"To tell a compelling story, you need a character facing real conflict. Be willing to explore the uncomfortable parts - that's where the depth and resonance come from."

Matt McCue, editor-in-chief of The Creative Factor, shares his journey as a storyteller and the importance of storytelling in the creative industry. He talks about his background growing up in Iowa and his move to New York City to pursue a career in journalism. Matt emphasizes the need for creatives to tell their own stories and highlights the three key elements of a good story: a compelling character, conflict, and a conclusion. He also discusses the challenges he faced in his career and the importance of pushing oneself out of their comfort zone. In this conversation, Matt McCue and Radim discuss the importance of perseverance, endurance, and taking risks in the creative field. They explore the concept of mindful creativity and the challenges faced by creative professionals. They also delve into the connection between long-distance running and storytelling, highlighting the qualities of resilience and work ethic that are essential for success in both fields. The conversation touches on the power of storytelling to shape culture and the need for creative professionals to be entrepreneurial thinkers. Matt shares insights from his work at Adobe and the future direction of Creative Factor.

Takeaways

• Storytelling is central to the creative industry and can help creatives market themselves and their work.
• A good story needs a compelling character, conflict, and a conclusion.
• Challenges and failures can provide valuable lessons and opportunities for growth.
• Telling your own story and sharing your experiences can help build connections and resonate with others.
• Stepping out of your comfort zone and embracing discomfort can lead to personal and professional growth. Perseverance and endurance are key qualities for success in the creative field.
• Taking risks is necessary for originality and creativity.
• Mindful creativity involves being present and fully engaged in the creative process.
• Long-distance running and storytelling share qualities such as resilience and work ethic.
• Creative professionals should strive to make a positive impact on their communities and shape culture.
• Creativity and entrepreneurship go hand in hand, and creative professionals should have an entrepreneurial mindset.
• Telling compelling life stories with a creative theme can resonate with readers and inspire them.
• Short-form creative exercises can help warm up creativity and get into the right mindset.
• No risk, no story - taking risks is essential for personal and professional growth.
• Building a successful business is crucial for sustaining creative work.

Mindful Creative: How to understand and deal with the highs and lows of creative life, career and business

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Radim Malinic: [00:02:10] Hi Matt, I'm so pleased to have you on my show. How are you doing today?

Matt McCue: I'm doing great. thanks for having me.

Radim Malinic: I am, I was truly excited to actually have you on [00:02:20] because you are one of the true storytellers. I used to actually get quite intimidated as a designer and illustrator to be bombarded with the messages in printed media [00:02:30] and online saying like, a designer needs to be a storyteller. And you're like, Most creatives are kind of lucky to string a sentence together, even, be actually telling their own stories.

But [00:02:40] before we get into that topic of today, for those who haven't heard of you, how would you describe yourself to them?

Matt McCue: Sure. Well, I am a storyteller. I think that's a good description. I moved [00:02:50] to New York City after college to, to become a journalist or writer. And I've been telling stories for pretty much my whole career. I started at Vandy Fair. I was on [00:03:00] the more traditional publishing side for many years, and then I switched over to the brand side and worked for Adobe as their editor in chief for a number of years, then always wanted to [00:03:10] sort of launch my own publication with a big focus on creativity and creative professionals.

So a couple of years ago, I launched the Creative Factor. And that's a sort of a [00:03:20] global publication that tells stories about how people build their careers, how they master their crafts, and how they use their creativity to shape the culture. And so I've been doing [00:03:30] that. I'm the editor in chief of that.

We have, I think, readers in over 100 countries. And I think our stories were read over 100, 000 times last year. I forget the exact number, [00:03:40] but it was a good amount of stories. So I would say I love telling stories. And I would say it's, It's certainly central to my career. And I was remembering we were chatting, you know, we met, I think it was, you know, we [00:03:50] said 2018, we were at a conference and the topic was telling story, so it's a good day.

And now you've gone on to write many books, many stories. So I think you've learned the [00:04:00] craft.

Radim Malinic: Thank you. I mean, it's a compliment, especially from someone like you. you mentioned that you moved from home to New York city. where is, where'd you come from originally?

Matt McCue: I came from just [00:04:10] about the middle of middle America, Iowa City, Iowa, all of our creativity went into our name. We just named our town after our state, Iowa City. So I grew up like in the [00:04:20] heartland, for those global listeners who might not be as familiar as where Iowa is. it's just west of Chicago.

We always just say we're outer borough of Chicago. So grew up there, [00:04:30] spent 18 years of my life there. went to school out west in Colorado and then took a major. Sort of a U turn, or I should say detour, to come back to come to New York City. [00:04:40] I'd never been to New York before, except for one time.

I came here after high school graduation, and my parents were celebrating an anniversary, and my grandparents [00:04:50] were celebrating an anniversary. And the city felt so overwhelming, but I just remember we went out one night for dinner. It was really late. It was after a show. It's like 11 o'clock at night.

 this is [00:05:00] pretty late for me, especially being from Iowa where things closed relatively early. And we walk into this restaurant and it's like packed and people are sitting down for dinner. And I'm like, I don't know if I'm gonna have [00:05:10] dinner at 11 o'clock, every night, but I like the vibe here.

And that sort of was always in the back of my mind. This was a truly electric city. And I've been really just [00:05:20] proud to call it home for many years.

Radim Malinic: So would you say that with, I think we've got some sounds like poetical sort of impression of cities like New York or London or Tokyo, would you say that the sort of [00:05:30] diverse stories from kind of New York, how we sometimes fantasize about these things were potentially a draw? Because, I know about Iowa only because of a band.

There's a band from Iowa. [00:05:40] It's quite famous. And I would say they're in their own right. they've created something which is quite, sort of unique to them. I mean, they're not the only band with masks and stuff, [00:05:50] but they can't put Iowa on a map for a demographic of my kind.

But if the draw of New York, you said like, you know, dinner's at 11 o'clock at night and stuff was that quite A [00:06:00] different experience to back home and to Colorado. Or how would you say that?

Matt McCue: It definitely was. And I was drawn to come to New York, partly because of [00:06:10] the energy, but certainly because of the possibility for storytelling. in college, I wrote a big paper on this author named Tom Wolfe. He was famous. sort of like a [00:06:20] new journalist. He wrote a book called The Man in Full, A Man in Full, which is now sort of a mini series on Netflix.

He wrote a book called Bonfire of the Vanities. He was somebody who [00:06:30] would write these really, you big volumes, and I would laugh throughout the whole book because they were just hysterical to me. So I was like, I love storytelling because it makes me laugh, it entertains me. And Tom [00:06:40] Wolfe came to New York after college to sort of try his hand at becoming a writer.

And I was like, well, I,I want to do that too. I think New York gives you a couple of things. One, [00:06:50] it is a media capital of the world. So there are built in professional paths here for people to succeed. Two, it gives you a lot of stuff to cover. there's just [00:07:00] so, the density, especially for a creative professional like myself, is just amazing.

There's a lot of people to talk to. our office is in downtown, in Chinatown and just within, [00:07:10] you know, within a distance of our office, I could probably find. I could probably find a year's worth of people to interview, you know, just again within walking distance, given the density. And then lastly, it's super [00:07:20] competitive, right?

Like you have some of the best of the best here. And so you really have to be good. And if you're not good, you really have to learn how to become better, you know, work [00:07:30] harder than other people learn from other people. So I think like those three things in New York really make it 

a um,

Radim Malinic: cutting 

Matt McCue: paradise of sorts for creative people. 

What about you? How's it in

Radim Malinic: London? [00:07:40] yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've created my own universe of explorations and I don't know, pursuits. it's nice to be in the Again, I think the second, capital of the [00:07:50] world. Maybe I would think that this is the first one, but. I'm now inspired about how we operate as creative people.

Like I'm deciphering the chaos of, let's [00:08:00] say the first 20 years of my career. And when I started writing books, it wasjust tapping the surface about like, how do we work and how can we actually enjoy it? Because as [00:08:10] you know, from many conversations, I'm sure like creativity.

It's not meant to be easy. We dream about it being easy, but it's not. And when you put lots of people together [00:08:20] with various backgrounds, various ailments, traumas, unresolved issues and say, here's the creative team. Let's do some great work together. Of course, like some of the [00:08:30] trauma is going to manifest itself in an interesting ideas, but you're going to have friction.

You're going to have bad reporting, bad briefing, bad feedback, that kind of stuff. I always felt like, how is it [00:08:40] possible that we can. scale it down and actually enjoy it on client side and studio side. And I've kind of really always kept my studio [00:08:50] so small and nimble that we can actually really enjoy the process.

Like we can really actually be involved, try to be visual storytellers, try to find ways that they [00:09:00] can actually, but yeah, I think the word nimble summarizes it, I think in a 

good way, 

but I think for me, like the verbal side was never,I never knew that [00:09:10] was the plan. Like that, 

I would always look, I would always mention Adrian Shaughnessy, who was, 10, 15 years ahead of what I was beginning to be doing.

And I was like, how does [00:09:20] a design and go from. Designing or creating every day to be writing. It was like, I was imagining like I was like a three year old with big bowl, biggest bowl of ice [00:09:30] cream going, this is the thing I'm going to eat for the rest of my life. This is the best thing in the world. And then you realize, actually, I'm going to eat something completely different.

You know, like that sort of, that [00:09:40] switch was never really, comprehensible to me, like I never thought I would actually make the switch. So I think it just comes with an experience because we've got our priorities, [00:09:50] our sort of interests, that kind of obsessions. And my obsession with words was because I was in a band.

I always wanted to speak second language, which is English. That's the [00:10:00] reason why I moved to England first and foremost, because I wanted to speak English every day. 24 years ago, it was a different story. Now we can speak English anywhere in the world because there's more [00:10:10] demand for it. But yeah, I kind of found my ways of actually translating the thought, like the observations and the intrigue in my head to actually put it in a written form and, [00:10:20] you know, the vision of the books that you remember from the beginning, the highly visual work, like highly visual books, and I've very much just text heavy books, you know, with just a sporadic illustrations.

And [00:10:30] it's been nice. It's been a really interesting journey to do that. 

I want to take you back to Iowa for one more time.

it's for me, it's a big topic. So what I just mentioned about people like Adrian, Sean, I see [00:10:40] people writing stuff. I was a never book, like a book buffing. I was never a bookworm, you know, I just I was always inspired by a rock.

lyrics and kind of people that did sort of more [00:10:50] poetic side rather than, reading heavy sort of prose. Of course I read On the Road by Jack Kerouac and Naked Lunch and that kind of stuff because, you're a teenager, that makes you sound [00:11:00] cool. but I never really understood that. So when you were growing up, you mentioned Tom Wolfe.

what was actually shaping you as a storyteller to be? What were you actually [00:11:10] reading, digesting, observing, being influenced by?

Matt McCue: I think what shaped me as a, more of a, as a boy was ice cream. My mom, in the summers [00:11:20] would have a challenge for, I have two younger brothers and a younger sister. And in the summer, she wanted us to keep reading between grades. And so there was always a challenge of sorts where if [00:11:30] we read X amount of books, you know, four books or six books in a month, she would take us all to Dairy Queen at the end of the month.

And you could basically get whatever you wanted. You know, maybe these books. In the US [00:11:40] we have these blizzards. It's basically like a milkshake with, more candy in it. So like a supercharged milkshake and, and that really spoke to me, you know, as a young boy, I was [00:11:50] like, I love ice cream. This is amazing.

Sure. I have to read a few books to get there. and sort of what I realized on the way to that ice cream was that I enjoyed [00:12:00] stories. As a young guy, there was a really great writer named Gary Paulson, and he would often write books about like outdoor scenes, particularly adventure scenes. [00:12:10] There was one book called Hatchet.

I think I read it when I was somewhere between 10 and 13 years old, where it's a story of a boy who, uh, He's in an airplane flying over Alaska. The plane [00:12:20] goes down in like a pond or something in a lake. And now he's stranded in the middle of Alaska by himself with just his hatchet. And he's got to like survive.[00:12:30] 

And that was like crazy. It was like, this can't be real, but it was just like a wonderful exploration. So like, I just would get on like a Gary Paulson kick and start reading a bunch of his [00:12:40] books and like, you just kind of go down the rabbit hole. I think one thing that I always appreciate about stories is they take you into a new world that you're not,familiar with, that you've never been a part of.

I mean, I lived a [00:12:50] pretty traditional to read about a boy who's surviving in the wilderness with just his hatchet was like, very cool thing to learn about. and even if that never, you know, inspired me to make that [00:13:00] trip to Alaska, it was like, well, I want to read the next Gary Paulsen book, and then I want to read the next thing and the next thing.

I think I've always had an enjoyment, of reading. I think, when we [00:13:10] first met, one of the things I was trying to do around stories Especially with creative professionals, especially with more visually driven creative professionals, was to [00:13:20] help them tell their own stories. when I was at Adobe, I was talking to a lot of designers, and they produced great work.

They were interesting people, [00:13:30] and when they would start to tell me about their work, they would go straight to the work or straight to the output. And like, they didn't really unpack what they did, how they made what [00:13:40] they made. They didn't tell me about who they were. And I think that was one of the interesting things when we first met, like, I not only got a great sense of your work, but I got a great sense of who you are.

You're very [00:13:50] curious. you're a good conversationalist. You have, depth in a background first worth bringing into a conversation about your work. I think like that just makes it. More [00:14:00] interesting. Again, the work is great. The work often stands alone. But at the same time, we can't just rely on the work.

have to market ourselves. We have to talk about ourselves. And [00:14:10] so for me, helping creative professionals tell their story was driven by, a market need, if you will.

Radim Malinic: I think you had a nail on the head with the creatives because I was [00:14:20] very much one of those you just described. I was very much tunnel vision into the process and the process was very much 50 50 and its outcome [00:14:30] to be successful or not successful. And I remember once I shared a conference in Montreal, I met someone, Who was talking about like how they talked to their branding clients, like how they really get [00:14:40] to know them and find like a lot more about them and stuff.

And I'm like, I've been in the creative industry for about 10 years and I have never really been asking these questions, you know, it was more 

like I [00:14:50] hope, the tombow, like spinning, like pulling out, like, do you like this? Do you like that? You know, like it was, very much a lucky draw, you know, beauty parade kind of thing.

And it was only when really, when I really sort of [00:15:00] switched the process and started. It's. more into actually having more of a hold of my process myself, being able to speak to direct clients because. My [00:15:10] background is in working as an illustrator in advertising, and you don't get to speak to clients.

You don't usually, you are just a monkey, literally like, illustration monkey. Like this is what you do. This is what you [00:15:20] do. And if you're lucky, you might meet someone or whatever like that. Just, you know, you might get some feedback and it's very secluded. And I think that's one of the reasons why I'm on a mission to feel like we can empower our [00:15:30] generation and the future generations and actually knowing that the more we talk, the more we exchange information, the better and more beautiful stuff it is, because what I found through that process that [00:15:40] I was trying to fix everything outside my door, within it was coming through to me.

Only to find out that I needed to fix myself first because I was the main [00:15:50] conduit and I wasn't always sure why you would want to find a battle, why would you want to just not necessarily give in to compromise, you know, which is, once you [00:16:00] realize that you're actually comfortable in your own skin, that, you life is not ending, you know, that because you just made a mistake or didn't say something right, it frees you up.

And you realize, in a comfortable position. I'm [00:16:10] actually in a secure position and I can explore and actually open up this sort of vision and this sort of field of comfort to actually other people around me. So it's like [00:16:20] since, since we've met and up till today, you know, I've been on a great journey of discovery, through all sorts of, knowledge experiments to therapy to, understanding my [00:16:30] role as a father, as a husband, you know, it's just, it all plays together.

And what do you describe with those creatives? And as I said, I was one of them and I know zillions of them because [00:16:40] for some it's creativity is kind of an escape, it's instant gratification. And, Sometimes you can actually hide behind it. It gives you identity and that's it. [00:16:50] But hopefully like for those, that you described, like it's hopefully a mid stage because I realized that I'm visually less and less [00:17:00] creative than I've ever been.

Yet I feel most enriched creatively because I have Better and bigger conversations. we create work that flows better, you know, everyone's happier and everyone's [00:17:10] more involved. And that's just the kind of really small cognitive shift and small verbal shift to actually make all of this really, work really well.

And I think [00:17:20] US would you now do the creative factor must be quite sometimes, interesting to see people who are, not always used to speaking, you know, like you, you get natural talkers and you [00:17:30] get those who are not, you know. 

So, 

Matt McCue: And here's why I think you're good. I think there are a couple of things that I think tie back to the larger idea of storytelling. And I think there are [00:17:40] things that you do really well. I boil them down to what I call like the three C's. One, for a good story, you need a character, you need a good, compelling character.

They don't have to be perfect. A [00:17:50] good character doesn't always mean that you're an executive at a big company or that you're the founder of an agency. Like you need to be somebody interesting, and you need to be able to have [00:18:00] an experience that you want to talk about. And you need to be able to have some sort of insights about that experience, experience that you're willing to share freely.

And so I think like, that's [00:18:10] why you make a good, the stories you write often have your own perspective in them, right? You're a character in the story. You've lived it, you've done it. You've got some [00:18:20] perspective. Yeah. And like, that's a really good starting point for telling your story. the second one is conflict.

Like every good story needs conflict. And this is one of the biggest. that I [00:18:30] get pitched stories all the time. I get pitched people with really great experience, people who have big, again, big, fancy titles of big companies all the time. And, [00:18:40] often if there's one thing missing from a story, it's conflict, right?

Like they're a big, impressive person. They have something that they want to say, but they need to kind of get into that middle part of it, [00:18:50] which is like, what's the challenge out there that I'm talking about? what's the tension point that I'm addressing? And I'm going to talk about and unpack you, for example, creativity for [00:19:00] sale, right?

There's a big challenge and tension around how creative people make money. it's not discussed widely. when people do, it can often be a very surface conversation [00:19:10] and you jumped into a topic like that and said, okay, I'm going to unpack this and I'm going to talk about this and I'm going to be candid about this, because it's really important for, Again, creative [00:19:20] professionals to understand how they make money from what they do.

And then the third C is conclusion, right? Okay, I'm going to, I'm a compelling character. I have experience and perspective. I'm [00:19:30] going to talk about this topic. I'm going to help navigate the conflict and the tension, but I'm also going to bring you to some type of ending, right? There's a conclusion.

There's a takeaway. There's a valuable [00:19:40] insight that the reader can draw from a book, from a presentation, et cetera, that is really central to bringing the story home. If somebody is a very [00:19:50] impressive person, they get up and talk about themselves and they don't leave the reader or the audience with anything to take away, they've failed as a storyteller.

So I would say, like, the three C's are just a [00:20:00] good working, formula that somebody can think about. Who's the character? What's the conflict that they're going to dig into? How are they going to unpack it and how are they going to leave the reader, [00:20:10] the viewer with some type of conclusion around, a learning and insight, et cetera, that can be drawn from the material. And again, I think you do all three of those really well. if certainly in your [00:20:20] books and otherwise.

Radim Malinic: well, that's very kind of you. Thank you. I wasn't expecting you to be talking about my stuff. I thinkthere is a sort of way into write stories. And as you [00:20:30] said, like it's written from my sort of point of view, from my perspective and from my experience. And I've mentioned it a few times, maybe on the portal and in my talks that [00:20:40] I had a massive meltdown about these two books because I've decided to write two books at the same time within about nine months.

And I kind of, I was pushing them slowly, like, am I going to do [00:20:50] them or whatever? Like this sometimes. that was a deadline because a child was being born, so, okay, we have to get a book out, because, it's chaos when they get born and, and it's a good, it's a good drive to actually get it [00:21:00] done.

Whereas with these two books, I wanted something which is a talking point on its own. No, I don't know anyone who's published two books, especially in our sort of field and creativity [00:21:10] or, design or, obviously in my PO contemporary. So I was like, I wanted something and I wanted to start a toolkit for the 21st Century Creative.

I wanted to do this [00:21:20] because the things that I was just describing just earlier is that there's so many things we can tweak collectively, you know, like we can actually, as you talk about a conflict, we can actually [00:21:30] work on the basis that we celebrate conflict, because creativity in its way is a beautiful conflict.

It's a beautiful exchange. something has to give, has to be compromised, but [00:21:40] we try to steer away from it because as you say, like someone, you've got a big character, they talk about themselves. It's like, this is the glory stuff. This is the pretty things, you I want to know how he did this.

And this is [00:21:50] actually very much the reason why I started this podcast, because I wanted to show people like what happens between, came from Iowa to New York and I did this, I wanted to speak to people like, what is that [00:22:00] magic formula? And what is the sort of magic process where kind of, it's not really magic.

It's just people working really hard until they get somewhere. So I wanted to shed light on [00:22:10] this because. We don't get to see much very often. As you say, people, let's go straight to the work. Let's, let me show you what we did. And I like, we clicked all the buttons and we now did all, use all the colors.

[00:22:20] And that gets very pedestrian. Like you don't really get to find out much. So you see someone who, came out of university and all of a sudden they're doing a campaigns for multinational companies. [00:22:30] You're like that middle bit. let's open that bit as wide open as we can, because I'm very much open how it happened for me.

and I still like. It hasn't happened yet. I just, [00:22:40] I'm still working on it. You know, it's just, you sometimes have to really step away and find an outside view to say, Oh shit, I should, we've actually achieved something. You know, like it's because when you're in the middle of it, when you're in the [00:22:50] eye of the storm, it's still a storm, don't have the view of it.

So you've come from Iowa. I think I love your mum's, ice cream challenge. That's brilliant. And I love what you [00:23:00] describe. I mean, what was the flavour? Because you said it was the, you said it was a blizzard. What did you call the

ice cream? 

Matt McCue: they have, two, two flavors. One, you could get any type of mix in candy mix it. I usually lean [00:23:10] towards Butterfinger or,

a Reese's Peanut Butter Cups, both of which I think are not like technically candy. I mean, they are, but I don't know if there's actually any real like chocolate in them. I think it's just like [00:23:20] bark with chocolate coating, but it was delicious.

when you're, in grade school, for me, just to talk a little bit on what you just mentioned. And, It was not smooth sailing coming to New York. I, when I was [00:23:30] about to graduate, I made sort of two lists. And the first list was like all the natural things I should be doing.

And the second list was like the things I would never do, right? The things that were too big or too [00:23:40] far out of my realm or whatever. On the top of the second list was like, move to New York and give it a try. I think the challenge certainly for me, Sparked my interest in [00:23:50] pursuing that. And I didn't know anybody in New York city.

I didn't have a job, didn't have a place to live when I moved here. I packed everything I could [00:24:00] fit into two suitcases, which is how much you could carry at the time. I think without being charged extra on airlines, but the one way plane ticket and thought I would try it. I had saved up some [00:24:10] money from working in the summers in college.

So I had like, it was like 8, 000 or something, which felt like a lot. But it goes fast in New York City. [00:24:20] I was able to get an unpaid internship at Rolling Stone during the day. So I would work at Rolling Stone from like 10 to three o'clock in the afternoon. And then at [00:24:30] three o'clock, I would leave and I would go to this, private, boys school because I tutored a sixth grade student.

so I studied. I used a site called [00:24:40] Craigslist to find a mom looking for a tutor for her son, and four days a week I would go to take him to his apartment and I would tutor him and I would make [00:24:50] just enough money from tutoring to like, keep me from bleeding all of my money in the first month, so that was fine.

I learned there's a real art to tutoring. You know, you [00:25:00] want to help your student advance. But not so much so that you're out of work. you want to help them become like a solid, B minus student, rather than like an A plus and otherwise they [00:25:10] don't need you anymore.

So, I was able to do that for a while. And then one day, the mom of the boy came home and she was like, oh, I was talking to my neighbor in the [00:25:20] elevator. And, she's looking for an assistant, and I said, oh, and she says she works in publishing, and I said, where does she work? And she's like, she works at Vandy Fair, and, It was one of [00:25:30] those real life moments where you knew if you put yourself in sort of a certain area, there was a higher chance of you getting something like this, [00:25:40] particularly through a non traditional opening.

And I think most of the jobs I've gotten in life have come through, not like the front door, but through these non traditional openings. [00:25:50] Connections that have been made for one reason or another. And two days later I was in this associate publisher's office doing an interview. And I think I [00:26:00] failed just about every question around like the business stuff, but I had like a pretty compelling, it goes back to story.

I had a pretty compelling story. I'm here cause I want to make it as a writer and editor in New [00:26:10] York and I'm determined to do it. And I've already come this far and I bought the one way plane ticket and I'm just getting started. And I'd love to like, be on your team and work [00:26:20] 27 hours a day to help you build out this business.

And got the job. So that's,the part that people gloss over like the nitty gritty hard stuff. to your point, writing these [00:26:30] books, right? It just doesn't, you just don't have this idea. And then it just comes, doing two at a time sounds terrible to be honest with you.

just how hard it is. But like, Yeah, there's [00:26:40] that, that nitty gritty in the middle that's worth talking about. Cause that's like where we learn our lessons. Like that's where this stuff is real.

Radim Malinic: I love your story. I love the story [00:26:50] how, It all joined up. And by the way, incredible strategy. I mean, being sort of so shrewd about, don't tutor them too well, , so they don't need you [00:27:00] anymore. 

but I know what you mean. I mean, in creativity for sale, I talk about meaningful connections, and this is one of them.

 I believe in striking chord [00:27:10] with people and actually finding like what makes them exciting, what makes them interesting, you know, like just to have a conversation because. I used to be painfully shy as a teenager. [00:27:20] I was a DJ, I could leave things to alcohol. You know, I could actually do stuff.

But when you give me a chance to actually speak and be comfortable, like everything flows and everything. I want to know stuff, like [00:27:30] why, because You only get one chance sometimes to meet someone and sometimes you can make an impression, first time around.

And I love that you said, I felt every question about business, about [00:27:40] your story, about what your determination,that's how you find the ways to see around the corners. That's why you find an opening, you know, around the corner or, from the back door. And I think it's [00:27:50] sometimes it's quite undervalued, but it's just something you can't teach, if you really want something.

Then you go after it and sometimes it, it's okay to take [00:28:00] time not knowing where you need to go because sometimes being lost gives you time to think. And I think we've hyper polished the impression that you need to be someone [00:28:10] today or everyone is someone today, even though we don't really know what happens behind the scenes or what really is actually, hang on, going on with that person.

I love that, connection [00:28:20] ended up being the one that got you started. And, sounds like a proper, already really interesting story that, that, that should, is coming somewhere, which is super exciting. [00:28:30] So with Vanity Fair, what did you do first? I mean, obviously you got your job and You know, you start and obviously you're willing to work, you're keen, which is the best way to, to make a progress in your [00:28:40] career.

So what did they get you started on?

Matt McCue: I spent a lot of time that first year, packing boxes, to be honest with you. every sort of stereotypical [00:28:50] entry level publishing job that somebody might think about, I was doing that. this was like almost, we had email, but it was really pre internet. there was a lot [00:29:00] of copying.

There was a lot of, there was doing mail. There was, but I just remember a lot of packing boxes. I worked on the promotions and marketing side. So we put on a lot of events. so there [00:29:10] was sending stuff to events. There was, I was somehow usually the guy standing outside of an event with a clipboard.

it's so funny. You're 23 years old. You have absolutely no power in [00:29:20] your job. And then they say, okay, well, tonight at the event, you're going to be the person at the door. And now all of a sudden you have all this power, you're saying, okay, you can come in or you can't come in. Or sometimes, [00:29:30] you know, you just let somebody in because like, they just look so sad.

They're like, sure, just come on in, whatever. so like it was the grunt work. There was a grunt work that nobody likes to do. but I think, you know, [00:29:40] it's like the grunt work that my grandparents would say, just build character. I think for me, one interesting lesson I had it, so Vanity Fair is part of Condé Nast and I [00:29:50] was on the business side and I tried desperately to get over to the editorial side.

I wanted to be at the magazine again. I wanted to be a writer and editor. storyteller, but I could never [00:30:00] break through. And I think you talk about like, sometimes the lessons come not so much with our successes, but with the things that we don't achieve. And for me, [00:30:10] after trying to break through and try to get like that editorial assistant job on the other side of the magazine for so long and realizing it's just not going to happen for one reason or another, I [00:30:20] struck out.

on my own. I said, okay, well, I can write. I think I can do this. I'm going to try to be freelance. I'd also been writing a book like on nights and weekends. I'd [00:30:30] get up really early in the morning and I'd stay up late at night. And I self published a book when I was 26 years old. So I did have something that I could put out in the world.

And this takes [00:30:40] us back to the idea of story. I was 26 years old. I'd written a quasi memoir, I guess, because, you know, at 26, you've accomplished so much in life. You need to tell your life [00:30:50] story. but I hope that there was a bigger, it was it was a coming of age story and it really revolved around two incredible leaders that I experienced in my life.

And both were [00:31:00] long distance running coaches. One was a high school coach. One was a college coach. And this was a book about learning life lessons from both of them. It was a book about being a young kid who thought [00:31:10] he had everything in life figured out. leaving home, going off on the journey to slay the dragon,going through some ups and downs along the way and then realizing that those mentors that you never listened [00:31:20] to when you were younger and thought you knew everything actually had a lot more wisdom, than you ever gave him credit for.

So I wrote that book and I thought, Okay, I [00:31:30] can sell this thing, and I don't know if this is something you experienced, but early on I realized that's not going to be easy, it's probably going to be me sitting in my apartment selling like a copy to [00:31:40] my grandmother and one to my mother, and like, that's it, and so I realized I needed to tell a story, I needed to make this book come alive beyond the walls of my [00:31:50] apartment because I'm 26 years old.

I have no publishing track record. Nobody knows who I am. And so I came up with the idea of giving a 25 or so minute [00:32:00] talk about the book, not so much about the specifics of the book, but about the bigger life lessons of chasing your dreams, perseverance, going through the challenges of certain things.

 [00:32:10] and I did that. I started basically, Coming up with this talk and I would call up high school cross country coaches and I would call up elementary school teachers. I would say, I'm going to be in your [00:32:20] town. would you like me to speak with your team?

I give this presentation on chasing dreams and perseverance and life lessons, and it's no charge to have me do this, but I just asked that you [00:32:30] buy a couple of books and I started to do that. And I started to, sort of just blindly reach out to a lot of people. And then every time I would go out and again, I would give [00:32:40] this talk.

And the talk was really important because it's marketing yourself. It's telling your story before somebody is going to pick up a 100 page book. You want [00:32:50] them already wanting to read that 100 page book. And so like, that was really important for me to learn how to do that and to tell this story. And it goes back to something you said earlier, which was [00:33:00] like nerves.

I'm a very, Introverted person. I can speak publicly, but I'm not like, it's not like I love it, necessarily, but you have to [00:33:10] learn how to push yourself in front of strangers and capture their attention and be comfortable being a little awkward or feeling a little awkward, while you're out there, and then hopefully [00:33:20] resonating or hopefully sharing something that resonates.

with that group of people. So I definitely feel,when you speak and you're a very good speaker and you're a very, you know, a prolific public [00:33:30] speaker, that's not easy, but story is central to all of that.

Radim Malinic: Thank you, Matt. I mean, you're very full of compliments and thank you. Thank you for saying such kind words. [00:33:40] there is something when you said, like, is the word uncomfortable. Like we want to be comfortable. We tell ourselves that comfort is where we're at. the good things happen.

But again, going back to the conflict, you know, the public speaking, [00:33:50] especially to promote the book is so important. And, Especially with the books that now I publish, I need to, and they need to be virtually [00:34:00] opened, 

like to tell people like, no, there's an intriguing title, obviously we all work on a sub, no subheads, like how do you create a sort of brand, almost like a branded product that it speaks from my [00:34:10] soul into the ether, to speak to the other souls and how'd you do it?

Because I was lucky at the beginning because my books were highly visual. So I was already known for doing a particular thing, people [00:34:20] were like, Oh, I like your work and that's in the printed format. So I was gradually building an audience and the kind of like a runway, but having switched to, [00:34:30] actually.

Just highly written word rather than, publishing pretty pictures is a different challenges, but it's challenges that I've always wanted to have because, I [00:34:40] kind of feel like there's, I feel like I, for example, personally found the back of the Photoshop, like, you do one thing and I've reinvented my career many different times, from design to illustration to [00:34:50] our directional kind of stuff.

But I think we find that sort of that point of natural inflection where, you know, like. This is it, and in the saturated market, if you do the [00:35:00] same thing as everybody else, it's really hard to break through because all of a sudden I've removed myself virtually from Behance, like barely posted anything in like 10 years and I've [00:35:10] put myself on Amazon out of all places, okay, this is my playground now, this is my so called competition more than actually, this is my traffic drivers 

and how do we find [00:35:20] our space here?

Because 

I kind of, hate crowded spaces, that's the mass portfolio websites from Dribbble to Behance to others, there's a lot of people doing the same thing. And most of them, are [00:35:30] pretty much creating what I call in mindful creative as a creative porn, you know, like you go on.

Not my portfolio websites, and you see people being handsome, you know, you never [00:35:40] have big enough clients as them, not as beautiful, whatever. I'm trying to make a trophy by joke, but it's kind, it could be disheartening, oh shit, I am here whenever in the world.

And you can find [00:35:50] yourself thinking, I can't do this as just good enough as others. it's first quite hard. And of course if you are driven and you want to learn and, be better, but you do, [00:36:00] you take it as a benchmark and you go, or you can feel like, is this for me? I'm not good enough as this, you know, and for me, it's always what I've, what always, what [00:36:10] I've recently discovered is just that we grow into patience because Obviously, you've got all the trademarks of a driven and a clever person who's worked on their own trajectory, [00:36:20] how do you create that career that you wanted?

Because, you've enjoyed Gary Poulsen stories in a way that they've created this world for you, this universe. [00:36:30] And I found that, visual side is beautiful. Like, we can do things, but I always found myself quite good sort of putting things together.

 You know, I was quite design Lego maker, it adds quite a, [00:36:40] I like collaging, I using other elements and I find that with language now, you take a piece of something, you hear something and it evokes your senses. You're like, I haven't thought about this because some of [00:36:50] these things that we write and we talk about are almost so surface level, that this idea, you is so, so obvious.

But we don't have enough time and headspace to think about it, you know, and these little things [00:37:00] that sort of pierce our sort of beings, we go like, think about this for a minute. Oh, that's changed whole perception. it could be just a slight shift. And I love [00:37:10] that verbally, you can tell something to someone and it can change their way of thinking rather than, look, I spent 20 hours in Photoshop.

What do you think? Right. Whatever, [00:37:20] so I kind of celebrate that because, as you said, like writing your first book and coming of age story and, talking to running coaches, there is this element of patience and [00:37:30] endurance in our creativity that goes so much together that I feel like are so, so often overlooked.

 in our being, because you are a daily, are you still a daily [00:37:40] runner?

Matt McCue: Yeah. Yeah.

Radim Malinic: Yeah. I admire that. I admire that. Last time I saw you, I was very much jet lagged and you were like, I just run down a Queen street. I'm like, okay, I [00:37:50] couldn't do that. But, so tell me about these talks and the running coaches, especially how to running and the storytelling.

Now that there's always a story like, to run a marathon or to run, wherever, like [00:38:00] you, there's almost like many acts within an act.how did running and the ice cream come together?

Matt McCue: I think there's an element here of between long distance [00:38:10] running and storytelling goes back to some of the key characteristics of What can help make you good at that stuff? There's endurance. resilience, [00:38:20] work ethic, things like that, I think, are a common theme.

 I was not a gifted long distance runner. I remember I only became a long distance runner because On the first day [00:38:30] of junior high track and field practice, when we had to run a 400 meter time trial, I got smoked and I finished far in last place. And the coach said, well, we have no room for you in the sprints, [00:38:40] but nobody wants to run the mile.

So why don't you go run the mile? And I thought, Oh God, that sounds terrible. what's worse than one lap of pain, four laps of pain. And it just sounded really [00:38:50] bad. And, and okay, fine, I'll do it. And then, you know, there's something in my being to say, okay, I'm not the most talented guy out here.

but one benefit of long distance running is [00:39:00] like, it's,a sport where talent matters. It still matters, but it matters. A little less than like basketball. if you're not tall in basketball, you're sort of not in the game. long distance running, you can [00:39:10] outwork a lot of people. So for me, that sort of was a defining characteristic of becoming a good long distance runner, willing to run during a very cold winters, willing to [00:39:20] get up in darkness and run and always willing to like start. Even if the championship race isn't, four or five months away, I'm still going to work now. And I think there's a lot of [00:39:30] translatable characteristics that go into writing a book or writing in general, right? You start with a blank page and you often have to put in a lot of work. [00:39:40] Before the material starts to become something and before that material then becomes a book.

You have to have endurance. You have to sort of do it [00:39:50] every day to be better at it. And that's why I'm going to embrace AI as much as I can. But like, there's and an endurance component to the craft. The craft of [00:40:00] creativity that I think is really not being discussed in all of these conversations around AI, and I think, again, it's that hard work mentality of just building [00:40:10] something, doing the stuff that's uncomfortable that people don't want to do, but sort of just committing to that.

And, losing a few times, but still getting back up and doing again. [00:40:20] That translates with both of them. It's certainly core to somebody who wants to become a good long distance runner. And I think it's really important for somebody who wants to become a good [00:40:30] storyteller because you will not be good your first day or your first week, or even your first year, but you do it for, years and years, and ultimately it will [00:40:40] become second nature.

So I think like that's a connection point for me between the two is this is sort of these defining characteristics.

Radim Malinic: I think in a point of creativity and as you described just with running, it's [00:40:50] just you don't always have good days, and I like using the, the story from Alexi Popeye, who was speaking to Rach Roll, she's an Olympic athlete, film, [00:41:00] filmmaker, film director. And she said, there's a rule of the thirds, you feel crappy some of the time, you feel okay.

Some of the time or third of the time and then you feel [00:41:10] great or good third of the time and it has to oscillate between the three because If you feel crappy all the time, then you may be pushing [00:41:20] too high, missing, you know, giving yourself enough rest of space to think, in a creative sort of measure.

Whereas if you feel just okay, , you're not doing either of the things, pushing yourself, resting too much. And if you, if it feels [00:41:30] all very too good, maybe there's something quite amiss, because we need to feel all three things. And, When it comes to creative endurance, when it comes to learning how to be a long distance [00:41:40] runner, or I'm working on being a long distance cyclist, you have magnificent days and you get days that everything on paper looks amazing.

Like great weather, legs, [00:41:50] feel good, everything's good. Nutrition's dialed in and it just doesn't happen, and it often brings me to the conversation I have with my wife, which was on the back of Louis CK's, everything's [00:42:00] amazing yet nobody's happy. And we talked about it and my wife's always had horses and we've got quite a lot of them for our kids as well.

And she said, just because you [00:42:10] give horses, my uncle's horse, hay and water doesn't mean you will change their life. it just depends on their mindset. It depends, you know, how they feel. And that kind of feels like if you just [00:42:20] give everyone the latest tech, the latest creative tools, That doesn't mean that the magic will happen, we actually have to apply ourselves and sometimes this will go well, sometimes it won't.[00:42:30] 

And I think it's that realization that It's a journey, it's that story that's fragmented into so many parts and acts and, peaks and drops, like ebbs and flows, like, [00:42:40] that's how our creativity works. But we are like to be in very much in denial of it. Like, we just feel that every day is the track race, every day is like, okay, I'm running my [00:42:50] hundred meters.

I am of the persuasion that, we can always go and aim to run that hundred meters like Usain Bolt, but it's more about being ready to run it [00:43:00] blindfolded in the middle of the night. from creative endurance and from creative condition, like we tell ourselves, especially you've heard that sort of mainstream sort of opinions on [00:43:10] online, but people say, well, I'm creative between nine o'clock and two o'clock in the morning.

Of course you are, because your phone's not ringing, mom's not asking you what time you're going to be around for, like, it's about the [00:43:20] mindset. It's about creativity. People say, Oh, I'm creative in the shower. It's a monotonous task. Obviously you're like, you don't have to focus on operating something that, is quite dangerous.[00:43:30] 

So I think it's that bit where, you put a runner on the starting line. And they've been getting ready for that race. And I think that's how I feel [00:43:40] with creativity and storytelling and visual work. we are working towards the starting line so we can actually give ourselves the best and optimal conditions.

and I would say like [00:43:50] best possible chance to actually succeed. And that I think is very much misunderstood and omitted from lots of people's processes.

Matt McCue: Yeah, if I could tell [00:44:00] you one quick story, I, so this time of year, there's a lot of students graduating and I find that I get sent a number of people, young, I shouldn't call them [00:44:10] kids, but they're 21, 22 years old, and they're looking for their first job and they are sent our way and I talk with them and they're all nice and they're all, bright eyed and they want [00:44:20] to go out and get their first job, understandably.

And they show me their portfolio and. Looking across all these pieces, they look like, you know, what a 21, 22 year old would produce. [00:44:30] That's nothing bad against what they produce. It just kind of all looks the same, but all kind of reads the same. They haven't figured out, how to be great yet, and they certainly haven't figured out their style.

And that's okay. That will all [00:44:40] come. so it's really hard to evaluate those people based on what they produce at that age. So for me, I, if I can't hire them or we're just don't have that [00:44:50] ability, I say, well, just keep in touch with me, you know, I want to be able to recommend you if there's something that comes up, I'm happy to give a referral to somebody that I know who might be looking for what you're [00:45:00] doing, but I ask you to do this in return, keep in touch with me.

So every month I want you to send me an email and I want you to show me some of the things that you've been working on that month. Okay. I want you to tell me [00:45:10] some of the things that you've seen out and about in New York City, usually in New York, like help me have a sense of that.

you're interacting and engaging with the world so you can tell me what's going on and then, [00:45:20] share a few great pieces that you read this month. Give me something of value. What's a great story that I might have missed, but you think is good or something that I should definitely check in on, and I do that for [00:45:30] two reasons.

One to stay connected, and I feel like it's a relatively light lift to see if they'll even do it. And then to see if they'll do it a month after month. And pretty [00:45:40] much nobody does it month after month. And what I'm really evaluating there is a little less of the skillset. Cause like I said, it's not something I would evaluate at that age.

It's, do you have endurance? [00:45:50] Do you have perseverance? Are you going to show up month in and month out? I'm asking for a relatively low lift. email that will probably take you 10 minutes or less. And I just want to see if you're [00:46:00] going to do it month after month. And if they do it, then I can say, okay, now I can trust you with some more work, or I can have you come in and start working on something that we're doing.

Or I have a lot of [00:46:10] pieces that maybe I need done. And now I feel like you're ready to take on that task. So it goes back again to, Never overlook the raw characteristics of just [00:46:20] all the things that contribute to success. Hard work, perseverance, showing up, being on somebody's radar, doing the uncomfortable things of like telling your [00:46:30] story, putting yourself out there.

And like that does make a difference, somehow, somewhere. Sorry, maybe I 

just sound like an old man, making 

Radim Malinic: not. 

Matt McCue: do the extra work.

Radim Malinic: No, no, no. [00:46:40] I think, I mean, look, I'm in a similar boat because I always hide those people who never went away. when they say, Hey, I'm still here. I still want to do it. That's so [00:46:50] refreshing, even though they were not the best from the pack because they really wanted it.

And then, you know, you see some people that land in your inbox, like, Hey, have you got a job? Have you got a job? Have you got a job? And then you said, actually, you see [00:47:00] them launching their own studios and doing really well. And you're like, yeah, you're always going to do well because you actually believe in what you write.

It's a tricky thing to say. You believe in something. Like you were actually [00:47:10] obsessive enough about what you were doing and excited about that they can lead you to something that you actually can validate it because you said that they're not great yet. And I've got this thing I'm mulling [00:47:20] over in my head for my new book is that no one's waiting for your greatness, like whatever you decide to do, no one gives a shit, have to give a shit, like you have to be [00:47:30] thinking, how good can I be?

And again, there's a title of a book that I'm grinding to death on this podcast, but it was by Paul Arden. And it said, it's not how good you are, it's how good you want to [00:47:40] be. For me, I read that job done, like literally, like I wanted to be the best possible way of me what I can be.

Kind of go after the information actually, open the lids and [00:47:50] smell things and go like, well, how can I see around the corner? what can I do? Because I've got an immigrant mindset, I live in a, Not a second home. And there is something about that mindset that you [00:48:00] push yourself harder because you have to rebuild your social circles, you have to make new contacts, meaningful connections, and find your way how to build a security. [00:48:10] And I, I was an average DJ. I was an average musician. I was an average everything before that. And I was an average in house designer, but I realized you Look, I can actually [00:48:20] change the world around me, in a certain way, and I can be passionate about certain things. So I was very thankful about, discovering literally just those few words.

Thinking, I [00:48:30] know I'm not going to be the most amazing designer or writer or whatever, but I know that I'm going to give it a good go. And that's influencing the topic of my new book, [00:48:40] which is No Risk, No Story. The word risk is I think, slightly misunderstood. it's not necessarily risk.

It's like no opportunity, no story, no, 

Radim Malinic: no [00:48:50] intrigue, no curiosity, no story, because obviously what we get between, Nothing happening and something happening is just like a step forward of just, a phone call or, someone [00:49:00] saying, actually, I'm going to write Matt, an email every month and actually prove that's what I want to do because.

That's how they define to themselves how to be great, like how can [00:49:10] I actually stand out from others, because at that age, and being a written word of student work, like design students, their work is pretty much all the same. [00:49:20] You who latched on a certain style, a certain thing, a certain trend, and that's what they do.

in a kind of, you know, student way. And you're thinking like, it can [00:49:30] feel so painful to stand out from the crowd and actually say, you know what, I feel something that there's an expression in me. I want to do that. And I might not be instantly [00:49:40] accepted. How long is it going to take for me to work? Because what you've been describing, especially with youngsters is that We are living in a [00:49:50] hyper, focused world on being something, on delivering things, so you and I accepted that there's an internship, that there's a, badly paid job and there's packing boxes because that's the journey.

We didn't [00:50:00] have a daily Disneyland in our 

pockets going, I live, I work for Twitter. I've got free coffee. I've got free lunch. You got this and all that. I don't like. That didn't 

exist. [00:50:10] you, saw some of your friends in a pub or somewhere and the social gathering, like, how is it going?

Ah, whatever. You're like, everyone felt a bit on par. Whereas we've got these outliers or so supposing [00:50:20] outliers that sometimes, is this even real? Like, because to us, it doesn't look like work, like what was working all editorial houses was stacks of [00:50:30] papers and chaos. And, we were kind of lucky that anything went out of the door.

So. Yeah, I like that, that, you're pushing people to do that, but I want to take you back to Vanity [00:50:40] Fair and kind of find your way to Adobe. Like, how did that happen? Because that's where we met and Steve will talk about where you've gone on to afterwards, but yeah, Vanity Fair to [00:50:50] Adobe, how did you do that?

Matt McCue: that was one of those experiences of sort of working at something for five years and having it not work for four years and [00:51:00] 364 days. And then that one day things just opened up and it feels like an overnight thing, but it really was probably many years before that. I was able to [00:51:10] spin up a freelance writing career and a pretty good one.

I was writing for New York Magazine and, Fortune and Fast Company and GQ and, a lot of other places. ESPN,[00:51:20] and my editor at Fortune is a guy named Andrew Nuska. And I was always looking for a full time job at one of these places that I was writing for. And again, just what kind of wasn't, It wasn't [00:51:30] transpiring how I wanted it to.

And after going out and just doing their freelance thing for like, again, five years producing, doing good work for people, including for [00:51:40] Andrew, and telling him and also being vocal, Hey, I'm looking for a full time thing now. I'd like to go in house. I'd like to just commit to one spot. it was, again, it's one of those, Sort of what felt like a [00:51:50] chance encounter, but maybe it's, there's more to it as one day he said, Hey,a friend of mine, a guy I know is an editor at Adobe.

He's looking to hire for this new role. would you be [00:52:00] interested? I was like, yeah, that sounds great. I was like, I don't even know what the role is, but sure. it sounds great. And,One of those stories where, again, you work for so long, and when it goes right, [00:52:10] you almost can't believe it, I think, two days later, I was doing the interview, and then the day after that, they hired me.

So I think they were really desperate, at that point, they were super desperate. but it was a [00:52:20] very appealing job because it really was, covering the world of creativity with a special focus on how creative professionals are building their [00:52:30] careers. And that appealed to me, like, how do you get to where you are in your career?

It goes back to a theme of this conversation, not just where you started and not just where you landed, but tell me [00:52:40] about the ups and downs along the way, the unexpected moves that you made, the thing that you tried three times and it didn't work, and then you tried the fourth time, and finally it it fell in your [00:52:50] favor.

And like, that sounded like a really cool thing to cover. you could cover politics, you could cover business, or you could cover creativity, and that was a bit of a dream [00:53:00] job for me. that editor left less than a year later, so I became the editor in chief. And,we had, a publication that reached well over a million people a month.[00:53:10] 

We had a big thousand person conference at Lincoln Center every year that sold out. so that was a really wonderful, just chapter in terms of what I was [00:53:20] doing. I think it also, for me, inspired what I'm doing now. Which is that we were just covering creative careers, but I always thought there was a little bit more to talk about than just careers.

Careers [00:53:30] are really important, but talking about the craft and really getting into the craft and how people make what they make, I thought was also something that should be discussed. And then the third [00:53:40] component was, well, how do people then use their creativity to shape the culture is also something that should be discussed because.

Career is an important note, and craft is an important note, but really, how do you [00:53:50] make the world a better place, if you will? How do you use your creative skills to positively impact your communities and the greater culture? And I thought, a publication that kind [00:54:00] of was in the center of those three things, well, I thought it would be compelling, but also selfishly, I thought it would be just fun for me.

I wanted to do it because I thought that's the kind of stuff that I want to get [00:54:10] up to. every morning and read. I want to learn about how people make what they make. I want to learn how they turn their craft and use that as sort of a, a stepping stone in their career. And then I want to know [00:54:20] about the ways at the highest level in the world that creative people are shaping the culture.

So, for example, in a few days, I'm going down to Washington, D. C. this week, [00:54:30] and I'm interviewing the White House Creative Director and her creative team. The Associate White House Creative Director and the Lead Designer. For That's a cool story to me. How do these three people who [00:54:40] work for the White House creative team use, you know, what they do to shape the world?

shape of country. And I think like that's the type of conversation that we can, should be [00:54:50] having in the creative world. We can talk about what we can do. We can talk about how we make what we make, but let's look around and see all the amazing things that people are doing with their [00:55:00] creativity and start to shine a light on those as well.

Because I think the creative worldis always under a little undervalued in terms of, Like, Oh, the [00:55:10] business is like a serious topic and, other topics are serious topics, politics is a serious topic, but like creativity is a serious topic as well. And, that's why I like [00:55:20] doing what I'm doing now.

Radim Malinic: That's amazing. I'm a big fan of, I was a big fan of 99U. I think the publication Had some incredible production budget [00:55:30] because I remember when you and I talked, you had the, double page spread with foil for names. I think that was the,double page for the 99 year conference. And you're like, yeah, that was an expensive [00:55:40] page because you want to do amazing things and like push, push the boundaries and push the envelope.

but I was then surprised with creative factor. Like it's taken a while to, to grow it to where [00:55:50] it is now. But again, it's that. Is that endurance? Is that sort of the element of, being able to run the race? And I think you've grown into an incredible, source of, [00:56:00] sharing stories from, places that you would not always expect to, have you, I think you already had someone from White House on, on, on your, in your magazine and you've got others that I liked to [00:56:10] explore and it was nice to be part of it.

Oh shit, actually I'm next to, Mauro from Pepsi or whatever. It's like, no, we are all the same human beings. We just, we might be looking at the world from slightly [00:56:20] higher place, but I after all, when it all is said and done, we are all equal. and I absolutely loved it.

But since you mentioned traveling to White House, you did a story on Harley. [00:56:30] And that I remember I was actually, it was maybe potentially one day, I don't know when it came out, but I remember putting my kids to bed and it just seemed to come out on [00:56:40] my email. I opened it and I just stopped everything like the kids were going to bed later because I was like, This, I couldn't stop it.

Obviously, I've [00:56:50] seen like firsthand when obviously Harley, I mean, obviously I've seen his progress as I know from what he did with his company, obviously then going to Twitter and then having the famous sort of conversation with [00:57:00] Elon 

Musk online. I was like, Oh, okay, let's, let me read this because like it was visually engaging.

It was interesting. Obviously that story is so compelling, not because just what [00:57:10] happened with Musk, but what he is and what he does now. And I'm like, Oh my God, this is incredible. So I've like, I need to share it right away. Like my kids go up to bed 10 minutes later. I'm like, literally, I [00:57:20] had to put, I had to tweet this.

So I think you mentioned somewhere the number of hours and the thing that it take now it's taken to actually get to that story. So, I mean, you have to [00:57:30] share it. You obviously have to tell us, what you did to get that story. 'cause it's incredible.

Matt McCue: that's so it's one of my favorite stories we've ever done. and it's, just for context, Hallie Thorleifson is a very prolific [00:57:40] designer. He's from Iceland, born and raised in Iceland, and, he started a company called Ueno. around 2012, 2013. I have it right in the story. I just can't remember at the [00:57:50] top of my head.

And he built the company up into a really strong 100 person design studio. And they essentially worked with like a who's who of tech companies, right? Like they just [00:58:00] work with their client list is like, It's amazingly long. And he was, again, very good at what he did. And at some point, he sold it to Twitter.

And this was pre [00:58:10] Elon Musk. And as we all know how that kind of story goes, One thing happens after another, and pretty soon, Hallie is, you know, he's leaving Twitter, after a very [00:58:20] public dispute with Elon Musk, calling him very offensive things that you wouldn't call anybody. particularly somebody who worked for you.

And then he goes on and sort of starts this next chapter in his [00:58:30] career. So he's been a successful designer. He's been a successful entrepreneur. I think he was the second highest paying tax person or second highest, you know, he had the second highest [00:58:40] taxes in the country of Iceland after he sold Ueno.

So he did really well. And now he's entered into a new career chapter where he wants to make music. He's really good. I think that [00:58:50] was really intriguing from a surface story. Cause again, you've got a compelling character in Hallie. You've got, a bit of conflict. What does this person do next?

And then, you know, you're searching for a conclusion in the [00:59:00] story. but I think for us, there was something even deeper as part of that story, which was that Hallie was born with muscular dystrophy. he from an early age was teased by kids in [00:59:10] his class because he couldn't walk like everybody else. He started using a wheelchair in his twenties.

He stopped driving in his thirties and he uses a wheelchair today. And he's just, [00:59:20] I would say had a very challenging life in that regard. You know, so not only is he incredibly successful in one part of his life, he's facing [00:59:30] this, again, hard reality in another part of his life. And I wanted to sort of square that away with who he was and all the success that he's had with the human side of him.

So we [00:59:40] believe in telling compelling stories and we believe in what you have to do. It goes back to resilience and perseverance. If I'm going to tell us that story, I need to go to Iceland. [00:59:50] And so in The dead of winter, I went up to Reykjavik, and I don't think, I barely saw the sun like the four days that I was there, and it was super cold, and I [01:00:00] spent a lot of time with Hallie getting his story, and hearing about the things that he's had to overcome, and hearing about how he's grappling with being in his late 20s.

Forties and figuring out [01:00:10] what comes next. Again, he's an incredible creative person. He produces the most fantastic things. At the same time, his body is breaking down. And how does [01:00:20] he reconcile those two things with what's gonna be, you know, the next chapter of his life? And right now his music gives him a really important outlet for [01:00:30] that.

He can create as he always has. He can create with his hands and with his sort of with his heart and with his, you know, with his sound, he can let out some of the [01:00:40] emotions that he feels and the feeling with his body. through his music and he is, and I just thought nobody had ever really told that story as completely as [01:00:50] hopefully we did and that was something that we wanted to do.

The piece is definitely long form. I think it takes almost 20 minutes to read the full piece, but we gave it a really nice [01:01:00] look and feel, really rich look and feel on the site. And right now, readers have spent close to 100, 000 minutes reading just that one piece, so we know [01:01:10] people are not only reading it from the analytics, but that they're spending, the whole time reading it, and, we think it's worth telling longer form stories, in a snackable era, as long as [01:01:20] they have a compelling character.

 conflict that we can dig into and some sort of conclusion that we can wrap our head around at the end of the piece. So that's a story that's really [01:01:30] connected with readers and it's a story that's opened more doors for, other stories with people who we might not have necessarily gotten in front of or as easily [01:01:40] as we have, but it's really, I think, caught people's attention and we're proud of it.

Thanks for the kind words about it.

Radim Malinic: I mean, it's a remarkable story. And as you just said, in a snackable [01:01:50] era, , the long form works because. I think you just aligned that Venn diagram incredibly. Like, obviously you've got someone who is just unique, like unique in his [01:02:00] own right. and I mean, you led me to find out more about him than I ever knew.

Like, obviously I knew surface level information and then you have, you and I was really successful. but, you've got a compelling [01:02:10] story. That obviously Iceland makes it even more interesting because like you've got few, I mean, it's basically population of one of the cities in the UK, you know, so it's not massive.

And it's [01:02:20] just that it makes it stand out in a way of like how the adversity of life. and that drive, and that zest for life, like it's, as you said, his body [01:02:30] is breaking down and you've got every component of the story, you know, you've got a character conflict and, some conclusion for now, like what he's doing now, but it's,when you read [01:02:40] that story, it makes you, I think I read somewhere like he's running a restaurant and there's a, coworking, 

Matt McCue: is the biggest 

co worker. He's a chairman of a, it's a non profit, but they [01:02:50] basically just created this, very big co working space in downtown Reykjavik so that the creative professionals in Reykjavik can have an affordable place to work. He's also done this really [01:03:00] incredible project across the whole country of Iceland called Ramp Up, where he had personal experience trying to get into a store one day.

There wasn't a ramp to get into it, and him being in his [01:03:10] wheelchair, He was stuck and his two children and his wife were able to go in, but he had just basically stay outside. And so he's a very determined guy. He decided he was going to [01:03:20] lead an initiative across all of Iceland to build thousands of ramps to help people get into these places.

And he's gone, he's worked with the president of [01:03:30] Iceland for this. Like the president of Iceland was quoted in our story talking about all the good work that Hallie had done. I think it goes back to something that, you know, you said earlier in the conversation. [01:03:40] No risk, no story. In order for us to create something, create a story that's compelling, that people really want to sink their teeth into, we have to take [01:03:50] the risk.

We have to be willing to go to a place that people don't talk about, people want to know more about, something that might be a little tricky to navigate. [01:04:00] So, going into that story, I have to ask him about things that might be uncomfortable. Obviously, we discussed it ahead of time, he knew what we were going to talk about.

To his credit, [01:04:10] nothing was off limits, and I have to be really sensitive as the storyteller about how I do this, but I also have to be willing to go and discuss the things that he hasn't [01:04:20] publicly discussed, or the things that have been scratched, on the surface, but we need to go deeper into what it's like to have to use a wheelchair from such a [01:04:30] relatively young age.

If we don't tell that part of the story, It doesn't have the depth to it, and therefore it will not resonate with people. And so that's why sometimes when you feel like, [01:04:40] why didn't that story connect with me? It's because a successful person just talked about all the good stuff, and then they said bye, versus talking about the hard stuff, the stuff that people [01:04:50] really want to know about that makes for a good story.

Probably not a good press release, but it makes for a good story. And if you're going to tell a good story, You have to be willing to go to [01:05:00] those, of it. Oh,

Radim Malinic: I mean, you've found an incredible character doing incredible things. when you were talking about, like, mostly, repeating the no [01:05:10] risk, no story, I was watching, re watching one of Ken Robinson's talks on YouTube, and he said, if you're not prepared to be wrong, you won't come up with anything original.

 that's what I mean with [01:05:20] the risk, like, the risk is just a vehicle for, moving forward, because if you don't give it a try, if you don't, if you don't just make that first step, you will never know what you can come [01:05:30] up with, you know, and it's just, I think it's just that exciting stuff, like, I think it's just that exciting.

Give it a go. Literally, just give it a go. It takes sometimes as little as lacing up your shoes and [01:05:40] get out there. And in my book, Mindful Creative, I talk about three superheroes. And there were people who used to run past my old house, and there were three people at various times [01:05:50] of the day running there.

And then within an hour they were running back. I didn't know their names. I don't think they knew who they were. I never knew. But to me, it's the positive, building of positive [01:06:00] habits. You know, like how do you get to somewhere because you're not going to come up with the gold just because you're on the phone to someone or in that shower, you know, like it takes gradual [01:06:10] process.

Things make them more crystallized, they make, they take a better shape. And I think. that's why I feel, as we talked about it today, and I've talked about it with [01:06:20] Mike Schneid on this podcast, he's got a book called Creative Endurance, which is, and he's another daily runner.

It's just like, it takes time to make sense. You know, it [01:06:30] takes time and that patience, and it's just like being content with not being happy and satisfied, which is you're making just small progress. It's always, super exciting. [01:06:40] So.I love what you do and I'm kind of intrigued what's the next step?

What's the next vision? Because you know, as a runner, you always know what you need to do on the next mile. So what's the future [01:06:50] of the creative factor?

Matt McCue: I went full time on this business a little over a year ago. And for us, we had, the goal of just growing our audience size, but more so in [01:07:00] the background, making sure that we can run a successful, sustainable business. Like I knew that if we were going to be creatively excellent, we also have to have a really good, business, [01:07:10] i.

e. We need a good amount of revenue. And for us, a huge focus of this first year was just going out and sort of increasing what we do on our [01:07:20] publication side. And we also have a brand content studio where we work with corporate clients to help them tell their story. And we're in a really good place this year.

We have. five main [01:07:30] clients, all of whom are just wonderful. And we have pretty significant programs with them. So that's been like, again, it's not a story related, but it's like and [01:07:40] life related. If we don't have a good business, we don't have a business. And so for us, that's been a huge focus to get that.

underway. We have two other [01:07:50] exciting things on the publication side that I'm really looking forward to launching this summer. One, if Hallie was at one end of the spectrum, the longer form pieces, we're going to the [01:08:00] completely opposite end of the spectrum. And we're doing these short form creative exercises that we're going out to some of the people that we admire in the creative community [01:08:10] and asking them to share with us, The things they do to warm up their, like, what's their warm up exercise for their creativity?

 what's a, a sketching routine that they do? [01:08:20] What's a, writing routine that they do? Something that's a bit more interactive for people that they can, use when they're staring at that blank page, for example, or when they're just looking [01:08:30] at a daily process that they can do to help them get in the right creative mindset.

And we have a really interesting landscape architect here in New York City who's going to be one of our [01:08:40] first people that we feature and he does a really interesting group exercise with his team, where they basically every other week they sit down for 30 minutes and somebody gives them a prompt and [01:08:50] they just sketch for 30 minutes, first person, Whatever they produce first is like the best thing that they have.

And then they take all of those ideas, photocopy them, and just keep [01:09:00] them in a binder for future inspiration, which is pretty interesting. So we have that coming up next. And then on the longer form side, there's a really, just [01:09:10] a very funny comedian. And that's probably an oxymoron, but just a very successful comedian.

She started her career. Wanted to become a lawyer, and she got her law degree [01:09:20] and she practiced law, but always wanted to pursue comedy. And then she has risen up. She's an opening act for one of the biggest comedians here in the States. She's been very [01:09:30] successful and she had a life changing accident a few years ago she almost died and it was a really traumatic event and it's had a huge impact on [01:09:40] her and sort of her physical being.

And now she's finally, getting back into, I wouldn't say life is. as it was, but she's taking that turn back [01:09:50] to where she was. And it's just a rich, complex story that she has sort of invited us in to be able to tell. And so I'm going to go [01:10:00] hopefully write that story, in a couple of weeks.

As you can tell, we like life stories here. We love stories about creative exercises. We love stories about creative people. We also love [01:10:10] stories just about life. that have a creative theme or a 

creative person at the center of them. And I think like, that's what we're going to see with this story about this comedian.

How does somebody [01:10:20] overcome some huge challenges in their life? how do we tie it back to their pursuit of creativity, their practice of creativity, and the thing that gives them, [01:10:30] energy every day. Then 

Radim Malinic: love it. Can't wait. Can't wait to read it. And I love what you're doing because as you said, it's the life element. is always, I mean, in my opinion, the most [01:10:40] important and the most one that is going to have the most universal appeal because we tell ourselves how unique we are and how sometimes our struggles make us, the [01:10:50] only one in the world having that struggle, whereas The more you talk to people, the more you realize we are exactly all the same.

We break the same, we cry the same,we get excited by similar things, you know, and I [01:11:00] think that's what makes us collectively actually, progress together as a human race and in a society because we share those stories, we make sense of things. And I think such a gift.

And, sometimes you [01:11:10] don't have to sketch it, you know, you just tell someone you pass it on. And that kind of what makes us really, really excited about what potentially is coming next. So

Matt McCue: the fall, let's do one piece with you on [01:11:20] like creativity and entrepreneurship. I feel like that's a topic that we need to, we all need to dig into a little bit more. Creative professionals should be great storytellers, but they should also be [01:11:30] good entrepreneurs. That doesn't mean you necessarily have to run your own company, but you need to, again, creativity for sale.

You need to understand how what you do makes money, and you [01:11:40] need to be, I think, a pretty entrepreneurial thinker if you're going to be a successful creative professional. So let's table that and we'll revisit that in the fall.

Radim Malinic: Thank you. Thank you. And I've been working on [01:11:50] this new book called No Risk, No Story. And it's, for part of it, it was a book about creative ideas. Like how do you make creativity, happen? Because in the series of the books, creativity for sale is like, [01:12:00] okay, I've got my, I've sorted myself as a person with mindful creative, and now I'm like, I've got these ideas, am I going to make a product or service business?

And [01:12:10] with No Risk, No Story, for one stage of thinking, I'm going to If you need a side project to actually get your creative juices going, then you're in the wrong, then you're in the wrong job. Like you should be doing it [01:12:20] like in 2024, you should be doing this as your main job, your main profession, your main business.

And this is I've been having lots of conversations on this podcast and sometimes people go [01:12:30] like, Oh, well, I'm doing my own thing and I've got insecurities and I'm not maybe financially as well off as I should have been or whatever. Like. You don't have to go to work to be working for [01:12:40] somebody else, getting, doing the things that somebody else tells you, like you're going for job security or for secure pay that can disappear tomorrow.

I know it's like, the only risk that you're doing is it's not [01:12:50] pursuing what you really want to be doing. So for me, like no risk, no story came to me by Just seeing a bag, and it was written on a bag in a boutique when I was with my son [01:13:00] shopping for Christmas present for my wife, and for my daughter.

And I was like, this makes sense because everything I've been doing, almost, I wouldn't say unknowingly, but like, I'm going after [01:13:10] the targets, after the goals, And then you realize, oh shit, I've put a lot on the line, to change everything that I do just like yourself, like you say.

Now we've gone full time and I think.it's again, it's [01:13:20] just that mindset shift. Obviously we can't have 7 billion businesses on the planet, obviously we, we need companies, we need people to do things together, but the magic happens when you break away and [01:13:30] actually pursue something that's close to your soul.

So, yeah, I'm truly excited about what you do and, you're a great storyteller and I think this is just the beginning of, well, maybe a mid phase of something absolutely fantastic. [01:13:40] So thank you for, sparing your time today. And, yeah, we need to, do sometimes part two the future because there's a lot more to on earth and share. 

Matt McCue: you to you, 

too, as [01:13:50] well. You're also a pretty great storyteller and a very prolific author. So thanks for having me on.

Radim Malinic: Thank you so much. [01:14:00] 

Thank you for listening to this episode of Creativity for Sale podcast. The show was produced and presented by me, Radim Malinic. Editing and audio production was [01:14:10] masterfully done by 

Neil mackay,. from 7 million Bikes Podcasts, 

Theme music was written and produced by Robert Summerfield. If you enjoyed this episode and would like to support [01:14:20] the podcast, please subscribe and leave a rating or review.

To get your own action plan on how to start and grow a life changing creative business. You can get a copy of the Creativity for Sale [01:14:30] book via the links in show notes. burning, and until next time, I'm Radim Malinich, your guide through this exploration of passion, creativity, [01:14:40] innovation, and the boundless potential within us all. [01:14:50] [01:15:00]