A short bonus episode showcasing a few standout moments from this week's guest interview with Freddie Ost and Erick Kockrum from Snask  ~

Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic

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Radim: Welcome to the first bonus episode of the of the Daring Forever podcast. Yes, I do change the name of my podcast every year to make it more complicated for myself and everyone else, and including you. I just prefer to encapsulate the theme within a new title rather than going with something that might not be exactly, applicable anymore.

Anyway, as you will hear a million times this year, The new season of the podcast is to dance in tandem with the release of my new book titled, yes, you guessed it, Daring Forever. My new book,is easily, in my opinion, the best book I've written and put together, and I can't wait to share it with you and the world when it comes out in October.

I have to be honest, I've asked a few people for a, a advanced preview, and my good friend Ben Talon called it a predictably wonderful read. So yeah, I think it's gonna be good. Anyway, it's not me boasting. I'm just too excited. For this season of my podcast, currently planned at 50 conversations, I'm gonna try to go deeper, wider, and 

Whatever other dimension I can find to explore my guests' stories. So just like the last season, I'm going to do a bonus episode of each week. the one where I unpack some of the gems from the week's conversation, pulling out those moments that deserve a second look 

And dig deeper in what makes them special. This week I spoke to Freddie and Erik from Snask. As you might know them, they are a Stockholm-based creative studio that spent nearly 20 years, being gloriously and unapologetically themselves.

They are designers, directors, provocateurs, and somewhere in between a rock band and a branding agency. In this conversation, we talked about why making enemies is actually the most logical brand strategy there is, how music became this blueprint for everything Snask does, and why the design industry desperately needs people brave enough to have an opinion.

This episode, published a few days ago, was titled Dare to Make Enemies and Gain Fans." and we talk very much about the two decades of building entirely something genuine and rare, which is a studio with a manifesto it actually lives by. If you haven't checked out the full episode, let me share with you these four standout moments

Freddie: I think it was very early, like second year of existence, we were starting to have people thinking like, "Oh," saying stuff about us, or, "They're young and naive, and they think they can do whatever they want," and blah, blah, blah. And we realized that we can't and, or will never want to please everyone. And especially what we do comes from value-based opinions that we stand for, then I think it's good that people then oppose themselves against it.

If they don't agree with our values, that's what they should. And also in the same way, people will then also like what we say because they agree with it. And the nightmare for us would be generic in the middle, and no one thinks anything about us. And I think that's, that's what we believe in with branding as well, that brands need to have opinions and stand up for them.

And if they do this, they will get enemies, but they will also get fans. And if you have 1% of the world as your fans, you will be extremely successful as a company. So people are afraid of this, but it's not logical. It's not a logical thought. they think it's too risky even though it's not.

Radim: I've started the preview of the episode, with Freddie's, monologue about the fact that for them it would be a nightmare if there was generic thing in the middle, because at the beginning of their career, generally I've, I've-- even if I've a reflection of mine or others, people doing incredible work at the very start, and then it turns left and right and never follows the straight path.

Whereas what I mean with this, for example, there was a studio, I think they're called Red, and they designed some of the Fatboy Slim work. They were doing incredible work. And then just I remember them doing brochures for some electric companies, like they didn't do the thing anymore. And if I got it wrong, Red Studio, I'm really sorry.

But it shows you the path that we are more rebellious at the very beginning and then drop off into more commercial world. And that's part of what the conversation was also with Eric and Freddy, about that part. But in the case of Snask, not only they managed to keep their rebellious side and their visual side and their s- signature style, but dialed it up.

They are absolutely at the forefront of having, branding studio, visual studio, filmmaking studio that does some of the most incredible work. And you know what? I'm so grateful that they do it, and they do it in their own stride and so well that it's so impressive to watch because they haven't lost their sight.

They haven't lost the sight of what they do, and they do it incredibly well. And in the shape of so many visual story making studios, they've been, doing something similar, and they have to change their style needlessly or needingly. yeah, I am so impressed with what Snask do because it's incredible craft, and they're showing that, if you believe in something, if you really wanna stand behind something, it's incredible.

So yeah, it's not for everyone, but as they say, as they adopted their, motto from Tibor Kalman, "If no one hates it, no one loves it."

Erik: And the only thing fighting this is capitalism. That's the problem. 

It's all about the money, and then we don't say what we want because then we're afraid that maybe the money won't come, 

 We don't get it, but in another way, we're just, doing what we are doing. I, I think it'sI think it's everyone's just, putting themself always in a context, and then they're like, "This is the structure of this world, and we have to adapt and behave this way." But, we stopped doing that a long time ago.

We have a company, Otherwise, we just, do things. We can invoice, and people can invoice us. That's great. Then we can do whatever we want, in terms of what we say and what we do. 

Radim: this one cuts deeper, right?

 in the view of my previous stand down moment that I picked, how many studios serve a client because that is almost the inevitable. that's what they can do because, we all need to pay mortgages from something, and sometimes is that easier choice the one that deserves to be signed off because, it's safe.

But I don't think that's always the truth because what Snask have just again, manifested and proved absolutely possible that there's no fear of consequences. you either are yourself or you're not, and that's quite hard to achieve. in their case, they avoid, creative awards.

They avoid anything corporate per se because it's helped them build a version of the business where financial pressure can't silence them. It's harder than it sounds in a way by, pursuing what you want and doing it in a way that you want, in a way that is potentially structured.

I know I keep repeating on the podcast, they're structured in a world, and it's a Rory Sutherland quote, where he says that the world is built by people who don't believe in magic. And when you look at Snask, they believe in magic, and they actually can make it happen.

Freddie: I think young people today have no clue what it means, like indie pop, indie rock. Today it's just pop or rock or whatever. But that was more like influences, everything from '70s rock to Oasis to, Beatles. I mean, a lot of what we created at Snask has been created from our inspiration from rock bands from Beatles interviews when they were lying in interviews, to reading biographies to, being on stage.

for us, we always wanted to speak last, and then we met a lot of speakers, designers, and they were like, " Oh, I, oh, I never want to speak last." because they think that the audience is tired then. But for us it's like the only thing you should aim for is to speak last. Everyone else is just pre-band, you know? For us, it comes from music or how we brand our company. It's like building this legend about our company or brand, like exactly like the Kiss has done, Rolling Stones, every band out there, Oasis. So a lot comes from there, I 

So this was really interesting insight from Freddie because I've got a different view on speaking slots, but maybe because I've got books to sell at events. But I prefer to go on as early as I can for personal, professional, commercial reasons because I like people fresh and excited, and I believe Mr.

Bingo does something similar. He just does the talk first and then sits on his stand, selling his, drawings and all sorts of stuff. but yeah, I'm loving the fact that the boys from Snask very much said, "Look, we are the headline band. We always wanna speak last. We wanna do this in a way that wakes people up even though they've been around for a whole day."

And the whole conversation transpired that they were inspired by the, the likes of Rolling Stones. The Rolling Stones would never be a warm-up act for anybody else. they would be always the last one to play. 

 I admire that about them because, 

their talks are always busy.

They're always well-received, and yeah, I just love the fact that, it's a small shift the mindset. look, we are the headline band, and we're gonna do that.

Erik: I think it's a bit of a lie a made-up thing that the humor doesn't transcend into different, cultures or worlds. it's I think it works more or less everywhere. like to, people wanna laugh, people wanna, hear funny things like that.

but then of course they can be completely ignorant around like,oh, if we have Westernized reference in the humor. like then of course people might not understand it in Japan or something because they didn't grow up with that thing, whatever it is that we're joking about.

So of course in terms of the work you need to be aware and not think that you are everything in the world, et cetera. but in terms of like just laughing and having fun, and sometimes it's more like that people are afraid.

Oh, no, that we don't think that we can't do that," but they, because they might be upset or, "We should not say this there," We heard that so many times, and every it's gone out anyways, it's been like a success. They're like, "Oh, wow, this actually worked," or, you We've also been contacted by companies from other parts of the world where things should not have worked, but they contact us because they've seen that work, and they're like, "We never get this here, so we want this."

Radim: So it's an interesting insight because I couldn't really see, and that, that's my honest observation, I couldn't really see too much of a sort of expressive humor in Snask work per se.

there is elements which are lighthearted and kitsch and interesting. But the more I got to speak to Freddy and Erik about what they do and how they do it opened my eyes to a really clever sense of humor and obviously the impressive use of color and impressive world-building that these guys do.

And what transpired for this, for this moment is just that Erik said, "You know what? Actually, s- humor does work everywhere if you do it right." You got different nations and different cultures that are differently wired as a society, and some cultures are expressively hilarious, some cultures are a lot more obviously, conservative, and how do you create a piece of work that speaks to everyone?

But you know what? What was really interesting to hear, that they get results across the board, across the different countries where, something comes up, they do it right, and they make the right impression on clients or new brands or new potential clients because their work is expressive. Again, it's a Snask style, even though, it's applicable to every, brand they work with because they can dial it up and they can move the needle when needed, but they always stay true to themselves.

What I loved about the whole conversation was the fact that these boys know what they want, and they still want it the same if not more than ever before, and I think, I can't just not generalize too much, but it's rare to have a moment like this where they can see their future so clearly, and I'm so proud that they exist because they show us all that, these things still work really well and exist.

So thank you for joining me on this bonus episode of the first Daring Forever, season podcast, and I look forward to seeing you next week with my conversation with Paula Marín Con.