with you to tell me what we need to do. And B, we work with a feeling. What does, you know, if it starts looking good. then maybe we own something or something interesting. And I know, you mentioned in the interview with Debbie Millman, that you used to sell flowers.
And I wonder if the flowers in your work in some way are connected, or is it inspired by your, the place where you grew up, or there's some connection between sort of the organic shapes?
Gemma O'Brien: yeah. I mean, I do, I love nature. I love flowers. I love, both as like for the experience for me to de stress, but then also as inspiration. And I actually was thinking about the fact that when I became interested in typography, I'd walk around the city and see signs. And it made me think, wow, I wonder if I was in a different environment at that age, 21 when I dropped out of law school and instead moved to an art school in the mountains, would I have become obsessed?
With flowers, would've this new obsession or way that I see things just being directed to whatever was in my environment. [00:23:00] So it's definitely something. The two, I think that na, like flowers are the nature component and typography is like the human com. It's like our invention of communication and nature is it's doing its own thing.
So it is a way to bring those two worlds together.
Radim Malinic: I, I had to, on that point, I had to actually fish out this book called Still Life by Niall Mackay.
Gemma O'Brien: Oh,
Radim Malinic: Doan Lee, I've been fond of her for years. And literally everything she does is, installations with flowers,
but
these things that they're like a still life, colors are incredible,
there is something about what we can bring and what was actually, what's been here before us, how we can bring into our work and how it actually speaks to us.
Because it feels like it's been here for a reason, as Rory Sutherland says, the flower is a weed with an advertising budget.
it's how things appeal to us, how we make sense of things. And I'm glad I could pay you a compliment in person because your work is inspirational, obviously it's inspired many [00:24:00] others, and it's it's It feels like you double down on who you are and it feels like there's no bullshit compromise.
it's just pursuing creativity for who we are and what we should be doing. it's the thing that we should never you once said that insecurities never go away.
There's always a little bit of an imposter syndrome, no matter what level you're at.
Gemma O'Brien: Did I say that?
I mean, I think it's definitely true.
Radim Malinic: yeah.
because I'm thinking it's there's only one person doing what you do. and for the very right reason. But when you're on that cherry picker, on that ladder, on that platform, painting murals on your own for hours on end, what goes through your mind? Where's your mind at?
Gemma O'Brien: Well, I think in many ways the painting part, once it gets to the end, is the most enjoyable part, because my mind, I'm either listening to a book or listening to music or thinking, and the painting part, the design's already been done. It's quite therapeutic. it's [00:25:00] physical. often there is a team of assistants who I might have been working with, so maybe they've done painting during the day and I get to come in and do the fun bit.
there is a collaborative side of it as well, which I really enjoy. I think at the beginning there was often this other component of the deadline that, it really spurs you on. if I was doing a gallery show, maybe you'd be painting for two weeks to install it.
It would be up and then painted white at the end, but there was always this time pressure. So that gave me energy as I'm painting away. As time has gone on and it's become more of a familiar process, I have started to notice which parts are more enjoyable, which parts I can be more strategic about. And yeah.
Radim Malinic: It's interesting that you said the end part is enjoyable because our Stories about people's work and your work seems quite serene, I would never think that, having a deadline or some sort of time constraint or pressure would be actually part of it. I'm thinking.[00:26:00] the picture summarizes you on a cherry picker, painting with clearly headphones.
I'm thinking, well, it must be wall to wall piece, And it's interesting that you open up about the fact that's actually only the part which is mostly fun, therapeutic, you can relax. And when I interviewed Julie Solstrom, she was like, oh yeah, when I do this, particular texture and effect at the end, I can put a, I can put a kettle on, have a coffee, enjoy it.
I'm thinking, But your work's your work. It's so serene and so beautiful. It just oozes like mindfulness. You're like, no, it's quite stressful thinking how, because it doesn't look that way. it's maybe a bit like writing a book, the outcome looks lovely, but it's a battlefield for a long time.
But I have made this impression about your work that It feels serene. So how does Creative conflict play part in your creative process.
Gemma O'Brien: I think that there's definitely like this balance of like chaos and beauty or maybe not chaos. I think I used to be a lot more [00:27:00] chaotic at the beginning of my career. Like I didn't have systems to get things done. So I just would be driven by, as I said before, the energy of a deadline or take an inspiration and go forth and make it happen no matter what.
And I think that now. Because I have a body of work that people either often reference or that I want to go to a new level with, there is this discomfort at the beginning of either trying to find something new or knowing when something's not good, but not knowing why, just that creative process of searching.
for when it clicks. And if it's a personal project and there's endless time, it usually can be resolved. But I think sometimes with like client projects, like sometimes it doesn't meet your standards. It doesn't look as good as serene or as beautiful as I, as it is in your mind. So it's like this a bit of a battle.
Radim Malinic: When you mentioned chaos at the beginning, isn't it that we find out [00:28:00] more about ourselves and how we work? Because if you're trying to multitask and do different styles and different things, then you need to find processes for each of these disciplines. But the longer we go, the more we find out. Know what we doing.
And I think we all dream at the beginning of that creative freedom that gives us everything. like I wanna pursue all of the ideas that as long as I can in every hour, and as a parent now I've got four or five hours a day that I can work somehow uninterrupted. And it's That would have given my 20 year old self palpitations.
I would never think that I can actually achieve anything. Whereas the chaos in my life got replaced with process
and expectations and knowing what I'm trying to do. Because when we put ourselves into constraints, magic happens. It's almost like the oxymoron of I really want everything. What, do you know what you want?
Not really, because everything looks and smells good. Whereas when we dabble down in that sort of funnel of okay, so this is the sort of number of left options
that can make you happy that you [00:29:00] connect with, that actually makes more sense. So, Yeah, it's an interesting one that you say, with the client deadlines and that kind of stuff,it's still pushes the creative conflict into creative process.
Gemma O'Brien: Well, yeah, I think that also what I realized was that I used to think that I found. These deadlines stressful because I had a deadline. But then when I realized when I had my own studio and I could do whatever I want, I had more creative freedom, more time. Then I either just didn't begin as quickly or I didn't work as quickly.
And that ultimately. Life has a deadline. it fuels my creativity. Now I've realized that and that stress is like, could be stress that is debilitating or it could be stress that is energizing and it's the fire that gets you going.
So it's really like how you perceive it and how you use it. And if you think it's a worthy cause. I also think sometimes that procrastination, Yeah. can actually be, this is just a theory, but maybe an internal sense of knowing [00:30:00] how long something actually takes. Like knowing how long you could achieve a result within, and that you delay until that much time is left.
Who knows?
Radim Malinic: I think you're onto something there. I think you absolutely got a point about it because sometimes when you produce something so mammoth, let's say you're working on gallery show and it takes pretty much every ounce of your energy, and your time, you put it out there. Yeah. And you realize that you need almost as much time to actually recover.
Like that endurance that you put into this, the energy, it takes you time to recover. Whereas with the naturally flowing process, we find a deadline. Do we actually, I think you're really, I think you're really onto something. do we actually create these natural breaks that help us to actually understand what we're doing and I'm sure you would attest to it that at the beginning of your career, like you were like, okay, I've got five hours to make something.
I'm going to make it in five hours. It should take me three days, but I'm
going to make it now. In fact, I'm going to stay up. I'm going to do it for long. And then you realize, I [00:31:00] could change this. I can make some improvements. And the older we get, and I'll be like, You know what, I can do this over three days or five days or three months, and everything gets better because you've actually built up reflection, self reflection.
You don't have to ask the internet if they like it or not, because who cares? It's actually your work, So I think that procrastination element, I think really works, in that sort of, in that sense. I also touched on the word patience. Do you find yourself more patient now than you were at the beginning?
did you ever have the sort of internal conflicts that things were not coming together as fast as they should have been, as you wanted to, or were you quite content with your process from the beginning?
Gemma O'Brien: I think at the beginning of my career, I just did so many things. I was constantly working, constantly creating that patience was not a thing because I filled every gap with more, which was some part excitement, some part like driven by the work that was coming through and the travel and all of these things.
I think what did start to happen though, was that [00:32:00] after I had reached a certain point in my career and had been using Instagram as a way to share my work. constantly. The patience for, as we were talking about, like the feedback or what do people think became this, an impatience. I think I became a bit impatient in my creative process.
For example, a big mural project might take, a week to design, two weeks to install, and then share this like one image of it at the end and have this flood of like positive feedback or response. And then gone. And it felt like something was a bit off, like in the ratio of this isn't fully representing like the full experience.
and It actually took me a little while to, like, reconnect with then enjoying the process and not just thinking about that end reward of the sharing. and the way I got that back was actually going back to do life drawing, which was [00:33:00] very slow and very hard, after looking at screens and getting constant feedback.
stimulation. But in the end, I think it retrained my ability to be more patient in my creative process and also patient in growth of upping my skill level in a way that was quite difficult. It was quite humbling.
Radim Malinic: I know that from quite a young age you been traveling a lot. I think travel teaches us how to be patient.
But on that note, I know that, just like for everybody else, COVID was a time where you stopped traveling as much as you used to. And Before COVID happened, how did you find travel and change of surroundings and environment, in relation to creativity and headspace?
Because sometimes it's You know, it's lovely to stay in a hotel for three months for work, but after three months, you're just like, I just want to toast at home. I just want, just, I don't want to see another buffet. I don't want to see [00:34:00] another chocolate before bedtime. Because that sort of that idyllic dream turns into, I a repetitive groundhog day.
So, with your travel, I'm sure it was, beneficial to a creative process, but did you ever find yourself like, I'd just rather be at home?
Gemma O'Brien: Well, it's, funny because I mean, I have traveled so much through my career in a way that I never anticipated like a career in design would actually be linked to travel. It was an unintended consequence. I think of starting to do speaking engagements and workshops and then the murals where I was like, having to physically be there and often I was also then, working.
So I'd bring my laptop, bring the iPad and be like, I actually loved working on the plane because I was like, okay, let me get this done in this 12 hour flight or, I think that I was getting a lot out of it. I was also having been based in Australia. being able to connect with all these international design communities and people like me all around the world was like this amazing way to build like a network, within the [00:35:00] world.
And it did definitely shaped my creative process because the stimulant, like the inspiration that I could see, whether it was in typography or signage or plants, or just even advertising in other countries or in big airports and luxury stores was so rich and varied that it was just like this amazing.
Blessing. I think I did always come back, to come home into Sydney where my base was. And it worked for a long time. I think COVID was, it was a hard time, but it was also like a good chance for me to take a step back. And I really needed to stop the intensity. I think that I was moving around.
And, but you know, it was a struggle. It was a struggle for my relationships, like friends and family, like I've got my solid people, but I think that my boyfriend at the time when I was traveling a lot, I know, I'm like, God, what would have that been like on the other side? I think it's great [00:36:00] if your partner can also travel with you or you both in that lifestyle.
But. It's something that I think about like now, one thing that did happen after the end of COVID because Australia had a bit of a delay in when we had our lockdowns, it felt like the world picked up again and I was still not stuck in Australia, but you know, we had a five kilometre radius at one point.
and I did then start to get this itch of Ooh, I want to go back into the world. at first I was like, I need to stay in one spot. And then I was like, Oh my God, And so the first trip that I did after the lockdown was like, I was like a baby, like just even in being in an airplane, I'm like, Oh my God, I can see a volcano out the window.
This is like insane. So it was an amazing reset of just like the joy of being able to see different places in the world. But yeah, I think it's a constant battle. I think we're always looking for something new and something familiar.
Radim Malinic: I think we do. Did you [00:37:00] find with going back into the world that you had to felt like you had to find your feet again? Like it was just like, almost this is how we fly. This is how we do this. And it, cause it's felt an interesting way, blowing off the cobwebs. but what you mentioned about relationships and the strain on relationships when you travel constantly, I think.
Covid gave us, most of us gave us a reset. It, in a way, saved my marriage because I stopped traveling as much,
we had a young family
and you're kind of pursuing, because you mentioned something earlier, which is I filled my space with more and I just always put more and more in my process, in my time.
creatives, we are never finished. there's always something more that you can add to your list. Maybe you can do this, you can do that. Oh, I can connect with this person. I can go and do that talk. I can do that workshop. we need to be in some way selfish because you're the person getting the work done, right?
if you, do everything and everyone wants you to do. And I'm just talking generally,it would be a different story. So this is why the focus and solitude and, spaces and, our studios and that's [00:38:00] so necessary. But with COVID, I think it, it's from personal experience, it's going to give us a way of going, wait a minute, we actually integrated in society, in relationships, in our families, how do we make this work?
And I think. It's been, for me, a great resetter, like actually, I'm home. This is what I should be doing. This is what I could be doing. You know what? I can slow down
just because I haven't done 40 talks in a year doesn't mean my career is stalling, everyone's in the same boat and we've reconsidered and reconfigured our career.
the burnouts of the relationships and burnout of the work, I know you mentioned before that in one of the interviews that, you have a couple of burnouts a year and then sort of small ones around this.
would you agree that burnout is a necessary part of our process?
Gemma O'Brien: I think that I've changed my mind about this and that what, that's correct. I did used to have these burnouts, but I think that's because I was almost operating like a sprinter rather than an ultra endurance runner, [00:39:00] because it was like these huge bursts of energy. And thenwhat you were talking about before, like high intensity rest, and the rest wasn't rest.
It was more just like exhaustion or, whereas now I think there are still little blips of that. But for example, now, like I don't do all nighters. Like I look after my health. I'm like thinking, strategically more about, what creative process is sustainable? what's the amount that I need to do to get this done?
and it was a super hard adjustment though, because So much of my creative identity was like linked to this idea of at the beginning, like living in this attic and I was like an artist and I would have parties and then I'd stay up late and like I'd have calls with America and it was like this whole like thing, but I was also in my twenties, and it was, that was just that moment then.
And I think that As I started to shift and think about what I wanted my life to look like, I just had to change my [00:40:00] thoughts about the creative process. And now I don't think they, there are burnouts, but I'm just recalibrating about what is this next chapter of my creative life look like?
Radim Malinic: And celebrating that past one, but I think also moving on. in a different way, which I'm still finding my feet in, Would you agree it's a constant journey?
when do we get it right? Do we ever, do we need to? That's the question. do we ever try to get the balance right? do we try to achieve, do we want to be a sprinter in our later years and not hurt ourselves?
Gemma O'Brien: mean, what's the maximum amount of work that you can do without injury to your health? And I would also add without, injury to your relationships or your well being, I think that it's look, maybe balance, could be like this, but balance could also be like this. like this.
So I think it's a, everyone's different. Everyone's got different priorities, different goals, like different life circumstance. There's so many different factors. I think that it's just a matter [00:41:00] of finding out what works and being creative. I think the one thing that I've realized is well, you just apply that creativity to how you then structure your life and maybe you'll find a sweet spot and you keep on trying.
Oh, that doesn't work. Get closer, make some adjustments.
Radim Malinic: You're my first guest who actually has, a work acquired by a museum.
Gemma O'Brien: you currently, your website's got so little information on it. It's just like I've got a CV and I've got seven pictures, go away. But I, just like everybody else, absolutely adored that piece that you created.
Radim Malinic: And now I know that there's a process between sort of digital and hand drawn and kind of stuff because. there's the blend lines which look like illustrator lines, but then it just goes into something which obviously is not an illustrator. what was particularly, an inspiration behind that piece that you created?
Because it seems,compared to some of your work, it's almost a yang to a ying, like it's not as [00:42:00] complicated, So how did that come about? And obviously when we talked about COVID and this is what came out of it, like your pieces in black and white, it feels there's somber and hopeful and there's flow and motion.
So how did it come about?
Gemma O'Brien: the first experiment with that style was in 2016 and I was commissioned by the Museum of Art and Design in Atlanta, actually again working with Debbie Millman, to paint a piece for their typography art exhibition called, I think it was, I can't remember the name of the title, but it was at Moda. And, often when I do these pieces, I'll come into the space, look at the space, choose the phrase, and that design, that kind of style where it was simplified, it was actually originally a black wall and I painted it in white, it came about through that painting process.
So then when the Times Square COVID PSA campaign came along, it felt like a continuation of [00:43:00] that earlier experiment, and it just fit perfectly, with. the context and, the organizers like, for freedoms and print magazine, they also had some input in which of the styles was going to suit the best.
Radim Malinic: it was later animated as well. So yeah, it was, it's definitely one of the pieces that's connected with people the most, I think, partly due to the location and the moment in time and the importance of the message,Yeah, there's something absolutely magical about it. And now, After speaking to you for 45 minutes and looking at your work, now I can understand the digital pre process
How do you almost mentally prepare yourself with that?creative space, the capacity of actually, how do I even digest this piece? WhereasI totally relate to those psychedelic layers, to those sort of extra, extra sort of flourishes and stuff.
So that's really, enlightening. With the piece that's in the museum, how can people [00:44:00] actually see it? Is it just, is it a digital piece? Is it actually a piece of wall? Or how did it go out? What was that?
Gemma O'Brien: I actually don't know if it's on display at the moment, but basically the museum acquired all of the posters that were part of this COVID campaign for their collection. So I think that it only goes on display at certain times and it's basically like they have just acquired it. So I don't think that you could go and see it there right
Did it feel like a validating point of your career? Because obviously you've had so many super highs that is it like, do you like, do you explain to your parents? actually I've got, now I've got stuff in the museum. does it validate my career? the dropout, the lower dropout was definitely a good thing to do because we're in the museum now.
It's funny because, This idea of like validation, like I've thought about it a lot, especially as before we were talking about like the extrinsic motivation of like instant feedback from an audience versus like intrinsic feedback of what you like. And I think the validation thing's the same. And it's It's not like, of course it means something, within the industry, within the art and design [00:45:00] world, I was like, holy shit.
it was a super cool milestone. And it came at this moment where I actually felt as though I'd achieved all my career goals. Like I thought of being a young design student and I imagined like speaking in a design conference, I imagined like having a billboard or like.working with Apple and within this three year window, there was like this boom of all these things happening, have my own studio. And yes, I felt like proud, but I think the pride came mostly from like people around me celebrating. me and my work as opposed to the actual title itself.
and then like anything, it just goes away and you're like, Oh, what about real life? What about making a joke and connecting with someone in real life? I think it's, it matters and it doesn't matter. And then it comes back again, so it was cool and I am proud.
Radim Malinic: So you mentioned the three year window that everything happened. Did you ever have a list of dream clients, goals, [00:46:00] or did you move at a pace that you never really had time to write down, what you wanted to do and how you want to do it and where we'd like to be, because I am the person who never had that.
I dreamt of okay, now it's time for me to step up, but you encounter these. People online or some of our friends and our colleagues, peers and contemporaries. They're like, Oh, I definitely want to work for this and that known brand. And I'm like, what happens when you've done the work with the brand?
Because do you need to reinvent your goals? because if you really put yourself, if you want the thing on the top. It, you can't go any higher, like obviously if we cover everyone from that sort of coveted spectrum of brands, where do you go next? Because you have to reinvent your goals.
Did you feel like you have to reinvent your goals or find
Gemma O'Brien: Yes and no. I think as you said, I wasn't like when I said I'd achieved all my dreams, I'd never written them down, but it was more like this sense of what does success mean in the design world? it was like, and as you come up in your career, you. [00:47:00] you see who else is celebrating for what reasons and that's instilled in you.
And I think that was happening. I didn't have a list, a bucket list of goals, but I think the studio was one. But more with my work, it was definitely like I wanted to, I knew when I was pushing the design or the craft within what I was creating and that was driving me as opposed to a checklist of clients.
But I think that they just came, like what started to happen was the work that I did for gallery shows or my experiments would then feed into what the clients would ask for maybe two years later. Like I started to see this flow on effect. But I do think there was this element of that three year period, these things were checked off.
I was in this amazing studio, now what?and I didn't plan beyond that point. Like I didn't plan beyond that. And this last couple of years, I've been navigating what's next. I mean, I love art and I've loved like shifting more into thinking about my work as paintings and drawings [00:48:00] and imagining it in like a contemporary art sense.
Radim Malinic: But I also became really interested in the science of, like working and creativity. And I'm actually going to do a master's in neuroaesthetics in London So there's a new goal. I was going to ask you, if you now think one step ahead, I feel when you know almost the situation you're in and the situation that can come at you from any angle,
it's easy to not think beyond the sort of current situation. So, as you said, I didn't plan for what was next. Well,
now you're planning for a degree. I mean, do you think, do we, through our no fear and naivety and the idealism of creativity, do we need to be more pragmatic?
Do we need to be more realistic?
I think that part of it, even though when I was starting out, I didn't have goals. I think something else was driving me. And what are we all, like, why do we even. Like, why did I switch to design? Why do we pursue this? what are we [00:49:00] trying to get out of it? and it's, there's always multiple reasons.
Gemma O'Brien: And so I think, now I'm thinking more strategically, not so much from the point of view of oh, I want to have a artwork in space or like,do these bigger and bigger. I want to continue to grow my work. I want to be challenged. I want to have a creative process that feels fulfilling. There is a part of realizing that, more younger designers started asking me for advice and okay, I'm in a position now where for so long, I thought I didn't have experience or I was always a beginner.
And now I'm like, oh, okay, I can actually guide and help people or, step into these different roles, which. I never imagined would be part of it. and then the neuroaesthetics,the study, the master's degree really came about by accident when I was fulfilling my final checklist goal of my studio space, which was to paint one last installation.
on the walls for myself as an experiment. And I delayed it for so long [00:50:00] because I was doing client work and travel and, probably had a bit of resistance because it was my own project. But what, when I did finally start to do it, I was listening to like science podcasts and neuro neuroscience podcasts about aesthetics and the creative experience.
And I started to have that same feeling that I had when I got into typography and I was like, Ooh. This is something and it feels connected, with my experience in the field, but then it also feels new. So I just followed that thread and knew I was leaving my studio space and thought, what's next?
And so that's what's next. But there's not a strategy. I think part of it. I'm curious to be in a new environment, to be outside of Australia, to be in the UK, to find another art gallery to work with there. But then also I'm like, what will I discover that will either feed back into the career that I've had, build on it, or potentially go in an entirely new direction.
So I'm up for [00:51:00] it.
Radim Malinic: I mean, I mean, it sounds amazing. when you described about finding the sort of non linear path to where you right now, like that sort of non defined goal, the next step that sort of revealed itself to you. Yeah. I feel like we've become more creative by finding out more about non creative things.
it's that personal baseline, that foundation that we carry with ourselves, that's what actually gives us a bigger understanding of what we're trying to do and how we're trying to do this.
Because,to go with that flow, you can have, you can sell that amazing wave of success, as you said, what does success mean in design and creativity, and then you get swept up, you're on that wave and you're flying, obviously you're floating, somewhere with this is someone else's direction for three, four years, Wait a minute, am I actually getting better at this?
Am I understanding better about ourselves?
Whereas what your testament is now that we can pursue these things that almost would never feel natural or even logical. okay, I'm going to work in neuro aesthetics. I'm going to learn that [00:52:00] I'm going to do that in 10, after 10 years of my career.
So I, Yeah, I'm so excited for you because I think this is going to unlock something completely different
So I think one last point I would like to talk, which summarizes your career really well at the moment is the word ultra.
You mentioned ultra before, and we talked about patience. We talk about chaos and beauty and processes and how do you. Spur yourself on, like what is the thing that makes you wake up and go you know what, I can go a little bit further than I did yesterday and I can do that again.
Gemma O'Brien: is a very strong finish. I'm glad that you brought this up. I mean the ultra thing, the thing that, what it became was a way to get me out of a dark spiral, to be completely honest with you. Like in my studio, post COVID, post breakup, completely creatively blocked and stagnant. And it was this sense that I'm like, I do need to imagine a new version of [00:53:00] myself.
And I'd shifted from doing ultra running to this idea that I actually wanted to be an ultra artist. And it was almost like another persona. I'm like, what would it be? What would be this like ultra version of myself? And it started as a bit of a joke. Like it started as a bit of a,what's an ultra schedule?
Like how many hours could you work? Or if I was the best version of myself, what would I, how would I behave? And then it became real and I'd have like pod, like playlists of music that like would give me energy to work or do little 45 minute blocks of like high intensity music. I'm like, I'm just going to do this in this time and It started to work like it started to be a way just to see, to shift into an ultra mode, almost I was listening to lots of like endurance podcasts.
I was listening to, all of these things in like the health and wellness world and I'm like, what would these look like in art and design? And it was funny, but it also was real, and, Then [00:54:00] I like to think of it as ultra and mortal. So I'm like, there's the ultra artist and then there's mortal because ultra is just, you can't be that all the time.
it's you can't do the sprint all the time. You can't be in that mindset all the time. You need to realize that nothing's perfect. Nothing is ever perfect. Always amazing. Like we are humans in the real world, So now it's like a gold standard that if I have to, if I'm doing a talk and I'm in the hotel room and I'm nervous to go on stage, like, all right, it's a mindset, like ultra mode.
So it's really just a way to, to get it done. I think the tools that work for you when you're at the beginning of your career start, you need new tools to get inspired and to get energized. And that was one of them that, that worked for me.
Radim Malinic: I love it. I think when you think of ultra, it's a combination of many different things. We are, we can be seen as creative athletes, but we don't have the background staff to [00:55:00] help us to do this. We don't have a sports psychologist or masseuse or whatever. Like we have to really work on ourselves, look in so many different mirrors and actually understand the things beyond other people.
We have another people's point of views. So. What you're describing, I think it's a genius way of describing a career because the ultra only runs the race every now and then, but they do everything they can to be actually prepared for that race to be anytime, any day, you know, like, it's not like
it's in six months.
I'll get myself into shape in six months. Of course we do that. But when you've got that mindset of okay, you know what, any day could be an ultra and I want to be ready for it. So I, Yeah, thank you for that because I think it can really open eyes to some people and say there's a journey and it's like we go beyond marathon, we go beyond marathon, we actually, we go ultra like actually someone who actually lives and breathes what they do and understands how they can be better.
So,thank you for so much for your time today. I've learned so much about your work and your process and yeah, it's [00:56:00] been a pleasure. Thank you.
Gemma O'Brien: Thanks for having me. I'll see you in the bad weather. If I'll see you in London, in the UK in a few months.
Radim Malinic: Thank you.
Gemma O'Brien: I'll chat to
you soon.
Radim Malinic: You're most welcome. Thank you.
USBPre2-7: I thank you for listening to this episode of mindful creative podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions, or even suggestions. So please get in touch via the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, write and manage editing. An audio production was massively done by Neil McKay from 7 million bikes podcast. And the theme music was written and produced by Jack James. Thank you.
And I hope to see you on the next episode. [00:57:00]
©2023 Radim Malinic. All rights reserved. Made with ❤️ in London by Brand Nu Studio.