A short bonus episode showcasing a few stand out moments from this week's guest interview with Robert Hodgin ~ 

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[00:00:00] Hey, welcome to another bonus episode of the Daring Creativity Podcast. I'm back to unpack some of the gems from this week's conversation, pulling out those moments that deserve a second look, and digging deeper into what makes them special. This week I spoke to Robert Hodgin, an artist, and had a research and development at Rare Volume, a company specializing in data visualization and immersive installations that make technology feel human.

 This episode published a few days ago was titled, dare to Question. Excellent. And it is packed with deep thoughts and observation of what it's like to be at the intersection of art and science. if you haven't checked out a full interview yet, let me start with these moments that stood out from our conversation.

Rob: So I seemed to always be bouncing back and forth between the two. And I think that's why I like visualizing data in an artistic way because, it, it's not uncommon for, Data visualizers to [00:01:00] be sort ofin the, science bucket where they're not really too concerned about the aesthetics. They just want the data to show up on graphs and be readable. and, I think there's, there's more opportunity there to present the data in a way that feels more art forward. and that seems to be how I spent a lot of my time lately, is just finding interesting data sets and then finding non-traditional things to do with them.

This moment captures the core tension that defines Robert's entire career and his creative philosophy. He's identified a gap in the market that exists precisely because most people stay firmly in one camp or the other.

Data scientists prioritize function, artists prioritize form. But in Robert's case, he recognized that the intersection where both concerns are equally weighted, it is where truly innovative work happens. what makes this particularly powerful is that he's not claiming to have solved the art science divide.

He's still bouncing back and [00:02:00] forth. We'd suggest an ongoing dialogue rather than a settled position. This resonates with anyone who's ever felt like they don't quite fit in the traditional categories. His discomfort with choosing became his competitive advantage. For listeners struggling with their own identity across disciplines, this validates that you don't have to pick a side.

The middle ground can be the most fertile creative territory.

It's, it, it's gotten to the point where if I hear the phrase Art Forward, I'm gonna assume that, it's not gonna be, and they already know what they wanna see. They just, they're, they're too afraid to dictate it during the call, I guess. there's been some projects that, that were fantastic. we did I think our first project as rare volume was to do, content for Samsung for their flagship store in the Meatpacking district. The content was on a, like a three story video wall. It was huge. And they stayed out of our way. We got to execute our vision almost [00:03:00] to the letter with minor notes. because what they wanted at the end of the day was art. They wanted big, beautiful moving art on their big beautiful three story video wall.

Rob: And they didn't need to throw the Samsung logo up on everything and, you know, dictate brand guidelines. They wanted us to do sort of alove letter to New York City as viewed through like a Samsung lens. And so that, that was an example of a project that I think, is, you know, is up there with ones that I feel most strongly about.

 This is perhaps the most universally relatable quote for anyone working in the creative industry.

Robert has identified a psychological game that plays out in a countless client relationships. The performance of trust and mask, unwillingness to actually relinquish control. what makes this observation so valuable is his pattern recognition. After enough projects, he's learned certain phrases, art forward, or, we love what you do, or,we'll stay out of your way.

They actually have become red [00:04:00] flags rather than green lights, and this is a hardwar wisdom that takes years of frustration to acquire. he's essentially teaching us listeners read between the lines of client briefs and spot the warning signs early. I'm sure that some of these words like, we love what you do and we'll stay outta your way.

 they're not unique to what Robert is doing with rare volume. Those are actually universally recognized red flags for anyone anywhere in the world because I can tell you personally how many times, you know, when someone said, Hey, just do what you do.

We'll love it. And they didn't. So. When you think about it, a deeper insight here is about the nature of creative collaboration itself. The true creative freedom requires genuine trust, and genuine trust is rare. Most clients want the safety of someone else's vision with the appearance of taking a creative risk.

Robert's frustration isn't petty. It's about a waste of creative potential when [00:05:00] talented people are hired to execute someone else's mediocre ideas. This quote for young creatives, this moment is a permission to value their own judgments and to recognize when a project set up is doomed from start.

Rob: Yeah. Well, I, I should, I should offer that, that wasn't my quote. It was what was told to me by one of our employees, Luca, who is wise beyond his years. I had been working on, Creating these procedurally generated Japanese stone lanterns in Houdini. And it was a couple months in and it was starting to get to a point where I felt really excited about it 'cause I was, procedurally growing moss and all sort of the shady bits and, and making the surface look really weathered and cracked.

And, and it was a lot of fun. And then I would hit, you know, render and then go to sleep and I'd come back the next morning and see if it looked okay. And it was around that time that I thought, I wonder what mid journey would be able to do with this [00:06:00] prompt. So I typed in, you know, aged Japanese stone lantern, you know, moss, whatever, and immediately got back four beautiful Japanese stone lanterns of all different designs.

 And, made me angry. I didn't know what to think about this because the desire to continue working on my version of it evaporated. It's like, why would I, why would I spend the time now? When it's gonna be so easy to, to jump to the end. It's like reading the last page of a book. You don't then wanna read the book 'cause you know what happens.

 So Midjourney showed me the end of my journey for this particular project and it was really frustrating to me because, I was really excited by the project until I saw that AI can generate good results pretty quickly, without any of the struggles. So I remember sending Luca, a few of these midjourney outputs 'cause he had been paying attention to what I'd been working on.[00:07:00] 

And, I, I simply typed out the words, why bother? And he, he wrote me back this really lovely, statement about how we, we bother because we find value in bringing to life something that lives in our mind. And, and ended his statement by saying, if I threw away those mid journey images, nobody would care because they took no effort.

And things that take no effort are hard to value. And, that, that sort of set me straight hearing, hearing somebody say that somebody who's half my age, he's 25 or 26, he talked me off of an interesting ledge because it made me realize that I need to, appreciate the journey and not be too focused on the destination because the journey is the fun part.

So a while ago I had a conversation with the amazing Burham RAs who picked up on a quote in Robert Hudgens talk at Paradiso, and the quote 

 And he said, [00:08:00] things that take no effort are hard to value. And of course, I had to ask Robert about the situation because it's so simple. It now makes sense. When you think about what you've seen today, or what you've seen, some AI wizard create.

And shared as if it's next masterpiece on LinkedIn or wherever. It's hard to value because you can start questioning the process. You start questioning, uh, what's actually, you know, gone into the process. Because in in Robert's moment, he really captures the most important creative question of our current moment.

What is the value of human effort when AI can instantly generate equivalent results In our conversation, Robert, talk about two month journey with Houdini versus mid journey's four second output that crystallized the crisis that every creative person is potentially experiencing right now. 

What makes this moment profound is [00:09:00] the emotional honesty. you need to listen to the conversation where Robert talked about how he was trying to create realistic moss and create these Japanese lanterns and struggled with it and, you know, head render and waited for the outcome the next day, and it wasn't quite right.

And then when he prompted this into my journey, he got four perfectly amazing, uh, res. But he told me that it felt kind of like a end of the book, like end of the story, like the final frame. It was end of the journey. And, um, there was no effort. It was like, what do you do with it? 

 because the quote, yeah, things that take no effort are hard to value, should be a reminder to anyone who is questioning the value of ai Should be. Questioning client's expectations if you know they love what you do, but why don't you use ai? Those are usually people who will not value what you do, even though it, it was a lot of [00:10:00] effort that's gone into it, so.

I just love that moment because it just summarizes the whole idea of the episode. The episode was titled that to Question Excellence and there is time and place, and there will always be time and place to strive for excellence and to create extraordinary stuff that is result of, you know, month long processes.

Because we justified a time with something that is out of this world rather than, um. Regurgitated mid journey render.

Thank you for joining me on this episode. I hope you check out a full interview with Robert Hudgin and I look forward to seeing you on the next one.

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