"My biggest personal challenge is that I want to do more than I'm capable of ever doing, being just me. I'm open to so many things." - Dalia Ishak

In this episode, Dahlia Ishak shares her unconventional creative journey from accidentally discovering graphic design during university to running a food and beverage branding studio. 

Born to Egyptian parents in Northern Ontario, Dahlia initially pursued sciences before stumbling upon design. 

Her career took her from advertising in Australia to entrepreneurship when she created a pioneering coworking cafe in Brisbane. After building a vibrant community, circumstances forced her return to Canada where she rebuilt her life through new cafes before pivoting to a branding studio following pandemic challenges. 

Throughout her journey, Dahlia has balanced design work, hospitality businesses, and teaching at Shillington College, consistently finding ways to connect creativity with community.

Key Takeaways

• Dahlia discovered design accidentally despite always being creative – she hadn't made the connection between her passion for collecting designed objects and actual career possibilities.
• Using her design skills, she created a brochure that established the first student exchange program between her Canadian design school and an Australian university.
• After experiencing burnout in advertising, Dahlia found new creative fulfillment in Australia's coffee culture, leading her to open a coworking cafe.
• Rather than abandoning creativity completely when running hospitality businesses, she maintained connections by hosting creative events and building relationships with local designers.
• When forced to relocate to Canada, Dahlia used her hospitality business to meet people and build a new network in an unfamiliar city.
• During the pandemic, she pivoted to helping hospitality businesses survive by offering design services, which eventually evolved into her current branding studio.
• Throughout all her ventures, Dahlia has consistently taught design at night, finding it energizing rather than draining.
• Her story demonstrates the value of transferable skills across industries – her hospitality experience directly informs her current focus on food and beverage branding.
• Dahlia's journey shows how creativity can manifest in different ways beyond traditional design roles – as a facilitator, connector, and community builder.
• Her biggest challenge remains wanting to do more than is possible, highlighting the entrepreneurial drive that has fueled her many successful pivots.

Mindful Creative: How to understand and deal with the highs and lows of creative life, career and business

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Dahlia: Um,  [00:00:00] I used to really reach out to a lot of like, um, events and creative, um, anything that was happening in the city and like host things at the shop. So my connection to creativity was as a facilitator, observer, connector, and just like host. And even though it wasn't designing, I was building like bonds and a lot of like, Genuine relationships with people who were creating all day. and that kept me stimulated. And if the cafe didn't have that side, I don't know, maybe it would've been different. But that allowed me to stay really connected to the industry. 

Radim: Welcome to Mindful Creative Podcast, a show about understanding how to deal with the highs and lows of creative lives. My name is Radnich and Creativity changed my life, but it [00:01:00] also nearly killed me in this season. Inspired by my book of the same title, I'm talking to some of the most celebrated figures in a creative industry.

In our candid conversations, my guests share their experiences and how they overcame their challenges and struggles. How they learn to grow as creatives a creative career in the 21st century can be overwhelming. I wanted to capture these honest and transparent conversations that might help you find that guiding light in your career.

So Thank you for joining me on this episode and taking the first or next step towards regaining control of your creative life.

You ready?

Radim: My guest today is best described as a full-hearted creative who only eats snacks and has a pension for wearing too many hats. My guest today is best described as a full-hearted creative who only eats snacks and has a pension for wearing many hats. Indeed, she's a designer, entrepreneur, and educator, and that's just the beginning.

Her career took her from Canada to living and work in Australia, where she built vibrant community through hospitality. When she had to [00:02:00] return back to Canada, she had to rebuild her life, and she did yet again through more hospitality ventures. Since then, she's pivoted into branding, following pandemic changes throughout her, throughout her journey, she has balanced design, hospitality, business, and teaching at Shillington College consistently finding ways to connect creativity with the community.

It's my pleasure to introduce Dalia a.

 Hey, Dalia, welcome through the show. How are you doing today? 

Dahlia: Good, thank you. Thanks so much for having me. I, uh, love the show and it's just so nice to be here and to spend some time with you. You 

Radim: are most welcome. I'm looking forward to, uh, finding Mark. I'm looking forward to finding out more about you, about your explorations, about the things you've been doing because you've got quite an interest in angle on creativity and  uh, we'll get deep on it.

Um, for those who I have never heard of you, how would you introduce yourself? 

Dahlia: Um, I currently, uh, run a food and [00:03:00] beverage branding studio in, uh, Canada, uh, in a city called Hamilton near Toronto. Uh, but my background is a mix of agency work and hospitality work. Uh, I run a number of hospitality businesses over the last 15 years as well as doing contract design work for agencies, um, both of which giving me a lot of freedom and independence to kind of bounce between the two.

And, uh, post pandemic losing Our shops have shifted into starting a studio in food and beverage. Um, I also teach design as well online. And, um, yeah, I'm just really passionate about all the different ways design and creativity and entrepreneurship can open up new possibilities, um, for people. 

Radim: There's a lot to unpack.

There's a lot to unpack. I mean, we, you and I, uh, had a coffee in Toronto and I was just fascinated. I was fascinated the way you did things and how you find a way to restart, like how, you know, there's always a chapter and then it, [00:04:00] phases onto another chapter, but your accent's not Canadian.

So let's go. Well, Well, you are hailing from another place, is that right? 

Dahlia: No, I am Canadian. I have my Australian citizenship. I lived in Australia for 11 years. 

Radim: Okay, so I'm so sorry. So I need, go back on this one. I 

Dahlia: have, uh, gotten like an osmosis, weird mixed accent through my husband who is Australian.

Radim: Okay. So we are gonna, we are gonna edit this. So you actually are Canadian, but you moved to Australia. Shit, I was literally convinced that you are Ozzy. 

Dahlia: I feel Ozzy, Ozzy is, uh, Australia's the first place I've lived for more than a year, uh, since being a teenager, so, yeah. So 

Radim: it does, so, okay. Alright.

Alright. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna cut that out. So I normally ask people to rewind it back and tell me what's the first point of creativity, like how did you get into, do what you do and kind of like trace it back a bit, little bit, you know, 'cause some people are a totally different background and some people are very much in the past straight away.

So take me back. 

Dahlia: Yeah. So, uh, my parents are Egyptian. I lived, I grew up in a small city in Northern Ontario and Canada, and the mix of the two led me down a path where design and creativity was like, not even on my radar, you know, uh, I was going into sciences. It was a bit of like the default, um, in terms of.

Second generation of that culture you go into like science for doctor, pharmacy, um, anything like that. And it was only a few years into university. I was visiting a friend who was doing industrial design in Carleton. Uh, that I actually realized that there's courses out there for that kind of, you know, had this side of [00:05:00] creativity and design and they had like a student lab that they would all work in.

And I was just completely enthralled. Um, and at the time that department was the industrial design department and the architecture department. So not knowing still what graphic design or commercial design or design was. I applied to the architecture department. 'cause it just seemed like the closest thing of they had a class that just like.

I kind of got a glimpse of when I was visiting that seemed really interesting. Uh, so I, you know, made a folio. I was always very creative, but not in a way that I thought could lead to anything, or not in anything I had given much thought to. Uh, so I put together a folio, applied for the architecture school.

Uh, you know, got in, got the interview of, you know, kind of mapping out my semesters, and I was talking about this one design class that I saw over and over. And then the dean actually was like, do you know that there's a course called design, like communication design? You don't have to go into architecture to do design.

 Uh, so I was blown away. I, I transferred into design at [00:06:00] a, school back in London and kind of just absolutely dove into it from there. Um, so. It was not on my radar at all. Even though my room was covered in design, I used to collect pop cans and tape them all over the wall. I used to keep all the badges from all my jeans and every bag that I ever, you know, got from a store, I would keep in a box, but for some reason, I never made the link that could be something that people do 

Radim: do.

I think, I think that happens to a lot of us that suddenly, that eureka moment are like, oh, oh, wait a minute, what's this? Oh, I, I, I, what do you mean can do it? I thought it was for other people to do this. Um, yeah. Isn't that interesting that you are surrounded by the things you admire? I think it's a bit like sort of discovering, and you can be in a band like, oh, wait a minute.

I, I, I, I get an instrument. Oh, this is good. Oh, I can designer. 

Dahlia: It's like you collected, you love it, but you don't make the association that there's humans out there producing that, and that you could be one of them. It was like completely disconnected for me. I had never made that [00:07:00] connection. 

Radim: So what was your treasured, uh, can or design from that time that you had around your room?

Like what was that?  Well, 

Dahlia: it still makes that impression. I really had like pop cans all over my wall, like, uh, on the window sill and my window. I taped them all up like a frame. And I had all the back to back World Series Blue Jays Pop Can limited edition ones. Um, when the Blue Jays were like a big deal in Canada in the nineties when they had won, you know, uh, baseball was really gaining a lot of like fandom and fun.

Uh, and then I had the original crush can that I still have now that I just really loved. And yeah, I used to just tape them all over the walls and I just had ads and labels and cans and paper and just everything everywhere. And I, really honestly just never even thought that that was something to do.

So yeah, it's kind of fun looking back now,  uh, you know. Where I'm at because, um, yeah, it wasn't on my mind at the time. Growing up, 

Radim: do you remember your first creative pursuits? Like, did you try to [00:08:00] replicate, mimic, um, your inspirations? I mean, I don't think you were sort of redrum Blue Jay's logo over. I mean, what did you do? I mean, 

Dahlia: I mean, yeah, I, was always very, very creative and that's what's odd about it. Like, I used to, I used to win a lot of like, um, you know, illustration contests and I used to have illustrations published in the local papers and I used to write a lot of stories. Um, but I, again, like, because my parents were very science focused and we were in a smaller city, it just felt like a personal interest.

It didn't feel like there was a career path in it or any avenues for it. It just felt like a creative outlet. Um, I used to, yeah, paint a lot, draw a lot. I used to like. Really go overboard and make, you know, very ridiculous personal items for friends and boyfriends. In terms of like, when you look back, it's clearly graphic design, like very graphic designs, letter love letters and notes and stuff.

But again, I just really didn't know that that was a thing. It was just [00:09:00] something I did for fun. 

Radim: Did you feel you ever, I mean, as you said, your creativity was your, did you ever feel with your creativity, since it was more of a hobby, did you ever feel like you might have to follow your parents' footsteps?

Like was there ever sort of any sort of pressure or did you 

Dahlia: Yeah. Yes. I mean, it wasn't pressure. It was what they knew. So my parents, uh, like I said, they're Egyptian, they moved to Canada. They're doctors. They're of the mindset that. And maybe it was in my head because when I did approach them to switch into design, they were actually a lot more supportive than I thought.

Um, but you know, for them what they thought was a good path was just, you know, you go into one of these paths, it's stable, it's secure as very, you know, very not smart, but we were pushed to do a lot of homework. I was good with my grades. So, So, you know, you know, it just felt like a, sure thing, I guess for lack of a better description of like, you know, you do this, it's good, like, you know, you study, you do well, and that's that.

Um, but, uh, yeah, I just, sorry, what was, yeah, so what, what was the question? Sorry. Yeah, it was, not on the radar. you know, and also them being from Egypt, uh, we lived with, my grandma was Egyptian. She didn't speak English. We weren't exposed to a [00:10:00] lot of pop culture. We're from a northern city that was a pretty low key city. It wasn't like very urban. So all those things together, it really just felt like, it was like, again, I didn't make the association that there's people that live and breathe this and do this as careers.

To me, they were just a bunch of stuff I collect and like a hobby that I had. And I was good at arts and I liked it, but it didn't, go further than that. And, um, yeah, my parents, it's not that they disapproved of it, but I just don't think it was on their radar either, you know, and we just kind of moseyed along that way.

Radim: So your creative career taking you from snowy cold Canada to Australia pretty quickly? Um. Exchange program through designing a brochure. Let's find out more about that. Um, so yeah, how does one go From one side of the world to another? 

Dahlia: Yeah. So, uh, I, when I found out about graphic design, I ended up going to a college in London.

'cause I wanted to get into, straight away, I was in it like a [00:11:00] hundred percent. I used to sleep, you know, at the labs. I had a laundry basket that they would let, me keep at the computer lab, at school that had my stuff in it, because I would just spend so much time in there. And I was in there all nights, all evenings.

I used to try to get friends to come and they eventually just let me leave a basket of my stuff so that I didn't have to like, keep bringing it back and forth. Um, so I was very, very in it when I found it. And, um, when I graduated from college at the time in Canada, I was nudged to get a degree. And, um, you know, I did have job options, but.

Not knowing much about the industry, I felt pressure to have to get the degree. So I went back to school. So going back to school immediately following the same program over, I was getting really bored and restless, kind of doing it again. So I started looking at other programs or possibly exchanges, uh, came up as an option to just kind of mix it up, um, and get something new out of it.

And, um, at the time I was [00:12:00] interning at an agency and there was an Aussie there and he was telling me about this amazing school in Australia where they had like a lab at the school where you did real live projects for real clients run by the school. And I was just enthralled. Um, but our school didn't have a program to Australia.

Um, so I. I went around the school, I was at OCAD at the time, took a bunch of photos, I got a bunch of signatures, and I put together this brochure about OCAD and sent it to the Exchange program people, uh, for the exchange program in Australia. And was like, is there any interest to do a partnership with our school?

And they said, if you can find someone to come, like to do the exchange with, if we can find someone. Then we'll give it a shot. So, uh, they found someone and that person moved into my apartment in Toronto and I moved into my friend's parents' house in Australia and we did the first launch of the exchange and it was totally made up.

They lived in my apartment with my [00:13:00] roommate. Um, it was like completely off the tail of like putting this whole brochure together and kind of like really pushing for it to be an avenue. And then from there, there was an exchange program with OCAD and uh, Griffith University in Brisbane. And I became kind of the ambassador for students after that to like help with the program and offer advice.

And then that roommate that lived, uh, in my apartment when they moved back to Australia years later, I ended up staying in Australia. After, that I never came back. Uh, they ended up dating a friend of mine. It was just like such a small world. They just showed up again. So yeah, it was, um. pretty amazing.

But honestly, for me, that was like the first indication of, you know, you know, if you have these skill sets to just make things happen and, you know, you just have to make it look enticing and look real and put the information and the passion out there. And this brochure I still have that I made and it was just, you know, looking back, it's so dorky, but it really worked.

like a little booklet about the [00:14:00] school. 

Radim: I mean, we're not gonna talk about a topic of restart, but I think we should start with a topic of start, because this is quite remarkable just to invent, well, I mean, create an exchange program because you heard about Australia being an interesting place and you made it happen.

I mean, this is remarkable. I like it a. 

Dahlia: Yeah, when I think back on it, you know, you're like 20 years old and you're like, that's nuts that we did But that's the power of graphic design. You know, you make a good little brochure booklet and it does wonders. 

Radim: I think it's, yeah, if the power of graphic design and power of actually innocent, you know, you're like, who cares?

Let's give it a go. Like, what's there to lose? Right. Um, so, so you stayed beyond just that one sort of, you stayed beyond your exchange and Yeah. You Kind of progressed in your career. So  like, what was that thing about Aussie life? Because we get, I get on the show, I get a lot of people from different places, you know, kind of moving around and discovering new experiences and, you know.

Always sort of, I'm always trying to sort of understand like, so sort of like, what did it feel like? Because, you know, again, I'm grinding this, this, this, his analogy to death. But you know, when you're on holiday, everything smells good. the food tastes better, the music sounds better cause you've got sort of time to absorb it.

So in your experience moving from Toronto to Brisbane, what did that feel like? What was that, what was the first draw? Did you feel like you're in a movie? Did you feel Yeah. What was that like? 

Dahlia: Yeah, um, it felt like a holiday in a movie and it never went [00:15:00] away. It was honestly like I went at that age of, you know, peak passion, excitement, the world's open.

Um, and I lived in Brisbane. Brisbane was actually, interestingly, Brisbane was just up and coming. Uh, relatively at the time. This was probably like 15 years ago, or almost 20 years ago now actually. Um, so Brisbane was a city that, uh, you know, it wasn't a country town, but it had kind of developed or originated, um, from being smaller and more, more of that.

And at the time there was this, like, people would think that you'd have to go to Melbourne or Sydney to like, you know, have opportunities and, you know, people were dismissing Brisbane. And I was really, really lucky that when I arrived in Brisbane there was a handful of people that decided that, you know, we're gonna make stuff happen in Brisbane.

We're gonna. Stay in Brisbane and develop creative culture and community and food and beverage and everything here. And it was really [00:16:00] honestly, um, amazing to be at the starting point of that and the starting point of that intention and that energy. Um, you know, There was, you know, a handful of really talented, uh, designers that stayed and they would do art events and studio launches and all sorts of like festivals and music festivals.

And then there was hospitality people that stayed and there was music people that stayed and everyone just stayed and kind of put all their young creative energy into the city. And it actually was incredible to watch it literally transform the city over that 10 years. Brisbane has since become like such an incredible, incredible world city.

Um, and we watched it happen on the grassroots level a little bit from my industries anyway, and it was really cool. 

Radim: Um, our mutual friend Matt Haynes, um, From the Design People Design conference. Um, yeah, I mean, he told me his story about, think his story is about 15 years old, like how he started a conference and like how we went from just being excited to, I mean, he's still [00:17:00] excited, very excited, but like how we sort of grown organically and like, actually proven that it's okay to be wherever you are, um, because you know, it's about what make you of what, what you make from the place.

It's also spoken to boys, uh, Kyle and Paul from Penny Bridge. You know, they're on Palm Beach. I need to get it right. Um, again, like I think what I'm getting about Australia is that sort of, that protectiveness of the land. Like we got local clients and we got disk clients. I'm like, no, it, it's, it's, you know, I'm sure it's fine, but you know, just because, you know, I think creativity is not.

Good. Just because you're from a certain place, you know, creativity is universal. Like, breaks barriers, it breaks borders. And I think, you know, if you are good and if you really feel, and if you live and breathe what you do, you know, it doesn't matter where you are in the world. I think that's then, especially being in places where you can make something out of this, I think sounds absolutely magical.

Dahlia: Yeah. Being part of that growth. Yeah. Sorry. I agree. Yeah. Just being part of that development and seeing it like, um, Matt and the Penny Bridge Boys, you know, been so fortunate to see them from those early days develop into huge. Beacons of, uh, [00:18:00] the industry. So it's so cool. 

Radim: Yeah. Actually I need to mention, yeah, Jim O'Brien.

I spoke to Chris Doherty the other day. It's just, I mean, Australia's got these so many spearheading characters that have done amazingly well, and I'm fascinated, like, I like the music scene. That's Australian music scene is, is, is fascinating. I like, I love Ha as Coyote, but I don't get their graphics.

It's just like, like sort of weird gory def metal band kind of thing. Like, what are you guys doing? But you know, why not? Like, this is, and, and it works. That's the best bit. It works. And you might have second doubts, like, you know, the boys from Penny Bridge. You're like, are we a bit too different? Like, you are fantastically placed for everything.

But anyway, let's bring it back to you for a second. So things are happening for you in Brisbane. sort of,  you add a sort of nexus of the new and you managed to get into advertising. And you've got no sleep. I think that's the sort of standard thing that happens. Right? So how was your life changing?

Dahlia: Yeah, so I was really, really lucky, um, to get a job in advertising from, um, graduating from that exchange program. And I had done, um, quite a lot of work on my graduation project and got some attention and managed to get a job. Was, very lucky. I, I put a lot into it and it landed and, uh, the result was I got sponsored, um, to be an art director at an agency in Australia, which completely changed my life.

Um, it was really, really exciting as a young person in you know, finding an avenue to stay in a city, in a country that I was absolutely in love with in every possible way. Like, creativity, culture, community, the people, the [00:19:00] lifestyle. And, um, you know, getting to work in this very still, uh, mysterious, super exciting industry of, you know, all the various kind of design, advertising, creativity concepts.

And, you know, that was the era of time where all the ad agencies, I don't know if it's still like but you know, they all had like pool tables and arcade games and beer fridges. 'cause they're like, it's gonna be really fun to spend all your time here forever and never leave. And you know, when you're young you're like, this is the best thing ever.

Um, but you know, you know, of course you're like never playing the pool or doing anything. You're literally just working. But it was still fun. You felt like you were part of this fun, exciting world and it was really fun and exciting. But it was also like of that time. You're at the studio all the time. I was doing allnighters all the time there on the weekends all the time.

It was, I'm old enough that this was back in the day when we were doing pitch work overnight and day work during the day. So like, we're doing [00:20:00] client work during the day and pitches would be like from 6:00 PM to 3:00 AM and that's just like how it was. And you know, you are young and you think it's so exciting and you're like, oh my gosh, I get to have ideas all night.

And they bought me dinner and it didn't last. Um, I mean it did in that it was really cool, really exciting. Uh, I did it for three years. And then I just started feeling a little bit disconnected to it. You know, I wasn't connected to the clients. Uh, the thrill of having a creative idea and seeing it happen was gone.

The campaign nature of advertising, it wasn't totally connecting to, you know, it's like a lot of in and out. There wasn't a lot of like, it didn't feel like you're creating anything for me at the time that I felt really like there was substance, or I felt really connected to it just felt very superficial to me and very disconnected.

Uh, you know, not connected to the client, you're not connected to the outcome of the solutions. You don't really know if you're [00:21:00] making an impact. You're kind of there all the time. Um, like there was a lot of, you know, you had to really love the advertising industry and I just, I guess, found that I wasn't connected to that specific type of industry.

Um, and at the time I was really, really falling in love with the coffee industry in Australia. So I was noticing just honestly how exceptional the coffee was everywhere and how dedicated everyone in those shops were to the craft and service and quality of the experience of the product, of the coffee.

 Everyone was like spending, you know, people spent time in the cafes. It wasn't just like triple decker takeouts, you know, you really like went in, you had your beautiful coffee, you went to work. They were like just my escape spaces whenever I could get to. And I mostly would get to them more than anything else 'cause we're always at the studios at night.

Um, so I started kind of dreaming up this idea to go [00:22:00] freelance and. Um, potentially open like a freelance hub, a coworking space that had a mix of a coffee shop and a space that I could work out of and decided. To go ahead and try making that. So it was a mix of just kind of feeling a bit disconnected with advertising and feeling really, really drawn to this coffee culture.

Radim: I mean, there's so much to unpack in this answer, so much to unpack. Um, just a quick answer on this one because I've got a question for you. Um, did you feel like bringing your basket with you, because it sounds like you were very much, uh, chained to your desk, but there time maybe not by your choice? Um, I think that's, you know, it was one of these things like when you see a toothbrush on someone's desk, you're like.

You know, at first it looks exciting, but then you were like, okay, that's still a toothbrush on your desk. Like this, this, this, this shouldn't be happening. But I think again, that was that sort of in a way of age of innocence, you know, like at that time, like when we, when we rewind, you know, 20, I mean, for some people 30 years, you know, like it was exciting, but then you can't imagine doing it now, and you can't even imagine putting people [00:23:00] through it because how much of your time must have been spent on absolutely futile work?

Because I was once trying to get a developer, uh, to do some work, like, you know, part-time. And he was like, look, I've just done my six good hours in the day. I can't do anymore. I was like thinking me and then I realized, yeah, he's, right because I was doing about 16 hours a day and I wasn't doing, you know, most of them.

Right. So I think that's the thing. But, um, I just wanna ask one question before we go to the coffee culture. You said that you won a project, did you, did a project that got you the sponsorship. So what was the, what was the graduate project that you did? 

Dahlia: Um, I did this, um, non-viral type of campaign before the age of Instagram and Facebook.

Um, I found a photography studio at my school and we made these paper sets and paper outfits. So I made myself a bunch of paper clothes and a little paper room that she photoshopped me into. And everything was made out of paper. I was wearing white paper in a paper white room, and I started this like little, um, project called Drawing on Dahlias.

and I printed little postcards, um, and vacuum sealed them with like a black, red and blue pen. And the idea was that you would draw. Um, fill in the paper, draw whatever you want, draw like patterns, graphics, and then [00:24:00] email them back to me. And then I would exhibit those at my graduation as opposed to my work, like aside from my work.

And it was just a way to connect to agencies. So I sent these all out to a bunch of agencies and designers. It was a way to be a bit more interactive with graduating and have a bit of fun. And, uh, it ended up working really, really well. I got a lot, a lot of feedback, uh, a lot of interest, and I literally got a job offer out of it that allowed me to stay in the country and ended up living there.

So it was, um, I have old snapshots of it. It's so funny looking back on it now. But there was this set of four cards. Um, we did it so that the photography student can use it in their folio. I could use it in mine. And it was just like a fun way. The whole concept of it was this blank slate and everyone relating to that empty piece of paper and people just responding to it however they want, but it also meant that I could draw into it and color into it for different studios in different ways and kind of make messages for them and send them out.

[00:25:00] So it was pretty fun. 

Radim: That's amazing. Um, yeah, I, I think, I think what I'm picking up from all of this is just that you always think with, you know, an idea and, and a plan with mind in mind. Like, where does it take me? What do I do? Um, let talk, let's circle back coffee now. 'cause obviously I wanted to fill in those blanks.

see. That's what I did there. Um, um, you know, as you know, I run a indie coffee company and sometimes, like, how do I explain to people how much better is great coffee? You know, cause people sometimes would expect something sort of magically different, but like, no, like, it's not, Better. It's just different.

So what was your first encounter with great coffee? Like 

Dahlia: I would challenge you to go to Brisbane and have a bad coffee just as the baseline. And then having a great coffee in Brisbane is just unparalleled in, and I wasn't even that passionate about coffee, like I like coffee, but that completely changed me in becoming something that I just really can genuinely enjoy.

And it really is like  so, they put so much time and [00:26:00] effort and focus in everything, you know, in the roasts and the beans and the blends, but also in the care of like pulling the shot, steaming the milk, the environment. And every single part of that process generally, you know, as a whole in Brisbane more often than not is just so. so.

Considered and thoughtful, and the people there are so invested in it that you do feel it and you taste it. And it's just about that, um, focus of those details. You know? again, like on a superficial like overarching level, you maybe wouldn't notice, but when you add all those things together, I think it's like impossible to ignore and impossible not to feel that like in that cup and really enjoy it.

And. It really came through. it was really inspiring. Honestly, 

Radim: I have to say, when you start looking into coffee process, like what makes the difference, like even just the sort of decimal difference in the temperature, like it, and, the [00:27:00] method you make, like, it actually makes a different coffee.

You're like, wow. How do you explain it to a normal person that that's what they potentially should be doing? Um, but um, you've opened your own sort of coworking space and it wasn't that sort of, it wasn't that long after you've landed in Australia, you were only 25. That again, as Dalia like kind of building her own future, like inventing your own dream future.

I mean, I mean, that's quite daunting. Like what, what do you have to do to actually open a space? Because, you know, you rented a cafe, you got baristas, you know, you were running your own business. I. Wow. You don't just talk about stuff, you do it. 

Dahlia: Yeah. Uh, it was daunting. I did not know a lot. I went around to all my, the cafes that I was frequenting and, uh, asked them a bunch of questions and luckily, um, they were pretty open and generous with the information.

Um, because coffee culture there is such an industry path, you know, they're not, you know, baristas are in it to potentially own coffee [00:28:00] shops. Um, the roasters are in it for the long term. There's a lot of support and resources around owning cafes because there's a lot of culture and appreciation to do well with 'em, and it's really embedded in the culture in Brisbane anyway.

Um, so through that there's actually, there was a lot of avenues that was a lot easier to open the cafe there than when we came back to Canada. So the roasters will, you know, uh, give you the machines. If you use their roast, they'll train you. Um, you know, the leases and food permits were more clear and easier to, to, to obtain.

luckily, I had an uncle that lived in Sydney who advised me to only lease for one year first, and then do an add-on just in case it all fails, you know? So I had little pockets of advice, but I also went into it completely naive, completely blind. The idea was that I built out the cafe. My husband's, uh, family.

Does word work in. So we built every, like his, dad helped and him build all the furniture and the, bench and everything. And the idea was we built [00:29:00] the cafe, we built the desks, and I would run the cowork space and run my studio and we would rent the cafe to baristas who needed a stepping stone for their own business, who didn't have the resources to open a cafe, but they could rent the cafe from me and run it as their own business.

So that was like the model. Um, but it quickly fell apart because, um, you know, the baristas. I came and went. It's hard to run a business and suddenly I had to run. The business just seemed like the most straightforward way to do it. So I was, uh, quickly in the position of learning how to run a coffee shop, and that was really hard and quite the learning curve.

I had knew nothing. We were, I was terrible at it to start. Um, it was a big drop from the baristas we had to me running it, we had to get a roaster to come in and train us. I didn't know anything about sales. I didn't. I, it was, it was a mess. Honestly. It was not, did not start well, and the only thing that I had to get through it all was that I was in it.

You just had [00:30:00] to get through it and figure it out and prove hopefully day by day. That was it. 

Radim: Sounds daunting. Sounds daunting. Especially like if people are used to great coffee and then you're like, you get it wrong. There's nothing that, there's nothing worse than a, coffee connoisseur who doesn't get the right stuff in their hand, but you still managed to grow it to a second location.

I I mean, it still, you know, couldn't have been that bad. 

Dahlia: Yeah, it started bad, but it did. We learned quickly. I put in a lot of effort and asked a lot of questions. Had a lot of really supportive fellow shop owners on the street that came in and helped me understand, you know, daily sales and what to do.

My husband actually ended up, uh, quitting his, uh, management job and he went and worked at a friend's kitchen for six months to kind of get some hands on training. He was always a good cook, but like more commercial and then came on to help me run the food side and people rallied around. I wouldn't have been able to do it alone, and we eventually got our foot in [00:31:00] and got a, better space and were really able to like run with it then.

Um, but it was, really rocky to start and it was really hard. Also, what got us through at the time was the novelty of the idea of the cowork space with the cafe, because this is like 20 years ago and in Brisbane. So coworking wasn't really a common term or concept, and working in cafes was definitely not a concept back then in Brisbane for the coffee.

World of like how you live that. And I was coming from, you know, a North American background where it was more common to, you know, set up and work at a shop. And I liked, you know, that stimulation. So this idea of it being a co-work space in a coffee shop kind of put us on the map. So it allowed like people to at least give us a chance and more people to come check it out than they probably would've given that it was so rocky to start.

So, plus we had the desk people using it so they needed coffee. 

Radim: [00:32:00] So this is, so around that time, I mean, yeah, it's still, you know, in your mid twenties or, you know, mid to late twenties. Um, obviously it was a creative, creative twenties, you know, you worked in an ad agency, you did all of this creative stuff, and then obviously you're pulling shots and steam milk.

Um, where does creativity come at this time? Like did you miss it? did you put it aside? where did it go? 

Dahlia: Yeah, that's a great question. I think I was really lucky that the cafe was this, uh, cowork studio space. So we had studios so. so. My one way to stay connected, even though I wasn't designing day in and day out, but I was constantly hosting other creatives.

So everyone using the space was freelancers. where we moved to, there was a lot of design studios on the street. So they would come in, they would use our boardroom for brainstorming to get out of the office. We would talk, I would talk about their projects with them every morning because you become part of people's routines, you know, so you see them every day.

You get to hear about what they're doing at the studio. Um, I used to really reach out to a lot of like, um, events [00:33:00] and creative, um, anything that was happening in the city and like host things at the shop. So my connection to creativity was as a facilitator, observer, connector, and just like host. And even though it wasn't designing, I was building like bonds and a lot of like, Genuine relationships with people who were creating all day. and that kept me stimulated. And if the cafe didn't have that side, I don't know, maybe it would've been different. But that allowed me to stay really connected to the industry. 

Radim: Obviously you, sort of selflessness, kind of looking kind of to give other people space, you know, kind of did, that for her because some people just can't let it go.

Like they, want to be that creative, especially during that sort of, that part of our lives. So that sounded like like an interesting time, like meeting lots of people and actually opening a network through space that, um, that you give them sort of, to thrive. But. This sort sounds quite obviously quite turbulent, quite sort of fun, quite interesting, you know, like up and down, up and down.

But then you're back in Canada, so I, I don't, sorry, let me re run me read that. 'cause obviously I'm thinking like you go from something nice to Canada, but, [00:34:00] so after all of this you find yourself back in Canada. What was the reason? 

Dahlia: Uh, yeah, so, um, I was living a very happy life and it was great running this cafe, being part of the industry, getting the cafe to a place where I could start doing contract work.

I had started teaching at that point as well at nights. And, uh, the building we were in got sold or was getting sold and we were on a very bad lease that I didn't know how to protect myself through not knowing enough about business. And, you know, we basically had to leave. it made the decision really easy, but it also meant that the rug was like, pulled under our feet.

And, uh, we tried to find a space, another space for about a year in Brisbane. We had a fundraiser, people rallied behind, but we just couldn't find the right space. And, you know, everything just disappeared. Uh, we couldn't find our, a new place that would work, couldn't find our foot in. Um, we didn't really have the resources [00:35:00] to invest in something totally new again anyway.

 And, uh, um, you know, my partner and I ended up getting married. We had our a, a child come in, so we decided it was a good time to move back. Uh, to Canada, um, and reconnect to family and spend some time there and just kind of reset. So it wasn't planned. It really came out of the blue and it was a really hard transition.

And moving back to Canada, um, was hard because I loved it in Australia and especially losing the shop and everything as well.

Radim: Did the change of surroundings, I mean, you said it was hard. What did that, what was the, I'm trying to sort of find the right word. What was the main obstacle? Like, sorry, I, sorry, let me just, sorry, I'm gonna start a question 'cause it's breaking up. Um, so yeah, that sounds like a quite hard time in your life.

What was that feel like? 

Dahlia: I. Um, yeah, it was, it was a lot of uncertainty. Um, we moved to Canada. We picked a city that, neither my hu well well obviously my husband's Australian, so we didn't know any cities, but a city that I didn't know that it would be new to both of us. Uh, and this city was a bit on our radar through some, old friends in Canada and they had said, you know, it's creative.

It's up and coming, you know, [00:36:00] it suits your vibe. you know, you might be able to do stuff there. in a good location. So we decided to just go try this city blind. And, um, it was really hard moving somewhere. Uh, I know I'm from Canada, but I didn't move to a city where we knew anyone. We didn't really have a plan.

We had a child. We lost this thing that I was loved. Um, in the shop, the community as well. I was so connected to the community. Um. I loved Brisbane, I loved the energy there, I loved the passion there. And we moved to a place where you don't know anyone, but also, uh, it wasn't at that time, it took a long time to find the creative inroads there.

So, you know, So, you know, you're really isolated. You don't feel like there's any avenues. Uh, it's a bit of a, um, it's an industrial city, so, you know, it's not super cultural, super designed forward, super creative forward. Um, it felt a lot like the town I grew up in, so, you know, just, it felt like going backwards and that you're losing [00:37:00] opportunities.

You're, you know, closing the door on all these bright futures that you were connected to back in Australia where you could have a creative career. It just felt further away and. Maybe not even there. You know, I really had to dig for it in the city and it wasn't as like front facing, you know, it's not a city that's like a super urban city that's just full of designers and music and creative, at least on the surface level.

Um, but after doing a lot of digging and really putting in the effort, we have found that it is actually a really rich city and arts and culture, but it's not on the surface. You had to like dig it out. Um, but that took a long time and it was, um, the initial period was really, really hard. It was a shock to the system and I was, it was very depressing.

Radim: It's kind of a polar kind of opposite to being in Australia, right? 'cause obviously you were, were you landed in Brisbane, you were like, this is amazing. And you go back and like, uh, I dunno anyone, I was like a child and everything changes and I think there's just sort of the, sort of emotions of life, but. You made it work.

You, you  [00:38:00] open an Australian style cafe. Um, what did I mean that, did that work with Canadians? 

Dahlia: It actually went really well. Um, we had nothing else to offer. We tried to do the cowork space, but we couldn't find a lease here that worked, uh, within our budgets and we just couldn't find foot in, uh, like I said, we didn't know anyone.

Uh, I was doing pretty terrible design work for anyone I could find. That was things, you know, that were just like in and out, very low paying, changing, you know, jpeg business card type stuff. Like very old school, like, you know, just surface level. Like just put a graphic on a piece and call it a day. Um.

Trying to get by. I had the, I had my kid. Uh, so really when the opportunity came  um, there was a cafe closing down, we took it over. Uh, it just seemed like a way to at least do something that I. We were passionate about, get our foot in, at least put our eggs in that [00:39:00] because I was really struggling to find avenues in design at the time and, um, you know, really make that a thing.

So we took over the cafe, we turned it into like an Aussie style. So all that means is, you know, really great like specialty coffee, but also really great seasonal light fresh food, which was rarer in in the city at the time. Uh, it was a lot of like standard North American like eggs and bacon hash type breakfasts, and it just stood out and, um, it actually was incredible.

I, I don't recommend that to meet people or get your foot in to, you have to open a cafe, but this is what I love about hospitality spaces is that they're just this melting pot of like literally meeting everyone and seeing everyone. Of all different people kind of passed through and we just got to meet so many people and it really opened up a lot of avenues for me in design and hospitality.

So it was great. It changed our life. We made all our friends that way. [00:40:00] And, um, I think it would've been a much more difficult time without the shop for us. 

Radim: I mean, what an advice, if you move to a city, you dunno, anyone open the cafe. I mean, you meet a lot of friends and you'll, make it work.

Um, I mean, it was a slightly patronizing question saying, did it work with Canadians? Because actually some of the best food I've ever eaten was in Canada. Um, I mean, if you hang around Queen Street West, obviously that there's a lot of stuff there. But yeah, no, I was, remarkably surprised.

Every single time I've been going for the last 12 years, there's just something not remarkable to find, but I. I love the story. I mean, sorry to hear that. Your story is so enriching and sort of full of little details that obviously that has led you to open your own branding studio that serves, that's part of the sector, you know, hospitality and, sorry, lemme get it.

Right. Um, what'd you call it? I've got a, here, uh, what would you call it? Branding for people to hospitality and beverage. So, yeah. So all of that experience has led you to open a branding studio that serves food and beverage and hospitality and events, startups. I mean, you've done work, you've done No, you've, had your boots on the ground.

You've, you've been in the trenches and I would love to believe that all of the experiences kind of put you on a really good sort of, um, on the right foot to offer not only sort of design services, but also consultancy to some of these. Uh, startups and brands, right? 

Dahlia: Yeah. Um, I ran the, cafe for five years before doing the studio.

Um, three good years, two years through the pandemic. And also during that time, pre pandemic, uh, we had partnered to open a boutique wine bar with some friends through kind of meeting other hospitality people through the cafe and also through the cafe, just getting more and more little gigs with food and beverage [00:41:00] suppliers and friends of industry.

Um, and then when the pandemic hit, uh, we had the cafe, we had the bar, um, the bar at the time. Uh, we didn't have any avenues to sell anything at the time. Uh, there's liquor control in Ontario so that the re you can't retail alcohol and as a wine bar, there's, you know, was nothing else to sell when you're closed to the public.

 Uh, so we started a campaign. To help raise money for ourselves and for other hospitality shops. And it did really, really, really well. And through that, everything shifted. You know, my shops kind of disappeared overnight as I knew them. Um, the pandemic hit in this city, um, quite hard because it's not a super robust urban city to begin with.

So with the pandemic and the closures and them lasting so long, the hospitality scene here that was really growing and really vibrant, like really just got. Erased and everyone was going through a hard time, and all the people I [00:42:00] knew were in hospitality. So I was just offering services to friends, just like really trying to help them, like help them shift products to retail online, help them, uh, you know, do all the things they needed to do to survive in that period.

Uh, develop products, um, helping breweries and wineries sell retail to restaurants so that the restaurants could stay open and doing all the labels and yeah, all that kind of stuff. Just really helping people, um, in hospitality through that period. And it really shifted for me. I was like, why not put together these two passions?

I'm really connected to it. Um, it feels right. Um, I'm really helping people. It wasn't like advertising where I didn't feel connected to what I was doing. I could really see the people that I was helping. I. Face-to-face and really make an impact to like, help them get through those times and then flourish beyond.

Uh, so I just by default started like being the go-to person for people whose businesses were struggling pandemic or post pandemic. And then [00:43:00] beyond that, I just started getting word of mouth to mouth to continue and I decided, you know, um, it was really heartbreaking to lose the shots. We decided not to renew our leases, um, post pandemic and focus on the studio instead, and.

I put my energy there. 

Radim: You mentioned four letter word many, many times, and the word is help. Um, because kind of, that's kind of, I think, summarizes the whole of your story so far. Like, you are there for other people because you dropped in something a few minutes ago into the conversation. Which leads me to your third title because in your, bio you call yourself designer, entrepreneur, and educator.

And you said at one stages of being in Australia and you said, I was teaching at night. I'm like, well, well, I mean, I mean, I know you do a lot of stuff. I like where, what are you doing? You're teaching at night, so I've got a, I've got a, I've got a note here. I'd like to ask that. So you're teaching at night.

How did it come about? Because of, because I know that you're connected to Shillington College, but like. Where do you even find time to do, [00:44:00] this? And, you've been doing that for quite a while. So took me through, how did you get into teaching and how did you, you know, see the changes in, sort of online education, design, education, all of that stuff.

So let's talk about your third. 

Dahlia: Yes. So throughout all of this, I've been teaching in the background, it's an outlet for me to share something I'm excited about with people who are, you know, eager to learn and connect through that. And I love it. it's an outlet for me. It's, um, I really get a lot out of it, a lot of energy.

Um, so when I was first working at that agency, I was noticing that a lot of the juniors they were hiring was from the school shillington. And I was like, what is this school? So I looked into it. And, uh, had it on my radar. And then when I left the agency and opened the cafe, I just reached out and said, you know, I'm not spending my nights at the agency anymore.

I'm free at night. Sign me up. It was always a night course. I was two nights a week in person back in Brisbane. [00:45:00] And then online, it's been three nights, uh, a week since I've gone online. And for me, honestly, it is the same as like, uh, having a kid. To me, those things can feel like, obviously there's a lot of responsibility.

It's a lot of work, it's added focus, all of that. But they're truly just an outlet for me of like energy and joy. You know, I get so much out of it. So it actually just keeps me recharged. I really, really, really enjoy teaching. I love seeing students connect and click and, encouraging that idea that like, there's so many paths in this industry and like.

Helping people find their own way. Um, I find really, really enriching and super fun and stimulating. Uh, so I was teaching at night when I ran the cafe, and then when we came back to Canada, obviously took a break from it, but then when the pandemic hit, the school went online. So I've gone back to teaching, so it's been five years now.

I've been teaching [00:46:00] online, uh, nights through all of this. And for me, it's just like my happy time. I switch on at night, um, and help people you know, find these opportunities through this path that they've gone on. It's really cool. 

Radim: I mean, Xi Link has got quite an interesting sort of. Structure. 'cause it's quite condensed, right?

'cause you get, students who, what's the right word to use without using the word slo it. But, you know, like sometimes you can spend four years learning graphic design, whereas shillington, you can, pivot in a matter of months. Um, what's the magic formula? Like, how do you actually, how do you convince people to really pull their finger out and actually change their careers?

do you get people who are talented, curious what's the secret sauce? Because there must be something like in a way of this education that, you know, would you say it challenges the regular sort of university education in a, way that potentially makes the regular education just a bit long drawn and unnecessary?

Dahlia: Yeah. I wouldn't say [00:47:00] unnecessary. Just different. And that's what she intend. Prides itself on as a point of difference is that it's run as a hands-on very intense studio format. You're working in class hours, it's not like assignments and then you go off and do it. We are like critiquing and working through things in real time.

It's, you know, three and a half hours a night for three nights. You get through a lot for a year. It's a year program part-time. And um, what the typical Shillington student is, which I really also connect to and love, is they're usually people that are making some kind of career shift or life shift, you know, that always had this inkling but didn't really know.

So they're not in a position to be able to afford or spend four years studying. You know, they're usually like they've been to school before, or they have jobs, they're like late twenties, like onwards. They've had life experiences and they're taking this risk. To scratch this itch of something that they've always maybe thought was possible, but, you know, [00:48:00] can't invest four years.

And what LinkedIn does is gives them an opportunity or a chance to like delve into it a hundred percent. Just go for it and we will take that and run with it. And if you're gonna put in the time, we're gonna put in the time. And it is very demanding. You cannot miss class. I personally cannot imagine.

These are students who come in after a whole day at work and then spend three hours. I only have to deliver the content and give feedback. They have to make stuff, you know, and they're making it every night. And it's so, so exhausting and I'm so impressed by them. And it's because they've made that decision and they're fully invested and we champion that and take that and run with it.

And that's what's so special about Shillington, is that it's specifically designed to get the most. Practical outcome from that time. Uh, it started by someone who used to run an agency and wanted to [00:49:00] have the graduates be like, ready to hit the ground running. And it didn't matter where you start, as long as you're ready to go and you have to put in the work.

And it is a lot, but they do it really, really well. I'm always amazed by how far these students get in the year. 

Radim: I think there's something magical about the commitment of someone who finishes work and goes and does something what they really wanna do at night. Because a lot of people started their careers when they were still in full-time employment, but they were freelancing at night doing their own thing.

Because when you do what really challenges you, what, what, what makes you light up? You just go for it. It doesn't matter what time it is, you know, we'll sleep later, you know, some other time maybe. Um, so yeah, it was actually nice to learn about it because. I think it's, it's, it's a, it's a right model.

Like, just to get people ready for what's to come because yeah, I mean, I'm not here to be on either side of, the argument because, you know, everyone needs something different in their life, but it does take some graduates a long time to work out what the hell happens next. You know, like, I think, I think there's even a book, no, I'm not gonna mention a book.

 Um, it takes people a long time to work out. What's gonna happen next? You know, like, what am I doing? Like, how should [00:50:00] I do this? And, and I, I'm, I'm, I'm friends with lots of educators. I, do guest lectures and I just try to insinuate and kind of encourage people to actually, just to be a bit more curious.

And I had a wonderful Diana Obama on a podcast recently. You know, it was nice to learn like how she sort of sees the future of education and how she would do it. And like, there's a lot of people I know who are in this space, who are, know who death. I believe students are very lucky to have them because as you said, like not only preparing for that experience what's gonna happen, but you also get people who have been in those trenches and kind of give them the sort of real, um, real life experience on your journey.

Before I let you go, I mean. Is there something that you still wanna do? Because it sounds like you've done so many different iterations, so many different pivots you've lived in, no different places, you've met different people, new people you've created communities. Wow. what's there next? I'm not sure gonna, I don't think you're gonna sit still and just sort of thinking, yeah, that's me down for the next while I think, yeah.

I think that must be [00:51:00] something that you plot in. So tell me. 

Dahlia: Yeah. It's funny you should say that. My biggest personal challenge is that I want to do more than I'm capable of ever doing, being just me. You know, I'm open to so many things and I'm always, um, yeah, very excited and motivated about. Yeah, what is possible?

What can we do? And that's why it's been amazing to meet you. I've loved seeing all the things that you've done and how even you said, you know, you started the podcast to put yourself in this position, to have the podcast and talk to people and, you know, things like that. I love that. So, uh, I do have a long list of things I wanna do.

Right now I'm trying to focus, like trying to get the studio off the ground and figure that out. But, um, I wouldn't rule out having a physical space again. I do miss the social component. Or if not that, you know, starting something that is social. Um, I really do need to or love being around people, and [00:52:00] I think I get that from teaching.

But you know, being at my studio alone all day, I think I do need another outlet of that hospitality, social, just strangers and meeting people and. That side of things. Um, I really love, so who knows? But I, get frustrated that I can't do as much as I want and I have to be patient and figure that out and know that I'll get there.

But, um, definitely have things in the works for sure, and that's why it's great people who you know, just put themselves out there and do things like yourself. So it's been great. 

Radim: Thank you. I think the word restart, I think, or what you call it, restart, or call it pivot or next chapter or second part of our lives or whatever we wanna call it.

Sometimes you realize that the first barrier between you wanting to do the thing and doing the thing is just your mindset. Like, and you know, when I was starting a podcast, I think like. I had a microphone and kind of asked which software to use. But all of what I did, I just booked lots of friends to come on my [00:53:00] podcast, and I just have to work it out, like, just press the button.

And like, as you know, I don't plan any questions and you're like, okay, we're gonna do it. And it's now 65, it's almost 70 hours of recorded podcast in one year. like, yeah. I mean, it almost feels like it's a ritual because you, I mean, I feel quite nosy. I'm generally quite nosy person, and I don't, I mean, I like strangers, but I like having conversation with people and I, know just enough about, um.

When I talk to people about exercise or meditation and kind of stuff, you inbuilt it into your routine. When you don't do it, it's like like not brushing your teeth, you know, you feel a bit dirty. Like you've just, this is the thing. And I'm sometimes, you know, you can have a challenging week or challenging day.

I'm like, oh, at nine o'clock, you know, I'm gonna speak to someone on the other side of the world, and that's gonna be the refresher. And with your businesses, you know, like seeing the real people, like actually making real communities, it's like, it must feel like, you know, like, I'm missing that routine. I think I'm missing that sort of thing.

And I think when we get a bit older, you just realize, I mean, in your case, you've been doing this for years and years and years, but [00:54:00] starting new things, just that threshold, I mean, we lose that innocence. We know that things might be hard, but we've got the wisdom that we've been carrying us as we, sort of, balance out the expectations and the resilience.

You know, like. We know it's gonna be hard, but we're gonna stack it a bit better because, you know, when we, our high expectations, we just don't know how to deal with the fallout. So  um, I applaud you for everything you've been doing and I'm, you know, sure whenever I come back in Canada, which I'm sure is gonna be very soon, there'll be another cafe.

There'll be, just have another coworking space or something that, uh, we'll get together  uh, and celebrate, you know, creativity, entrepreneurship, education, all of that stuff. So yeah, thank you for sharing your story with me and yeah, all do best for your future.

Right. Hey. Thank you for listening to this episode of Mindful Creative Podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions, or even suggestions, so please get in touch via the show notes or social channels. This [00:55:00] episode was produced and presented by me. Riding mileage, editing, and audio production was massively done by Neil McKay from 7 million Bikes Podcast, and the theme music was written and produced by Jack James.

Thank you and I hope to see you on the next episode.