"Stress is the opposite end of the spectrum of creativity. It's a very narrow, restricted state and creativity is an open and expansive state." 

Luke Lucas, a Sydney-based designer and meditation teacher since the mid-90s, discusses his journey from workaholic substance use to discovering meditation through his father. He explores how mindfulness transformed his creative practice, personal life, and approach to parenting. The conversation weaves between creative practice, the challenges of modern distractions, and finding authentic inspiration through stillness. His unique perspective as both a successful designer and meditation teacher offers valuable insights into sustainable creative practice in today's fast-paced industry.

Key Takeaways:

• Meditation helps develop creative intuition and inspiration by clearing mental clutter
• Digital distractions and constant connectivity make it harder to access our true creative potential
• Regular meditation practice improves work efficiency and focus while reducing reactivity to stress
• Breath work provides immediate tools for managing anxiety and creative challenges
• Being present and finding stillness is crucial for both personal wellbeing and creative success
• Balancing freelance design work with meditation teaching creates a more sustainable creative practice
• Parenthood can be a catalyst for positive lifestyle changes and career decisions

Daring Creativity. Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic

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Luke Lucas: [00:00:00] Yeah, I think one of the most valuable things in terms of creativity is the capacity to be bored. don't think that it really even exists anymore. People don't give themselves the time to do that.  

having that, boredom is what forces you to, entertain yourself in different ways. And I, think that's where, creativity really blossoms in that kind of environment. And I think also with the way that we're consuming content these days, And we're not actually, consciously choosing where we want to go.

It's almost pushed on us. I think that's, robbing us of, an opportunity to steer in a different direction. Like it's funneling us in a particular way. And I don't, I think that's necessarily healthy either.  Welcome to Mindful Creative Podcast, a show about understanding how to deal with the highs and lows of [00:01:00] creative lives. My name is Radek Malinich and creativity changed my life, but it also nearly killed me. In this season, inspired by my book of the same title, I am talking to some of the most celebrated figures in the creative industry.

Radim Malinic: In our candid conversations, my guests share their experiences and how they overcame their challenges and struggles, how they learned to grow as creatives. A creative career in the 21st century can be overwhelming. I wanted to capture these honest and transparent conversations that might help you find that guiding light in your career.

Thank you for joining me on this episode and taking the first or next step towards regaining control of your creative life.

You ready?  

 my guest today is nearing three decades in the creative industry. From his tree house studio on the Northern beaches of Sydney, to screens, [00:02:00] billboards, and magazines across the globe. He's a world renowned creative specializing in custom lettering, illustration, design, and art direction. He's also a passionate breathwork facilitator who considers having a dedicated mindful practice an essential ingredient in sustaining his creative career.

We discuss his journey from being a workaholic with substance use to discovering meditation through his father. transformed his creative practice, personal life and approach to parenting. It's my pleasure to introduce Luke Lucas.  

Radim Malinic: Hey Luke, welcome to the show. How are you doing today? 

Luke Lucas: I'm doing pretty well. Thanks. Thanks for having me. 

Radim Malinic: Oh, you're most welcome. I've been looking forward to speaking to you because you're, um, I would say a normally in our industry, at least from view that I've got, because I don't know many [00:03:00] other designers who'd be also meditation teachers.

So for those who don't know you or never heard of you, how would you introduce yourself? 

Luke Lucas: my name is Luke Lucas. I am a freelance creative that lives in the northern beaches of Sydney. I have been working in this industry since the mid nineties. I'm also a meditation teacher and I'm a father.

that's me. 

Radim Malinic: So you mentioned being in the creative industry since mid nineties. you must have seen some shifts in, approach to mental health and mindfulness because I'm in mid nineties, wasn't exactly a decade known for mindful approach. 

Luke Lucas: I think the approach to mental health was, substances really like when I first started off, I guess I had no idea about mindfulness really.

I worked very hard and I actually found that through work. I was able to find a distraction from my thoughts. So I became, immersed in my work, which did work for me in a good way, I in the beginning established a good work ethic and [00:04:00] enabled me to learn a lot more, and perfect my craft and that kind of thing.

But when I stopped, I found that my mind was really busy and I always had to deal with a busy mind. Even as a teenager.yeah, I think I learned some bad habits to help to deal with that busy mind outside of work and outside of activity. I knew that if I was skating or if I was playing guitar or if if I was immersed in I could find that necessary distraction to find, yeah, was a way for me to distract myself from my thoughts.

But when I stopped and particularly, if I was trying to go to bed or, was alone with my thoughts that would become quite overwhelming. And one way I'd learned to deal with that was through, substances that's not a really sustainable, technique for dealing with that kind of thing.

yeah, but I guess that was the 90s. That was the beginning. 

Radim Malinic: how would you define a busy mind? is it something that, because obviously you mentioned that busy mind slowed down and gave way to your work. So your work,helped you to deal with it, but is it something that Was with you, or [00:05:00] your busy mind was with you from younger age, or did you start having this busy mind symptoms from teenage years?

How did it work? 

Luke Lucas: I guess it's like an anxiety thing. a busy mind is just, being trapped in your thoughts in a way, in thought loops. And I guess through meditation and through other practices that I've learned since then, I've recognized that, there is depth to the mind that exists below the thoughts.

And that's, what the practice is really good for. It allows you to, turn your attention inward, to these, deeper states of awareness that have. An inherent stillness to them. and you begin to, I guess through frequency of practice and repetition, you begin to, identify with that, part of yourself as yourself as opposed to.

I guess if you don't have a capacity to go beyond the thought, you think you are your thoughts, but really you are the witness of those thoughts and that witness consciousness that, you experienced through meditation is your true self, actually, I think the vast majority of our thoughts are our true selves.  

[00:06:00] particularly helpful, or relevant even to the given moment. And I think it's quite easy to be,thinking of the past or worrying about the future. And in doing so, you're missing what's going on right front of you in the present. 

Radim Malinic: let me take you back to the beginning of your career or your creative life, because we find creativity sometimes as a refuge, like a sort of shortcut to gratification, like obviously it helps us to detune from life outside and focus on the work.

with your creative practice, for those who don't know, never heard of you or haven't followed your work, obviously you've come from magazine culture. That was your first business. And then obviously now you've been very known for your typography, your lettering, all of that stuff, which has been exquisite and I've been fond for years.

And, you find your own really nice corner of the world of the internet and creativity that's very ownable to you. How did that work through working from your early, career steps through those phases of magazine and then being a freelancer?

Luke Lucas: so when, I started a magazine with my friend [00:07:00] Jamie, when I was at, the first year of my, tertiary studies at Melton school of art, and I actually didn't have an intention to become a creative. I was just studying, for something to do. I was interested in, art and I was interested in, graphic design, but I didn't necessarily think that was what I wanted to do.

And then through the beginning of the course, me and a friend Jamie decided we'd start a magazine having no real knowledge of how to do And we begun, and I didn't actually even own a computer at the time. So we'd use the computer rooms at school. So we'd study during the day and then work on the magazine at night.

And, between Jamie and myself, we did everything for that magazine. We did the photography and wrote the articles and sold the advertising, did the design and layout. And from a design perspective, it was absolutely kind of rubbish. it wasn't a particularly good design project.

And that, I guess we didn't really know what we were doing, but from an exposure to the publishing industry perspective and I guess learning the business of design not from I guess that side of [00:08:00] design it was so valuable and yeah, that was the beginning of my career so that lasted about three years I wouldn't say it was a particularly successful business.  

We actually had a third partner that, this is a bit of a tangent, but we had a third partner that developed a bit of a gambling habit and he had an issue with poker machines and he ended up gambling away a lot of the advertising dollars from the magazine.

So we had this situation where, we had to pay for the printing of the magazine and, we weren't able to do so we ended up picking him out, but we were left with this massive debt. And we ended up, working for many years beyond the life of that magazine to pay that debt off which sucked, but that was also a valuable learning experience.

but yeah, we were working, after hours on the magazine, stubbing during the day. And I guess the end of that first year of school, we were absolutely exhausted and we decided to drop out of school. So that was, I didn't even finish that course. and I never went, so I'm not trained in design [00:09:00] traditionally.

I guess a lot of what I've learned has been through experimentation and just diving headfirst in and having a cane. I guess an interest in design and wanting to know everything I can about it just through reading and through observation.so that's, business started and We ended up publishing eight issues and distributed to 14 countries around the world through that magazine. So it did get some reach, but it wasn't, a successful business by any means. 

Radim Malinic: It sounds like you've taken on quite a big chunk of responsibility at quite a really young age.

And having someone who's gambling away your advertising money. That must play havoc with even grown, mind, because that's a lot of responsibility to actually be, to be left with a debt. And obviously you mentioned to deal with something like that, obviously the substances come into play or, how did you deal with it at that time?

do you have any tools or did you not? 

Luke Lucas: I had no tools at the time. So I guess my, tools were substances that I was working like I was essentially a workaholic.and I was exhausting myself, as a way [00:10:00] to quieten the mind, but didn't work and it was a fast track to burnout, I guess you would say was not a healthy, smoking cigarettes at the time as well as smoking a pack a day.

I was, working my ass off during the day and then getting wasted at night and then, rinse and repeat. That was What I did every day and it was at a time, I guess I had my 21st birthday and was working like I wasn't really having any downtime, either at that time, but.

Yeah, that was, the way it began. 

Radim Malinic: Yeah, think what you're describing I can relate to it, not necessarily from the 21st birthday, but there were birthdays when I cried in a chocolate cake, because I was just so exhausted. It was just like, I can't go on like this, which I think that's what I should have thought because I carried on for another few years, just, Carry on, carry on, carry on until you realize you can't go on no more.

it seems so exhilarating when we get to do something so exciting, like creative projects, even though they could be so risky, yours, but it gives you almost like a superpower. It was like, wait a minute, I wasn't exactly [00:11:00] anything. a few days ago. Now I'm running a magazine. I'm a designer.

I'm running a business. this is something that you're making out of nothing. And it just feels out of ordinary. and that gives you almost that feel to do more, more, more and more until you realize, yeah, I can't do any more of that anymore because it's just, it's impossible.

as we talk about nineties and the lack of tools, you almost wish that we had some of our wits about us much sooner and actually help ourselves much sooner, because it almost seems inevitable that we have to go through, and burnouts and stresses and almost like working for ignorance until we realized that there's a better way to do this.

Would you agree? 

Luke Lucas: a hundred percent agree. I think you need to be ready for it. I particularly like a practice like what I'm doing, which is quite disciplined in a way you need to be ready to be, for me, it was like a non negotiable after I realized that there was a way to experience.

Life without that busyness. it's very hard to go back once you've had a taste of stillness. I guess but you have to be [00:12:00] ready. I think If you're not, then you try it and give up. 

Radim Malinic: I like that you use the words stillness.

And I want to trace the path from the busy mind to stillness. So at what point did you realize that, there is another way and that you can do better? Because I know that it was your dad that introduced you to meditation. Is that right? 

Luke Lucas: yes. So I, recognized early that the, substances weren't working for me, so I, went sort of cold turkey on that stuff and, that became unbearable in a way and my dad suggested that I go to this, Buddhist meditation center when I was living in Melbourne at the time and they, hold weekly, group meditations there and I thought I'd give it a shot.

I had nothing to lose and I went there with him. and they taught what would be considered a concentrated style of meditation. And I really enjoyed it, and Ibecoming acquainted a deeper aspect of myself. I hadn't really been in touch with that before and, it sort of,[00:13:00] opened my eyes maybe there is another way to experience, life.

it is a concentrated style, so I guess concentrated styles of meditation are. require, as the name suggests, they require an element of effort and concentration. And it was quite good in that it helped me to cultivate greater focus. particularly in my work, I could really tune out, outside noise and can really focus on what was in front of me.

And that did help me to be very present with what I was engaging with at that time. And that's, what the practice is. I guess a concentrative style is where you direct your attention at. It can be something like your breath or something, like a flame at the exclusion of everything else. And you find, stillness through that concentrated awareness So that's, the nature of that practice. But I did still find that when I wasn't engaged that, that I still had a busy mind. So it didn't necessarily tick all the boxes, but it did give me a taste, of that stillness that existed at a subtle level of awareness.

Radim Malinic: So when you talk about a concentrated style [00:14:00] and the exclusion, so mentioned it helped your work. What sort of changes did you see when you started actually focusing on your work through this practice? Because We would like to achieve flow states. We would like to achieve that sort of deep focus, you know, and push the overwhelm outside, but we don't always create the right conditions for our work.

So we don't necessarily, are able to achieve flow states per se. So in your early practice, what sort of change did you see with the word? Because, find that stillness that were searching for? 

Luke Lucas: I think flow states really, that's probably the correct term, that's what I was experiencing.

I'd lose time and I'd be so immersed in my work even at the time, I guess I could have been working in a really busy environment and everything else ceased to exist and I could just become one with whatever I was doing. That happened relatively quickly, actually.

 I think that was probably biggest shift that I noticed at that time through that kind of a practice. 

Radim Malinic: You mentioned there's, few different categories of meditation. So you started with a concentrated style. What was your progress [00:15:00] into, would you do now?

Luke Lucas: so there, a few other styles as well. there's more, a contemplative style of meditation, which is the kind that you might experience in a guided meditation. Okay. meditation, which is more like a journey. And I did, experiment with those styles as well. they're almost like little holidays in a way, little mental holidays.

you probably find lots of these online and there's probably apps that do it as well. And I was practicing pretty regularly that concentrated style. So I was group, group meditations. and I did some retreats with them. bumped into a mate of mine that I used to skate with in the nineties who also suffered from a busy mind when he was younger.

And actually became a meditation teacher, but he was teaching a style called Vedic meditation, which is, it's probably like a third category of meditation where you are initiated into a practice. your own, personal mantra, it's technique that is rooted in, Indian culture. And, your personal [00:16:00] mantra is almost like a, it's not, like a mantra is in an affirmation or a word as such.

It's more of a, frequency. So the way that your nervous system interacts with this, particular frequency, it, excites you, it has a natural kind of gravity to it, and it draws your attention inward to more, subtler and subtler states. And the deeper your attention goes, the broader your, it's like a deep and expansive, stillness.

I'd say the deeper you go, the more stillness you begin to experience. And it's almost like it's capitalizing on. The mind's natural kind of tendency to search for what is most appealing. And the deeper you go, the more content your mind is. And through that contentedness.

You experience greater levels of, I guess mind ceases to search for something interesting because it's experiencing something that's more and more interesting and along with that comes out like a contentedness that brings stillness, if that makes sense. It's like a byproduct of stillness, but you begin to recognize that stillness is always there [00:17:00] beneath all the noise.

It grants you distance from the noise, but you're still able to interact with that noise, have more control over it. You can choose which thoughts you want to engage with by having that distance, it gives you the ability to discern what's useful and what's not, what's relevant and what's not.

And that allows you to be less reactive and able to respond more dynamically to what's actually important.

Radim Malinic: Yeah. How would you define the word mantra? 

Luke Lucas: so mantra is based on two Sanskrit words. Manas, which is the Sanskrit word for mind, and Tra, which is like a tool. some people refer to it as like a mind vehicle or mind Tool, and there are different types of mantras. So there are some mantras that have an inherent meaning to them.

And by using your mantra, you are trying to cultivate particular quality or, some mantras are associated with different sort of deities and or you might be trying to, cultivate a quality [00:18:00] associated with that. whereas the practice that I do, the type of mantra is what's known as a, beja mantra or a seed mantra.

And it has no inherent meaning. It's not in the way that it's used in other practices of might, but the way that we use that mantra or the mantra that you're initiated in has no meaning. It has an energetic quality and a vibration to it, but it can change, the mantra can change in your mind in the way that it presents.

and the practice is more about directing your attention to that and allowing it to do, it's almost like a surrender practice. You're directing your attention to this mantra and allowing it to present how it presents. And, if you find yourself in a thought, once you recognize that, you just bring your attention back to your mantra.

And that's the process of going in and out of recognizing that you're no longer with the mantra and then going back to your mantra. 

Radim Malinic: description there, trying to find a stillness away from the noise because we live in a world full of distractions and I feel we're getting more of them, more of them, like [00:19:00] wherever you look, whatever you do, like it's just been any distraction that was at 10 already is now dialed up to 11 and just feels like we are making our lives.

A lot more difficult than it could have ever been in a way, it's more exciting from capitalist perspective, if you want to see that end of dopamine addictions or, like success addiction, obviously we've got more and more that we can do and we can see what other people do more and more and more.

Yet, I think in what you're describing, it seems to me like we actually get in a way as far as we can from our stillness, unless we really work on this. So how would you define distractions?

Luke Lucas: I guess.if we allow ourselves, we can pretty much exist in a perpetual state distraction. think that particularly with the advancement in technology and the iPhone, having that, thing in your pocket, which for most people is an addiction. and it is the source of so much of our, numbing, people use it to numb.

So that the social media scrolling, doing scrolling is a form of numbing and people use it for, even like [00:20:00] through the news. People develop porn addictions or video game addictions or there's an abundance of distractions out there. And all of those things distract you from yourself. And if you are in that kind of, constant state of distraction where you're going from one thing to the next without actually experiencing that stillness, I think it makes you, for one thing, I think it makes a lot much harder to find.

Inspiration. It's much harder to recognize and, be in touch with your intuition. And it makes you much more easily manipulated too. I guess if you don't have that kind of tether to true self, you go wherever the wind takes you. And particularly as as a human, I think you need to find stillness just to be able to be true to yourself and be a better person.

But as a creative, I feel like,To be clear and receptive to creative inspiration is such an important part of our job. And if you're unable to find a way to do [00:21:00] that, and I'm not saying meditation is necessarily right for everyone, but feel like some kind of a way to experience stillness away from distractions is a really important part of being or to be able to do our job.

you need to be able to experience that. I think. 

Radim Malinic: I like your point on inspiration because a lot of people will put their hand up if you ask them, do you use social media for inspiration? yeah, of course, like scrolling, but what you said beautifully is a tether to your true self.

We don't always know at the beginning what our true selves are. because we are still mature and we still are brewing, we're fermenting, developing of who we actually want to be. So to use a distraction from actually finding your true self, you can easily spend time online trying to work out what makes you excited or what you want to be or what career you want to emulate.

So it's almost like we, dip the carrot And in this addictive substance and go, look for what you want to be, but watch out, it's impossible because obviously [00:22:00] our generations, and I don't want to sound like a boomer because we're not, but we lived a life more mindfully because we didn't have the extra levels of noise in a way, I'm always using the joke by Des Bishop, who said, when I was younger, I was always mindful because I was on a bus.

staring at the conversation, mindful, I was doing this, I was standing in the queue, mindful, because you had nothing else to do. In a way, you could be thinking over your autonomy, have your thoughts with you, you do that stuff, but you don't have, the way to to escape the present moment by saying, okay, what just happened in the news in the last five minutes?

Or has anyone posted a new comment to my LinkedIn post? That didn't exist, whereas we have it all now. 

Luke Lucas: Yeah, I think one of the most valuable things in terms of creativity is the capacity to be bored. don't think that it really even exists anymore. People don't give themselves the time to do that.

like can say it with my kids they, find it very hard not to being,with a device or with the TV or with video games [00:23:00] and their friends do too. And if you drive past any, bus shelter or a train station and look at what the kids are doing, they're all, got their faces down in their devices and, I guess when we were kids, and I don't want to sound like an old, fart, but you used to look out the window and look what the birds were doing.

 I think, having that, boredom is what forces you to, entertain yourself in different ways. And I, think that's where, creativity really blossoms in that kind of environment. And I think also with the way that we're consuming content these days, And we're not actually, consciously choosing where we want to go.

It's almost pushed on us. I think that's, robbing us of, an opportunity to steer in a different direction. Like it's funneling us in a particular way. And I don't, I think that's necessarily healthy either. 

Radim Malinic: I think it was Brian Solis who once said that information overload is our own choice, it's a symptom of our choices, we can choose what we do, but again, I remember Tim Cook did an interview with Dua Lipa [00:24:00] on her podcast and he said, she asked him like, these devices are very addictive and he said, Oh, we doing something about it.

I'm like, wow, what is it, Tim? He says, Oh yeah, we give people the notification center, we give them people the timer. I can't remember the exact what the tool is called, but like it gives you the overview of how much time you spend on your phone, which is apparently going to make you more aware of the time you spend and therefore spend less on time on your phone.

But that's like giving heroin to heroin addict going, when your teeth fall out, remember you've gone too far. like it's just, very, very addictive. And when you as you just said,kids sat on the bus shelters, people on their phones, on the trains, in pubs, we are scared about, sorry, that's generalization, but it feels like we are almost scared about being in the present moment, because, something's happened, I think the levels of microcommunication that we've created now didn't really exist, but because everyone else is doing it, it's maybe hard to instigate some sort of change, because, Everyone's got good intention, we all agree that these [00:25:00] companies that, are monetizing our attention on their platforms, they're not necessarily malicious, but unfortunately this is where we ended up with this initially unregulated world.

And this is what we've got because there's no manual for social media. So boredom is a very good word that you said because It's so easy to be addicted to your phone, especially what's in it, what's outside it, for example, what's in our world. So finding, your true self and inspiration outside all of this might one day be a true art to to connect to yourself.

Luke Lucas: Yeah. it's interesting hearing here in Australia, they've just passed legislation to ban social media for, and I'm not sure how they'll enforce this, but ban social media for Children under 16 be a bit of a game changer if they can pull it off, but, I don't, I actually know how, they'll manage with that.

I was asking my, youngest son who's 12 about it this morning. I said, how do you feel about that? Because he hasn't, got a social media account. And he said he's, quite relieved that, that's happening. So maybe it'll work for that generation. But I think. The [00:26:00] ones that are deep in it right now that use it way to, particularly like Snapchat and way they communicate these days.

It's the way they interact with one another. I wonder if they can work out how to do that without, those tools. you see them when they, um, get together and they'll be sitting at a table or whatever, but All be sitting there with their phones, even though they're right in front of each other.

They're looking at their phones. Yeah. 

Radim Malinic: I think in the UK, the government, I think it's called the wind of Darfing. start talking about something similar, but yeah, let's see. maybe little, too late, who knows? Because it's just because, you've given, given very immature mind something so addictive, which is psychologically, no, it's so addictive that I can change not their own pathways and, changed how they see life for future. But, you once said that the perpetually distractions are sort of way of living through suffering, almost like a discomfort of being. Would that be ancestorial or is it a contemporary, discomfort of being? How would you define this?

 Is it something that we've [00:27:00] always had I think it's part of being human. There's like an element of, and Buddhists are well aware of this, aren't they? That kind of, I think there's an element of suffering in life that always exists. and to be able to distract yourself from that, is appealing. I get that.

Luke Lucas: And that's why people get pissed. And it's the reasons, some people do it for just to have fun as well, but guess a lot of the time it's in the form of escapism, isn't it? It's escaping reality. And yeah, there is a way to exist, beyond the, I guess a lot of the suffering is in not being able to be present.

I think if you're able to be present, Suffering is, reduced in a way because you're not, worried about the future in the same way, or you're not obsessing about what could have been done better in the past or, allowing yourself to be a victim in the same kind of way. 

Radim Malinic: It makes sense when you say that, people try to mask the question, they think they will get the answer in the drink bar, lets them forget the question temporarily because I think, What [00:28:00] you use as a tool, as a meditation, to get away, let's say from the discomfort of being, the suffering.

It's seemed like the right way to do it because obviously if you do it the other way, which is obviously masking the problem for a short while, only multiplies and gets out of control. Because, When you talked about, tethering yourself to your true self, it's sometimes hard to even know that we are actually having a problem, that we're living in a suffering because we just feel that societally, you see so many people in a similar situation that you think, maybe that's just how we are, this is how it's been almost like.

imposed from some older times, like how we were brought up, not always people actually worked on themselves. Therefore, we didn't necessarily knew, we didn't necessarily know how to get out of these sort of situations, how to get out of these sort of states of mind. So I think we've asked more present enlightenment about how we actually can deal with these things is definitely a way forward because obviously you must [00:29:00] have seen how your meditation practice has totally changed.

the way you work, I know the way you live and how you operate.

Luke Lucas: A hundred percent. if I look back at myself, prior to this practice, I had no idea there was another way of being. And when you think about your mind being the filter of everything you experience, it makes sense. If you think about if everything you're experiencing is filtered through that mind and that mind is.

in an anxious state, then that kind of taints every experience with that anxious state, or if you're in a depressive state, or everything is tainted, it's not, a true experience, so you don't recognize that there is any other way, because it's all being experienced through that same kind of filter, that when you, get a taste of what it can be like, that becomes quite, or because it's a relief, but it also becomes addictive, you want more of that, because It feels so right and true and, it helps to peel back layers a little bit and, see what really is.

Radim Malinic: What would you say to someone who says, I don't have [00:30:00] time to meditate? if you say, there might be other way, you can try this and that. And I think a lot of times, I think meditation is seem like almost of effort, okay, what do I need to do? Like, how do I get into this?

Because it's pretty much like all the other things we do in life. you can't just sit back, relax and within five minutes being in total Zen, as you've been describing so many layers. of unresolved issues and so many realms of, things that we've been dragging with us for years and years and years.

So it takes time to cut through it. You're not going to run, I don't know what's the speed for, a mile or whatever, but, to be a good runner, it takes a while to be a good swimmer. It takes a while to be a good artist. It takes a while to be a good meditator. It takes a long time to do it properly.

So what is your normal sort of reaction to people who, if you tell them you meditate? and they would like to try it. What is the skepticism or what is the pushback or what would you tell them? that, is the sort of breakthrough barrier. 

Luke Lucas: I guess most people will say they're too busy to meditate and they're the same people that will spend three hours a day on [00:31:00] social media as well.

I think it's about, are you happy with the way you're living at the moment? Do you want something to change to, change the habit of being yourself requires a level of effort and.particularly, if you've got some deep ingrained patterns of behavior that, you've developed over many years, it does take some effort.

And all I can say is that. It may seem like you don't have time, but what you'll find when you begin a practice like this is that you become way more efficient and the way that you use time is way more effective. and in my experience and what I've seen in my students as well, they have way more time to do what they want to do because they're not obsessing about things that are irrelevant.

They're able to engage more. fully with what they're dealing with at that time, they're more available to the needs of that time. So that makes everything move more, efficiently and, effortlessly. [00:32:00] 

Radim Malinic: I like your answer that people sit down too busy to meditate, but yet they spend three hours on social media.

That's exactly it. 

Luke Lucas: You can see it. and that's where the distractions come in. If if you're like constantly, that is a practice in itself. Like I make a conscious effort to leave my phone at home. If I go for a walk or. if I'm working, I'll put my phone out of reach. just simple, techniques you can use to make it short circuit, that kind of instinct to pick up the phone.

And every time you do that, you lose like 10 minutes, if it's distracting your train of thought or,with creative work, it's like momentum base. You get into a groove, and if you break that groove, then you go, back a few steps.

And if you're able to just. Focus on your task and allow it to evolve without distraction. You'll be able to get through that task much more quickly. 

Radim Malinic: I sometimes feel like the modern life and modern creativity, modern business is like a double edged sword because you can be anything you want to be.

Like you can reinvent your life. You can reinvent your career. You can do that. But. It's almost like we've got too many options now. Like [00:33:00] we don't have too many gatekeepers stopping us from doing too many different things. So having that option to almost cop out, okay, I can finish this project on time, or I can actually just pick up my phone and check if that someone replied while I'm waiting on the reply and stuff.

Because when you think about it, a phone was originally developed so we can have calls outside our house. we used to have a landline and now we're like, okay, you can make a call from your car or whatever, from a bus stop. And now we've got phones in our houses that basically we just use them as a sort of microcosm of the hyperconnected world, looking at it going, what have I done?

Because yeah, can put my hand to heart that currently I'm so addicted to my phone. but not even getting anything really useful out of it. That's the problem. it's just, you do these rounds and you're like, okay, sometimes you're winning, sometimes you're not.

And sometimes you're thinking like, I need to be better. So it's just, my technique is just to stick it as a camera on the monitor, like obviously using it in the day, just end up forgetting about it. And it's just, it's just that even that little tweak really works. But 

often do you meditate and how do you make it? time for it. And, how would you tell those people who don't [00:34:00] have time to meditate? How do you tell them how you do it? 

Luke Lucas: for me now, I guess meditation is like brushing my teeth. If I don't do it, I just feel gross. so I definitely, do two practices a day and I do a lot of breath work as well now.

So I shop and change between the two and I am quite disciplined in that. I know that I feel shit if I don't, or shitter, if I don't, I don't do a practice, so I just do it and it's a non negotiable. I guess in the beginning it it required discipline, but, the more I've done it over the years, it's more of a devotional practice.

It's me looking after myself and I know that it's nurturing, that practice makes me feel better. And that's something worth asking too. Like if you, have been sitting on your phone for the last half hour doing scrolling, how do you feel after that? Do you feel like something's been taken away from you?

Or do you feel like you've gained something from that? And becoming more aware of. of how things make you feel can also help to curb your behavior a bit, I think. That's 

Radim Malinic: a really good way of looking at it,because I don't think we ever [00:35:00] think about a transactional value because we're making a platform more valuable by spending time on it, but we don't get much back from it.

That's very, very right. I think it was once, described one of the techniques, as relaxing, also as, beneficial as sleep. I think that's one of the techniques that obviously can give you as much refreshment as, a whole sleep. And I once did one session of Yoga Anidra. And I kid you not, I woke up the next day, because it's a sleeping meditation, and I woke up the next day and my mind has never been emptier. I just never felt lighter in my head. It was almost unthinkable. I couldn't really join the dots because, yes, I was mostly asleep through the class.

But somehow,how the class was conducted and what it did, makes you realize how much heaviness we carry around. it just blows your mind, literally blows your mind. But from the stillness perspective, because I was empty and I was just literally like pining to feel that again, because I was [00:36:00] unbelievably, beneficial and refreshing.

Luke Lucas: Yeah, I think, we're in a, chronic stress and fatigue epidemic. I think everyone's not sleeping enough and sleep is really the only way, if you don't have a stillness practice, it's the only way to decompress and deal with, effects of that stress response. and accumulates over time.

So it's almost like in meditation practice if you think of your mind almost like forest that can, without attending to it, can develop a lot of, crap on the ground that makes it easily, it can ignite which is quite a relevant kind of analogy here in Australia we have bushfires, forest fires, Part of the preventative tactics used by the emergency services to do what they burn off all the deadfall and the leaves and stuff to allow it have some kind of resilience to a spark that might cause a massive bushfire.

And meditation is a way of clearing that clutter so that you have greater resilience, to things that might set, typically set you off [00:37:00] and Yeah, so having a way to deal with that accumulation of stress without sleep and Nidra is really good for that too, like you mentioned, Yoga Nidra, I think having, even if you might have said you were asleep, but maybe you were just in a deeply restful state, which is super valuable.

We need more of those, states. We need to experience that more. that's, that's where we repair. 

Radim Malinic: for example, with sleep, we call it sleep hygiene, but obviously it's our brain gets the hygiene, basically like all the crap from the brain is drained back up when we're asleep.

in the meditation state, is it's Do we emulate that? does it have a sort of chemical reaction in our body? So is it mainly about the mind or is there actually a physical aspect to it? 

Luke Lucas: No, it absolutely works on a chemical level. It's one of the most effective ways to deal with excess cortisol and in your system.

And, yeah, on a, chemical level, meditation is super effective,in the same way that deep sleep is, or even they say it's mostly more effective than sleep, And it actually improves the quality of your sleep having a meditation practice as well. You're able to drop into deeper states of [00:38:00] sleep, more easily.

And it's interesting, I wear a, um, an aura ring, which is measures sleep quality and that kind of stuff, among other things, but, it recognizes when I'm meditating as well. So I can see where my heart rate drops to a really low level and my, body temperature increases and my heart rate variability increases during the practice.

so they're all positive markers how my body's responding to that in the way that, sleep does similar things. 

Radim Malinic: So how do you know about and see if your creative work, because you have officially become a meditation teacher for, a few years ago and you run online sessions and do you teach in person as well?

Luke Lucas: I do both. Yeah. So I'm still a full time designer, so that's what I do for the bulk of my living. And I that. I still love that job. I love teaching as well, so I do both. but normally I do the meditation stuff after hours, so I'll do that on weekends, so I'll do that in evenings.

but yeah, that's how I just balance between the two and I've been advertising it a little less lately. [00:39:00] Just been more responding to personal interactions when someone's interested. If I was having a chat, then I'll, do a course with them, as opposed to like actively pushing it too hard.

just, yeah, I kind of, mix it up. 

Radim Malinic: I think that makes perfect sense, actually having someone who's not properly interested to actually come to you and start with a curious and inquisitive mind rather than trying to, convince the people on social media, watching the scrolling and clicking on Netflix to say, Hey, yeah, actually, how about this?

Because from my personal experience, like I have rediscovered meditation in my early thirties after a really horrific burnout. And it was the way to find a peace in my life. like some of the peace, I'm going to rekindle a bit more and connect back with myself because I was just in a constant, and this is, actually almost pre social media, like I was actually on a constant treadmill because to, we just got Behance and the numbers were coming up and have I got enough followers?

Because it's unregulated, it just comes out. We don't know how to deal with it. And When I talk about meditation and when I talk about being in present moment, people like, [00:40:00] sometimes see this as a lot of efforts to get into, it's a lot of, work.

Whereas when you think mindfully, when you think like, how can I just help myself to even just answer a phone call? I know that People make fewer and fewer calls these days, when you could see okay, there's a feedback session or I've got feedback session with my clients. It's almost just to take, like a few good, decent breaths and actually exhaling.

And let's say do like a pursed lip breathing and that kind of stuff. You're preparing yourself for what's to come because when it comes to sports, we stretch a bit, before and after we do things like we have a sort of clear out that there's not as a lot of knowledge around how you can help yourself not to break yourself real quickly.

But it's almost that just even convince people to do Veteran just a little bit on the way to somewhere seems like an uphill battle because every time give someone a copy of Mindful Creative or someone reads it, they'll be like, Oh, I wish I read this book much sooner. And it says in the book,if you're thirsty, you're [00:41:00] already dehydrated.

If you need help with mental health, you're already in trouble. it's a question is how do you anchor yourself so you don't drift away too far? Yet. It comes almost like of pharmacy effect, okay, I've got a headache. What tablet can I take, what can I do now? And I think it's almost, the work that you do and the way you've been spreading, honestly, it's, I think for those who pay attention, it's an incredible way to actually understand what can you do with your current state?

Obviously, how can you,as you said, find better intuition, inspiration, and more stillness. Because. We chat a lot of shit about this sort of stuff, when we're busy, we blame on everything and everyone, like we don't look after ourselves. We think that we can approach flow state just by showing up, like, how's your life, not in tatters, how's your bank balance, bad, how's your eating habits, how's your sleeping habits, not everything's bad, but what are you expecting today?

Oh, magic, of course, I'm expecting flow state, not from nine to five. And you're like, no, it doesn't work that way. So yeah, live the work. that you're [00:42:00] doing and, of spreading. Is there daily bits that you have in between or does it say, so you bookend it in your life that, you'd meditation in the evening or, do you have any helpful tips on like how you can bring that sort of practice in a daily sort of doses?

Luke Lucas: I think the more you do, practice like meditation, the more self aware you become of what's working for you and what's not. And I know that I've got, a toolkit of things that I use throughout the day. Like you mentioned, if I'm going into a feedback session, I've got certain breath practices that I might do prior to that.

So that I'm establishing myself in a good state and breath work is actually really immediate. the effects that it gives you, like it's, different to meditation that it's very instantaneous in that it can calm down your nervous system. If you are feeling like a little concerned about a particular confrontation, even if you're like in an extreme heightened state, like a panic attack or something, meditation wouldn't work for you.

You you can't meditate your way out of an anxiety attack, but you can breathe your way out of it. learning what tools work for you. I [00:43:00] do a combination of things. I'll move my body in certain ways. I'll do exercise. I'll do breath work. I'll do meditation. of these things, are all tools that I can use at different times of day and different situations that help me to, be the best I can be at that time.

so it's just a matter of working out what works for you and having an awareness of what you need at any time to be able to do what you need to do. 

Radim Malinic: if you allow me, I would love to talk about your toolkit because you said you move in a certain way, you can't meditate yourself out of a panic attack.

I know that, sadly from personal experience, I mean, laugh now, but obviously I wasn't laughing then. In your toolkit, obviously, we talk about feedback sessions and all that stuff. So what's in it? And could we start with breath work? Because I'm interested in what would you do?

there are different breath practices you can either use it to activate if you're feeling fatigued, or you can use it to balance. If you're feeling a bit off or you can use it to sedate if you're feeling too heightened, and there's all different techniques that I guess, can vary depending on, what you're trying to do and how much [00:44:00] time you have as well.

Luke Lucas: But an example of a sedating one is where any kind of breath practice where the exhale is longer than the inhale. And one that I use. All the time is a three part breath called 3 9 6 where you inhale for three counts, you hold for nine counts and you exhale for six counts and you can do that for even three or four minutes and you'll notice that you really can, calm down quite quickly.

so that's, quite a helpful practice to do if if you're about to go into a situation that will be quite intense. it really really calms down your nervous system. And there's another one, the physiological side, that I've heard, Andrew Huberman talk about, which is supposed to be one of the more effective in that state where you, do a deep inhale relatively full lung, and then you sip in a little bit extra, and then you do a long exhale.

And that, works in a similar way where there's really long exhale and a shorter inhale. So that's example of sedative [00:45:00] practice where an activating practice is like there's a breath practice called a breath of fire, which is quite a rapid breath practice and it's,focusing on the exhale, but in short bursts.

You probably can't see me because it's not a video podcast, but it sounds sort of like, a, controlled hyperventilation and it creates a lot of heat and energy and it can wake you up. That's another, another example of breath practice. 

Radim Malinic: So in your toolkit, what else is in there apart from breath work? 

Luke Lucas: Um, Well a good grounding practice is just being barefoot on the earth and sometimes go out because I work from home in a studio out the back of my house and I'll just go outside barefoot and rake leaves which sounds really boring but It's really grounding as well and I quite enjoy that if I'm feeling like a bit I just need to get away from my screen and I need to move my body and I'll do that.

even if it's for 5 minutes, that's really effective for me. I live near the beach, so I try and jump in the ocean. I do laboring work as well on the side [00:46:00] sometimes, because our job is quite sedentary. Being designers, spend hours on end. Sitting down, I'll sometimes do a few hours of laboring.

I've got a good, good builder friend that, always needs an extra pair of hands. So I'll, I'll do, that for four hours few days. this keeps me fit and healthy and it all helps. 

Radim Malinic: That's extra ordinary what you said. obviously it's a perfect way to balance things, but in order to be a tradie on the side, that's pretty impressive.

but what do you have behind you where people can't see is actually one of my most favorite photograph of the ocean, which is behind you, which was like a black granite. I don't know the name of the photographer.

Is it Brian someone? I don't know who it is, but that sort of stillness of the ocean that I feel like it's,a mid, rolling swell. What we see sometimes with creativity, especially how I'm trying to explain in my talks and my books, that we expect creativity to be that sort of calm lake with no ripples, with sunset, beautiful sunset, like we think that we can just sit and just do our sedentary work.

Kind uninterrupted with, plenty full of good tunes [00:47:00] and good coffee and not expect any sort of kryptonite to show up because we've got our superpowers, but creativity is like that ocean, like sometimes it's calm, but sometimes it can just wipe you out when you least expect it.

And you're like, how do, how do I deal with it? 

Luke Lucas: I think it's, particularly likeAs an industry, it's pretty, pretty toxic and not very conducive to creative inspiration. It's highly stressful. if you're working for an agency, chances are you're not paid very well and you're working very hard.

And as a freelancer, like myself, I don't know what I'll be working on in a few days from now. It's literally like that fast, things come in and out. And yet I still have, weekly bills that I need to pay and, Stress is like the, if you had a spectrum, it's the opposite end of the spectrum of creativity.

It's a very narrow and, restricted state and creativity is an open and expansive state. and I also believe like you can't think your way into an idea either. I feel like ideas visit you and [00:48:00] you need to be able to be receptive to recognize those ideas. And if you're in a stressful state, only the very loudest ideas will get through.

you won't experience the subtle. And I think in order for us to be able to not only complete our job, you obviously need to be able to do your job efficiently, but to be able to, be inspired, you really need to be able to experience the subtle to recognize those ideas at the earliest.

Stages before they disappear. 

Radim Malinic: So you mentioned that you don't always know what you're gonna work on in couple of days time, which means obviously there's a high turnover of clients and of course you might have some sort of regular magazines and publications you work with, but through being a freelancer.

You come across a lot of different people, a lot of time, like there's no set style, just like we talk about, there's no set manual for social media. there should be a sort of common idea how we should be exercising creative briefs and projects and how they should be delivered, but people are different.

There's different cultures, there's different habits. How do you find it obviously working with sort of high frequency turnover of [00:49:00] people and just, almost tuning in into their style and how much do you need to change or do you need to change your way of working or do you try to work in your style or work in your way that helps you to deliver easier and quicker?

Luke Lucas: It's really so varied. I mean,I've been a freelancer since 2011, So I've been working this way for quite a while now. It's not for everyone. I'll I'll be honest.but it really suits. the main reason why I went into it in the beginning was because I just become a dad. I wanted the flexibility to spend more time with my Children and I didn't know if it was going to work.

but yeah, you do work with all kinds of people and, you're there to serve them in a lot of ways. So I think you need to be mindful of that. when you're dealing with people, you're there to help them realize that,and yeah, I guess if they're coming at you with all kind of stress and anxiety, part of my job is to, balance that out as well, and reassure them that everything's going to be fine because it can be, try not to get too sucked into other people's [00:50:00] stuff.

And that's part of the beauty of working essentially on my own in this space that I'm in right now. I don't have to deal with. I can limit what I deal with, in the outside world quite a lot. And so even if I am working with a creative team in an advertising agency or, different people in a publishing house or whatever, I'm exposed to them during a briefing, and then I have nothing to do with them until the next time I have to send over a piece of work.

And, I can really, just focus on what I need to do. I 

Radim Malinic: found from my own personal work, as in working on myself, that you start spotting particular characters and patterns that in early stages of career can derail you. You're thinking, Oh shit, do I need to change everything? Am I doing the right job?

Is this going well? Then you realize, It's got nothing to do with me. Their panic and their freak out is about accounts, about deadlines and something else. it's got nothing to do with me. I just found myself in the crossfire of other people, mismatched emotions and, as you said, them being trapped in their own noise or their noise on the other side.

And this is [00:51:00] why when we start talking about benefits of meditation and benefits of actually working on ourselves, you find that. Not only, as you said, you unlock inspiration in a different way, but also you unlock understanding how to deal with other people, because most of the problems that we take on as freelancers or creatives that we take on very personally, they've got nothing to do with us.

Luke Lucas: No, we'll do it. And I think also, you develop a resilience, more of a resilience and, you become less reactive and you can recognize, like someone might say something that could be tensely be. quite hurtful, that before it blows up, you're allowed to work. you can recognize that's just them and nothing to do with you.

Whereas if you were caught in your thoughts, you might just explode in response to that and, throw fuel on that fire and, that's not going to help anyone. so yeah, it in a lot of ways. it helps you to see, the person behind the hurtful comments. it also helps you. you to recognize what thoughts that you might have in response to that are actually useful in that [00:52:00] situation.

Radim Malinic: since you talk about resilience and hurtful comments, let's talk about being a parent. let's close this conversation about being a parent. how has your work and life changed when you became a dad and started, so obviously you said you started freelancing because you became a dad.

But life of a parent freelancer is different to just to be in a freelancer in your early twenties when you can do anything, you can smoke yourself, to sleep almost every day, but how has your work changed? And how do you find the balancing of, the work and life and responsibilities and did you find benefits in being parent and did you find any challenges in there?

Luke Lucas: I think it's definitely been the most profound thing in my life, becoming a parent, it's changed the way I look at the entire world, and it's such a privilege to watch a human grow from scratch. and seeing what they to and seeing how completely different they all are. I've got two boys and they're completely different from one another.

My youngest is right into heavy metal and whereas my oldest is like right into [00:53:00] sport and they couldn't be any different from each other, but there's a mutual love and respect for each other that they helps me to want to be a better person. being their parent and be a positive role model for them.

And so my experience as a parent and a freelancer has changed as they've gotten older. One's 14 and one's 12 now, but, when they were younger, they were home all the time, so I would, I would change my working habits to be available to them when they wanted to interact or hang out. so that might mean That I was working later in the evenings than I do now.

Now they they're at school all day. so I can essentially work a full work day, but I still, I want to be able to take them to school. I want to be, available to them when they get home from school. And that's important to me. And I really think that, the benefit from having an available parent, I'm always available To them. And I think that's a great thing. put them in as a growing, human and growing young men. 

Radim Malinic: I remember when people ask, if you're a parent, doesn't get any easier? 

no, it doesn't. It just gets different. I think that's the whole [00:54:00] thing. And I think that's going to summarize is also creative career.

Does your creative career get easier? Does, delivering projects become easier? Not always, it just becomes different, because you always come with some sort of obstacles. You always come to drive up to some walls and you're like, okay, I need to overcome something because if it was that easy, we will lose interest.

Like this wouldn't really wouldn't work. 

Luke Lucas: in the, we're in the problem solving business. So like that's our playground. We were presented with a challenge and we need to. come up with a solution for that challenge. And there's always a new challenge.

And, Yeah, I've been doing this for a long time and I'm not bored at all. there's always a new breed. There's always a unique new playground, to play with. 

Radim Malinic: I truly admire what you do because I haven't had a fair share of, working in a similar field, doing similar work for quite a while.

And I think I find a natural, the next step in my career. but. Always makes me super happy to see that you just keep going and you keep getting better at it. from my technical perspective, I was like, how did he do it? What is he doing this? what, what is that

[00:55:00] 'cause you're gonna see, always to find something different. And I think you know sure you tethering yourself to your true self. Finding that deep inspiration, finding that stillness, I think kinda shows that. Maybe you found a key to longevity in a career that, sometimes we blame the work, sometimes we blame the creativity, whereas you find the answer within yourself to make sure that, you can to all of us that actually the work is not a problem, it's actually us.

Luke Lucas: Yeah, that's definitely not the work that's the problem, it's the way we respond to it. And I think that's the only thing we can control is how we respond. And everything else is outside of our control.

Radim Malinic: Dude, keep doing what you're doing. It's inspirational. Your meditation stuff is inspirational and I thank you for your time today. Thank you. 

Luke Lucas: Thanks for it. Cheers. 

Radim Malinic: Hey, thank you for listening to this episode of Mindful Creative Podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, [00:56:00] questions, or even suggestions, so please get in touch via the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, Radim Malanich. Editing and audio production was masterfully done by Niall Mackay from Seven Million Bikes podcast, and the theme music was written and produced by Jack James.

Thank you, and I hope to see you on the next episode.