"Something that's good has the chance to make a real impression. Something that's mediocre doesn't. So why do the work if it's not gonna make an impression?" - Stefan Sagmeister 

A candid conversation with renowned designer Stefan Sagmeister about his journey from creating theater posters in Vienna to becoming a celebrated designer in New York. He discusses the evolution of his career, the importance of sabbaticals in creative growth, and his deep insights into happiness and creative fulfillment. The interview reveals how strategic pauses and intentional career shifts have shaped his work and perspective on life.

Key Takeaways:

• Early success came through meaningful connections and being open to opportunities
• Taking regular sabbaticals (every 7 years) has been crucial for creative evolution and preventing stagnation
• True happiness often emerges from improving relationships and pursuing meaningful work rather than direct pursuit
• Setting limitations and constraints can lead to better creative outcomes than complete freedom
• Commercial success shouldn't prevent you from making major career pivots when needed
• Fear of change (like taking sabbaticals) often proves unfounded when you take the leap
• The definition of happiness varies by timeframe - from momentary pleasure to long-term meaning
• Self-improvement and happiness shouldn't be pressured pursuits but natural outcomes of meaningful work
• Being known in design circles brings mostly advantages without the drawbacks of true fame
• The best creative opportunities often come from doing quality work rather than chasing commercial success

Mindful Creative: How to understand and deal with the highs and lows of creative life, career and business

Paperback and Kindle > https://amzn.to/4biTwFc
Free audiobook (with Audible trial) > https://geni.us/free-audiobook
Signed books https://novemberuniverse.co.uk

Lux Coffee Co. https://luxcoffee.co.uk/ (Use: PODCAST for 15% off)

November Universe https://novemberuniverse.co.uk (Use: PODCAST for 10% off)

​[00:00:00] 

Stefan Sagmeister: if I would have a choice, I'd rather wouldn't have done it at all. Because I feel that, Something that's good just has the chance to make a real impression. Something that's mediocre doesn't. So why do the work if it's not gonna make an impression anyway, if it's not gonna do anything?​

USBPre2-2: Welcome to mindful creative podcast. A show about understanding how to deal with the highs and lows of creative lives. My name is Ryan Martin edge and creativity changed my life by also nearly killed me. In the season inspired by my book of the same title. I am talking to some of the most celebrated figures in a creative industry. In our candid conversations, my guests share their experiences and how they overcame [00:01:00] their challenges and struggles. How they learn to grow as creatives. A creative career in a 21st century can be overwhelming. I wanted to capture these honest and transparent conversations that might help you find that guiding light in your career. 

Thank you for joining me on this episode and taking the first or next step towards regaining control of your creative life. You ready? 

Radim Malinic: My guest today is one of the most celebrated designers in the world. Across the last four decades, he's worked with the who's who in the world of music, brands, culture, and entertainment. His work has also been extended to books and exhibitions. His illustrious career has earned him every possible award, including two Grammy Awards and a cult like following from devoted fans.

In this conversation, we look back at the evolution of his career and the importance of sabbatical in creative growth and his deep insights into happiness and [00:02:00] creative fulfillment. The interview pauses and intentional career shifts have shaped his work and perspective on life.

It's my pleasure to introduce Stefan Sagmeister.

 Hi Stefan, it's super nice to have you on the show. How are you doing today?

Stefan Sagmeister: I'm doing very well. Thank you so much. I'm glad to be here.

Radim Malinic: I normally ask people to introduce themselves, but I think, I think people know you.

But if there's anyone who's accidentally listening to this episode and never heard of you, how would you introduce yourself?

Stefan Sagmeister: I am an Austrian designer who lives and works in New York City.

Radim Malinic: the shortest introduction I've ever heard. Fantastic. um, it's what I find fascinating, that in a world so hungry about job titles and give us some sort of props, you still call yourself a graphic designer.

You're still a designer, whereas it's so easy to be graphic designer, illustrator, art director, [00:03:00] creative director. I think we amassed these, titles. Have you ever thought about not being just graphic designer? 

Stefan Sagmeister: I mean, I think that recently I tended to call myself a designer simply because the scope of the work quite often now goes beyond what is traditionally understood as a graphic, design. So I think that designer is basically. seems to sum it up best because, in those past 30 years or 35 years that the studio has been going on, we've done anything from furniture to film to more traditional things like websites or books. But, also mounted many, many, many exhibitions in places that are normally reserved for art. So it's the scope has been quite wide, really from product all the way into touching on architecture. So it's design that just seems to make the [00:04:00] most sense.

Radim Malinic: Yeah, I found it inspirational because I think we look for extended validation. wegive ourselves these titles to empower us. I remember reading some sort of newspaper article. I was like, Stefan Selmayr is a graphic designer. like, that's kind of like, it's done an entry job when you think about it from a hierarchy now, but do you remember the day?

When you called yourself a graphic designer, like when you entered that sort of superpower.

Stefan Sagmeister: my

guess would be that I

called myself that once I was out of school. Meaning I actually did a whole bunch of professional work during school,in Vienna already we were lucky enough to be able to create the posters for a very high profile contemporary theater in Vienna and another theater followed and then while I was studying in the States, I did a whole bunch ofpretty proper freelance projects,which of course had all sorts of advantages. [00:05:00] When I got out of school, I had a very much a printed portfolio. It didn't really look like a student portfolio. But if I remember correctly, I still felt like a design student and I probably wouldn't have called myself a designer. I probably called myself a design student. But as soon as I was out of school, I definitely, I never did an internship. I never had a junior design position. In fact, I think my first real job, I think four weeks into it, they gave me the title of creative director, which was the first job when I was actually employed. And of course, this was in Hong Kong, and Hong Kong, I think, was quite loose with its titles but, I think it was also a fact that basically everything that I didn't have any schoolwork in the portfolio.

It was all like, stuff that I had done while studying. And of course, I was [00:06:00] lucky enough, specifically Austria, studying is for free, so you don't have to go into that. But I had a full scholarship for the US, so I could also select the jobs that I would do while I was a student, according to their potential, rather than, they needed to pay maximum amount of money. Which of course I was not aware of at the time, but turned out to be a real advantage because, these were all things that I could later use in the portfolio and that really, worked well for my betterment.

Radim Malinic: mean, how did you, as a student, how did you come about actual freelance project? Is it something that you look for? Is it something that it came through connections or the word of mouth? Because, obviously it's not unusual for students to work, but what you describe in, it seems quite sort of seamless, fluid process.

And it sounded like you actually enjoyed working on this So how did you find it whilst studying and working?

Stefan Sagmeister: it was [00:07:00] a mixture of, I think, looking for it and having a lot of luck. Meaning the thing in Vienna, it came about by a medium, well known rock star. having the hots for my sister, who was a model and quite hot. And this rock star sort of like followed what I was doing as a student and quite liked it and said, Oh,design an album cover for me, which I happily did.

And I think it was a, not a bad effort, but it was a bit complicated to print. And his records company refused to print it in that way. And. He felt bad about the whole episode because I had clearly put a lot of effort and work in it unpaid. And so he, I think to make it up to me, introduced us [00:08:00] to a theater director. He had a good part. in a rock musical that played in that theater. Unusual for that theater because the theater was quite an avant garde theater, and it was sort of their hit show in that year, and which was the Rocky Horror Pictures, or which I'm sure you're familiar with, and they did a very, very good, adaptation for the theater. And, we had the chance, we meaning like four of our students, had the chance to present posters for that play. to the theater director, and he loved it. And then, from then on, we did all the posters for that theater, which was a fantastic job because, the theater was quite prominent, had a reputation for doing good posters. Their posters were put all over Vienna, so if your poster got picked, you've seen it everywhere. Imean, this was very, very visible. And it also [00:09:00] very much forced us to really ask the right questions from our professors because of course this was so visible so we wanted them to be as good as possible so suddenly it was just a very fortunate thing.

Ultimately it turned out the reason that I got the scholarship was also those posters because jury for the scholarship were theater goers and they were quite impressed by the fact when they found out that these posters that they were very well aware of were done by a student. So in all basic, this, none of this was done consciously, meaning like,I didn't do theater posters because I thought this is going to be good for my career.

Not at all. It was like a great challenge to do. It was fun and, we were called the good group as four students and there were little magazine articles written about us because the posters were so visible. you know, and of course, we met the [00:10:00] theater, the playwrights, the directors, we hung out in the theater, we had spaces for the opening, and it's, the whole thing was just fantastic.

literally, in a small way, made our students be part of cultural life in Vienna. I mean, you couldn't have askedfor anything better. And, the director of that theater was a quite well known celebrity by being of the best known theater director in Vienna. So he, of course, also was a fantastic person to be connected to because he actually then wanted to prevent. the city from selling a very old and very famous theater to be raised down and replaced by luxury condos. And he commissioned me for that Save the Roanoker campaign, which I also happily [00:11:00] created.

 and it turned out to be working, which meaning like the Roanoker was actually saved is now a very popular theater. in the center of Vienna. So these were just super important impressions during student time, meaning like that you can actually do a small campaign, get it out there, and it would actually work.

Meaning it would actually do the things that it set out to do was, amazing. and of course, very much,underlined. The fact that my decision to become a designer was a good one because you could do stuff that actually had meaning while creating something that could in the best way or in the most successful possibilities actually be joyful. yeah, it was the possibility to [00:12:00] experience some of the best possible outcomes of design firsthand. Exactly.

Radim Malinic: I mean, that's a fascinating story, and planets were aligned, and I think, I'm sure you've been always thankful to your sister for having good looks. 

But you said a couple of important things that we were asking the right questions. to our tutors. And I still find this quite mature. And I think quite sort of,astute in a way that, Sometimes, I'm going back to formative years, sometimes we don't always ask the right question.

The life enables us to better questions because we've got an understanding that potentially there's better answers. with your little group of four, taking on this world of theatre, and having, empowering to see your pasted posters around Vienna, because, this kind of advertising was, the only advertising.

 But did you feel at any time that you were under pressure that you need to deliver, or was it quite liberating process? 

Stefan Sagmeister: this was pressure. This was

pressure. [00:13:00] AndI'm always in between. Is it really good to do a lot of pressure cooking work when you're as a student? Aren't you supposed to just also enjoy the learning process, free from these sorts of deadlines and pressures? And I think I came to the conclusion that you need both. I think that it's great to have real times as a student. to be able to explore to really be a student. But then I also think some real pressure can be very good. And I think that strangely, I've never really thought about it from my own student experience, but I've thought about it a lot by experiences when I was the professor. Like

I had much later a experience where I did semester's worth of guest professorship, also in Austria. [00:14:00] And the students that I got were not good. I felt that they were some of the least talented students that I've had. And because that, situation was in Salzburg and Red Bull, like the drink company, is based in Salzburg and they have a very fancy exhibition space which doubles as an airplane hangar for the airplane collection of the owner of Red Bull. And he does very high end contemporary art exhibits in that hangar. And the hangar has a, Michelin star restaurant attached, and it's quite elegant and chic, and the wealthy people of Salzburg would go there to openings. Because at that point, it was much later, I had already quite a big name in, in Austria. Red Bull contacted me and said, wouldn't you want to do the [00:15:00] end exhibition with your students in the hangar? And I said, sure, that would be great. to be outside of the school month, otherwise it would have been probably in the hallways of the university. So we said, yeah, absolutely.

It's a great idea. And then I think I had to threaten the students once or twice to cancel the whole thing because the work was not really up for par. But ultimately, that idea that it would be shown in this very fancy space, it didn't work. which also meant TV will be there, the governor will be there, and it's not going to be, your mom and dad and an ant, but it's going to be the whole art audience of Salzburg will be there, put so much pressure on those students that they completely went beyond themselves.

It was one, it turned out then to be one of the best exhibitions that students of mine had ever [00:16:00] given. And so they really went from meaning I've never seen a transformation that big in quality. And I think I was quite strict. Red Bull gave us an incredible amount of money. I think it was 60, 000. To make sure that the materiality is okay. They gave us their exhibition building teams which was a very professional museum type exhibition building team. So I think from a production level, it became much more professional. But, bad work being produced, doesn't matter.so they really went beyond themselves. So I think that a good amount of pressure, or at least selected pressure, at one point in design school, can actually very helpful thing.

Radim Malinic: what a wonderful story. And I think beingexposed to pressure gets you almost ready for the world. [00:17:00] Beyond the school, because, like that you said it was a transformation because you said you use the word talent, but then the talent was actually offset with the pressure and hard work.

Because if you give people the opportunity to actually make something for themselves, will be still some that actually choose not to do it. But I think what you're describing here, like the word talent almost. Became as a side point because it's the pressure and it's the vision of actually that gives you the constraints to like, okay, don't be a fool and actually do your work properly.

Stefan Sagmeister: And I actually, just a couple of months ago, I met one of those students who is now a very successful illustrator, in, Barcelona. And I met her at Off, and she did a talk at Off, so I'm thinking she clearly made a career. I remember another student who had a double page, in iMagazine, which, was a pretty big deal at the time for an Austrian student, meaning, iMagazine is not in the business of showing student [00:18:00] work. literally, it was a pure pressure thing.

Radim Malinic: sounds like a rocket fuel. But what you also mentioned, you said that you already had a name in, Austria. Did you feel under pressure that you had to deliver? But, with you being so prominent in the design scene and the creative scene over, so many decades, you must've gone through those phases where celebrated, but also you've got people for you, you've got people against you.

did you ever have times that you wish that you were unknown or did you always embrace it? 

Stefan Sagmeister: ​

I would think that having worked in the beginning of the studio with actual stars, these big rock stars, meaning some very big like Mick Jagger, but even let's say people like David Byrne or Lou Reed, I became quite acquainted with, you know,the big disadvantages of fame. And actually the best thing I've ever heard about it recently, Paul Simon said in a documentary, [00:19:00] and he said, fame, it's a little bit of it is fantastic and a lot of it will kill you. And

I really, I really thought that was so true. And of course, as a designer. All you can possibly get is a little bit. So I found this to be most of, almost all of the time, actually advantageous. I've seen incredible disadvantages of proper fame when it came to rock stars. somebody like the Stones, they can't go on the street. they have to literally live as included life. We couldn't even do a photo shoot on the street. It would cost. hundreds of thousands of pounds because he would have to, lock everything off, security, blah, blah, blah, blah. and I think there are some people who actually enjoy that sort of life, but I also knew that I would not. And, I think the itsy bitsy little [00:20:00] design fame is actually mostly appreciable. And when it come back to that question, was I under pressure when my students, had that exhibition? And yeah, I think, I was. I mean, I definitely remember at least once, possibly twice, threatening them with canceling the whole thing because I felt I was not in Salzburg the whole time. I came and went. And so whenever to come back. After not having been there for two or three weeks and nothing was done, like basically the work still looked exactly the same that when I left three weeks earlier, I felt like, okay, this is not going to work and I'm not going to get embarrassed by doing a terrible show. I'm not sure if I really had my embarrassment in mind. More sort of like, I think in general, and I still feel like this to this day, I just don't see a lot [00:21:00] of value in doing a bad show. Like the first show that we did in China, now, four or five months ago, just I didn't feel was up to par. And if I would have a choice, I'd rather wouldn't have done it at all. Because I feel that, Something that's good just has the chance to make a real impression. Something that's mediocre doesn't. So why do the work if it's not gonna make an impression anyway, if it's not gonna do anything?

Radim Malinic: Would you say you set your standards really high? Because I know you said once that you got sort of mainstream taste,

Stefan Sagmeister: I

Radim Malinic: but what you're describing, obviously, your work is perceived asabove mainstream, and when you talk about your show and you think, it wasn't potentially worth having it because it wasn't exactly to your standards.

As I said to you in a pre conversation, a friend of mine sent me actually a picture from the show saying, Hey, look, it's Stefan's show. And he liked it. And obviously he didn't know anything that [00:22:00] obviously you know. And, and sometimes it's our subjective point of view of our lives and our work that trip us up.

 I think we are always our worst critics. we always want everything to be absolutely spotless and perfect, yet you show it to the regular public and they would not know anything at all.

Obviously to them that's fantastic and amazing. So has that ever changed? Or has your quest for quality always been consistent? Did you ever let shit slide? I think that's the question.

Stefan Sagmeister: Yeah. No, I think let stuff slide. No,

no, absolutely. Yeah. And, It's a big question. even now I sometimes realize, let's say when we do exhibitions in a commercial gallery and we have 20 pieces up there and I have my clear favorites, like I know which five I think are really good and which five are maybe on the bottom. And then if somebody buys one of the bottoms right away, I'm sort of, I find it [00:23:00] interesting, and specifically when it's a piece where I wasn't quite sure, should I include it or should I maybe throw it out? Maybe this is just not, quite up to par. So I get, I actually, that has the possibility to confuse me, and at the same time, I find that on those occasions, and they are not all the time. But on those occasions when I work as long on a piece or a show or a single piece as I can, where I feel, okay, I'm not a hundred percent sure if this is good, but this is how good I can make it right now. this is the edge of my abilities. Most of the time, other people like it too. And this is really what I also mean, this mainstream taste, when I think, okay, this is about as good as I can do it, then it's more, in many people's eyes, it also [00:24:00] works. but I have not done this all the time,​

I've definitely let stuff slide or you know, stuff. went out where I still felt, hmm, I'd wish I would have another week to really massage this.

Or, think there were also times when I just felt, okay, enough of this, I have to get rid of this stuff now.

even though I felt it, need some more work. Also interesting,

I give you an example of where I definitely felt, I don't know if it's good, but this is the edge of my abilities, which was really our first book, the Made You Look book. And that book came out in the year 2000, means it is now 24 years old, which is, for a design book, that's at least a hundred years. as far as its age is concerned, and even though definitely some work in there looks [00:25:00] dated, no doubt about it, and it should look dated, I'm meaning ultimately, this is graphic design, but it's still in print. It's still being reprinted and I still get a, I still get a check every year from the publisher, not the very end. big one, but it's still being done. And I'm, absolutely 100 percent convinced the reason that is so is because at the time, 25, almost 25 years ago, we did put that much love and care into it. And so it's, has that longevity.

Radim Malinic: I think that's a valid point when you talk about spending time on it, when you said love and care, because things that are chiseled, things that have spent time that the people actually agonize over the detail do actually last, they actually stand strong don't expire. 

Because of course we buy books on. Creatives who were,alive hundreds of years ago. they can't tell us about their regrets of, not painting the [00:26:00] sunflowers in the way they did.

so when you moved to New York, How did you find New York as opposed to, Austria? did you feel like you were on a sort of endless holiday? Cause obviously when you go somewhere on holiday, everything sounds better, everything tastes better. what was the effect of the city on you?

Stefan Sagmeister: I just loved it. I loved it. Being here as a student, when it was a very different city to what it is now, it was, quite dangerous. It was cheap.it was, exciting in a matter that I think appeals very much to me. to a boy from Austria as a student because everything was like in the movies, I'm glad though that I myself have no big nostalgia for that time now because I'm sure if he would have stayed that way, I ultimately would have left because that level of danger surrounding you was fun for a couple of years. and doable for a couple of years, but wasn't really a sustainable [00:27:00] way of living a life. So I'm very glad that it changed. it's when I came back from Hong Kong, it was already clearly in better shape than it was when I left it. And, basically has in the meantime grown up with me.

I think that at the time, you know, I come from a very pretty. Austrian village, not village, town on a lake, within the beginnings of the Alps, quite pretty, very well to do, quite cultured with a great museum of contemporary art and a big music festival, huge opera festival and classic music festival, so a quite huge museum of contemporary art. a town that you would be hard pressed to find in the United States, because there is no such thing as a small town with that much cultural offerings. But because I grew up in a small town, I was always gravitating to big cities. Even very young, I went [00:28:00] to Zurich and Munich, and then it was clear I'm going to study in Vienna, which was much further away than, let's say, Innsbruck, which would have also been possible, or Graz. And When I had this opportunity to study in New York, I basically loved it right away, like a real, like a logo of a metropolis. And because of my time in Hong Kong, turned out to be quite regional, so I had a chance to do some stuff in Bangkok and in Singapore and in Kuala Lumpur and Jakarta. I got to know other big cities, other big, metropolises. Hong Kong definitely would qualify as one itself. And it became very clear that New York is offering much more of the things that are interesting to me than those other cities in Asia would. I was quite clear that I would want to return to. New York [00:29:00] and I came here on a wedding and then T Ball offered a job and that was it. It was like, yeah, absolutely. I would love to work for my favorite design company at the time in New York. And I took a big pay cut because my position in Hong Kong was very commercial and it paid very So it, I think my check was cut into a third. from what it was in Hong Kong, and, it was still very influential for me to be around Tibor. But then he actually wanted to dedicate all of his time to Colors Magazine, which he had co founded and moved to Rome. And then I basically had no other choice than to open my own space anyway. 

Radim Malinic: Did it feel a bit daunting that you took a two thirds of a pay cut, Tebow asked you to join him, then Tebow left, and then you're in New York, which luckily is now in a better shape, as you said, but all of a sudden, you had to stand on your own feet. Again, was it [00:30:00] a pressure? Was it exciting?

How did it feel? Because obviously now you've got the freedom to actually steer your destiny in the way you want. So that comes with those questions like, Okay, you're in New York. You've not been there for more than,now what, six or seven months after left and a regular question will come to mind.

Like, how did you get work? What did you do? Obviously, like you've had those connections and obviously you've something obviously been happening, but how do you set up a business, in New York from scratch, because you actually have to do 

Stefan Sagmeister: was exciting.

not so much daunting And the reason was because when Tibor said he's going to move to Rome, I was not disappointed. I had to come back to New York for Tibor, but working there wasn't quite what I had in mind. I loved being around Tibor. But Thibaut basically had brought me there to run a company, which I was ready to do. But I think he didn't quite [00:31:00] know how to let me run it and I didn't know how to take it from him. But when I basically in Hong Kong had started a design group under the wings of an ad agency. But this was my group. I hired everybody.

I made decisions about clients. I made decisions. decisions about how much we should charge. So I really ran that thing. at M1 company at Tibor's place, I was more like a senior designer, which I wasn't quite ready to go back to, Also, I think from a purely, do I want to spend my day point of view?

Because for me, I could not really design the whole day. Like I can design a couple of hours. on a good day, maybe four, and then I have to do something else. so in Hong Kong, this was a good mix for me. I would design in the morning and, then meet clients, whatever, do, check the finances, do all [00:32:00] of that easier stuff in the afternoon. And so having already done that in Hong Kong, the idea for me to run a small design studio here didn't seem that daunting, also because ultimately, even as a student, all my clients were not design studios, they were real clients. So I had to, send bills to them, send estimates, so I had some experience in how to do that. And I felt like when it dawned on me that I could open a small studio that would keep small, but would really specialize in the music industry, like ultimately do album covers, that was my dream as a 16 year old of why to become a designer. I just felt, oh, this, like, I felt a very warm feeling in my belly.

I felt like this is exciting. I really would love to [00:33:00] do that. And I felt it probably wouldn't need much,you know, I could do this with an assistant, maybe two. this wouldn't need to be a gigantic operation or so. And also that felt very good, having had a pretty small group. in Hong Kong, we were about five or six. But having felt very comfortable with running a small group. a small design group. So this just felt very good. And then, to use the second part of your question, how do you go about this? in the States, of course, it's very easy. You incorporate from a legal point of view. You just incorporate, in my case, as an S corporation. it costs a thousand bucks, so that's very easy to do. and then how do you find clients? This was, of course, the more difficult part. It's a lot of work. specifically how to find music clients. And so what I did was I found out who is the [00:34:00] creative services person at the record company, because, you know, this was 93, which was pre internet time.

this was not something you could Google,all that stuff didn't exist. So this was quite a piece of work to figure out who are the record companies, who is the person responsible there. And I found that a good number of them were in New

York. Most of them were in Los Angeles.

So I did a trip to Los Angeles,sending mails beforehand. And because I had worked at Emman company, which at the time was very prominent and I had a fantastic, reputation. I could definitely get a meeting. So I met up with the record companies in Los Angeles. I met up with the ones in New York. And I had a portfolio that at that point had two album covers in it. I had done one album cover for Yellow Magic Orchestra, this is Ruichi Sakamoto, at M& M Company, and I had [00:35:00] done another one in Hong Kong, and the rest of it was all other kind of work. But the work was fine, and the record label, sort of the overall reaction after the meeting was, this is good, we're going to give you chops. But then ultimately, no chops came about. And I did manage on that front to do an album cover where I knew the singer. There was a New York rock band that played CPGB, sort of an underground rock band, called HB Zinker, that had an Austrian singer who I knew. and we did an album, we did a cover for them, and that cover got nominated for a Grammy.

It didn't win, but it got nominated for a Grammy, and that made the difference, because the creative services people at the album, at the record labels, do of course follow the Grammys, and they thought, ah, he [00:36:00] doesn't just have it in the portfolio, he can actually see it through. that it actually works even for an independent labels. And then after that, the jobs came in. And in the meantime, I also did non music jobs, that I got introduced to through M& M company. One that I got introduced to by a, friend of mine that I had studied with at Pratt's, who is a product designer, and it was a toilet seat that she had designed and she needed typography for the remote control for the toilet seat. And then we got more from that client, the Japanese bathroom company. And number three was a little campaign for sweet jeans stores that my brother opened in Austria. So ultimately, while I tried to get music jobs, those three were the first jobs that I actually got in the studio, [00:37:00] all of them through people I knew. And I think that if anybody who is listening, who is thinking of opening a design studio, I think that's the way to do it. Meaning, that you would ultimately think of every single person in your surrounding and what you could possibly help them with your design abilities, and then write to them, send them something, do something for them, get to meet them, offer them. I think that's the best way to do it.

Radim Malinic: I absolutely agree because proves the power of, meaningful connections. 

you mentioned at the beginning or throughout the conversation that you dealt with your fame by being surrounded by people like Brian Eno and others. And I think it says that, you are an average of the five people that you hang out with. So I think having that start in New York and sort of going after the musical work.

Obviously set you in the world that you surrounded yourself with [00:38:00] something that you wouldn't get in Austria, something that, didn't exist, but from other sort of cities. 

Stefan Sagmeister: Oh, there's no doubt that the studio got well known because the fame of our clients rubbed up on us. meaning no doubt about it. Yeah. was the case for sure. But it's, meaning we haven't done an album cover in 20 years easily. so clearly I think that really helped. us to be known within the industry for sure. And, I hope that in the meantime, or I also see that, we've done so many other things, the exhibitions to the film to whatever, to furniture that I think that, this is sortlike more in the background now.

Radim Malinic: because didn't you have in your creative life a different sort of, almost like check stops to thinking like, okay, Enough of music, enough of this, because the variety, I think, in designer's life is that the ability to pivot, you can pretty much [00:39:00] reinvent your career as often as you want, because I think when we launch our businesses, when we launch our careers, like we want to hang on the thing that's coming to us and never want to change, whereas we find ourselves getting to the pinnacle of what we actually want to achieve, only to find ourselves unhappy.

And obviously you quite famously did a lot of big body of work on unhappiness. Because personally, only found out obviously true concept of your movie just recently, but I built my studio to the point where I absolutely always desired to have it. I had the clients, I had the work, we had the money, it looked great.

It was busy. And I was desperately unhappy.

if we had a second child, like it was, the life was chaos. And it's like, why is it that it hits us at the point when we least expect it, that we should be celebrating, we are celebrated, everything's working. We've actually achieved what we wanted to achieve.

Yet we seem to suffer with that [00:40:00] universal. over the hill kind of decline of happiness going, why, how, what, I think we, none of us, as you famously did, it's like you've worked on, so many different methods of trying to actually be happy, but let's talk about the element of achieving what you wanted to achieve and then realizing what next.

Stefan Sagmeister: Well, I think that Danny Gilbert at Harvard talks quite, educatedly about this, because the frontal lobe in our brain is the least, developed part of the brain, as opposed to, let's say, the reptile brain,very much in the back. And because of planning is in the front low, we are actually quite bad at planning, or in this case specifically, we're very bad in knowing what will make us happy in the future. He actually did a study, a little bit convoluted, but ultimately still with a quite clear result where he [00:41:00] could show that If you sit and think, what will make me happy in the future? And then, make lists and just try to figure it out yourself. Your results are going to be less accurate than if you ask a stranger who does that sort of thing of what you're thinking of doing and interview that stranger about his or her life and how that actually looks like that thing that you're thinking about doing. That the accuracy in talking to the stranger is more precise than trying to figure it out in your own frontal lobe. And I think that, I I've seen that with numerous rock stars that ultimately wind up doing something for charity. And I think many people feel oh, the stupid rock star, now they're like trying to lift their profile [00:42:00] by doing something charity, which in most cases is not the case at all.

I mean, I thinkthat Sting almost ruined his career by doing charitable things. what happens is that, You finally achieved your life goal, which is being a rock star and playing stadiums in front of 50, 000 people. And fuck, it doesn't make you as happy as you thought it would. I'm sure it gives you quite some adrenaline jolts, but it clearly doesn't put you into that Nirvana stage that many people think rock stars do. ought to be in with that much admiration going towards them evening after evening on tour. And I think that a part of that is really happening to all of us. I think that in many ways, unbeknownst to that, I was able to circumvent [00:43:00] a part of it, not all of it, but a part of it, simply by this ingenious idea to go on sabbatical every seven years. So pretty much all the time when I feel this is working, this is really now we're getting into this as I was with the music world in the first seven years of the studio, as I was with a more NGO Good Client World in the second part of the studio, as I was with the Creating Exhibitions for Beauty and Happiness, but also with the film in the third part of the studio. And I'm about to go on sabbatical next week. I'm leaving on Wednesday for Madrid, Guadalajara and Buenos Aires, four months each for a full year. And I think that just being thrown up, thrown out of my regular daily movement, thinking [00:44:00] patterns is avoiding, not all of it, but a good part of this, and it's definitely is, is. the chief reason for the different directions that the studio took. I could easily see that we might still be doing CD covers otherwise and wondering why business is so bad.and because we all, me for sure, but I think many of us tend to get stuck in the thing that we do and do it over again because that's also easier for us.

It's much more difficult to really change. And, I think that these sabbaticals allowed for that change, allowed to even think, the main reason why I said in the year 2000, actually, maybe I've done enough album covers. Maybe it should be something different. There's other interesting things out there. Maybe we'll stop doing album covers. It was the sabbatical. I would have never [00:45:00] had the wherewithal to stop Autobots. And now looking back, purely now from a work perspective, most, but not all, but most of the projects that I now think were worthwhile to do, like the exhibitions on happiness or beauty, but, like this whole series about, things I've learned in my life so far, but many others came out of thinking that was done in the sabbatical. and probably would have never seen the light of day without the sabbatical. So it's sort of,almost a little bit scary looking back and saying, I would have done none of the work that's now dear to my heart. 

Radim Malinic: With your quite well documented sabbaticals, and obviously the one that's coming now, I think you said that you were worried and almost once lied that you were going to going away and pretending you were not going away because you thought that people will, clients will [00:46:00] desert you and the business will close I think it's our survival instinct because we are almost preconditioned to think, okay, there's a timer.

I need to pay my mortgage. I need to pay my rent. I need to pay. And it all happens in 30 day cycles, like we don't feel like we actually get a respite from all of this, like this is the life we've chosen, this is the life we've been given, and that's how the society and, economics works.

So, with the first sabbatical, I mean, you've opened your studio in 93, you went on sabbatical in 2000. That to some studios is just the beginning, how did you feel? Did it change your perception of, work? Because I know personally from taking semi sabbatical from design work and focusing on other activities that it froze you almost physically.

And it throws you literally, like you're used to showing up for work every day and then you're not. Obviously if you do it in Bali, maybe hopefully that's a different, a thing, but how did you feel during every sabbatical? did it have a gradually smaller effect on you or?

Stefan Sagmeister: Well, I was definitely scared, the first one, very, very [00:47:00] much so about, of all those things that you said, all the clients will leave, they will never come back, it will be seen as unprofessional, all that stuff. That ultimately did not happen. People did not think it was unprofessional. Clients thought, would be offended, they would love to do it, too. I, of course, am working in the sabbaticals, meaning I'm trying out stuff like it's, I'm not the type of person who'd love to sit on a beach, which I didn't, not even in Bali, not at all. Like I was, because I like to work, specifically like to work when there is, no goal, like that all the goals are set by me, that it's, you know, I can literally just,I made a list things that I'm interested in and then put that list into hourly, five hourly, two hourly pieces in the schedule. So that's to really get going or to make sure that I would be doing the things that I actually am interested in.the first time I was definitely scared, the second [00:48:00] time I was not, because it had clearly proven its worth.and the third one I'm not scared at all now. I'm meaning it starts next Wednesday, but I'm not scared about it at all. Zero. And it's also meaning I have to say now this time it's also quite a bit different because,

 the last five years I've already been doing whatever I wanted to do, basically the last five years, we did not accept any commercial or promotional or jobs that advertise anything. And, we've been pursuing this whole, long term thinking idea or this idea that if you look at the world from the long term, it looks different. in the exact opposite as the short term. it's, I think that this will also render this sabbatical somewhat different because some of those projects I will still pursue.

So it's, the rules for the sabbaticals are pretty loose. I [00:49:00] think the only one that is sort of steadyis that it should be different from the ones before. So obviously these are different cities. And I also do it for the first time with my partner. So my partner is going to come, which also render it very, very differently. So we'll see.

Radim Malinic: Do you think that sabbaticals with their magical powers can sometimes emulate The work career, the work path, because obviously you offset in the constraints, let's say the client projects. So now you do exhibitions and stuff, and now you go slightly looser concept, that sometimes, we need that freedom and limitation.

 Because the concept of happiness, I think once in your talks, you used a quote from Stumbling on Happiness, when you said, these days we can live where you want to live. We can marry who we want to marry, speak the language we want to speak.

Obviously, like we actually have almost devoid ourselves in most cases, and that's not applicable to everyone on this planet, but. As humans, [00:50:00] obviously, we function on challenges, obviously, we've got this sort of survival instinct. We need challenges, we need sort of problems to solve, and then when you actually remove the problem, and obviously you're pursuing more or less happiness.

Would that, do you ever actually think that sabbatical might not deliver?

Stefan Sagmeister: Well, that's why I actually put my own limitations on it. if I would just basically. start the sabbatical with, okay, now I'm not pursuing anything and I can do whatever I want. I think I would get lost. I don't think that this much limitless freedom is easy to deal with. Definitely not for me, but it might not be easy to deal with for most people. even meaning if you look at pretty much any artist out there that ultimately she or he could do whatever they want, but they all [00:51:00] set their own limitations in order to be able to work within them, and here and there break them and go beyond them, but ultimately I think we guardrails to make anything worthwhile. And you see it even with new technologies when they come out and offer an incredible amount of possibilities. Most of the work that's done in them, you saw that in the first couple of In early Photoshop was crap because everybody sort of like uses the easy filters. Everything looks the same. The work is terrible. Or, you see a similar situation right now in AI. I'm sure that there will be unbelievably fantastic work done in AI once we figure out certain limitations. Or once we build our own limitations and work within those. But,right now prompting, pink dinosaurs, is [00:52:00] not going to create anything of real value.

Radim Malinic: I think there's a whole another conversation to talk about the future of creativity, 

But I still want to sort circle back for one last question on this topic is how do you define happiness now? Your personal happiness or the concept of happiness and has your perception of happiness changed?

Stefan Sagmeister: I mean, I would say the easiest way to define it would be by time frame. So you have something like very short happinesses, like you can last a lifetime.part of a second,the happy moment or possibly can last a couple of seconds. Like even an orgasm would be part of that. Then you would have something like that's closer to satisfaction. That would be. having a fantastic Sunday afternoon on the couch with the paper, just feeling good with that little freedom of the Sunday. And so that's mid, term happiness. And then you have the long term happiness that could last a [00:53:00] lifelong, like Finding what you're good at in life and being able to work within that.

That's much closer to meaning. And those things really have very little to do with each other. an orgasm is very different from finding the meaning of life. but

they're still big title of happiness. And I would say the conclusion that I got after having worked on that film for eight years and the exhibition was one that ultimately Jonathan Haidt had already written in his book that I knew all along, understood. but because I had just read it in a book, could not really implement in a meaningful way in my life. And so what he says and what I really found to be true is that it's not really possible to pursue happiness, but what is possible is I can look at all my relationships, the [00:54:00] close ones and the far ones, and I can see if I can lift them up onto a somewhat higher level, maybe get rid of the bad ones, support the good ones, and then here and there, when I don't expect it, little pieces of happiness might occur that come out from in between those relationships.

And I can try to do the same with my work, and I can try to do the same with something that is bigger than me, could be, politics, could be some charity, could be something about the environment. And if I'm able to do that, my overall level of happiness, like those little pieces of happiness that come out from in between will come out more often, but not through direct pursuit. And I found that to be actually really true. [00:55:00] And I found that Here and there, I was able to do exactly like in my work, say, okay, I've done enough of these kind of jobs, I have nothing against promotional or advertising jobs, but simply, I felt that I've done my share of that in my life, and I make a decision, I am not going to do them anymore, even if very lucrative, if. Very high profile jobs are offered. I will give them to people that I know, I will recommend somebody else. And I will pursue these things, that I find more interesting now. And I can say that, ultimately, that decision led to itsy bitsy pieces of happiness coming out from in between more often.

Radim Malinic: I managed to sneak in a little segue to my talk. I did a talk just before you did your conversation with Ben Tallon at our festival. I was on the [00:56:00] stage about two hours prior, like earlier in the day, My talk is very heavily skewed towards sort of mental health and how do we metabolize this.

And my segue was that, Stefan said my story will be here and he'll tell you now is better. But I will tell you that's also heavier than ever before. Because Would you agree that our perception and obsession and awareness of happiness is so much more heightened that sometimes you feel like you have to chase your happiness because people ask you, are you happy?

Are you doing this? 

Stefan Sagmeister: Well, 

sure. 

Radim Malinic: like there's a lot of societal pressure on this, on this 

Stefan Sagmeister: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think there is, quite a good number of material about that pressure to be happy, specifically in the United States, that ultimately makes many people unhappy. Or, I would think that the entire, self improvement industry, in many cases is very flawed. because they promise things that they can't hold. many of the books that I also read, I'm meaning I [00:57:00] read probably a hundred in gearing up towards the film, have on their back, cover some sort of text that in some way or another makes you believe that reading this book actually will lead in some way to greater happiness, which it almost doesn't. never can deliver, not because the content of the book is wrong necessarily, but because your connection to that content as a reader of the book is just too loose, it's just not, intense enough, which is why a therapist Giving you the same content as the book has a much bigger chance of actually being successful simply because you have a bigger connection to the therapist in the same way that a personal trainer might be more successful in you losing weight than if you just Buy two baits and try them out at home.

Radim Malinic: I think it sort of expects a lot of accountability because yeah, the blurbs on the back of the books are not always written [00:58:00] by the author. It's written by the publisher in a way the book. So obviously what's in the book, obviously it requires a level of discipline to actually go through it and implement it.

And that's why personal trainers in the gym obviously got much more successful in earning money because actually you already have to go and be accountable to someone. 

So on the concept of happiness and the future, do you have a vision of yourself where you want to be after when you come back from a sabbatical and carry on?

Stefan Sagmeister: No, I'll let the sabbatical happen, and I'll see what kind of influences will come out of it. But it's, in this case, I can really leave it fairly open because the past five years have been very good five years and I have thought that the kind of work I was doing is the kind of work that I'm supposed to be doing right now at my age, at where I am in my life. So I could easily see doing more of the same. or if it [00:59:00] presents itself doing a version of that or possibly even something totally different. I'd be surprised though in this case because I feel there is still so much negative messaging in media, both traditional and social out there. And I don't expect that to change anytime soon, that the idea of putting something against that or with it, so that it's not just the whip that is offered, but also a little bit of the carrot. still seems to be worthwhile and possibly meaningful. So,I'll see.

Radim Malinic: I wish you safe travels. And obviously lot of, happy times in a way to see what happens. 

Stefan Sagmeister: Perfect.

Radim Malinic: Thank 

you 

Stefan Sagmeister: much. it was a pleasure.

Thank you. 

Radim Malinic: Thanks for coming. ​

USBPre2-7: I thank you for listening to this episode of mindful [01:00:00] creative podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions, or even suggestions. So please get in touch via the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, write and manage editing. An audio production was massively done by Neil McKay from 7 million bikes podcast. And the theme music was written and produced by Jack James. Thank you. 

And I hope to see you on the next episode.